Poly didn’t fix old problem

Lantern

New member
My partner, Kettle, and I are having a pretty big issue and I could use some perspective. For brief history, we’ve been together 9ish years and opened up two years ago. It’s been fairly uneventful, a few perused crushes that didn’t pan out and I made out with a friend, but that’s been about it for romantic dealings beyond our own relationship. For the most part, this switch has been a really good thing.

Back in the very beginning of our relationship Kettle was in a serious long distance relationship with a woman, Lens. He didn’t tell me about Lens when we started dating and when he fell for me and eventually broke it off with her, he didn’t tell her the real reason. Their arrangement was that he could date other women, just had to tell Lens if it got serious. Which in our case, it had. They’ve continued to be friends over the years and it’s always bothered me that he kept us both a secret from each other in the beginning and that she didn’t know the real story of their break up. He didn’t want to hurt her with it, but it seemed like it could affect the choice she made about going forward with their friendship. Basically it felt like she didn’t have all the relevant info and wasn’t a full willing partner in their friendship.

Fast forward and he makes friends with a woman, Pill. This was several years ago. She expressed an interest/attraction to him and he declined but they became friends. For the past few years, he’s been in almost daily contact with her, texting mostly articles and stuff back and forth. When he would visit our old city where she lives (we moved out of state three years ago) they would have coffee or beers. He maintained to me that he was not interested in Pill romantically, just pals. I didn’t think much of it because he had told me about crushes, spent time with women he was interested in, I thought we were doing pretty good on the whole relevant info getting shared thing.

Fast forward to two weeks ago and they had sex. I honestly wasn’t super surprised. Kettle’s threshold for when one has sex is lower than mine, sex with a casual pal is not weird for him- this difference in attitudes about sex has been part of the conversation. The thing that surprised me is that she doesn’t know who I am. He’s been in daily contact with her for years and never mentioned me. This includes some pretty deliberate sidestepping of information.

I am really hurt and mad about this and deeply bothered that this is a repeat of what happened with Lens (minus the falling in love part). He maintains still that he has no romantic intentions with Pill, that it was just pals having sex. But the fact that she didn’t know about me runs contary to how we were going to do poly- fully informed consent was important. And I’m also super hurt, so very hurt that he has this significant relationship where I was a straight up secret.

I asked him to come clean about me with Pill and Lens and give me some way to get a sense of what his relationship with Pill actually is. He wants to get a therapist, he says he’s as confused by this repeat pattern of hiding relationships. He wanted a therapists input on discussing with Pill and Lens, but making an appointment was dragging out and he finally sent the messages. His relationship with Pill was continuing like normal and it was making me crazy. I was refusing to sleep in the same bed with him while I was a secret and Ive basically moved into my art studio at this point.

I ended up getting into his text messages with Pill without permission. Which I feel really bad about. It was one of those scared enough to make a bad decision things. They’re mostly articles, some flirting back and forth, and some really serious sidestepping around mentioning me. Like, not totally direct lies, but only because she didn’t ask direct questions because his narrative was constructed as though he was single.

Pill took the news okay, overall. Apparently she was surprised and hurt, but in a day or two they were back to normal. Lens was really hurt and this may have ended their friendship. I feel sad for them both, but I also don’t want to be his secret anymore. Kettle has had this plan that Lens would come visit us and I’d get to meet her someday, I’ve always been baffled that this could mean I have to lie about our relationship to cover for him- I’m not that person. I think I’ve been pretty good at letting him manage his relationships with women he’s interested and such, but I’m not someone who can straight up lie about something I know to be important to someone.

So it’s been about two weeks since this mess began. We’ve slept in the same bed a bit, had sex twice, but mostly it’s been tense and painful. It’s been a hard year overall- other big stuff happened that’s just wore us both out mentally and emotionally- and now I’m feeling really stuck. These past two weeks, I’ve been hard on him and it’s made him withdrawal. I apologized, but it hasn’t helped. These past few days I’ve been trying to give us a break from the long tough talks, but with him withdrawing it feels like I’m apologizing for my feelings. So now I’m still hurt and he’s stonewalling me. He called a therapist several times this week, we’re hoping for guidance from that end for his own insight into this pattern of his and how to cope as a pair.

You guys seem like a a reasonable and thoughtful bunch and I’d really appreciate insight. I feel so stuck right now. We love each other deeply and there’s a lot about our values, interests, desires in life that match up so well. And I’m a family with him and his kids. It’s a relationship I don’t want to give up. At the same time, I don’t want to be in a relationship where I can’t trust him to be open with me and others about relevant info. I feel like I keep reading about “communication” and “building trust” but I don’t know what the mechanics of that looks like and what we’ve been doing is not producing good results...
 
..I don’t want to be in a relationship where I can’t trust him to be open with me and others about relevant info. I feel like I keep reading about “communication” and “building trust” but I don’t know what the mechanics of that looks like...

Really? You don't know how to build trust? I don't believe that. All along, you have known that you and Kettle were not building trust, so you do know how to do it, you're just not doing it. Not lying is the foundation of building trust and whether you want to be or not, you're deeply involved "in a relationship where I can’t trust him to be open with me and others about relevant info." No magical change is going to happen to Kettle by talking this over a few times with a therapist. And you can "work on your relationship" til you're exhausted, hoping that he will change and see the light, etc. etc. etc. but right now you are with someone who has a very messy way of going about multiple relationships. I'll add that you've got some messy stuff going on, as well, so this mess is not all Kettle's doing. I know that you'll get some good responses about how to proceed and possibly save your relationship, but my point is that you have to start by being honest with yourself that you're attracted to and deeply involved with someone who has some pretty significant issues with lying and hiding. Why have you stuck with this person for so long? It's important for you to think about that and recognize that this situation is about two things, not just about his behavior: 1. His lying and 2. Your attraction to this situation and to a person who can continually hide and lie to this degree. Why do you suppose that Kettle is so compelling to you?
 
I'm so sorry.

I don't even know what to say. :(

The thing with Lens sounded messy and the thing with Pill also sounds weird.

Basically it felt like she didn’t have all the relevant info and wasn’t a full willing partner in their friendship.

Doesn't sound like YOU get all the relevant info. You did not know until recently that he presented himself to Pill as single and she didn't even know you existed. I suspect the thing with Lens.... had or still has missing bits.

I feel so stuck right now. We love each other deeply and there’s a lot about our values, interests, desires in life that match up so well. And I’m a family with him and his kids. It’s a relationship I don’t want to give up.

I know. It's hard to think about a 9 year investment not actually being so hot or coming to a crossroads. It's tempting to keep it going because it HAS been an investment. But be careful of sunk cost fallacy, ok?

If you are going to try once more.... alright. But it cannot be like "same old song different day." He has to show he's really working at therapy and not just going through the motions.

I believe in second chances but it cannot be 100, 1000, 1 million second chances. You figure out your limit of tolerance and if things don't get better by that amount of time? You have to become ok walking away.

Rather than thinking about relationships as something you have or don't have or have to give up... what about taking the perspective of what quality relationship is it? How do you both participate in it? Is it a worthwhile relationship? Whatever it was in the past.... at this present time do you currently get enough return on your investment?

  • What could change on his side to improve it? What behavior could he do?
  • What could change on your side to improve it? What behavior could you do?

At the same time, I don’t want to be in a relationship where I can’t trust him to be open with me and others about relevant info.

Well... do you trust him right now to be open with you? To give you relevant info?

Sounds like that is the new behavior you want him to do. Be open and tell relevant info. If he doesn't know what info is relevant to you, then that's a behavior for you. Tell him and have him repeat it back in his own words so you know he got it like you meant it. Then there's just no more excuses. It becomes "behave done" or "behavior not done."

Enough times of "not done" and you will have to check your "staying-ness" behavior. It cannot become one of those situations where he dings you, and you complain and make some noise, and he does enough nice words so you stop complaining but nothing really changes. And then comes the next ding.

Lather, rinse, repeat.


I feel like I keep reading about “communication” and “building trust” but I don’t know what the mechanics of that looks like and what we’ve been doing is not producing good results...

Because it takes a WE. You have to accept at some point that 100% of your effort is only 50% of the fuel to make it fly. If he's not doing the work on his side? You cannot put in 200% to make up for him slacking. You will burn out, and you are carrying him. That's not a 2 way street relationship. That's getting sucked dry. :(

I don't say these things to add to your burdens. I am saying things things to encourage you to evaluate your situation in terms of behavior done / not done.

The feelings you feel, while valid, may cloud the issues.

The love feelings, the frustration feelings, whatever other feelings... try to set them aside.

When viewed strictly from "these are behaviors I need to be happy particpating in this relationship"....

Are they getting done or not done?

What's the bottom line there?

If you need a therapist of your own to help support you in this tough time, you could get one. However it plays out in the end you might benefit from airing out with someone.

These past two weeks, I’ve been hard on him and it’s made him withdrawal. I apologized, but it hasn’t helped. These past few days I’ve been trying to give us a break from the long tough talks, but with him withdrawing it feels like I’m apologizing for my feelings. So now I’m still hurt and he’s stonewalling me.

Especially airing out this stuff.

I encourage you to think things out and do your soul searching.

Galagirl
 
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Hi Lantern,

It sounds like the main problem here is that Kettle would not tell Lens and Pill about you. I am thinking that he has (finally) told them now, but maybe you are worried about him not telling other women in the future? and I take it there are other things that are making things difficult, such as him stonewalling, and I hear that you are feeling hurt. Has he promised to tell all future women about you? That might be the first step, although an obvious question is, how could you trust his promise?

Hopefully his therapist will have some ideas.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Thank you for the insight. Yeah, it’s hard to be facing this so deep into this relationship. I’ve been trying to sort out my feelings and figure out what to even ask for.

When we switched to poly, the conversation about Lens came back up. I wanted him to tell her the whole story, but it kinda got set aside again with a lot of other really big conversations that were going on, along with me learning new ways to think about relationships, etc. I thought the thing with Lens back in the beginning was partly due to a lack of language and understanding on our part. He’s identified as poly this whole time, but only recently even had a word for that or a way to explain it. I thought now that we had new tools, had ventured into new territory, we wouldn’t have that issue again. And here we are. And I regret making excuses for him to myself about behavior I was not okay with.

In his favor, and FallenAngelina asked about this, one of the things I’ve admired about him all along is his desire and ability to keep improving as a person. He’s broken some major problematic behavior in the past and says he’s approaching this the same way. He’s not trying to defend what he did and says whether or not we continue together he’s comitted to solving this pattern in himself so it quits damaging his important relationships. He’s been very resistant to therapy in the past, so I’m hoping that this drive to get extra help is indicative of a real change.

As far as trusting him presently to give me complete and relevant info... I don’t. And I’m not sure what to do about that. One of my first asks was a clear and complete understanding of his relationship with Pill, I suggested reading their texts with permission from them both. And then I screwed that up by being impatient and reading them without permission... And I feel like I got a better idea, but not a complete one, partly because they were an old set of texts. And ultimately I don’t want to be in a relationship where that’s the only way to feel like I’m filled in on relevant info. He won’t lie to direct questions, but it’s like I have to riddle out the right question to ask to get the info I need to make informed decisions. And I’m not even sure he knows he’s doing it. His families communication is pretty deeply dysfunctional and I think it feels like a life-or-death level threat sometimes to be clear about what he’s thinking/feeling (there’s a lot of PTSD wrapped up in this as well, makes his relationship to his own safety tricky), and I think he feels deeply responsible for how others feel. He feels interrogated and like his privacy is being invaded. I’ve been trying to figure out what the parameters are for what counts as relevant or what I need to know to get clarity.

I guess my questions about communication and building trust- I’m trying the things I know how to do. I believe there are ways to communicate and build trust that I’m not aware of because I believe I’m not the only one who’s ever tried to solve this sort of problem. What we’ve done in the past and what we’re doing g presently doesn’t seem like a great method since we haven’t gotten the results we want. We’re in new territory because I’m not going to make excuses or ignore it anymore and I’m willing to end it if we can’t solve this. I don’t want this pattern in my relationship(s). I also trust his intention to fix this behavior, I trust that he sees how damaging it is and doesn’t want it in his relationship(s) either.

I know I’ve got a lot of soul searching to do. And I know I actually have to break it off if this continues. I’m just looking for how to move forward and/or make that call. I’ve never had a prior relationship last this long, become this entwined, or work through this issue. I can’t tell if this is the part where I need to be patient or if I’m spinning my wheels or what.
 
Kevin, yeah that’s the jist of it. He basically hurt all three of us by lying.
The thing with Pill is that I can’t figure out why not tell me how flirty they’d gotten and why not tell her about me?
With Lens, telling her would have meant changing/ending a meaningful romantic relationship, so I get why he’d rather not- it’s just a hard, painful conversation. With Pill, he maintains that he’s not interested in her romantically. It’s not like with Lens where revealing the info would(has, even years later) drastically change the relationship. With Pill it seems to not even be that big a deal, although I’m pretty sure she doesn’t have a very complete understanding of how this has affected him/us.

I surprised myself last night. We were discussing it and I basically gave him a pep talk. I told him I wanted him to figure this out for himself whether or not we stayed together, which he has repeatedly said he’s comitted to. I gave examples of past challenges he’d overcome and what a postive impact they’d had on the people around him. I told him even if it didn’t directly benefit my relationship with him, it would still be good for me to know the transformation has taken place and the postive effects of that would be in his kids lives and our larger network. It surprised me because it just sort of popped out of me, in that way you don’t realize what your saying until it’s out of your mouth.

Anyways, I know you guys are right about the souls searching, figuring out what to ask for, remembering why I appreciate him and balancing that with an understanding that sometimes things need to end. I do hope the therapist has some good ideas/guidance. I’m going to check out more Gotman and Lerner literature on communication and such. Open to recommendations if there’s more useful info I’m not aware of.
 
FallenAngelina, I really think you’re right. It’s very bolstering to have the resource of everyone’s thoughts and experiences and insights here. Even just feeling like I’m not the only one trying to puzzle things out helps, makes it feel less dire. There might be good options for moving forward with Kettle, and if there aren’t, I’ll be okay then too.
 
I’m going to check out more Gotman and Lerner literature on communication and such. Open to recommendations if there’s more useful info I’m not aware of.

I like Marshall Rosenberg and non-violent communication.

https://www.cnvc.org/

Of all the books, I think this one is the easiest to get through and most practical in terms of getting to where you can apply the tools

Living Non violent Communication

But a quick overview of the NVC process is here

http://www.nonviolentcommunication.com/aboutnvc/4partprocess.htm

The feelings inventory

https://www.cnvc.org/sites/default/files/feelings_inventory_0.pdf

The needs inventory

https://www.cnvc.org/sites/default/files/needs_inventory_0.pdf

HTH!
Galagirl
 
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Thanks again for the insight. It’s not solved, but things are less tense and he’s getting set up with therapy. I’m looking into it for myself as well.

GalaGirl, thanks for the links- I’m very interested in learning more about this. We started watching some of the Rosenberg material available on YouTube last night. However this situation shakes out, it looks like a set of skills I’d really like to be able to use.
 
It sounds like you are on the right track.
 
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