New and Confused

Interesting discussion for me, as well. Ravenscroft, you make a good point about the disparate threat levels, but my rush to judgement caveat holds up, I think. In any case, I'm appreciating all of the thought, research and time it takes to write the posts in this thread. This sums up my position rather well:

...at the end of the day it is a choice - and that choice is each person's to make, and to be accountable for. And we can all try to avoid judging that choice - since we can never really know everything that went into it.
 
Interesting discussion for me, as well..... In any case, I'm appreciating all of the thought, research and time it takes to write the posts in this thread.

FallenAngelina - your input into this discussion has been appreciated as well - always enjoy your posts. Al
 
Not sure why that was your response to what you quoted from me.
You present three scenarios:
  • a woman might want to keep her husband's peccadilloes out of the public eye
  • though some people do completely cheat on their spouses
  • lots of poly-leaning people don't want the world to know
This correlates poly "secrecy" with regularly lying to one's proclaimed partner, or at best shoring up the shared lie to "put up a bold front."

My impression was the discussion up to then was of the first two points, so bringing up simple public discretion seemed a weird turn.

FWIW, if I have some really cool piercings, my not showing them to every passing stranger DOES NOT mean I'm somehow ashamed of them.
 
In most of history and indeed in most part of the world today, cheating is considered the greater kindness...

Historically, long term marriages are chock-o-block full of secret adultery because secrecy is the respectful option in a social world that pities and fears cuckholds, "jilted" wives and "other women." There's a reason that secrecy has endured throughout the centuries and it's not because people are weak assholes. Most wives of powerful men have always expected that their husbands will have others and they expect not to have a public show of it.

...Sure, it would be great if we all lived in a world where poly was understood and accepted and sure, it would be great if more people came out about whom they loved, but we don't live in such a world right now. Keeping a love affair secret from one's family and one's spouse is often indeed the kindest and most respectful option, given a social climate that is totally unaccepting of poly.

~Karen

Hi Karen,

You and I seem to have very different world views about infidelity. I have found myself intensely curious about the way you view it and find myself agreeing with every individual sentence you write, despite disagreeing with the overall message. When you point out that throughout most of history, marriage was for reasons other than love, and that a sexual rendezvous outside of the marriage didn't necessarily break the marriage - I totally agree. When you write about keeping the affair secret from loved ones and family being a kind thing to do - I can see that keeping it secret gives the affair partners happiness that does not necessarily subtract from the original relationship of the married pair or negatively impact the children and that this can be an optimal situation for all parties involved.

I find what you are saying interesting because it is written so well and so correctly - but after days of reflection, I think my world view is just different and whilst I find myself agreeing with the individual sentences you write, I find myself disagreeing with the gist of what you are saying and wanted to pose an alternate view for others who are following this discussion.

I feel that infidelity, whilst meaning different things for different couples, definitely has the strong potential to break bonds of trust. While you can certainly have an affair if you've fallen out of love with your partner, I believe it's certainly possible to have an affair even whilst still in love with your original partner. Infidelity, when it comes to light, can shatter a marriage even if there is still love in the marriage. It's what makes infidelity so heart-breaking. Infidelity has the potential to destroy love.

Don't Ask Don't Tell (DADT) agreements are different from infidelity. There is a hurt and betrayal that is present in the latter that isn't present in the former. I feel that this forms a fundamental difference between how you and I use the term "affair". When you refer to affair, you seem to be talking about something that doesn't really hurt. When I talk of affairs, I am speaking of hurt and betrayal. To clarify my point, you have talked about how marriage in the past often consisted of sexual rendezvous on the side which were tolerated by society - that to me sounds like a culture in which there is a DADT understanding to relationships. When you speak of hiding the infidelity and carrying on with life as normal with kids and family - that also sounds like it has a DADT element to it in the sense that the infidelity does not disrupt daily life. Your later posts tend to have a similar feeling. In contrast, my view of infidelity consists of surprise, hurt and betrayal. I have sometimes linked Mark's story of infidelity because it showcases how lives and love can be destroyed by infidelity - including love between the married couple and even love between the affair partner, along with how difficult it is to juggle what you want against what society wants from you when it comes to love. Yes, love should be between two people and the rest of the world can go stuff it. But that's not how the world works. Your children, your parents, your social circle, all likely share the same worldview when it comes to infidelity and no one trusts a liar and a cheater. You cannot conduct infidelity and expect your children, parents and social circle to love your affair partner the way you do. It's just the reality of the world we live in.

In summary, I think I like your idea of DADT or poly or free love for everyone. I like how you feel that things will be better if society could just move ethically to a place where we wouldn't feel hurt by infidelity. But that is not the society we live in. Most people would be hurt - even poly people would be hurt - by infidelity. I daresay even you would be hurt by it. If we define infidelity as any emotional or sexual intimacy that violates trust, then any infidelity will hurt due to the nature of violated trust in what should be a caring relationship. Your examples of infidelity, especially those with a DADT element to it, seem to suffer less from trust violations and I suspect that is why you speak of infidelity the way you do and why I see it differently.

We just have different worldviews, Karen. No ill wishes meant.
-Shaya.
 
You present three scenarios:
  • a woman might want to keep her husband's peccadilloes out of the public eye
  • though some people do completely cheat on their spouses
  • lots of poly-leaning people don't want the world to know
This correlates poly "secrecy" with regularly lying to one's proclaimed partner, or at best shoring up the shared lie to "put up a bold front."

My impression was the discussion up to then was of the first two points, so bringing up simple public discretion seemed a weird turn.

FWIW, if I have some really cool piercings, my not showing them to every passing stranger DOES NOT mean I'm somehow ashamed of them.

I guess I was misunderstood. I was pointing out that some poly people are in the closet. That means, to me, that one can't defend cheating by claiming that they have to be discreet. In other words, it's fine to be discreet with everyone but your spouse/partner, unless of course your partner wishes for a DADT relationship.

In other words, I agree with you. That is why I did not understand your response.
 
Shaya, yours is of course the overwhelmingly dominant attitude toward affairs in our culture and there's no doubt that people are deeply wounded the way we have things set up. I find it helpful to try and understand why so many people would continue to engage in this kind of relationship rather than tell people that they should not engage in this type of relationship. Shoulds lead to disappointment and hurt and given how common affairs are, all the shoulding doesn't seem to be very effective anyway. I don't have personal experience with being cheated upon because I have never held a strong expectation of exclusivity in my relationships. It just makes sense to me that exclusive sexual and romantic attachment is of value only if it's freely chosen and offered every single day, not because either person is holding fast to "agreements" while longing to be elsewhere. In my own 18 year marriage, I extended a free range policy to my husband who never did take me up on the offer. But I realize that my perspective is in the micro-minority and yours is the mega-majority. Seems crazy to me, but maybe y'all are onto something, I don't know. I just know what works for me and that I'd rather give someone the freedom to roam as a default rather than extract fidelity from a promise. I find it much more interesting and pleasant to try to understand why so many people keep doing this rather than tell people that they should not and then get upset when they disappoint.
 
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Well since it was mentioned in this thread a bit... About the 12 steps

Can someone transpose the 12 steps into " Polyamory steps to opening awareness of self" .. Since most won't go to Al-Anon or AA... And a therapist can't get you there fast .. If ever.
There is no substitution for doing the steps with a sponsor... Let that fact never be lost either! And wasting time with a workaround is just a "Waste".
I think that would be a great tool ... Especially for Mono's
That got delivered the Bomb!.
I think it would be awesome for all the kid newcomers. And society as a whole... Lol
Toodles
 
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