I don't know if anyone can relate...

Lonlygirl64

New member
I know I don't respond to many other's posts because frankly, I am so new at this myself and feel I am not qualified to give anyone advice of any kind. But I DO read and follow along what is going on with everyone and I appreciate so much all I am learning.

With that said, as the title reads, I don't know if anyone can relate but I thought I would ask.

I am married to Harry. We came to poly via the lifestyle. All of that changed when we met Bob and Wanda. Bob and I fell in love. Harry and Wanda are still very much involved in the LS; Bob and I are pretty much only involved in each other. This causes much conflict as Harry and Wanda struggle with our feelings for each other, our overall relationship, and our departure from the lifestyle (they both miss the excitement and adventure the LS brought each of our individual marriages).

My question: I have posted previously about expectations to privacy regarding your relationship with other partners-- reading texts, emails, etc. Bob was having problems with Wanda reading all of our correspondence and then becoming angry. Bob finally confronted Wanda and that behavior has curtailed for the most part. Harry had never had that habit of reading my correspondence with any other partner and so it was never a concern.

Until today.

I had a date with Bob last night and when I got home this morning, not only did Harry read my texts, he went through my photo roll and through my overnight bag. Yes, he found things he did not want to see or find and now is hurt and angry. He say I have lied to him by not being forthcoming about last night activities with Bob. I say that my relationship with Bob is my business (thought I would tell him an overview, should he ask) but he argues that since we are married, I owe him full disclosure. I feel my privacy has been invaded.

Those of you with married partners, how would you feel? What boundaries do you have? What do you do/say?
 
I know I don't respond to many other's posts because frankly, I am so new at this myself and feel I am not qualified to give anyone advice of any kind. But I DO read and follow along what is going on with everyone and I appreciate so much all I am learning.

With that said, as the title reads, I don't know if anyone can relate but I thought I would ask.

I am married to Harry. We came to poly via the lifestyle. All of that changed when we met Bob and Wanda. Bob and I fell in love. Harry and Wanda are still very much involved in the LS; Bob and I are pretty much only involved in each other. This causes much conflict as Harry and Wanda struggle with our feelings for each other, our overall relationship, and our departure from the lifestyle (they both miss the excitement and adventure the LS brought each of our individual marriages).

My question: I have posted previously about expectations to privacy regarding your relationship with other partners-- reading texts, emails, etc. Bob was having problems with Wanda reading all of our correspondence and then becoming angry. Bob finally confronted Wanda and that behavior has curtailed for the most part. Harry had never had that habit of reading my correspondence with any other partner and so it was never a concern.

Until today.

I had a date with Bob last night and when I got home this morning, not only did Harry read my texts, he went through my photo roll and through my overnight bag. Yes, he found things he did not want to see or find and now is hurt and angry. He say I have lied to him by not being forthcoming about last night activities with Bob. I say that my relationship with Bob is my business (thought I would tell him an overview, should he ask) but he argues that since we are married, I owe him full disclosure. I feel my privacy has been invaded.

Those of you with married partners, how would you feel? What boundaries do you have? What do you do/say?

First off, and this may be related to some of the issues you speak of... what is this lifestyle you speak of? What do you mean you came to poly via the lifestyle?

What changed and caused him to look through your stuff?

Personally, I'd discuss privacy boundaries with a partner from the outset.
 
I had a date with Bob last night and when I got home this morning, not only did Harry read my texts, he went through my photo roll and through my overnight bag. Yes, he found things he did not want to see or find and now is hurt and angry. He say I have lied to him by not being forthcoming about last night activities with Bob.

I think that is a breech of privacy. I would feel annoyed.

There are things my spouse and I share freely. We both share the master bedroom. We don't have to knock to go in there. The kids do, but not us. But I don't root around in his closet nor he mine. He doesn't go in my purse or phone and I don't go in his wallet or phone. Just because he's my spouse doesn't mean he's not ALSO an individual person who deserves polite respect.

Would Harry just up and root around in the grocery clerk's, mailman's or bank teller's things like that? No? Then why don't you (the spouse) get the basic manners he would afford to familiar strangers?

Over here we ask first. If he asks me if I have $5? If I have it, I'm gonna say "Sure, in my purse. You can have it." I freely will share whatever like that with him. But I appreciates he ASKS first and doesn't just take it. And I appreciate that even when I tell him it is ok to get it, he won't. He brings me the whole purse so I get it out to give to him. We both own both cars, but one is his that he uses and one is mine that I use. After decades of marriage even though his name is also on the title he goes "Can I get your car keys to get X out of the trunk? Can I use your car to do the errands with kids instead of mine? It's bigger." He doesn't just take it. He ASKS.

I think sometimes long term spouses take each other for granted and stop being polite to each other.

My parents are like that. My dad thinks their marriage "makes them as one" so he gets all up in my mom's stuff and she used to allow it. She also thinks she has to put out because it's her "duty" as the wife. He does poor behaviors and his excuse is "we are married! we are one!" but really he's describing an unhealthy enmeshment/entitlement. Mom was really surprised I don't do any of that in my marriage. We share sex only when we BOTH consent. My spouse doesn't root around in my purse or get all up in my business. I don't get all up in his. She comes late to it, but she's put her foot down on the intrusiveness.

I think you could tell Harry you do not appreciate the invasion of privacy. How have you lied? It is NOT a secret that you are dating Bob like a BF and practicing polyamory. It is not a secret you have stopped swinging.

Just as you don't blab to Bob about private details about (you + Harry), you aren't going to blab to Harry about private details about (you + Bob.)
You can tell Harry you see that he might feel weird or left out. And that you are willing to talk that out. But the solution to his sturgggles does NOT lay in Harry snooping about in your things. You can tell Harry you expect an apology for rooting around in your things without asking.

All Harry NEEDS to know is that you and Bob use safer sex practices so Harry can know how it might impact his own sex health hygiene. Overview is good enough.

Harry might WANT to know details of every encounter... but he doesn't get to know that. It is not only your info. It is also Bob's info. And if you and Bob BOTH don't consent to share that info with Harry? He doesn't get to know it.

What triggered this? Was this the first overnight date or something? Does Harry need "before care" and "after care" if you are doing overnights?

Galagirl
 
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Ugh!

Adam and I don't share details, or snoop each other's stuff or phones.

I was actually just writing to a friend who's in the process of opening her relationship (she's the mono one) that the stuff that hurts is the stuff you know. Sometimes less is more. He hurt himself. He's not allowed to blame you for that hurt!!! I hope he learned his lesson.

Now, what's he going to do to apologise and avoid a repeat performance?
 
Ugh, gross. As far as I'm concerned your husband violated your privacy. Being a spouse does NOT entitle you to snoop in someone else's phone or bag. Those are still your personal belongings. I'd be putting a new password on my phone so that no snooping could be done, and also setting up boundaries about going through personal belongings. If your husband has questions, he can ask, and you can decide if you're comfortable answering. Time to act like an adult and communicate instead of playing spy like a child.

Also, what is stopping Harry and Wanda from still engaging in the lifestyle? I assume you mean swinger lifestyle. Not all swinger communities require people to specifically partner swap. And if they want to go to events that are not open to single folks and only couples can attend, they can attend as each other's plus 1 and then swing with other folks at the event. You having a relationship doesn't prevent them from doing the fun things they want to do, they're just using their insecurities as an excuse and blaming you and Bob for that.
 
For us this would be a complete invasion of privacy. We tell what we want and we don't tell what we don't want. That said were are open and honest with each other but snooping would be a no-no. I would raise that this is not acceptable and expect an apology.
 
You say "we arrived at poly" but you haven't. In swinging, rules are in place to maintain the couple at any cost. You and Bob violated that, and you violated your spouses' trust. Let's be sure we have that straight.

Yes, Harry violated your privacy. That needs to be addressed. Also needing addressed is this affair you are having. You and Bob cannot just plow through without listening to your partners. Obviously they are not okay with this. This is not consensual at all.
 
I don't agree with vinsanity0 that your relationship with Bob is not consensual per Harry and Wanda and it's an affair. That goes too far.

But I have to say that the snooping is the sign of something way bigger. Namely that Wanda and Harry are just fine with swinging (lifestyle) but do not want anything romantic or more emotionally involved with other people.

You and Harry have a disconnect on the type of ethical non-monogamy you want to engage in. (Wanda and Bob do too.) Neither of you are wrong but you don't want the same things either. This happens a lot. One partner in a couple wants more sex or different kinds of sex but is not interested in romantic or emotional connections outside of the marriage. The other partner also likes swinging, but falls in love, like you did with Bob. Or realizes that they want an emotional connection too - that 'just sex' is not ideal for them.

Harry likely snooped because he is terrified you will leave him or he is insecure in his relationship with you in comparison with the newer, shinier Bob. He might need reassurances that you still love him and have no intention of leaving. You love Bob, yes, but you don't want him to leave Wanda, and run off with you. (Unless your relationship with Bob is really an exit out of your marriage with Harry, then it's kinder to acknowledge that and start compassionate divorce proceedings.)

To really resolve the snooping issue, the two of you will need to address the elephant in the room. You may want a therapist to help you and Harry figure this out.
 
In my opinion, unless it's previously established, no one has any right whatsoever to go through a partner's phone, overnight bag, emails, etc. Being in a relationship, even one that includes a piece of paper and a pretty, shiny ring, doesn't automatically negate someone's right to privacy.

If you and Harry have, throughout your marriage, agreed either explicitly or implicitly that it's okay to go through each other's stuff, then he had the right to do that this time. But if there has never been such an agreement, and this isn't recurring behavior or something that's been discussed, he was wrong (again, in my opinion).

Also, if you and Harry hadn't set any boundaries or agreements about what information you need to share with each other about other relationships, you were under no obligation to tell him anything about your date with Bob.

It sounds to me like you and Harry need to have a serious sit-down discussion about boundaries--not rules, which would be "You can't" or "You have to," but boundaries, which are more like "I can't accept you doing this," or "I need you to do that." Which sounds like a distinction of "it's just words," but there is a big difference in intention. It also sounds like you need to make some agreements about what information to share with each other.

And maybe put a passcode on your phone and a lock on your overnight bag...
 
This hits pretty close to home for me. Twice in the past I have had partners violate my privacy by reading through all my communications. The first ended the relationship and the second severely damaged and nearly ended the relationship with my nesting partner.

I put these at the same level of severity as cheating. If you had an understanding in place that allowed for this then as shitty as it may be then really there is little room to complain, however if this was not the case then you have every right to be angry and you should take some time to evaluate your relationship with Harry and have a proper sit down to talk about your boundaries, your future together and what boundaries you both need in regards to your relationship with Bob.
 
Hi Lonlygirl,

It seems that you and Harry have a difference of opinion about how much information Harry should have access to about your relationship with Bob. You feel that it should be your business, Harry feels that you should tell him everything. This difference of opinion is what led to the argument the two of you had. I think it speaks to the common difference between swinging (the lifestyle) and poly. Swinging is more couple-centric and has the married couple sharing everything. Poly is more egalitarian and has all of the partners relating independently. The fact that Harry is a swinger and you are poly says a lot. You will tend to have these kinds of disagreements.

To me it seems extreme for Harry to snoop through your things. But then, I am a polyamorist. You probably should change your password, and keep your overnight bag under lock and key. But you will still have this bigger issue to deal with, this thing where Harry wants you to tell him everything. Is there a compromise here? Can you tell Harry *more* without telling him *everything?* Can he accept that? (How does Bob feel about that?) If you can't arrive at a mutually acceptable compromise, you may end up getting a divorce. I hope it doesn't come to that. :(

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

P.S. For general reference, your previous threads are reviewed in http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?p=399998
 
I am married to Harry. We came to poly via the lifestyle. All of that changed when we met Bob and Wanda. Bob and I fell in love. Harry and Wanda are still very much involved in the LS; Bob and I are pretty much only involved in each other. This causes much conflict as Harry and Wanda struggle with our feelings for each other, our overall relationship, and our departure from the lifestyle (they both miss the excitement and adventure the LS brought each of our individual marriages).

Knowing both LS, as you call it, and poly couples, I'd say that these are two dramatically different frames of mind. I'd go so far as to say that LS (we call it swinging here) is more akin to monogamy than it is to polyamory. OK, yes, you get the thrill of fucking other people, but your man is your man and you are his. No question about it - no way, no how. It doesn't appear to me that any of you are into polyamory at all. You and Bob are totally into each other and although you may be reluctant to dismantle your existing marriages, your hearts are with each other, if you're honest. Harry knows this and that's likely what drives his desperate rifling through your private things. He can sense that you're lying to yourself and to him when you say that you want him to consider poly. You don't really want poly, you want Bob, and Harry knows it.

I'm with Sentinel on this. The elephant in the room is that you're all swingers and none of you is into poly.
 
I am married to Harry. We came to poly via the lifestyle. All of that changed when we met Bob and Wanda. Bob and I fell in love. Harry and Wanda are still very much involved in the LS; Bob and I are pretty much only involved in each other. This causes much conflict as Harry and Wanda struggle with our feelings for each other, our overall relationship, and our departure from the lifestyle (they both miss the excitement and adventure the LS brought each of our individual marriages).

My question: I have posted previously about expectations to privacy regarding your relationship with other partners-- reading texts, emails, etc. Bob was having problems with Wanda reading all of our correspondence and then becoming angry. Bob finally confronted Wanda and that behavior has curtailed for the most part. Harry had never had that habit of reading my correspondence with any other partner and so it was never a concern.

Until today.

I had a date with Bob last night and when I got home this morning, not only did Harry read my texts, he went through my photo roll and through my overnight bag. Yes, he found things he did not want to see or find and now is hurt and angry. He say I have lied to him by not being forthcoming about last night activities with Bob. I say that my relationship with Bob is my business (thought I would tell him an overview, should he ask) but he argues that since we are married, I owe him full disclosure. I feel my privacy has been invaded.

Those of you with married partners, how would you feel? What boundaries do you have? What do you do/say?

By far the most common source of frustration is couples either:

a) Acting without agreeing first.

b) Straying from the agreement.


From what you wrote, it looks like you had no agreement on cell phone or internet privacy. That is the first kind of mistake above. And this is amazingly basic, it has to do not with just polyamory but work, friends, relatives, medical - all manner of privacy concerns that thinking couples have as motivation to discuss privacy over. Not just digital privacy, but what about my man-room in the basement too, where moving one poker chip or half-drunk beer is catastrophe. You never even talked about these things? Going through a purse or wallet? Watching them wipe?

That suggests poor boundary planning in general. Which leads us to this:

You were in the "lifestyle", code for swingers we infer, and we know that swingers are couple-oriented not poly.

So for clarity, you were swingers, but two of the swingers fell in love. That is not "coming to poly" through swinging.

That looks like two people changing their minds after agreeing otherwise, and they are now operating on an ad hoc basis. Problems arise (duh!) and you stumble along trying to fix them when the main issue is the out-of-control lovers.

People who ordinarily trust you start spying when your word becomes unreliable. The cycle of relationship strife then has you complaining about being spied upon. Blaming the victim. This raises the anxiety in the victims even further and the fight proves the ever more urgent need for greater secrecy by one and greater spying by the other with keyloggers, private detectives, or whatever. It is a terrible cycle.

Forgive my frankness. But you didn't enter "poly" the right way, or at all. It is chaos really, with two people wanting it to be one thing and two others wanting it to be another.

You can't use a poll from volunteer polyamorists to "prove" one "side" or another is correct about the degree of privacy a poly relationship needs. I am 100% open with my wife, she sees anything she wants. I am too stupid to lie or conceal, my God what a tangled web we weave when at first we practice to deceive. I have zero interest in reading her cell phone or internet activity. I just don't care. Though I have permission.

But that is clearly not what others here tend to do. I understand them. It doesn't even need to be explained. And it is irrelevant.

You don't make the agreement after you have already broken relationship trust. You have to restore relationship trust before any agreement is even worthy of accepting instead of being sneered at or laughed at.

Harry isn't cool with what you got goin' on with Bob, hon. It doesn't have to do with cell phone privacy. You have to make a choice, it seems to me. Otherwise you are in this cycle of escalation. Then the decision will be made for you. Instead of you making the decision.

Best of luck to you. Be kind, regardless. Take care.
 
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THANK YOU all so very much for your input. I really value your opinions and insight!!

Seasonedpolyagain-- "lifestyle": swinging My husband I started back in the world of swinging about 2+ years ago after a decade break. I discovered very quickly that it really wasn't my thing and I rarely hooked up with anyone, valuing the friendships and socialization it afforded. Then I met Bob --who also was never much of a swinger -- and we realized we really liked each other. A lot. We both still will on occasion hook up with someone else, but it is very rare.

My husband Harry and Bob's wife Wanda are active participants in the swinging world with the full support of both Bob and I.

Galagirl -- No, this was not my first overnight with Bob. Probably closer to my 25th. I have no idea what triggered it. After several days of near silence Harry finally told me he was just feeling "second" and seeing my little toy bag in the overnight bag and realizing that Bob and I were sharing things he and I maybe don't share (sexual things Bob is into Harry is not) just set him off. I reminded him one of the reasons we entered the swinging world was to experience things that monogamy could not afford us and so I was going to experience things with others he and I would not. But that did not mean I preferred Bob to him or that I loved him more. I also reminded him that I would have told him about my evening had he asked but going through my things was not acceptable and if he found things that upset him, that was on him.

Evie -- Harry said he was just checking to see if there was any laundry in my bag that needed to go in the wash. I told him that I would have taken care of that if there had been or he should have asked me. I doubt he will ever do anything like that again.

Breathemusic -- Harry and Wanda ARE still very much involved in the swinger community. Harry has plenty of opportunities to "play" with others at parties and Wanda has regular afternoon "play dates". Bob and I only have "play dates" with each other but our time is limited to evenings which can be difficult as Harry and Wanda are both home and seeking our time. We are lucky to be together once a month.

My comment about Harry and Wanda being disappointed about Bob and I not being active participants in the swinging world like we once were meant that neither Bob nor I actively play with our spouses in group situations anymore. There was a time when Harry and I might play with another couple or with a third person. Bob and Wanda did the same. It was not frequent but it did happen. Both Harry and Wanda feel that we are no longer "doing the lifestyle together" with them as now it never happens. You could almost say that Bob and I are "monogamous" with one another.

Zigzag -- Thanks for making me feel like I am not overreacting.

Vinsanity0 -- I understand your thinking and point of view but I disagree. Bob and I have been open and honest with Harry and Wanda since the beginning about our relationship. It has not always been easy. There have been lots of talking and negotiations. We do not classify what we have as an affair because we are not lying and cheating to either of them. They both have agreed to allow us to be together and experience what we are experiencing...but it is not always easy for a person who has never been in our shoes to understand.

Opalescent -- Ironically, Wanda had someone for a short time who she was also in love with-- Tom. Tom and she are still close and she still loves him but their relationship is nowhere near as intense as mine and Bob. It does help Wanda understand with greater clarity how Bob and I can feel the way we do. Unfortunately, Harry has not had the same experience.

Harry absolutely is insecure. I know this and try to reassure him daily. Sometimes it is exhausting. We have tried therapy but he doesn't go consistently. I go weekly.

KS43 -- Harry and I have always agreed to give one another our privacy. He SAYS he was just looking for dirty laundry and that may be true..but still...I felt bad he was hurt...and then felt he got what he deserved...

Maitland -- Boundaries by Dr. Henry Cloud is one of my favorites and I have used it over and over in my adult life. I brought up some of the topics in it in our discussion the other night during our talk about privacy, transparency, and moving forward.

kdt26417 -- You are absolutely correct!! Harry thinks I should continue to tell him everything like I did with partners when swinging but I no longer want to as Bob and I have moved from a "swinging relationship" to a loving one.

I have been trying to do exactly what you suggest-- telling him more without telling him everything. Bob and I both tell Harry and Wanda what they should know "Bob and I have a date, we are going here or there, we will be home at X"....but I refuse to say, "Bob and I had sex and did A, B, C"...Bob and I discussed how much we love one another ....etc". I feel those are intimate things that are between me and Bob and unless they impact my marriage to Harry, they should be private. I don't think of them as "secrets" so much as private interactions Harry does not need to know the details of.

Sentinel -- I am nowhere near ready for that. And Bob has no intention of leaving Wanda....not now..and probably never.

FallenAngelina -- You may be right. I don't know. I am really struggling with my feelings for both men right now. My heart is with Bob yes, but I do love Harry. I love being married to him. But I want a relationship with Bob. Harry does doubt my feelings for him from time to time and yes, that is what lead us to where we are now-- with him going through my things. As I said above, I try and reassure him daily but sometimes it gets exhausting telling someone the same thing over and over and never being believed.

MayDecember -- Privacy was discussed from day one of our relationship, 18 years ago. It has been repeatedly discussed, reinforced, modified as needed. We both agreed to not read each others email/texts; we agreed to not go through each others folders/bags/etc. If Harry wants to know anything, all he has to do it ask. The same goes for me, if I have questions.

Harry says he was simply looking for laundry. I say it was more. My word has not become unreliable. I am open and honest with Harry, even when it hurts. Harry is looking for things that aren't there. Or, like my ex did before we split up, he is looking for things he WANTS to be there....

If Harry cool with what I have going on? Some days, yes...some, no. I know that. It's a daily struggle to be with someone who doesn't understand how I can possibly love them both.

I will correct ya'll with the "swinging is couples based only" idea. Their are all different kinds of swingers-- couples together, couples separate, only the wife/husband plays, etc. We have a number of friends who are swingers who do their own, individual thing. They date and play separately. The only thing that makes Harry and I and Bob and Wanda different is the emotions Bob and I have for each other. In the swinging world, that's kind of a broken rule.

Thank you all again....
 
Thank you for more info. So it wasn't the 1st overnight.

Sounds like at least 2 problems here.

  • Harry's insecurity
  • Changing open models.

It used to be (we are are a couple and we both swing) and now it is something like (Harry swings on his side, Harry and I are a couple, and then I poly my side. I am the hinge, Harry and Bob are my partners in a poly N -- cuz Bob has wife Wanda)

Both Harry and Wanda feel that we are no longer "doing the lifestyle together" with them as now it never happens.

They don't feel it. They observe it. You and Bob don't want to do this stuff together any more -- where you and Harry go play with someone or a couple. Or Bob and Wanda do. So they might feel sad about that.

It sounds persnickety but as you try to clean up boundaries and things in your relationship with Harry, you might consider using

  • "think" for actual thoughts one thinks
  • "feel" for actual emotions one is feeling
  • and "observe/experience" for things one has noticed or experienced.

Not use "feel" interchangeably with "think."

Cuz if Harry's all muddly in his communication -- helping him to keep things "in their lane" by modeling that behavior could be helpful. And if not? It may help your own communication be clearer.

Harry absolutely is insecure. I know this and try to reassure him daily. Sometimes it is exhausting. We have tried therapy but he doesn't go consistently. I go weekly.

You know what? If he doesn't step it up on the therapy? Maybe that's becoming a deal breaker for you.

Because you do not exist to be his "life raft" person to always be propping him up.

This lack of consistency in attending therapy and doing his therapy homework doesn't show Harry is serious about fixing his bucket problem.

You could stop reassuring him daily. You get exhausted doing that. Cut it out. Talk to your therapist about "reasonable reassuring" in a relationship. Daily is way too much!

Privacy was discussed from day one of our relationship, 18 years ago. It has been repeatedly discussed, reinforced, modified as needed. We both agreed to not read each others email/texts; we agreed to not go through each others folders/bags/etc. If Harry wants to know anything, all he has to do it ask. The same goes for me, if I have questions.

Fair enough. So what stops him from asking questions more up front and keeping this agreement on his end?

Fear of seeming "weak" or something?

Harry does doubt my feelings for him from time to time and yes, that is what lead us to where we are now-- with him going through my things. As I said above, I try and reassure him daily but sometimes it gets exhausting telling someone the same thing over and over and never being believed.

Well, who is the one poking holes in his "assurance bucket" so it cannot stay full?

Cuz if Harry does thinking behavior or action behavior that pokes holes or kicks his bucket over? And he doesn't learn the skills of...

  • how not to self trigger (so it only tips by accident and not his own doing)
  • how to reassure his own self and cope when he's upset
  • how to self validate so he doesn't need you as his life raft person

... no amount of you filling bucket again over and over will correct it. Because he keeps draining it himself.

Doing less than self respecting behavior like not keeping the privacy agreement and snooping? That's not behavior to feel proud of. Harry cannot hold himself in high regard or esteem doing stuff like that. So he takes a ding and bam. Hole punched in the bucket. Maybe this article helps him or you. Self respect matters.

You are already exhausted. If being his bucket filler is like filling the black hole of need? YOU need to learn to stop filling it. And let him have and experience natural consequences.

Like if he chooses to snoop rather than keep to privacy agreement about asking up front? And he finds toys in there and upsets his own self? Well, he upset his own self then. You do not have to comfort him when he chooses to violate privacy agreement. If he wishes not to feel bad from snooping, he could not snoop.

Talk to your therapist about backing off and finding healthier balance. Harry has to step up. And he might think you are being "mean" to him in backing off some. But it's what's needed if (he's gonna be healthy) AND (you are gonna be healthy) participating in the (you+ Harry) relationship.

Don't do so much work and exhaust yourself! That is not you healthy. Do your part of fixing the problem. Back off. Stop reassuring daily. Only reassure when appropriate.

Whether or not he steps up to do his part of fixing the problem -- that's on Harry.

Harry says he was simply looking for laundry. I say it was more. My word has not become unreliable. I am open and honest with Harry, even when it hurts. Harry is looking for things that aren't there. Or, like my ex did before we split up, he is looking for things he WANTS to be there....

That would be annoying to me. But let it go. If he says he was looking for laundry? Believe him at face value and agree that laundry chores are like "If it is in the hamper on my turn to wash, I will wash. If it's all over the house, I'm not chasing it down" OR "everyone does their own personal wash, we take turns on common towels and bedding" or similar.

The bigger concern to me is honesty hurting. Why's it hurt? HOW do you talk when you are honest with Harry? If you are comminicating calmly and fairly and it "hurts" Harry to hear it, that's on his receiving end. Like the listener part of the conversation --- maybe Harry taking it personally or something. And not a problem on the "broadcasting" part of the conversation. Or maybe it IS a problem because you are honest but spill the beans in public at a restaurant. And Harry wants "narrowcast" in private at home? Maybe that's an area to examine? HOW you are honest?

If Harry cool with what I have going on? Some days, yes...some, no. I know that. It's a daily struggle to be with someone who doesn't understand how I can possibly love them both.

Well, all you can do is be honest and consistent. What makes this a daily struggle? Having to reassure him daily? Something else? What would ease the struggle on your end?

Harry's struggle on his end is for Harry to solve. It is not solved by you "carrying" him. Like... you aren't gonna be MEAN to Harry. But you also are not going to be over-responsible and do all his jobs FOR him. Ultimately he doesn't have to understand it. He has to be able to accept that you have two partners in order to be ok being one of the V arm persons with you as the hinge on this V.

[An N is like two V's stuck together. You and Bob each are hinges. The V of (Harry- You - Bob) + the V of (you - Bob - Wanda). ]

If Harry doesn't want to participate in a poly V thing like that? He is not up for it? Then that is something he needs to sort out inside himself and then withdraw his consent to participate. His consent belongs to him.

Alternately? If you as hinge see Harry struggling for a long time and him not really wanting to be in a V thing? But hurting himself not saying anything and doing things he doesn't really want to do because he's insecure or avoiding a break up or something?

You may have to do the kind thing and cut him loose so his suffering can end and he can start to heal. Rather than go on and and on and on struggling and suffering and never healing. :(

Galagirl
 
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Thank you for clarifying things Lonelygirl64.

GalaGirl has said some great stuff. I especially want to echo her admonition that you cannot change him. You will grind yourself into dust over something you have zero control over.

I will correct myself on my understanding of the original agreement. The boundaries were discussed in great detail. So no snooping.

You are bothered that he snooped. And he lied to do it, claiming it was all about laundry. Because, you know - most guys are zealots about laundry. lol.

By the same token it implies your agreement regarding the "lifestyle" is all the more important: that violating that agreement is pretty grave. Because you guys really talked the whole thing over carefully. It was not a poly agreement. There was no conflation of swinging with what you now have going with Bob.

So the sequence of events is that you went outside the agreement, and he responded by violating the agreement too, regarding privacy protocol.

If I may, hon - this is following a "cheater" sequence where cheating is followed by privacy invasion from spying, which is next followed by the affair being driven further underground and the spying becoming more sophisticated and covert.

Look how you feel, and it is according you your own words a daily agony. He cannot be made to "understand" you loving two people.

He understands being gay, doesn't he? He doesn't have to BE gay in order to understand it.

Now having COMPERSION over it is another thing altogether.

Despite what you've said about your husband being "cool" with Bob, you contradict yourself with this testimony about your daily agony. So you are confused.

Hubby doesn't have compersion, nor empathy for your love of Bob. He has resentment. He lost trust.

When my wife is snooping, I ask her what she is doing. She says "looking for evidence". I remind her that every time she goes looking for trouble, she finds it.

Because I have a mistress she knows full well of and speaks to by phone or text, meeting with the three of us occasionally. So it's absurd to be looking, right? If what you expect to find is going to offend you.

My wife accuses me: "look, under the kitchen table, those are HER shoes". WTF hon, you are in HER (our) apartment.

I've had to leave mistresses, to admit when circumstanes weren't right to continue. Not because my wife wanted it, my goodness she is no help. She's always coming down on the side of the girl. Female in-group preference.

It's pretty simple, really. I look at how my days are going. If my days are filled with drama, with anxiety - then it's time to change course. A 19 y.o. perfect body is great eye candy, but if every minute of the day she's a pain in the ass then it's not going to work even for one day.

My wife can also SAY she is not bothered by something with the mistress but I have eyes and ears of my own. I know the difference between my wife going temporarily insane and being in a constant state of anxiety.

The point is to flourish in life. Not to have your head down, trudging wearily through the snow.

You either have the wrong husband or the wrong Bob. Or you have the wrong expectations of Bob + Husband working.
 
I try and reassure him daily but sometimes it gets exhausting telling someone the same thing over and over and never being believed.
Seeking and offering reassurance for insecurities is a band aid, at best. Insecurities speak to a person's particular fear, which an intimate relationship often brings up out into the light, but that the partner cannot erase. Nobody can assuage insecurities except the person who experiences them. You can offer temporary relief, but you can never eradicate fear in another. That's a total inside job. Aaaaaaand.....Harry has much to fear in this situation. Swinging is indeed not couples-only (many of us here do have swinging experience,) but it is couples-centric. It is much more akin to monogamy than it is to poly in that the couple union is to be preserved at all cost. Single people may play with couples, sure, and couples may switch around and play in groups, but the couple is sacred. You are correct that developing romantic attachments is a violation of this social contract - an enormous difference from polyamory. Polyamory requires a mind expansion and a heart opening than most in the swinging world can't and don't want to even begin to comprehend.

From experience, I will tell you: You can't put the genie back into the bottle. You and Bob have the magic that you have and that's not going away. Right now, you and Bob can't imagine a world in which you're not with your present spouses, but love has a way of making enormous changes that we once never thought possible.
 
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Wondering how much this is still a factor. You wrote it 6 months ago.
What has Harry done to solve or work through his problems? Right now, not much. He doesn't have any friends but wont make the effort to make any. We have couple friends and I encourage him all the time to call one of the guys and grab a beer or go do some sort of "guy thing" but he doesn't. Then he gets angry when I want to go out (with Bob) and he has nothing to do and nowhere to go. He has no hobbies-- work has always been his whole life.
 
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