The Sushi Effect

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Hi all,

I posted this in my external blog, but I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts about it:

http://frombaltictoboardwalk.blogspot.com/2016/01/virtual-book-club-more-than-two-topic.html

TLDR: The "Sushi Effect" is presented as irritation that we're not sharing "firsts" with our partners, and as a prompt to embrace and enjoy change if it means that there's a positive outcome in the end. I instead see it as the "Scooby Doo Effect", where one partner (usually the established partner) has their suggestions continually rejected, while a new partner's identical suggestions are humored or agreed with. Not so much about wanting to be the "first" as it is wanting to have your suggestions considered without being rejected outright.

Opinions? I feel like Mike Meyers in "Coffee Talk". Discuss! :D
 
I think I have over developed my compersion skills to the point where I can't even remember what it felt like to get jealous about stuff like that :eek: I read the entry on your blog, and a couple of other explanations of the "sushi effect", and I was just scratching my head thinking, but aren't they happy their partner got to eat yummy sushi???

What you're saying about feeling like your suggestions are ignored makes sense, though. I tend to see that as less of a "poly thing" though... For me having my ideas or suggestions blown off would be a problem whether or not there was another partner getting different treatment.

To me this seems like a situation where poly obscures the real issue. In the original example, the person wants to try sushi with their partner, and that want keeps getting ignored. That sucks, and while I agree with the books premise that the partner eventually embracing sushi is a positive outcome, it doesn't change the original dynamic of the partner ignoring/refusing something that was important to the person in the example.

A more positive outcome would be if the partner learns to be more responsive to their "old" partner's desires, and the next time something like this comes up, embraces the opportunity to try something new (dim sum! fondue!) with the longer term partner. (I confess to not having read the book so maybe this was discussed???)

In a more general sense, though, I think a big part of being happy in non monogamous relationships is accepting that your partner *will* behave differently with other partners. And that's not a *bad* thing. As long as you are getting your needs met, either from that partner or other people on your life, it's a *good* thing if your partner can stretch and grow and enjoy being different with other partners.

When Andy and I first met, he told me that he doesn't drink much and he NEVER dances. Ha. What he meant was, I don't drink much unless I'm with Stephanie, and I only dance when I'm drunk with Stephanie :D I have honestly never seen Andy dance or have more than 2 drinks in a night, but I have seen $1000 bar tabs from his nights out with her. And drunken dancing pictures :p

It used to bug me, and I'd feel jealous, and try to convince him to go out bar hopping and dancing with me. Never happened. What I realized, eventually, was that it didn't bug me that he went out and did these things with her. It didn't even bug me that he wouldn't do these things with me. I love my Andy, the responsible one who is always the designated driver. No, what bugged me was that I wanted to go out and go crazy, and I felt I couldn't have that unless it was with Andy. Which was ... not true. So I started going out more with my friends, and having my own wild nights, and suddenly I was able to just be sooo stinking happy that Andy got his blow off steam time with his friend-girl :)

(Plus, posting his drunken dancing videos with the caption "the man who refused to dance with me at our wedding" is just a unique kind of awesome :D)

I guess what I'm getting at is... All of the "jealousy over firsts" and even "frustration over not having suggestions considered" seems to come from a place of simply not getting ones needs met in the relationship.
 
This reminds me a lot about what our ex-metamour Lily used to say of our ex-partner Jay: that one of the hardest things about seeing him with others is seeing him making efforts that he would never think to do with her. As an extreme example, in his first poly relationship he bought a motorbike so that he and his new lover could go out riding together. Although Lily also eventually got to enjoy similar treats with him, for the longest time there was some bitterness there - that he had made a 'big purchase' (out of his own money, admittedly) without consulting her, that it was made with another woman in mind, to facilitate a relationship other than her own. At one point Lily described it as getting scraps from the table, because even though she had always loved the idea of him getting a motorbike, and romantic rides up the coast, he didn't do that with her in mind. From Jay's perspective, he's always been a little befuddled. Lily never brought the idea up with him directly. He thought of it at the time as something that would benefit both his relationships. He saw no special significance in the idea that this was the first time he'd done something so out of character - for him he was used to making impulsive purchases before he dated Lily, and it just so happened that several years had passed before he was tempted to do so again.

I can totally empathise with how Lily felt in many ways, but at the same time, this wasn't a case of her being direct with him about her wants. And sometimes that's understandable, because sometimes it's only when you see your partner doing something out of the norm that you even know that that would also be something you'd enjoy. I think I can understand and could handle that kind of situation more readily than the classic 'sushi effect' where the change comes after repeated direct asks. Claire is right in that it's about needs not getting met, and I think it's really hard seeing a partner readily satisfy a need you want with someone else. But then I think you need to take a holistic view. Perhaps there are other things your partner is doing for you that in some way make that hard, but because they are not doing those same things that you value with their other love, then there is the head-room for that other thing you consider to be the icing on the cake within their relationship but not yours. And at the end of the day, you'd rather eat cake without icing (or get the icing elsewhere) than only eat icing. Not sure that metaphor works but hopefully the gist is clear! If your partner was super open minded with your sushi recommendations, but lousy at being a co-parent with you, or making you feel good, or whatever your version of relationship cake is, then you'd have bigger problems.

Unfortunately, with me, Nina, Jay and Lily there were lots of little things that to Lily were really cake that he was giving to us. And although you could argue she did benefit too, she really struggled to get past the notion that he wasn't just giving her scraps. The simple fact that he was dating the both of us, in a triad, with the group sex, was a major blow to her. She had always really wanted for him, her and a.n.other to be together in a configuration like that, and although they had experimented with a few threesomes together, they hadn't worked out. He always attributed it to him not really being into group sex, but really I think it was about him not being able to pick his own partners or being especially into people she was into. They also have a libido mismatch (her high, him low), and she felt that we were getting all the sex (which may have been true for all I know), as well as different needs for daily communication. By nature, Jay is happy to not be in touch much, but Lily is the opposite. After years of her asking him to communicate more he finally did...but only after he started dating us. Again, it's totally rational on his part. He sees Lily all the time at home so he feels 'full'. He saw us just once or twice a month, and missed us. When Lily was struggling with our relationship, he felt far away from her and so wanted to be in touch more to feel full again. And yet once she knew how often he was in touch with us it had the opposite effect.

I guess the take home message I get from pondering all these examples is that firstly, there's often a rational (and sympathetic) explanation for why our partners do things for others that they don't do for us, but that secondly, it can often be hard to see beyond that first instinctual response of 'they must care more for' or 'they must respect me less than' or whatever the first negative story your brain concocts for you is. Once you dig a little deeper you often see how the situations you think of as comparable really aren't, and then it's possible that some of that initial sting will dissipate naturally. Nevertheless, it's important to directly ask for the things you want and not just assume your partner can infer from your hints.
 
I see what you're saying, I believe, which has very little to do with jealousy and very much to do with being heard and not being treated as an object/with the contempt that comfort can bring.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this isn't about jealousy or being first. It's more about the concept that when someone is with you for awhile, and feels like they've either gotten to know you completely OR has button-holed you into a particular place in their life, they stop hearing you or reacting to you, the individual, and sort of make a mental fence around things they'll do with you vs things they won't do with you.

It's like...let's say that when I met Bob, I didn't like dancing. Bob and I started dating, and Bob knew that I didn't like dancing and never wanted to go dancing. Bob likes dancing, but doesn't love it.

I decide to start exercising and I go to exercise classes, lots of them, trying out all different ways to exercise. Turns out, the dancercise classes are the most fun. I really get into them. Then I start thinking "Instead of just dancercise classes, why don't I sign up for some ballroom classes with Bob?"

So I ask Bob, and Bob says "But you don't like dancing!" and I say "But I've changed. Now I do like dancing. Do you want to go dancing?" and Bob says "no, you don't like dancing, you've never liked dancing, and I'm not going to go to dancing classes with you, because you'll hate it" And then he ignores my protestations that I *do* want to go to dance class and I *won't* hate it.

Then Bob starts dating Nancy, who loves dancing, and Bob goes dancing with Nancy, but *still* won't go dancing with me because of my dislike for dancing. Which no longer exists, but Bob isn't really seeing me for me anymore, he's seeing me as the me who he fell deeply in love with, and though I have much in common with that person, I'm not totally that person anymore, what with inner growth and changing over time.

***

So that's what I'm reading.

If a partner begins to treat me like this, then I think it would cause the relationship to end, if they couldn't (or wouldn't) update their thinking. Because we wouldn't really be having a relationship anymore. The Bobs of the world would be having a relationship with the static person who they believed me to be, instead of the real me. It actually reminds me a lot of parents (like my own) who didn't see me as me for years; they still saw me as a teenager/young adult that I was, and didn't really take my growth/change/differences into account when interacting with me for a long time.

I also think that maybe this partially illustrates that saying "familiarity breeds contempt", in that when some people become familiar with something, they mistake that familiarity for a permanent sort of knowing, a refusal to acknowledge changes that the familiar person may undergo.

That familiarity (in my experience) leads people to discount all sorts of things about those they are familiar with. Not just requests to do new things, but sometimes any kind of change can be viewed as negative or from a sort of "Why are you acting weird like this?" kind of reaction, instead of viewing it as a "you are changing and there are outward as well as inward changes that reflect the constantly shifting being that is you".

Anyways, yeah. Like I said, I think I'd view this kind of thinking as a bad sign, as it would indicate to me that my partner has closed themself off from regarding me as a perpetually-changing being, and has pigeonholed me into one spot in their life, without regard to whether or not I actually fit (or if I've grown/shifted into something else). Were I to talk to them about it, I would stress that this absolutely DOESN'T have to do with jealousy or "being the first" and more has to do with being seen for myself, as well as being taken seriously as a person who has ideas that have merit and are worth trying out.
 
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I guess I've never felt that way. To me the "first" would be the first time I did it with her, whether she has done it before or not. If it was something I wanted and she did it with someone else I might be a little disappointed but that has never happened. If one of us doesn't want to do something with the other it is because we don't want to do that particular thing, period. Of course things can change, but I don't see taking that personally. For Cat and I the problem is more that she seems irritated when I find someone that wants to do something I like that she doesn't. Then she gets insecure as if that is the only thing I'm looking for in a relationship.
 
I see what you're saying, I believe, which has very little to do with jealousy and very much to do with being heard and not being treated as an object/with the contempt that comfort can bring.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this isn't about jealousy or being first. It's more about the concept that when someone is with you for awhile, and feels like they've either gotten to know you completely OR has button-holed you into a particular place in their life, they stop hearing you or reacting to you, the individual, and sort of make a mental fence around things they'll do with you vs things they won't do with you.

That's pretty much it. Whether you're ignored because it comes across as "nagging", or whether you're ignored because it's easier to do other things and ignore new suggestions, it still sucks.

I bring up the "nagging" thing, because the other example of this that came to mind was when my ex turned to me one day after doing some housework and said, "GF thinks I should help out around the house more." The fact that I had been asking for his help because not only was I working full-time, but my weekends were the "take care of all the housework" time, and nothing ever changed until his GF mentioned it just floored me, and I was extremely irritated (although happy he was starting to share the load with me).

This is probably an even better example of Franklin and Eve's point. I *was* happy to have had the help after his GF's suggestion, but boy was I bent that he had ignored me for so long when I would talk about it.

If a partner begins to treat me like this, then I think it would cause the relationship to end, if they couldn't (or wouldn't) update their thinking. Because we wouldn't really be having a relationship anymore. The Bobs of the world would be having a relationship with the static person who they believed me to be, instead of the real me.

It's funny, because eventually, it did lead (partially) to the dissolution of our marriage. He wanted me to be this person he thought I needed to be (his quote, paraphrased, was, "You're a 40-year-old mother of two. You should be acting like it."), rather than accepting that I still enjoyed the things I did before kids, and actually had the audacity to want to do them.

There were other issues as well, mostly stemming from a lack of respect, which I think also factors into this "dismissing me out of hand" problem.

It's interesting to look back and be able to pick it apart a bit. While you're in it, though, the "WTF?!" of it all tends to mess with your ability to analyze it. :)
 
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I have actually just found myself in a sushi situation, so I'm going to be reading that article and this thread with even more interest...

Years ago, Hubby spent a winter or two living and working in Florida during the off season at his job. (This was probably 15-20 years ago, long before I knew him, but he's had the same job since the early 1990s.) He didn't like Florida anough to necessarily live there, but he's always wanted to go back. He knows I've never been to Florida, so we've talked off and on about going. Finances are always an issue.

Last night, Woody told me that next month he's going to visit a friend who needs some legal advice and other assistance in a personal matter. Woody wants me to go with him, and I would very much like to go. He's even willing to coordinate it to coincide with a school trip Country will be on, so she and I will be gone at the same time.

Problem is, Woody's friend lives in Florida.

I haven't even had a chance to talk to Hubby about it yet. He might be completely fine with the idea. But he might be hurt about the idea of Woody bringing me someplace Hubby has been wanting to bring me.
 
I haven't even had a chance to talk to Hubby about it yet. He might be completely fine with the idea. But he might be hurt about the idea of Woody bringing me someplace Hubby has been wanting to bring me.

I think this is different, because you haven't been telling Hubby "No, I would never go to Florida, Florida sucks!" and then turn around and traipse off with Woody. I think there would be disappointment that he doesn't get to experience it with you, or envy that you get to take a trip he doesn't, or even jealousy that Woody is able to financially do something that the two of you haven't been able to accomplish - but the disrespect/negligence/devaluation aspect of the sushi situation isn't there.
 
That's pretty much it. Whether you're ignored because it comes across as "nagging", or whether you're ignored because it's easier to do other things and ignore new suggestions, it still sucks.

I bring up the "nagging" thing, because the other example of this that came to mind was when my ex turned to me one day after doing some housework and said, "GF thinks I should help out around the house more." The fact that I had been asking for his help because not only was I working full-time, but my weekends were the "take care of all the housework" time, and nothing ever changed until his GF mentioned it just floored me, and I was extremely irritated (although happy he was starting to share the load with me).

This is probably an even better example of Franklin and Eve's point. I *was* happy to have had the help after his GF's suggestion, but boy was I bent that he had ignored me for so long when I would talk about it.

But sometimes it takes hearing something from more than one person for it to sink in. On the surface it may appear that he jumped because he wanted to please his GF, but he could have thought, "OMG, I *have* been neglecting my duties around the house and I should do better." I'm just speaking in generalities because that may or may not be true in your case.
 
But sometimes it takes hearing something from more than one person for it to sink in. On the surface it may appear that he jumped because he wanted to please his GF, but he could have thought, "OMG, I *have* been neglecting my duties around the house and I should do better." I'm just speaking in generalities because that may or may not be true in your case.

That is true - one comment is an outlier, multiple comments is a pattern. However, even if a comment is an outlier, I think that the concerns of a partner should be listened to.

I want to be heard and understood. It's easy to tell yourself your partner "doesn't understand" until he hears and understands someone else. Then it highlights a communication problem somewhere - am I not communicating well? Am I just being ignored whenever I say something? Does he really not get it, and this other person communicated it in a better way?

I think this is something that needs to be worked on, rather than swept under the rug with, "Well, he's doing it now, isn't that great? Enjoy the positives!"

That all said, I know we're not perfect - I'm guilty of not hearing/understanding my ex as well, and we both really dropped the ball a number of times. It's easy to slip into old patterns within my current relationship, but at least it's not easy to *stay* in those old patterns within a poly relationshp. Communicate, communicate, communicate! :D
 
Hey there YAH,

I like how (in your blog entry) you speculated that dating a new person perhaps pokes a hole in the comfort zone balloon (to put it in my own words), so, something you wouldn't do with your preexisting partner becomes a possibility with the new partner.

It would still bother me if my partner did that to me though, of course. Grrrr ...

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
IMO, limiting it to "firsts" (or polyamory, for that matter) is unnecessarily constraining.

Two decades ago, I was picking up my gf (Nancy) to go out for dinner. I'd just found out that the next week one of my favorite local bands was playing nearby (parking is a MAJOR consideration in Minneapolis), & due to my schedule I hadn't seen 'em in many months. Naturally, I asked Nancy if she wanted to go.

Out of nowhere, she practically bit my head off. She laid into me about how tight her schedule was & she had a dance practice that night anyway & "why do we ALWAYS have to go see THAT band?!?" -- so let's say it was a tour de force of making me seem amazingly stupid.

I've got no problem going to performances by myself, especially when I know a couple dozen fellow fans, but I was so discouraged that I couldn't bring myself to go, & found other stuff to do.

On our next date, she excitedly told about how GREAT the show had been. She'd decided to skip dance practice & round up a few friends (& I got the strange impression that I didn't actually deserve that categorization).
________________

Oh, one more. Back in 1995, I was all excited that the new version of Richard III was about to open in local theaters. Nancy always complained about how I didn't like going to movies on a date -- well, duh, because I prefer actual interaction to mere shared experience -- so this seemed perfect. We made a date for Thursday evening.

She took a friend to se it Wednesday night.

"Oh, well, no big thing, I can go see it again... if you want..."

I still haven't seen it.
________________

Films, readings, galleries, restaurants... I never knew when Nancy would choose to zing me. I guess the amazing part is that I kept inviting her!!

(Sure enough, she found sushi disgusting to even THINK about -- like literally nauseating -- but would act peeved if I went without her.)

Though now that I think of it, near the end, she did lay into me for "not inviting ME to any of your little get-togethers!" I calmly pointed out that I'd invited her to EVERY such event in the previous three months, then I turned & left.
 
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