When Life Goals Change - Help with Advice / Comfort

I think that message is eloquent, assertive, and beautiful. Have you sent it yet? If not, add the part about "if I'd already had a child when we met..." because that's very pertinent.

And for the record, no one here in the "have a baby with Wolf anyway" camp recommended being adversarial about it. There's a difference between being assertive and being aggressive. As evidenced by the message you've written to them, one can stand up for oneself without being adversarial. But just remember, no one else has the right to tell a woman what she's "allowed" to do with her womb.
 
I think that message is eloquent, assertive, and beautiful. Have you sent it yet? If not, add the part about "if I'd already had a child when we met..." because that's very pertinent.
I wish I'd had the "already had a baby" point before I sent it, but I didn't. But you're right; it's very relevant.

And thank you for the kind words about my message. I tried very hard to be civil but firm. <3

And for the record, no one here in the "have a baby with Wolf anyway" camp recommended being adversarial about it. There's a difference between being assertive and being aggressive. As evidenced by the message you've written to them, one can stand up for oneself without being adversarial. But just remember, no one else has the right to tell a woman what she's "allowed" to do with her womb.

You're right. There's a definite difference. I'm glad that I managed the one without the other. ^_^
 
Hi, sorry I've come to this thread late. Obviously you've gotten some great feedback already.

I just wanted to add a voice of support. And to recommend you yourself BELIEVE you are an equal. You seem to fear thinking of yourself as "selfish" and have erred on the side of self-effacement.

Having been around the poly block a while, I have to say we here on the board have seen your situation over and over and over again. An established couple takes in a quiet self effacing "third," and uses her (yes, you've been used) as free nanny and housekeeper, then the legal wife gets jealous somewhere along the line and pulls the "couple privilege" card.

It's a shame Wolf has allowed this to be a Bat/Lioness thing. He seems to have checked out and just watched the catfight.

I find it horrifying that you and Lioness go back a decade and had a 3 year relationship of your own before she met, married and spawned with Wolf, and she is now treating you this way, saying you don't love her enough, yada yada. But, it's the usual way! We have seen those exact words from other "unicorns," about jealous wives, and its ridiculous.

I especially feel for you, since I was a nanny for 3 years for a family who had 3 month old twin boys and an older daughter when I began working for them. I know exactly how much work multiples are and how incredibly exhausting and stressful infant and toddler care is for them.

So for 7 months, you've been a fulltime parent to children not biologically yours. You worked full time. Have both bio parents also been working full time since the twins were born as well?

How are Lioness and Wolf gonna like it when nice little Bat isn't there to pick up the gaps in childcare for the twins and their sister? If they plan to both keep working full time they are going to have to shell out the big bucks for childcare. Serves them right.

I am sad you all didn't look up how triads work (or don't work). There is a book and website called More Than Two, with sections on the rights of "secondaries."

https://www.morethantwo.com/polyforsecondaries.html

And honey, you are a secondary. Lioness is selfish. She is running roughshod over you. She thinks of you as lesser.

You don't need permission from her or him to do anything. You shouldn't have said "allowed" in your email. Please stop thinking you need anyone's permission to live your life as you see fit. Stop it for now, and don't let it be a part of your mindset as you move forward looking for a boyfriend/husband or sperm donor.

I really fear this mindset of Lioness, her agenda, is set in stone in her head. Sure, try counseling. I doubt she will want to. Maybe Wolf will? I don't know. But you will benefit from individual counseling.

Polyamory doesn't mean "triads." Most poly tangles do NOT include triads. Much more often, a V works better. You could even seek a monogamous guy and do away with poly experimentation until your hypothetical child is, or children are, older. Personally, I gave parenting my children my all, and didn't begin living polyamorously until they were late teens/early 20s.
 
I agree with Mags 110%.
 
Thank you, Magdyln. And I don't know that you're late. I feel like maybe you came in as the cavalry when I needed it most. (Thanks you too for the backup, Dagferi. Every additional voice has helped me realize that I deserve better.)

Having been around the poly block a while, I have to say we here on the board have seen your situation over and over and over again. An established couple takes in a quiet, self effacing "third," and uses her (yes, you've been used) as free nanny and housekeeper, then the legal wife gets jealous somewhere along the line and pulls the "couple privilege" card.

I think I needed someone to say it. I've been feeling it, but worried that it was just me. Maybe that's how it is for someone who is in a physically abusive relationship too.

I have been used. I have been promised to be an equal and delivered only secondary status.

Thank you.

It's a shame Wolf has allowed this to be a Bat/Lioness thing. He seems to have checked out and just watched the catfight.
I feel a little of this too. He has tried to be reassuring and says that he will do whatever we need to help make this work (like taking 3 kid duties so we can get [more] dates if we need them), but otherwise I've kind of felt like he's left it to me to "stand up" to her about my needs, even though he's claimed the needs are shared.

Have both bio parents also been working full time since the twins were born as well?

Yes, we all work full time. Wolf and I make about the same annually, Lioness makes about what we do combined. In order to live as a family, I currently have an hour commute to and from work. I suspect now that Lioness is concerned that I am not bringing enough to the table financially for Us to consider Baby 4, as she's just now said "my former list of concerns didn't even address practicalities like paying for college, fees and costs associated with when they get into extracurriculars, cars, car insurance, etc."

So, I am left feeling that apparently it's okay for me to help finance her three children, but that sharing the cost of my one would just be too much to ask for.

I am sad you all didn't look up how triads work (or don't work). There is a book and website called More Than Two, with sections on the rights of "secondaries."

https://www.morethantwo.com/polyforsecondaries.html

And honey, you are a secondary. Lioness is selfish. She is running roughshod over you. She thinks of you as lesser.

First, you're right. She is and has.

Thank you for the link-- it helped, and I'm going to share it with them too, along with the Letter to Unicorn Hunters someone else suggested.

Sadly, I am reading More Than Two right now, in the little free time I have. I guess I must not have gotten to the secondaries section yet... or, worse, I have, but only skimmed it because I was promised that I was an equal.

I have, of course, realized now that I am not an equal.

For now, I am taking a step back from Our relationship. I would rather be a mother to Wolf's child in another household than coparent with her right now. (Assuming, of course, that Lioness will allow him to procreate outside of their marriage.) Although, as I said, he has mentioned before that he would not be in favor of such an arrangement, so I'm not going to push for it.

I would also be content to try Us as a V, but Lioness has previously said that she refuses to be in a relationship where she is not involved with Wolf's other partner. (Unicorn Hunter, much?)

Regardless, I know that I'm a G.D. gem, and if they can't appreciate it, I will be fine on my own.
 
Regardless, I know that I'm a G.D. gem, and if they can't appreciate it, I will be fine on my own.

Yay you! I heard thunderous applause in my head as I was reading that line. :)
 
Regardless, I know that I'm a G.D. gem, and if they can't appreciate it, I will be fine on my own.
Stick to that. You are great.
Thank you, Magdyln. And I don't know that you're late. I feel like maybe you came in as the cavalry when I needed it most. (Thanks you too for the backup, Dagferi. Every additional voice has helped me realize that I deserve better.)
Well then one more voice from me.
he's left it to me to "stand up" to her about my needs, even though he's claimed the needs are shared.
Could test him a little. You could say "if you want child four, I would like you to support me. Those are the ways to support me best ___ (tell Lioness he wants child four and can work around the problems, insist that breaking the original agreement is not fair to you and him,.. or something else)." His answer will indicate pretty clearly, if he, too, sees you as secondary.
From his lack of action I already suspect he does.
she's just now said "my former list of concerns didn't even address practicalities like paying for college, fees and costs associated with when they get into extracurriculars, cars, car insurance, etc."

So, I am left feeling that apparently it's okay for me to help finance her three children, but that sharing the cost of my one would just be too much to ask for.
Yes. Money tends to be an excuse at best. She seems to know, that's why she didn't bring it up in her original list, only now in the heat of the moment.
 
More Than Two is essential reading and if you have any extra time to squeeze it in, you could do with looking into The Game Changer:A Memoir of Disruptive Love. Franklin Veaux describes how he came to realize that insisting that additional relationships conform to the shape he and his "primary" partner prearranged for them was unfair and destructive to all involved. Lioness also might benefit if she could read it without feeling put upon.

Leetah
 
Hi LSB,

Just wanted to let you know that I support you 100%, and agree that Lioness isn't playing fair (and that Wolf is letting her get away with it).

With many respects and regards,
Kevin T.
 
I'm sorry, LittleSingingBat. It does appear you've been used. Out of curiosity, is Lioness out to her family and friends about the nature of your relationship?

It's sad that she's so focused on what she feels she'd be contributing/giving up for the family that she can't see the contribution you've made (which is worth far more than just the extra $$ she'd contribute to your child!) She'll realize when you're gone and she no longer has a live-in nanny that pays her to care for her children.

And, I'm sorry that Wolf appears to be going along with whatever Lioness wants. You deserve better than that from the man you love.
 
RainyGrlJenny, Tinwin, Leetah, Kevin, and PinkPig, I sincerely appreciate that you took the time to read, process, and respond too.

Thank you all so much. <3

I told Lioness and Wolf where I stand (that I'm taking a step back), and I also sent them the More Than Two links on both Secondaries and Couples Privilege. I also sent the Letter to Unicorn Hunters.

Lioness read them all. She said that the Unicorn Hunter one, in particular, resonated with her in a way that made her step back and say, "Whoa, I have been doing that." She even talked about how she realizes she hasn't given up her "base" with Wolf and stated that she needs to do more in that vein.

I also talked to Wolf briefly today and told him that, if he wants this, he needs to be more assertive about it. He needs to tell Lioness that this is a Life Goal for him, too, and to reassure her that we can make it work. He says that he has told her that he wants this, and I have told him that I need to see it. Then, later, he texted us both to say that he wants to talk tonight, at least a little.

I am hopeful but skeptical. As I said before, I don't think Lioness is malicious-- just kind of narrow-sighted sometimes and pretty stubborn. Maybe this will help broaden her scope some and she will see how lucky we've all been, and how good we have had it, and some real change from this.

I won't relinquish my assertions though, so we shall see.

But I wanted to say, thank you all so much for the advice and links! Who knew that they might make all the difference? And even if they don't, your support has meant the world to me. Thank you.

I'm sorry, LittleSingingBat. It does appear you've been used. Out of curiosity, is Lioness out to her family and friends about the nature of your relationship?

Actually, Lioness's family knows (and they aren't entirely happy. Most everyone is of the "prove to us it works" camp, although her mother hates it. More on that if you want to know.

My family knows and is loving and supporting. They don't understand, per se, but they want to take care of me. They worry that I might get hurt. Side note, my mother was elated to suddenly have three children to dote on as grandchildren. XD

Wolf's family does not know. They are... fairly conservative people. The upside is that they already like me and admire how much I have done for the children. I've essentially been made "family by choice" by them, so we're hoping that helps. Wolf, Lioness, and I have been working on how to tell them for awhile now-- they had some life stressors that took precedent before, but we were planning to tell them soon.
 
I tried to post this once but my internet connection failed just as I got it written:

LittleSingingBat, you are a brave woman! It is delightful to read how you are claiming your rights, heading towards your happiness. I truly hope you will one day get the baby you want!

Yes, one more voice for you appear to have been used. Your contribution to the family so far is huge. Trust me, you have been greatly helping both Lioness and Wolf to keep their mental health intact - time with babies and toddlers is so hard that many exhaust themselves and might get depressed. That, plus the money you have provided... wow!

I am glad that you yourself see your own worth. Here is hoping that Lioness would see it, too!
 
Thank you, Nadya!

Last night we talked, and Wolf plainly told Lioness that he, too, wants Baby 4, and would still like to start trying for him/her around mid to late April next year.

Both Lioness and Wolf reaffirmed that they want us to be primary partners all, and our action plan starts with going over the articles together and exploring how they relate to Us. We will use them as a basis to communicate our feelings and decide how to move forward in a manner that is healthy for us all.

Lioness has not yet changed her stance of "I'm not sure I want Baby 4," but I am standing firm and letting them know that if they value me as a partner, then Baby 4 is part of the package deal. I have told them that I will not be ready to re-commit to our relationship until Lioness can tell me something along the lines of "Hey, even if I'm still nervous/have concerns, I am dedicated to you, your Life Goal, and Our relationship. We will make Baby 4 a reality by X date."

I also asked Lioness to try to decipher why she is so worried that she and I aren't at the same place with each other that we are with Wolf, to name whether it might be fear that he'll leave her for me or jealousy of the attention/affection we show each other. I told her that if we identify the true nature of the feelings, we can address them.

In addition, I asked Lioness to explore her feelings on shifting to a V relationship, splitting finances, or how she would feel about me raising Wolf's child in another household. I don't know what she'll say, but I'm hoping that it will at least get her thinking about different ways we could approach Our relationship.

As for me, I feel good about sticking to my guns, but I admit I'm a little concerned-- what if Lioness tells me "Okay, we'll try for Baby 4 in April" and then, come April, she changes her mind? I will absolutely leave the relationship then, but is there anything else to be done? It is hard to go on faith again, after having been let down once (even if she says she didn't realize it was an immutable life goal then.)

Thanks again for all the help and support!
 
Hey there LSB,

It sounds to me like you are already doing everything you can do. Some of the responsibility has to fall on Lioness' shoulders; you can't do it all. The only thing I can suggest right now is for the three of you to continue communicating (often).

Hang in there!
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Thank you, Kevin. I think you're right...it's just hard to sit back and wait, you know?

On a slightly off topic note, I have another question to pose to you all-

Lioness's nuclear family has a family vacation coming up soon. It has been planned for some time now (well before I was in the picture), and Lioness, Wolf, and the children are all going away for a week.

Lioness's family has made it clear that I am not welcome, even if plans could be changed. (No one, not even Lioness, has said, "if we could bring you, we would!") So, when it came up in conversation before, I tended to be a little sad about it. Nothing big, just, "That week is going to be hard for me," or "I'm really going to miss you all."

At one point, Lioness said, "I don't like that every time this comes up, you get upset about it. It makes me feel like I shouldn't talk about it with you, and I don't like that." Since then, I've just kept my mouth shut and tried to at least be neutral, if not positive about it.

What I want to know is, was Lioness right to ask that of me? She has not once said that she wishes things were different and that I could come. I honestly don't know if she's even said she'll miss me (without some prompting).

I ask because, if it were my family vacation, even if it were already planned, we would find a way to include my family unit. (Actually, my family is planning our first real vacation in over ten years and they already made sure to let me know that my whole family unit is welcome. It was a very heartwarming moment!)

Anyway, I think what I would like is a little more empathy from Lioness. I am glad that she gets to see her family (like a sibling that's been overseas), but I would also like the recognition that her family is not being entirely kind to me and that it is okay for me to be sad and miss my family while they're gone. Is that desire a valid one?

Thanks, everyone. <3
 
Hi LSB,

I think your feelings about the pending family vacation are appropriate and to be expected. Lioness isn't being very kind. Does Wolf act the same way, or is he more empathetic?

Sympathetically,
Kevin T.
 
Hi LittleSingingBat :)

First I just want to say, wow, I'm impressed with how hard you are working on your relationships. It sounds like an incredibly difficult situation and you are handling it with honesty and grace.

Second, all feelings are valid. Are you feeling it? Then it's a valid feeling. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, it doesn't matter if it's rational, it doesn't even matter if it's healthy or appropriate. It's a FEELING. We all have them. They are all valid.

(Personally I would feel exactly the same way in your shoes, but, you know, that's beside the point ;))

Third, the way Lioness is behaving... Oh hell no. I'm not even talking about her complaining that you're sad, although that's downright cruel. But why isn't she standing up for you to her family? Why isn't she saying, if my entire family can't go, none of us will go?

What would she do if it was Wolf who wasn't invited? Or one of her kids? That's what she should do now, for you.

She has options here, besides leaving you alone and being cold about it. She could, as I've said above, skip it in the name of family unity. She could go alone, so that she's not privileging Wolf over you, but treating both partners the same. Or she could take YOU instead of Wolf, get some of that relationship building stuff she claims to want with you.

Maybe she should try reading those couple privilege articles again :cool:

I really hope everything works out for you, Bat. I understand that you don't want to push everyone so far that they break... Just don't let yourself get hurt too much.
 
What Clare said. If ANY other member of your family was asked to be left behind - Wolf, or one of the kids - Lioness wouldn't do it. This is a great opportunity for her to commit to treating you as an equal by actually doing it. She might WANT to treat you like an equal, maybe even likes it as an ideal, but she's being incredibly rude by leaving you out of a family holiday and then acting like you should just be quiet about it.

Why do you WANT to be in a relationship with this person, again? She sounds abusive. Any partner who asks you to keep your sadness to yourself because it bothers her sweet, little married world of two is abusive. Any partner who acts like your feelings not only don't matter, but are actually a bothersome thing, is abusive. She sounds incredibly selfish and nasty.
 
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By the way, sorry if I sound too angry in my posts. I am new to poly, as I've said. But it just really rubs me the wrong way when I see sweet, and very giving people like yourself being taking advantage of by people like lioness. There's nothing wrong with being a full-on, take care of your own needs type person like she is. But if you are, then it's better to know that part of your personality and temper it by taking extra care to look out for people you care about and ensure you're treating them properly. I don't think she's treating you well and, as I said, her behaviour sounds abusive (or at least bordering on it). If a partner is sad, like you are about this holiday, a compassionate and loving response is to be caring and empathetic towards them, even IF she thinks she can't change the circumstances of the holiday, she could still tell you that she is sorry you are sad and she wishes her family was more understanding. But the thing is, she clearly doesn't have a problem speaking up, so why isn't she standing up to her family and saying 'singing bat is part of the family, she gets the same love and respect and me, wolf and the kids'? I could understand it if she was a more shy and quiet person like yourself. But she's not. So why isn't she standing up to her family on your behalf? Because it's just not worth her bother, that's why. She doesn't value you enough, and she knows you will meekly accept it (or at least you would have in the past).

I'd bring it up with both of them as an example where you are not treated as equal, and she is de-valuing your feelings. No more 'I want to be an equal' (as in, in the future) - either you're equal by now, or you're not. You don't really have to wait until April, her response to this holiday and whether she decides to support you in front of her family and invite you along will tell you where she stands.
 
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I have and would in a heart beat told family, friends, whomever to take a long walk off a short pier when they have attempted to leave Murf out of anything.

If they will not include him then they have no part in my life.

I have cut my own mother out of my life for her feelings on my life. I haven't spoken to her in 4 years.
 
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