My Journey from agnostic - atheist

I'm not saying that swindling people out of money is right. I don't believe that at all. I'm not sure if I'd call it hostile though. I don't know if the members of her church are "true believers" or just misguided. But you do sound like you're very hostile towards their organization.

I guess I'm just cautioning you to be very careful not to push her even further into the church's waiting arms.
 
Ok, well we dont even talk about what happens at her meetings, or what they are teaching her, but when my opinion is asked for, I try and be polite and civil, and state my case in an assertive way.

I was thinking that her seeing these people 3 times in one week is a bit much. But, to be fair, Ive been away 3 weeks, - 1 week for work, 2 weeks personal. So I guess she feels she hasnt been out for 3 weeks out all, so I dont begrudge her going out last night.
 
Learn her language

This is exactly what I'm up against at home, and "nothing you can say" rings true to me. So, I'm sure you'll agree theres no point in discussing it with her, is there? :(

I don't agree. I do, however, think you have to approach the discussion a different way.

You and your wife are speaking different religious languages. One of you has to learn the other's language.

Please understand: Learning to speak Christian has nothing to do with accepting dogma. It means figuring out how speak in terms of myth and story. People do this all the time, using all sorts of literature. We make casual references to Mr. Spock or Gilligan or Beaver Cleaver to refer to a larger concept in shorthand. So learn to do the same using Christian language.

For example, there's a Biblical passage about removing the board from your own eye before complaining about the mote in your neighbor's eye -- this is about projection. There's a passage in which Peter asks Jesus what will become of the "Beloved Disciple" -- this is about minding boundaries.

I recommend a book to you:
Remedial Christianity: What Every Believer Should Know about the Faith, but Probably Doesn't
by Paul Lana Laughlin
Polebridge Press -- the Jesus Seminar folks

Now I understand that you think the book has nothing to offer you in terms of your own religious needs or lack thereof.

But that's NOT the point.

The book might have something to offer your wife. If you read and learn the book, you might develop an ability to talk with her in a way that allows her to explore /examine her own faith more deeply.

Then the two of you just might find a way to communicate with each other on this challenging issue.

Jasmine
 
Sorry, but I find that just not great discussion skill. WHY on earth would anyone tell you that they'd doubt their beliefs?
The idea is based on whether someone is being dogmatic or being skeptical. You can not outargue dogma. If someone says nothing will change their mind, you are dealing with dogma. If someone says something like "If XXX happened or if YYY happened, then I may change my belief" you may be dealing with someone who is open minded enough to evaluate their own belief.

For example, I can say that if God wrote his name in the stars I would believe he is real. That is not the only way, but it shows I am open to evidence to show God is real.

I talk to a lot of people who admit doubt of their beliefs. (I am a scientist and work around other scientists, so it may have more to do with scientific training.) While about 70% of the scientists I know are atheists (or nonbelievers) there is 30% who are religious. However, they are very light on the dogma. For example, several have said that all religions are pathways to heaven even though they identify as Christian.
 
The idea is based on whether someone is being dogmatic or being skeptical. You can not outargue dogma. If someone says nothing will change their mind, you are dealing with dogma. If someone says something like "If XXX happened or if YYY happened, then I may change my belief" you may be dealing with someone who is open minded enough to evaluate their own belief.

That is not always true, if someone has already passed the point where XXX happened and they changed their beliefs to believe in God. Than why would they change their mind? Dogma is a powerful tool, but sometimes people have real experiences that change their belief and you can't argue against those either; because they are personal.

I believe that God is real, but I also believe in spirits/ ghosts; after living in a haunted house for 2 years you'd be hard pressed to convince me they aren't. But that is my point, OP is taking a stance that because he stopped believing, his wife should too. Because her churches dogma threatens him in XYZ ways, it sounds like he feels like she chooses them over him when to her it might not be that simple.
 
For now, we avoid the topic. My way of reducing the tension between us to just talk about everything else. Having been away for 3 weeks, theres lots to talk about, and it relieves any tension I thought there was.

For now, I'm not interested in reading any christian book, the same as she told me on the weekend she would not read any Richard Dawkins book. So there we are.

Yesterday we had lunch with a muslim who was bemoaning the fact the fiance would not do xyz during their engagement period.

So I used the opportunity to say that 2 adults dont have to follow tradition/culture. If the 2 adults agree to do something different, as long as they agree, then surely thats fine?

To my surprise, he and my wife agreed with me! A small result for me, but a slightly encouraging one.
 
All,
A very dear friend, who has become very important to me in the space of just two weeks,

has read this thread, and has, metaphorically speaking, given me a fat smack on the head !!! :D:D:D

But, not for what I believe/dont believe, but for trying to live like this and do nothing about the issue at hand ! They correctly, with love in their voice, told me that I am avoiding confrontation, and they are correct.

Had a chat with the wife, and her and I have agreed to therapy (in spite of my bad experience last time) - I go alone first, and perhaps she'll join me later.

:)

I feel so much better now that I have a plan, rather than doing nothing except be frustrated by the whole thing.
 
Good for you. BTW, I told you that a month ago.

Such timidity on your part! I think you need to take charge of your life more, and make your marriage more of a partnership where you both work on goals together. Either that, or why do you stay?

<second smack!>
smiley-taunt006.gif

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I've been thinking, bassman, that your wife putting her spirituality seemingly ahead of her love for you and your importance in her life, as well as ahead of family goals, is not all that unusual or even detrimental. As you can see in the "Spiritual Sex" thread, that poster's spirituality is also perhaps more important to him than those of his wife.

As I see it, it's your wife's "sheepleness" that is the problem. Just swallowing whatever is preached to her from the pulpit each Sunday, instead of examining her faith for herself and how it fits into her marriage and family, on a moral and practical level, that hurts you a lot.

And then, you're so focused on her getting a lover... which doesnt seem at all important to her.
 
I agree with Mags. I also recall some good advice you got from SNeacail back in January:

STOP attacking your wife and her beliefs, it will only make her defend it more. They are what they are, even if you don't agree. However, DO have the discussion how to make the whole relationship more of a partnership. Come up with a list of goals and discuss what it will take to get there. When the both of you can work as partners, and both feel valued as an equal partner, there is less of a desire to fight back.

As far as your finances go, come up with a list of NON-negotiable items like; housing, utilities, groceries, tuition, certain family necessities, savings toward goals, etc.
You each should have a budget for your own personal necessities and extras (shoes, clothes, personal care products, etc.). If she decides she would rather give money to the church instead of going to lunch with her girlfriends or buying the new pair of shoes, that's her choice and it doesn't impact your agreed upon goals. Give her the freedom to follow her heart without sabotaging your partnership.
 
Was awake most of the night thinking about this, and we had a chat about it this morning.

I'll put it all on here later.

We both feel good just talking about it, :) even though we're at opposite end of the spectrum.
 
Cool to see a fellow atheist in the forum. :)
 
Was awake most of the night thinking about this, and we had a chat about it this morning.

I'll put it all on here later.

We both feel good just talking about it, :) even though we're at opposite end of the spectrum.

Explained that I have no beef with faith in the existence of whatever. But I take issue with my life being affected by doctrine/religion. She explained that she is at a point where she doesnt condemn a lot of what she used, like for example, I asked her if same sex couples should be allowed to adopt, and she said yes! ( The church website condemns same sex anything, but I am checking that out - *edit* I checked it out, and theyve changed their minds now, gays are ok SUDDENLY). And then she went on to say that those people can choose same sex if they want, "but its not the choice I would make". But then she said that her choices are made with the scripture in mind.

I was happy to leave it there for now, at least there is progress, and I have something to work with.


Then, before we went out last night to a party, she pulls out this wig, that she says she "earned" on a trip to New Orleans, back in 98. She said she was walking down the street, and commented on somebody's wig. They offered it to her if she flashed her boobs, without the bra, and she says she did !!

I was excited now, you know, there was a glimpse of the fun girl she used to be!

and THAT is the girl I thought I married - yes, she went to church those days, but it was mild, you know, she didnt see the literature as seriously as she does now. So we were out at this party, and we had a good time, but at one point it struck me that who she was then, is not the same as who she is now..... my default thought is to blame the church of course, but , of course its her thats changed, its her thats made the choices, including sending the money, its her that chooses to keep going there to get the message more ingrained.

Unfortunately, this spilled over into anger within me, (I guess its a jealous kind of feeling, that her book is more important than my thinking, or even the welfare of my son - this hurts me more, of course. Indeed, she still wants to send money, but is not, at my request, so I feel i'm holding her back now, actually).

So I had an outburst that attacked her personally last night - and I need to apologise now. I just cant get my feelings of insecurity out without this anger, which why I want therapy - to help me overcome that.


Footnote: This story seems one-sided, so in her favour, I want to let you know that I also made a financial f*ck up, namely, invested in a business that failed, and I had an expensive car, too, when I , of course, shouldnt have.
 
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Things have been going well between us. I see signs of progress everywhere. A year ago, we had a discussion about sex before marriage, and the judgemental comments flowed from her
"Those people shouldnt be doing that"
"thats wrong"
"Those people are damaging themselves"
"those people are selfish"

It was quite refreshing to hear her say this week, that " If sex-workers want to be sex-wokers, then thats fine. But if poeple are being forced to do that, like locked into a room and hardly see the light of day, then that is wrong"

So, she's actually, to her credit, come along quite a bit. When I raised the topic of non-monogamy a year ago, she applied all the above judgemental comment to it, and also added "those people are infidels"

However, lately, her view seems to be that "If those people are choosing to do that, thats fine for them. It wouldnt be my choice, though"

So I see it as progress, at least the judgemental "everyone should live by my rules" stance has been replaced with a more liberal view.

I ve heard a lot of things from her lately that have given me encouragement. I see progress.
 
Religion ... :(

Lighthouses are more helpful then churches. — Benjamin Franklin

Disassociate yourself with churches please!! and if you believe then do your own research and pray if you want to within your own home and family.

THE (non-existant) Almighty GOD doesn't need money to run his imaginary heaven or divine plan
 
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