complicated and unsure

Monoguy

New member
Hello,

I am not sure if this is the right section for this post, but here it goes:

I am a guy who has been monogamous all of my life, and I am a conservative libertarian who is also a Germanic pagan. I have been betrayed over mutliple relationships. I am in the middle of a divorce with a woman who went off of the rails with her cheating. I had asked her if she desired an open marriage (not that I would have agreed) because she was cheating but would not agree to a divorce. She didn't say yes or no. I filed because she is a serial cheater who is also a liar, and obviously toxic and unstable.

I entered into a new relationship with a woman expressing that she was exiting a relationship. We had a mutual attraction and desire over the last few years, but we chose not to cross lines and have an affair. We eventually began an affair, a couple of months after I filed. She broke things off with the man she was living with, though she lived over an hour away, and he tried to salvage their relationship.

She told me about her kinks, and I shared mine. She said she had been in poly relationships in the past, yet she never implied that being in one was a requirement for her. The man she lives with exhibits cluster b traits, and had treated her poorly.

She recently went to his place to pack her things, and ended up sending me messages that she realized she loves us both, and has sexual and emotional desires for us both. She asked if I can be patient with her while she works this out. However, she eventtually says if she can't have us both, she will be unhappy, and is considering leaving the situation entirely. She apologized for not being honest with herself which in turn hurt me, and said she should have been single to heal before entering into a relationship with me, and asked if in lieu of ending things, I would consider being her primary in a relationship, with this guy being the secondary.

Both of us (me, and the "ex") are not thrilled. I emotionally prepared myself to walk if necessary, but this "ex" is basically a cuck. He treated her like garbage (I have heard this from her famiky and friends, and witnessed it first hand,) but he has zero confidence with women and thus will consider the poly.

I have an issue with all of this. If I were to agree to this, I would feel like a cuck. I would feel dirty having sex with her knowing she is having sex with him. Our children from previous relationships are attached, and I would be taking care of all of them and feel that I am putting in all of the work while her time with the childless ex is all "fun and games."

I told her that no matter what happens, someone is going to get hurt. There are many reasons to stay and try, as we have a lot in common and the love I feel is beyond that I have ever experienced, though I understand that I can get over her and find someone new, someday.

I am looking for insight. I am already aware of the moral/ethical implications of how the relationship began. This "ex" brought her to me more than once, and used his professional skills to help me, knowing full well that she was sleeping in my bed. My issues is that I am a monogamous person, I thought this "ex" was going to be history, I don't know if I can handle the stresses of a primary life while the secondary gets to have some of her time physically and emotionally for no effort or work, and that she gets all of the benefits while I make the sacrifices.

I view polyamory as a utopian ideal where my life will be spent in a dystopian state of mind and emotion. I have a form of ocd which requires that aspects of my life are in harmonious balance. If she is having sex with another man, I will require a secondary relationship of my own, despite my monogamy, in order to offset my sacrifice (and not feeling like a cuck.) She knows many poly women and has offered to intoduce me to some of them, as long as we maintain our primary relationship, because she wants to have that with me for life, regardless of the presence of secondary partners.
 
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Please break up with this woman.
 
Hello Monoguy,

It seems to me that you are strongly monogamous, and probably won't be happy with polyamory. Aside the facts that this other fellow is a Cluster B type, and treats her badly, and that he will have all of the fun while you do all of the work ... it also seems to me that you are being pressured into this. Certainly it is not your idea, nor your ideal. So I'm not sure if you can honestly consent to this. Maybe you can if you have your own secondary, though I don't know how likely it is that you can get that. You can of course try. But I am inclined to suggest that you walk away from this situation. Ultimately you'll have to decide. I know you said that your relationship with this woman has many positives, so walking away certainly wouldn't be easy. :(

You are in a tight spot, I don't envy you.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Hello Monoguy,

It seems to me that you are strongly monogamous, and probably won't be happy with polyamory. Aside the facts that this other fellow is a Cluster B type, and treats her badly, and that he will have all of the fun while you do all of the work ... it also seems to me that you are being pressured into this. Certainly it is not your idea, nor your ideal. So I'm not sure if you can honestly consent to this. Maybe you can if you have your own secondary, though I don't know how likely it is that you can get that. You can of course try. But I am inclined to suggest that you walk away from this situation. Ultimately you'll have to decide. I know you said that your relationship with this woman has many positives, so walking away certainly wouldn't be easy. :(

You are in a tight spot, I don't envy you.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

A brother of mine who is a swinger suggested that I keep an open mind, but has his doubts that I will be happy, though he agrees that I would need to foster a secondary relationship in order to tolerate the presence of the "ex."

I feel that this posits an interesting scenario. I have been researching alternative lifestyles (and have many friends/family involved in different ones, and I am in the biker community, so it isn't all that uncommon for weird scenarios,) and also study psychology. Abused significant others often haveba difficult time breaking away from an abusive partner, and I feel that this is one of tbose situations. However, whether I agree to this, or I walk away and she is in a poly woth him and someone else, the abusive factor will still be present, and other partners will probably be affected.

She and I have A LOT in common. In fact, I joke that in many ways, she is the female version of me. She has NOTHING in common with this guy. I said to her, "you know that because of his cluster b, hebwill never actually love you, right?" My brother said that love dies hard. He was worried about me because he knew she was poly and enjoyed other things outside of my box and that he felt I would face challenges that might not necessarily be impossible, but difficult.

He implored that I put myself first becausecI am ultimately responsible for my happiness. The way I look at it, we had an exit affair after theee years of being star crossed, and I may lose her either way. I have felt sick abouy it all day, though I read that that is common for newcomers to this thing. I may back out, but I am taking it minute by minute. The "ex" might also back out. Inwill know more later tonight.

I know I csn live without her, as I have lived life without her. I do love her, and she is not my possession (thiugh that is how the "ex" treated her.
 
If she is having sex with another man, I will require a secondary relationship of my own, despite my monogamy, in order to offset my sacrifice

I read that entire post and every word of it is a red flag.
Every. Word.

Please don't do this. People are not playthings, or stop gaps to placate your emotional pitfalls.

Please, please, please, don't be yet another person who uses people like this. Be better than this, make an adult decision, and step away from a life that is balls deep in unnecessary drama.
 
I read that entire post and every word of it is a red flag.
Every. Word.

Please don't do this. People are not playthings, or stop gaps to placate your emotional pitfalls.

Please, please, please, don't be yet another person who uses people like this. Be better than this, make an adult decision, and step away from a life that is balls deep in unnecessary drama.

I can see that, though isn't this poly thing supposed to be customizable in order for everyone involved to be happy? I wouldn't be using anyone. I would foster a secondary relationship (-if- I am in this relationship at all.) I would be completely hinest with a potential secondary, depsite my honesty having gotten me no where in this world but betrayed.

In fact, I see so many people having sex with other people other than their main partner (either openly or clandestinely,) and have been cheated on so many times over the years, that it seems the options are to be celibate, have casual sex without commitments, or have a relationship with other partners and boundaries even if I feel sick about it.

The world is changing in ways that I don't like, so I can try to be fluid, I guess.
 
The man she lives with exhibits cluster b traits, and had treated her poorly.

This is not your problem. She is the one picking him out to date.

she should have been single to heal before entering into a relationship with me, and asked if in lieu of ending things, I would consider being her primary in a relationship, with this guy being the secondary.

And you can say "No, thank you. Too weird for me. I do not want to be in a poly V where your other partner treats you like garbage and I'm supposed to pretend I don't see that."

though he agrees that I would need to foster a secondary relationship in order to tolerate the presence of the "ex."

I disagree with your brother on that.

Be easiest to deal with the ex by not even being in this woman's poly network to begin with rather than finding a 4th person to to be your secondary to make all this "endurable." People are not "bandaids" or something.

Abused significant others often haveba difficult time breaking away from an abusive partner, and I feel that this is one of tbose situations.

So wait to date her AFTER she has been single for a while and shown she's done with this guy's abuse and actually healed. She herself says she should have been single first. Encourage her to do that and do her healing.


However, whether I agree to this, or I walk away and she is in a poly with him and someone else, the abusive factor will still be present, and other partners will probably be affected.

So how is that a tasty sounding offer for YOU if you too would be affected? Why sign up for that?

It isn't your job to be HER "bandaid" person so she can better endure being with him while he treats her like garbage.

He implored that I put myself first becauseI am ultimately responsible for my happiness. The way I look at it, we had an exit affair after theee years of being star crossed, and I may lose her either way.

There I do agree with your brother. You ARE ultimately responsible for your happiness.

You don't sound happy doing this. You don't admire the Dude. You don't sound like you esp admire her for picking this Dude out. So how can you feel proud of YOUR behavior if you choose to take up with these people?

If you are up for poly with her? You can say "I'd be for poly with you. But NOT if this dude is your other partner and in your poly network. So no. I'm bowing out. You can look me up if you are ever free of him."

And leave it at that. It was an exit affair. And you both exited.

She went back to him

Ergo you can be done with it all and seek a healthier dating situation than this.

Galagirl
 
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I entered into a new relationship with a woman expressing that she was exiting a relationship. We had a mutual attraction and desire over the last few years, but we chose not to cross lines and have an affair. We eventually began an affair, a couple of months after I filed. She broke things off with the man she was living with, though she lived over an hour away, and he tried to salvage their relationship.

She told me about her kinks, and I shared mine. She said she had been in poly relationships in the past, yet she never implied that being in one was a requirement for her. The man she lives with exhibits cluster b traits, and had treated her poorly.

She recently went to his place to pack her things, and ended up sending me messages that she realized she loves us both, and has sexual and emotional desires for us both. She asked if I can be patient with her while she works this out. However, she eventtually says if she can't have us both, she will be unhappy, and is considering leaving the situation entirely.

My issues is that I am a monogamous person, I thought this "ex" was going to be history, I don't know if I can handle the stresses of a primary life while the secondary gets to have some of her time physically and emotionally for no effort or work, and that she gets all of the benefits while I make the sacrifices.

Intentionally or not, I feel you were "suckered into" this potential polyamorous relationship either by deliberate dishonesty or gross disingenuity on the part of your current love interest.

You've known her a long time. You already knew she is, or has been, poly.
So far, both of you had resisted having an affair (while you were still married to your last, toxic spouse) because you're mono and didn't want to cheat.

Then she (new love) finds out you're divorcing your wife and lets you believe she is also leaving her current partner. She claims she's about to break up and move out. But she doesn't. During the moving out process, she "suddenly realises" she has feelings for you BOTH: you, and this man who abuses her and treats her like shit. Yet for some reason she still wants him in her life - in both of your lives, essentially - despite the raw deal this would be from your perspective.

And there are kids involved somewhere in the mix. She wants you to be primary partner and, hence, take on the financial and emotional responsibility of being a caregiver/parent to both your/her(?) children... but doesn't want to drop this other, less-than-stellar relationship. He'll stick around just for the fun times/sex(?)

Like I say, I could be wrong about this, but be extremely careful about being used to fill a role this other man can't/won't step up and take on... while consenting to be part of some dysfunctional, drama-filled V relationship. You and whatever kids are involved do not need that.

If she is having sex with another man, I will require a secondary relationship of my own, despite my monogamy, in order to offset my sacrifice (and not feeling like a cuck.)

While I understand the desire to have everything fair/equal and balanced, the above described scenario almost sounds like you'd be "revenge dating" someone else simply in order to even a perceived score with the first woman.

i.e. The issues you're experiencing with current woman and her "ex" partner have nothing to do with any potential future partner YOU may choose to become involved with, therefore I disagree that anyone should be used for the purposes of evening up a score or balancing out another relationship.

I must also state that IF you were to consent to do poly in which a female partner has two male partners (such as the V you describe), it doesn't automatically make one of the other male a "cuck" by default. It all hinges on CONSENT and a willingness to be involved in such a dynamic, as these things often do.

You are currently feeling pressured into this, and like you're being given little choice by your new partner, which is probably where the feeling of being a cuckold stems from. And in this regard, I agree, although I take issue with the language to some extent.
 
... it seems the options are to be celibate, have casual sex without commitments, or have a relationship with other partners and boundaries even if I feel sick about it.

That is grim. End of the world, black skies, grim.

Going forward with this bleak outlook, do you really feel like you are in an emotional place to be in even one traditional romantic relationship? Let alone multiple?

My strong suggestion is for you to be single for a while. Get individual therapy until you stop feeling the need to carry around all of this baggage. Find yourself in a place where you understand your part in your life, and stop claiming victim status. THEN begin to consider thinking about getting into a new traditional romantic relationship.
 
I view polyamory as a utopian ideal where my life will be spent in a dystopian state of mind and emotion.

Then don't have polyamorous relationships!

Know your own mind and stick to it. Nobody messes with someone who knows clearly what he is all about. Why do you suppose that all of these wildly unstable people and situations are glomming onto you? It's not really that complicated, but you certainly are unsure. Why do you hold polyamory as a utopian ideal? Why not simply see it as a valid relationship choice that, so far as you know, is not your personal preference and does not work for you in particular? It is not some failing on your part that poly doesn't sit right with you, it's just your preference for a more monogamous agreement. Clarity in your own mind is the fist step in finding harmony with others.
 
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That is grim. End of the world, black skies, grim.

I am a dark person, and so is she. We are gothic by nature (the "ex" is not, amdnis a square.) I am very cynical, am the way that I am due to having an absuive father who died when I was young and a neglectful mother who doted on my sister. I feel that leftist thought processes have irrevocably changed the world and have made it difficult, and in some locations impossible, for a monogamous traditionalist conservative to thrive and be happy. I completely understand why, despite my intellect, I am the way that I am and fin myself in the situations that I do.

In my last marriage, I walked on eggshells until the final year. I do not walk on eggshells with this pokycentric woman, and have been very clear about hiw ai feel about eberythung that has occurred. This is a woman who doesn't like to apologize and will stand her ground, though she has been very apologetic about "realizing" that she is having a jard time letting go of the "ex" and for hurting me in the process.

I would also like to note that I have been poly-curious in the past (exploring religious reasons for more than one wife during my first marriage, before becoming a pagan,) and that (despite possibly being judged by everyone for this) I am patriarchal by nature, which is anither reason I have issues with MFM situation, especially woth this particular guy.

My gf is also bisexual, and when we had poly discussions, I had said that if I could step outside of my box, I would be more comfortable with a MFF relationship since it woukd then be equal, I wouldn't have hangups, and she could fully embrace her nature.

Everyone is bringing up great points, and I appreciate it.

I suppose that the issue is the presence of the "ex" moreso than me facing a poly/mono situation. They spent the day together yesterday and he dropped her off at my house last night. She told me about all of the strife and thanked menfor not saying "I told you so." I also told her I have thoughts and feelings but that I would wait until today to bring them up, since she had to process what happened with him. She thanked me for that as well.
 
Re (from Monoguy):
"She and I have *a lot* in common. In fact, I joke that in many ways, she is the female version of me. She has *nothing* in common with this guy."

It's obvious to me that she is a perfect match for you, and he is an awful match for her. I don't understand why she is so blind to that fact.

Re:
"I said to her, 'You know that because of his Cluster B, he will never actually love you, right?'"

How did she respond when you said that?

Re:
"My brother said that love dies hard."

I guess that explains her mindset to some extent. But I am still having trouble understanding it. Surely love doesn't die *that* hard? How could it?
 
I cannot speak for her, Kevin. And I might guess wrong but if I did guess? I would guess it's like my friend X.

X is the most recent friend of mine to leave an abusive situation. She had to leave PHYSICALLY before she could heal and be able to "leave" mentally, emotionally, spiritually, etc.

But because she was abused with a lot of mind games and emotionally entangled with her abuser? Her mind and heart would not allow her to leave physically of her own volition.

If he hadn't kicked her out (again) and this last time she had somewhere else to live because friends stepped up to house her and not tell him where she was? (He was punching her and threatened to kill her at one point.)

She finally got to the physical leaving part. Before he would kick her out and she'd sleep in her car in some parking lot if she couldn't find a friend to crash with. And she'd go back the next day when he cooled off. (Messed up, but she saw this as their normal way of dealing with arguments.)

When she left? She went through "withdrawal" wanting the familiar (even if crap) because the idea of starting a whole new life was super scary esp when she had NOTHING. X had to leave all behind.

Now that it's been a few years and she's had time to heal and been to classes at the women's shelter? She TOTALLY can see how bad it was. She herself said to me recently that when she was IN it she just could not see. Now in hindsight she sees how messed up the relationship was.

So... if this other woman is having an exit affair and then going back? It might be part of the leaving ping-pong. My friend ping-ponged for a long time.
(And honestly? If he hadn't kicked her out and she had friends willing to shelter her though the rough patch? X would have gone back.)

So if this other woman saying she wishes she took the time out to be single? I would encourage her in that, Monoguy. She could give herself time to heal and get her head together.

Not leap from one thing to another.

If you both got what you needed from an exit affair? Call it good enough. It does not obligate you to start a NEW thing with her called "relationship" or "Poly V relationship."

You sound like you got what you needed on your side. Your exit was completed.

She's still working on what she needs on her side. So in your shoes I would encourage her to be single. (To help her well being.)

And I would encourage you to say "No thanks" to a poly V with her weirdo. (To help YOUR well being.)

Cuz you might up for poly with HEALTHY people. But you don't have to do it with unhealthy people. What for?

In fact, I see so many people having sex with other people other than their main partner (either openly or clandestinely,) and have been cheated on so many times over the years, that it seems the options are to be celibate, have casual sex without commitments, or have a relationship with other partners and boundaries even if I feel sick about it.

The world is changing in ways that I don't like, so I can try to be fluid, I guess.

Or if what you really want is a monogamous relationship in the end? You can play the field and date a lot of people to find someone who ultimately wants same. There is compromise, and then there is compromising your values. There is a difference.

If your "being fluid" means taking up with people of questionable character? Then they end up cheating on agreements? What needs to change in behavior is your "being fluid." Raise your personal standard for dating. Be more STRICT instead. Like better quality dating partners rather than quantity, maybe?

There's no point in dating someone if there isn't even initial compatibility. Here you seem to have that. You and her have a lot of common interests. She made first cut.

It doesn't sound like she makes second cut though. Cuz she is coming with baggage -- weirdo abuser BF she doesn't want to leave yet. Plus healing from long term abuse. And she wants poly and you don't sound like you do.

This doesn't sound like "deep compatibility" to me. To me this sounds like you are "settling" for poly or nonmonogamy just to get to be with her because at least there's common interests and your other dating has been meh. But I don't think bending yourself into pretzels is the answer.

If this came from an exit affair? And you are still in the middle of divorcing your wife? Maybe YOU also need some time just being single and healing for a while first? Rather than jump into dating too soon?

Galagirl
 
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I cannot speak for her, Kevin. And I might guess wrong but if I did guess? I would guess it's like my friend X.

X is the most recent friend of mine to leave an abusive situation. She had to leave PHYSICALLY before she could heal and be able to "leave" mentally, emotionally, spiritually, etc.

But because she was abused with a lot of mind games and emotionally entangled with her abuser? Her mind and heart would not allow her to leave physically of her own volition.

If he hadn't kicked her out (again) and this last time she had somewhere else to live because friends stepped up to house her and not tell him where she was? (He was punching her and threatened to kill her at one point.)

She finally got to the physical leaving part. Before he would kick her out and she'd sleep in her car in some parking lot if she couldn't find a friend to crash with. And she'd go back the next day when he cooled off. (Messed up, but she saw this as their normal way of dealing with arguments.)

When she left? She went through "withdrawal" wanting the familiar (even if crap) because the idea of starting a whole new life was super scary esp when she had NOTHING. She had to leave all behind.

Now that it's been a few years and she's had time to heal and been to classes at the women's shelter? She TOTALLY can see how bad it was. She herself said to me recently that when she was IN it she just could not see. Now in hindsight she sees how messed up the relationship was.

So... this woman having an exit affair and then going back? It might be part of the leaving ping-pong. My friend ping-ponged for a long time.

And honestly? If he hadn't kicked her out and she had friends willing to shelter her though the rough patch? She would have gone back.

So if she's saying she wishes she took the time out to be single? I would encourage that OP. Give herself time to heal and get her head together.

Not leap from one thing to another.

If you both got what you needed from an exit affair? Call it good enough. It does not obligate you to start a NEW thing with her called "relationship" or "Poly V relationship."

You sound like you got what you needed on your side. Your exit was completed.

She's still working on what she needs on her side. So in your shoes I would encourage her to be single. (To help her well being.)

And I would encourage you to say "No thanks" to a poly V with her weirdo. (To help YOU well being.)

Cuz you might up for poly with HEALTHY people. But you don't have to do it with unhealthy people. What for?



Or what you really want is a monogamous relationship in the end? You can play the field and date a lot of people to find someone who ultimately wants same. There is compromise, and then there is compromising your values. There is a difference.

If your "being fluid" means taking up with people of questionable character? Then they end up cheating on agreements? What needs to change in behavior is your "being fluid." Raise your personal standard for dating. Be more STRICT instead. Like better quality dating partners rather than quantity, maybe?

There's no point in dating someone if there isn't even initial compatibility. Here you seem to have that. You and her have a lot of common interests. She made first cut.

It doesn't sound like she makes second cut though. Cuz she is coming with baggage -- weirdo abuser BF she doesn't want to leave yet. Plus healing from long term abuse. And she wants poly and you don't sound like you do.

This doesn't sound like "deep compatibility" to me. To me this sounds like you are "settling" for poly or nonmonogamy just to get to be with her because at least there's common interests and your other dating has been meh. But I don't think bending yourself into pretzels is the answer.

If this came from an exit affair? And you are still in the middle of divorcing your wife? Maybe YOU also need some time just being single and healing for a while first? Rather than jump into dating too soon?

Galagirl

Because Inam a new member here, my posts are moderated before appearing, so some information is disjointed.

I made a post about being poly-curious though I don't see it yet.

I am open to possibilities, though I am not ready to embrace absolutes.

We were talking today and I brought up some valid points, some of which I read from all of you, plus being backed up by logic.

Do you feel that your time with him will be positive or negative?

Do you feel that our relationship would be immune from that negative energy?

Do you think that once his family finds out about the poly V, that they will be fine with it and leave him alone?

Where are you on his priority list?

All answers were "no" and "low."

They fought a lot, yesterday. He was trying to minimize all that he had done wrong. She said she is beginning to see that he won't change for her, let alone for "us." She said she doesn't believe that the poly V with him is possible.

She wants to take steps to be out of his sphere.

These are steps in a more comfortable direction.
 
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Sounds like she's more able to see that things are not healthy there with him then.

I hope she continues to heal.

Galagirl
 
So you’ve been cheated on, are emotionally not in a good place, and are now contemplating entering or staying in a relationship with a women who is totally unstable ( packing her luggage to leave is not normally a sexually motivating activity) , has obviously deceived you into thinking she did not demand polyamory or non monogamy, and who now also threatens you by telling you if she can’t have both of you she may dump you both.

Doesn’t matter whether you’re a pagan, Germanic or anything else. You cannot control this other person so your choices are clear. Either you suck it up and be miserable playing housekeeper and baby sitter half the time or more while he goes about his business and gets sex from her, or you do the b est thing for YOU , which will be to tell her to unpack her luggage back at his place he resides and to stay gathered.
 
Walk away from this.

I have loved her from afar for a long tine; love at first sight, star crossed scenario, and I never, ever had that before, and I have met a myriad of women. We have more in common than any woman I have ever met or have been with.

She is taking proper steps with the "ex," and I am trying to be open and look at ot from a poly perspective.

I may decide to walk and have prepared myself to do that, if necessary. I don't feel that it is necessary to do so at this time.
 
I have loved her from afar for a long tine; love at first sight, star crossed scenario, and I never, ever had that before, and I have met a myriad of women. We have more in common than any woman I have ever met or have been with.

She is taking proper steps with the "ex," and I am trying to be open and look at ot from a poly perspective.

I may decide to walk and have prepared myself to do that, if necessary. I don't feel that it is necessary to do so at this time.

Do it for her sake. You are clearly nowhere near being accepting of poly. There is nothing wrong with that. There actually are plenty of mono women out there.

The key phrase there is "from afar." You admired her from afar. You had some big fantasy life for the two of you going on in your head. Now you are learning she is her own person. She is not going to fit into a mold. Neither are you.

You've basically called poly guys cucks. You are already keeping a tally of who will be doing what. Plus, the whole tit for tat thing. That's not poly at all. If you want to think about poly you need to do that on your own, not jump into it hoping it works out. The odds are pretty much against it working out, especially given your views on the whole thing.
 
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