Jealousy, Envy, WTF

Thank you for more info.

When I call someone, I have an expectation that the call is between the two of us, not between the two of us plus whoever else is in the room, and I want to know if that expectation isn't being met.

Could ask him directly at the start of the call if he's on his own or with other people. That is something YOU can do to allay your privacy concern.

And it is partly so that I don't interrupt his time with that other partner.

Could let that be his part of the job. Presumably if he answers, it is not an interruption. If you happen to call and it would be an interruption... he doesn't have to answer. He can let it go to voicemail. Then he isn't being interrupted.

The issue wasn't *really* that he didn't let me know he was seeing his other partner that night; it was--is--that I don't have enough trust in him not to allow someone else to replace me, because of my own insecurities.

Let me repeat that back in my own words to make sure I get it how you mean it.

“I think my BF is going to replace me with someone else. So I don't trust him. I know it's my own insecurities that make me think that. But I'm still not gonna trust him.”​

Is that what you are saying? :confused:

Galagirl
 
Thank you for more info.

Could ask him directly at the start of the call if he's on his own or with other people. That is something YOU can do to allay your privacy concern.

Yes, I could, and that's a good point. That goes back to the necessity of assuming he's going to be with someone else if I cancel our date night, since otherwise, he isn't likely to be with someone else on a weekday morning.

Could let that be his part of the job. Presumably if he answers, it is not an interruption. If you happen to call and it would be an interruption... he doesn't have to answer. He can let it go to voicemail. Then he isn't being interrupted.

Also a good point.

Let me repeat that back in my own words to make sure I get it how you mean it.

“I think my BF is going to replace me with someone else. So I don't trust him. I know it's my own insecurities that make me think that. But I'm still not gonna trust him.”​

Is that what you are saying? :confused:

Galagirl

No. Thank you for asking for clarification. What I'm saying is that *because* I have these insecurities, I don't trust that my boyfriend won't replace me with someone else, or that a metamour won't try to persuade him to replace me. But I do *want* to have the trust in him that he won't replace me, even if a metamour does try to talk him into it. Which happened previously, and he refused to stop seeing me, which should reinforce that he isn't going to let another partner talk him out of our relationship, and I keep reminding myself of that. I also want to trust my metamours that they won't do that.

That's why I said that the issue is that I don't have enough trust; that was me identifying the root of the problem, because that then becomes the problem I need to address. I know why I'm insecure, and I'm working on being more secure. But I also have now identified that I need to work on being more trusting of others as well. So I wasn't saying "This is how it is and shall remain," I was saying "OHHH... THIS is how it is. THIS is what I can work on to try to improve things."
 
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"My boyfriend has been with me for nearly three years. He is a caretaker type; he has had other partners in the past who had more needs and less ability to manage their issues than I have, and stayed with them until *they* chose to leave."

Is this healthy?

"I don't expect anyone to "fix" anything or be my crutch. All I ask for from my partners is that they, within the bounds of their abilities and emotional bandwidth, listen to me when I am struggling and offer me reassurance and comfort."

Maybe I misunderstood, but I read that he told you he was with his other partner and you hung up on him and followed by giving back all his stuff and taking yours. You neither gave him an opportunity to listen nor limited your expectations of him to put your needs above everyone else's. That is expecting him to be your crutch. That isn't a request for reassurance or comfort, that is a demand to do what you need or be dumped.

"But when I'm physically ill, as I was that night (migraine and fibro flare, exacerbated by our heat wave), I prefer to be left alone to take care of myself, other than asking Hubby to run errands for me if something needs to be done immediately. You also seem, with that statement, to be assuming my boyfriend would have *wanted* to take care of me that night if he'd had the option."

I think you misunderstand my point, although you have strengthened it here. He has no choice other than to not be with you when you are sick and unable to leave the house. That is because a) you restrict partners in your marital home and b) you prefer to be alone when sick. Still, you acted on your resentment that he chose to spend quality time with another partner when you left him no way to spend time with you. Notice I am not talking about you feeling resentful, we cannot help our feelings much, but you acting on it by doing what you did.

"I want our conversations to be private. "

To what extent? Is any of that because you feel anxious about people hearing the type of dynamic you have? I would feel fine about my metamours hearing the majority of my phone conversations with out hinge as we mostly laugh and make plans for good times ahead. If they were heavy and tainted with negativity a lot of the time, I might feel differently.

"I feel like I'm being presented in your post as a helpless little whineass who expects everyone to do everything for her, and that is definitely not who I am. If I were, I literally wouldn't be alive right now, let alone capable of living a functional, usually happy, life."

In truth, a lot of your posts have a general tone of "I can't" and therefore everyone else should make me feel better about it.

"I literally had to be taught how to make small talk, and it's only been about a decade since someone took the time to explain to me that when someone asks "How are you" they don't want an actual answer, they're just being polite."

This is not as black and white as whoever told you this. It very much depends on who they are. A good friend in an intimate atmosphere really means it, they want to hear your ups and downs. A new acquaintance does not. You just say "fine" or something to them. It sounds like you have had trouble achieving that balance so an absolute rule was offered.

"I stated in my first post... my expectation was NOT that he would sit at home doing nothing. My BELIEF was that that was what he would do, because he didn't indicate otherwise and because I knew he had something going on the next day that he needed to prepare for, so I made the assumption that he would stay home to prepare for it. (Which he also would have done if I'd kept the date, by the way; at least half of the night would have been spent with him preparing for this and me sitting there twiddling *my* thumbs.)"

I think this is likely far more the source of your meltdown. You feel resentful that he would have incorporated his other tasks with seeing you whereas he seemingly just went to spend fun time with his other partner.
 
Thank you. I'm sorry you're having to deal with anxiety and depression.

Letting go of the attachment to why things happen, and to the outcome of things, is something I'm working on. To some extent I do want to know why I feel a certain way about something, because I perceive that as helping me figure out *how* to work on it. But I do go overboard at times.

In my case the depression was easy to figure out. But the anxiety? I have no idea. It seems to be that it just is. Possibly just brain chemistry? Nothing has happened in my life to explain why I feel the way I do about certain things. Just recognizing it was a huge help.
 
Thank you for responding and clarifying your points, as well as pointing out things that I said that contributed.

"My boyfriend has been with me for nearly three years. He is a caretaker type; he has had other partners in the past who had more needs and less ability to manage their issues than I have, and stayed with them until *they* chose to leave."

Is this healthy?

I would say that there's a strong probability it isn't. I'm realizing through this situation that it certainly isn't healthy for *me*, at any rate.

"I don't expect anyone to "fix" anything or be my crutch. All I ask for from my partners is that they, within the bounds of their abilities and emotional bandwidth, listen to me when I am struggling and offer me reassurance and comfort."

Maybe I misunderstood, but I read that he told you he was with his other partner and you hung up on him and followed by giving back all his stuff and taking yours. You neither gave him an opportunity to listen nor limited your expectations of him to put your needs above everyone else's. That is expecting him to be your crutch. That isn't a request for reassurance or comfort, that is a demand to do what you need or be dumped.

You did read that correctly, and I understand how you view it. It definitely isn't a request for reassurance or comfort; I acted out of emotion without taking the time to think it through. It was not intended as a "do what I want/need or else," though I can see how it would come across that way. My line of thinking was more "This hurts, this reaction isn't fair *to him*, I should end the relationship so I don't have to deal with the pain and he doesn't have to deal with me acting this way." I'm not sure that's much better.

"But when I'm physically ill, as I was that night (migraine and fibro flare, exacerbated by our heat wave), I prefer to be left alone to take care of myself, other than asking Hubby to run errands for me if something needs to be done immediately. You also seem, with that statement, to be assuming my boyfriend would have *wanted* to take care of me that night if he'd had the option."

I think you misunderstand my point, although you have strengthened it here. He has no choice other than to not be with you when you are sick and unable to leave the house. That is because a) you restrict partners in your marital home and b) you prefer to be alone when sick. Still, you acted on your resentment that he chose to spend quality time with another partner when you left him no way to spend time with you. Notice I am not talking about you feeling resentful, we cannot help our feelings much, but you acting on it by doing what you did.

I may have been resenting that he spent time with another partner. But my issue, to me, was less that he spent time with her and more that I didn't know he was spending time with her. As Galagirl pointed out, it might be unreasonable for me to want/expect to know that, but that was the issue. That said, I agree that my actions were out of proportion to the situation. Knowing that was one of the reasons I posted in the first place, because I do want to change this pattern.

"I want our conversations to be private. "

To what extent? Is any of that because you feel anxious about people hearing the type of dynamic you have? I would feel fine about my metamours hearing the majority of my phone conversations with out hinge as we mostly laugh and make plans for good times ahead. If they were heavy and tainted with negativity a lot of the time, I might feel differently.

The majority of our phone conversations consist of "How are you today, what are your plans, how are you feeling, hope you have a good day." So they are positive, or at least neutral. As I explained above, it's similar to how nesting partners might check in with each other at the beginning of a day; since he and I aren't nesting partners, we do it by phone.

I prefer that my conversations with *anyone* be private, because I don't consider it anyone else's business what I'm saying to someone or what they're saying to me, regardless of what it is. For that reason, I will very rarely have a phone conversation with anyone if I know someone is with them, and if Hubby is home when I'm having a conversation, I go into our bedroom and turn on the white noise so he won't overhear, because I feel that the person I'm talking to has as much reason to expect privacy as I do.

"I feel like I'm being presented in your post as a helpless little whineass who expects everyone to do everything for her, and that is definitely not who I am. If I were, I literally wouldn't be alive right now, let alone capable of living a functional, usually happy, life."

In truth, a lot of your posts have a general tone of "I can't" and therefore everyone else should make me feel better about it.

Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I need to be more careful with my tone and my words.

"I literally had to be taught how to make small talk, and it's only been about a decade since someone took the time to explain to me that when someone asks "How are you" they don't want an actual answer, they're just being polite."

This is not as black and white as whoever told you this. It very much depends on who they are. A good friend in an intimate atmosphere really means it, they want to hear your ups and downs. A new acquaintance does not. You just say "fine" or something to them. It sounds like you have had trouble achieving that balance so an absolute rule was offered.

That may be accurate. I had trouble achieving the balance because I didn't understand that there *was* one.

"I stated in my first post... my expectation was NOT that he would sit at home doing nothing. My BELIEF was that that was what he would do, because he didn't indicate otherwise and because I knew he had something going on the next day that he needed to prepare for, so I made the assumption that he would stay home to prepare for it. (Which he also would have done if I'd kept the date, by the way; at least half of the night would have been spent with him preparing for this and me sitting there twiddling *my* thumbs.)"

I think this is likely far more the source of your meltdown. You feel resentful that he would have incorporated his other tasks with seeing you whereas he seemingly just went to spend fun time with his other partner.

Yes, I would say that had a lot to do with it, along with finding out several minutes in that I didn't have the privacy I'd expected when we started our phone call. Neither of which makes my reaction okay.
 
In my case the depression was easy to figure out. But the anxiety? I have no idea. It seems to be that it just is. Possibly just brain chemistry? Nothing has happened in my life to explain why I feel the way I do about certain things. Just recognizing it was a huge help.

That's how it is with me much of the time. I don't always know why I feel depressed or anxious; sometimes I just do, with no apparent trigger or reason. For me, both are a matter of brain chemistry; both run in my family at least back to great-grandparents. (Probably further, but there's no way to know that for sure.) Because it's a chemical imbalance, medication helps me to some extent, but some of the medications that might help more are off-limits for me because I've had adverse reactions to them or because I can't handle their side effects.
 
FWIW...

I acted out of emotion without taking the time to think it through.
My line of thinking was more "This hurts, this reaction isn't fair *to him*, I should end the relationship so I don't have to deal with the pain and he doesn't have to deal with me acting this way." I'm not sure that's much better.
That said, I agree that my actions were out of proportion to the situation. Knowing that was one of the reasons I posted in the first place, because I do want to change this pattern.


This line of "reasoning" (really, overwhelming emotion, with a smidge of empathy for my partner thrown in) was the reason I recently ended things with my partner Jester, or rather, what amounted to taking an extended break from the relationship --- i.e. because I recognised *I* could no longer deal with my own negative emotions regarding our relationship dynamic AND because I likewise recognised that my out-of-proportion reactions were damaging to HIM as well --- even if I believed my behaviour was in reaction to something hurtful he'd done.


I prefer that my conversations with *anyone* be private, because I don't consider it anyone else's business what I'm saying to someone...
For that reason, I will very rarely have a phone conversation with anyone if I know someone is with them, and if Hubby is home when I'm having a conversation, I go into our bedroom and turn on the white noise so he won't overhear, because I feel that the person I'm talking to has as much reason to expect privacy as I do.

I do exactly the same thing, KC, for much the same reasons. Plus, I simply don't like being "watched", on show, or listened to while I'm doing something very personal, such as talking to a partner on the phone, working on my art, using the bathroom, etc. I'm a very private person who doesn't like to be on display.

I tell you this mainly so you know you're not alone.

That said, I recognise that some of the above is not particularly healthy behaviour within the context of an intimate relationship. Like you, I'm trying to work on my knee-jerk emotional reactions... while balancing the needs of my partners with MY own boundaries and need for privacy, space, love, attention and a sense of security and comfort.
 
FWIW...

This line of "reasoning" (really, overwhelming emotion, with a smidge of empathy for my partner thrown in) was the reason I recently ended things with my partner Jester, or rather, what amounted to taking an extended break from the relationship --- i.e. because I recognised *I* could no longer deal with my own negative emotions regarding our relationship dynamic AND because I likewise recognised that my out-of-proportion reactions were damaging to HIM as well --- even if I believed my behaviour was in reaction to something hurtful he'd done.

Exactly. While I acted on impulse out of strong emotion, and hadn't fully thought it through when I first left my house to take his things to his place, the thoughts going along with the emotions as I made the drive were that I didn't want to keep feeling those emotions, I didn't want to keep reacting the way I was reacting, and I didn't believe it was fair to *him* that I reacted that way.

Obviously I can, and *want to*, change those emotions, or at least acknowledge them as valid (because emotions are valid) while putting rational thought into place to contradict any faulty thinking underlying the emotions, and to prevent myself from acting on impulse. And that is something I am working on, and will continue working on. At the same time, though, recognizing that the emotions are problematic for me, and my reactions to them are problematic to him and me, it seemed--and to some extent still seems--like the more prudent thing to do is remove myself from the situation.

To some extent, to me, that seems like avoidance on some level; if I'm not in the situation, I don't have the triggers for those emotions and am therefore not reacting the way I would prefer not to react. I'm not learning how to manage those emotions and reactions if I'm not experiencing the emotions or exhibiting the reactions to begin with, so it feels to me like that's the easy way out and a way of avoiding actually doing the work. At the same time, it might be more fair to my boyfriend.


I do exactly the same thing, KC, for much the same reasons. Plus, I simply don't like being "watched", on show, or listened to while I'm doing something very personal, such as talking to a partner on the phone, working on my art, using the bathroom, etc. I'm a very private person who doesn't like to be on display.

I tell you this mainly so you know you're not alone.

That said, I recognise that some of the above is not particularly healthy behaviour within the context of an intimate relationship. Like you, I'm trying to work on my knee-jerk emotional reactions... while balancing the needs of my partners with MY own boundaries and need for privacy, space, love, attention and a sense of security and comfort.

Thank you for letting me know I'm not the only one who thinks that way about privacy. The things you mention in the first paragraph of this quote are pretty much how I think. I don't want someone talking to me through a closed bathroom door, for example, regardless of which of us is on which side of the door. (Unless it's something like "I just fell in the tub" or "We're out of toilet paper in here.") It bugs the hell out of me if Hubby comes up behind me when I'm on the computer and starts reading over my shoulder, whether I'm on here or on Facebook or surfing Wikipedia. It isn't that I feel a need to hide what I'm doing; I just don't consider it anyone else's business unless *I* choose to make it their business.

That balance, between emotions and rationality, between my needs and those of my partners and metamours, etc. is what I'm working for and hoping to reach sooner than later.
 
KC, out of curiosity, what's your experience with mindfulness-based practices, relaxation, yoga? Did you ever manage to use meditation to your advantage, or does it worsen your anxiety? Have you got favorite spiritual teachers?

Anxiety is a bitch, I also don't quite have a handle on it. But I've noticed that meditation before sleep does help a bit. (I mostly imagine my attention dropping down into my abdomen, relax and let my thoughts run loose without paying too much attention to them... but that's just a method that happens to work for me right now.)

In general, getting out of my head into the body helps - physical activities like free dancing, yoga, and even bdsm. But the more anxious I am the more difficult it is to actually successfully shut off the thoughts and go with the flow. But if I manage to get at least one nice physical evening a week, my general level of agitation is lower.
 
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Well... I see you write this and I have some questions in blue...

  • He has a habit of being a “caretaker.” (Why caretaker? He takes on people's concerns for himself? Because that's different than caregiver to me.)
  • He has had other partners in the past who had more needs and less ability to manage their issues than you have (Did you get neglected while he was attending to them?)
  • He puts up with a lot (Like what? Is he slow to to terminate unhealthy things?)
  • Usually he waits for them to break up (Do you prefer he be more assertive and end things? Tell you less about them?)

You admit you sometimes overreact, which might ADD to the problem.

But if the problem is about trusting him to manage his other relationships appropriately?

But I do *want* to have the trust in him that he won't replace me, even if a metamour does try to talk him into it.

the issue is that I don't have enough trust;

What behaviors do you need to do to grow trust?

What behaviors does he need to do grow trust?

In order for you to become more confident in his ability to manage his other relationships appropriately while still treating you well?

Galagirl
 
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KC, out of curiosity, what's your experience with mindfulness-based practices, relaxation, yoga? Did you ever manage to use meditation to your advantage, or does it worsen your anxiety? Have you got favorite spiritual teachers?

Anxiety is a bitch, I also don't quite have a handle on it. But I've noticed that meditation before sleep does help a bit. (I mostly imagine my attention dropping down into my abdomen, relax and let my thoughts run loose without paying too much attention to them... but that's just a method that happens to work for me right now.)

In general, getting out of my head into the body helps - physical activities like free dancing, yoga, and even bdsm. But the more anxious I am the more difficult it is to actually successfully shut off the thoughts and go with the flow. But if I manage to get at least one nice physical evening a week, my general level of agitation is lower.

I have tried mindfulness practices. Meditation sometimes makes the anxiety worse. I used to do yoga, which worked better, but at this point I have physical difficulty doing it. I've been doing some physical exercises my ex-boyfriend taught me a few mornings a week, as well as doing some walking and going to batting cages once a week. Those things do shut off the thinking, for the most part.
 
Well... I see you write this and I have some questions in blue...

  • He has a habit of being a “caretaker.” (Why caretaker? He takes on people's concerns for himself? Because that's different than caregiver to me.)


  • I'm not sure which word is correct. He seems to thrive on taking care of other people, whether physically or emotionally.

    [*]He has had other partners in the past who had more needs and less ability to manage their issues than you have (Did you get neglected while he was attending to them?)

    I don't recall feeling neglected. He usually manages his time pretty well, and if someone has a stronger need than I do, I'm okay with stepping back a bit so their need can be met.

    [*]He puts up with a lot (Like what? Is he slow to to terminate unhealthy things?)

    I would say that's how it appears to me. He seems to have a high tolerance, so for example, when I bring up one of my behaviors that *I* feel is unhealthy and unacceptable, he says it's fine and doesn't bother him. I have other reasons for saying he puts up with a lot, but I can't get into them because they're about him and other people, not about me.

    [*]Usually he waits for them to break up (Do you prefer he be more assertive and end things? Tell you less about them?)

I don't have a preference. That's between him and them. If he tells me something about a relationship and I think it might be unhealthy for him or might be causing him stress, I'll express the concern, but how he handles it is up to him.

You admit you sometimes overreact, which might ADD to the problem.

But if the problem is about trusting him to manage his other relationships appropriately?

What behaviors do you need to do to grow trust?

What behaviors does he need to do grow trust?

In order for you to become more confident in his ability to manage his other relationships appropriately while still treating you well?
Galagirl

I'm having trouble figuring out how to clarify this, so please bear with me.

I don't really feel much one way or another about how he manages his other relationships *in general*. My lack of trust is around whether he will choose another partner over me, which is a facet of a broader lack of trust that he won't leave me and means it when he says he's going to stay. Other than how or whether his other relationships directly impact me, they aren't really my business. I don't worry about what he's doing in his other relationships, only about whether one of those other relationships is going to cause problems in my relationship with him.

He doesn't need to change his behaviors to grow trust. He has consistently shown that he isn't going to leave, that he isn't going to let another partner influence how he feels about me or whether he stays with me, and that he does love and accept me despite the issues I'm working to manage.

I'm the one who needs to make the change. The only "behavior" I can identify to change is what I think in certain situations, because I can shift those thoughts, and I can remind myself that he has shown I can trust him, he isn't the people who have hurt me in the past, etc. I have recognized and told him all along that when I'm hurt by something he's done, *I* am the one who's hurting me, not him, because I'm allowing my past and those thoughts to influence how I'm perceiving and reacting to the present. So I need to be more mindful and more deliberate about recognizing when I'm doing that, and choosing different thoughts and reactions.
 
Sounds like you could practice doing more "talking back" then.

If the anxiety goes WHOOSH! with a wave of "What if this? What if that?" rather than get carried away by it and cranking your own self up further, you talk back to the anxiety.

Remind yourself he's been a solid partner all this time, no reason to change that now.

Remind yourself he isn't those past people who hurt you etc.

Maybe reading about emotional flooding could help some? Looking at those management techniques?

Galagirl
 
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Sounds like you could practice doing more "talking back" then.

If the anxiety goes WHOOSH! with a wave of "What if this? What if that?" rather than get carried away by it and cranking your own self up further, you talk back to the anxiety.

Remind yourself he's been a solid partner all this time, no reason to change that now.

Remind yourself he isn't those past people who hurt you etc.

Maybe reading about emotional flooding could help some? Looking at those management techniques?

Galagirl

Thank you. Yes, that's what I'm trying to do. I can often talk back to the anxiety; the problem is that I don't always listen to what *I'm* saying instead of what the anxiety is saying. That's what I need to work harder on, I think.
 
Sorry if this was already said and I just missed it.... but it sounds to me like you would benefit from trying to re-frame how you view a canceled date night. Once either of your cancels it, that is no longer *your* night (the collective as in you both). It's now each of you's individual free time to do with as you wish. In which case, sure, it's not unreasonable for him to at some point let you know that he saw another partner because maybe you guys tell each other that much just in talking about your daily lives.... but it would help it to feel less like "why didn't he tell me he was *replacing* me with someone else on *MY* night!?"

I know that you already realize that this isn't necessarily a rational thought, but working toward the autmatic assumption as soon as plans are cancelled that you each have your own time would hopefully reduce the risk of a bad reaction rather than having to remind yourself later on after the fact that actually it was no longer "your" night.

Regarding the phone convo and how you found out, I second that it might just be worth agreeing that if he's with someone else, he doesn't answer your phone call. He can always text you back right away and say "I'm with someone, I'll call you as soon as I'm alone."

But would you also be willing to consider re-evaluating your needs around privacy and see if that's something that you would potentially like to become more flexible on? Sure, it isn't anyone elses business what you're saying.... but if what you're saying is basically just some harmless chit chat to check in, then does it really matter if someone occasionally hears a few words of a response? How is that any different than having a conversation with someone out in public where people passing you on the street or sitting at the next table over in a restaurant might overhear snippets of conversation? Are you concerned that anyone overhearing might actually care what you're saying and so you'll feel judged?

Of course, if you need to have a serious conversation or it's something that either person explicity feels is super private and no one should know, then absolutely people shouldn't talk in front of others. But I guess I'm asking.... have you thought about WHY it bothers you so much that others might happen to hear or see what you're doing? What benefit does such extreme privacy ultimately provide for you? The cost certainly seems to be a higher level of isolation and suspicion about those around you.

My last thought is that it seems like you struggle with providing people with the benefit of the doubt, even if they are someone that you feel is doing the right/kind thing most of the time. In this case, you've been with this partner for 3 years and he has repeatedly showed you that he's not trying to replace you, that he cares about you, etc. etc. and yet at this first instance of him making plans with another partner after you cancelled the date, you instantly assume that he is trying to replace you. And when you find out from him over the phone, it seems like you're making some other assumptions about him not respecting privacy, etc. Is it possible that he forgot? Or just got sidetracked? Or thought that the conversation was so benign that there wasn't anything "private" to protect? Or even if he knew all of those things, you clearly mean a lot to him, so at what point is it worth considering "ok, I'm not happy about the way that went down, but I know how he feels about me so he probably didn't mean any harm."

I think you know those things already to a certain point, but it's a matter of figuring out how to turn off the initial "jump to the really bad place" reaction and not let that get carried away in your mind first. Sadly I don't have any great advice on how to catch that and stop that cycle other than maybe trying to find a way to pause and have a list of questions to ask yourself, or something that can pull your mind out of that spiral so that you can attempt to think differently about the situation.

Not sure if any of that was helpful or not, but there's my 2 cents! I hope that being able to get your thoughts out helps you work through this though!
 
Sorry if this was already said and I just missed it.... but it sounds to me like you would benefit from trying to re-frame how you view a canceled date night. Once either of your cancels it, that is no longer *your* night (the collective as in you both). It's now each of you's individual free time to do with as you wish. In which case, sure, it's not unreasonable for him to at some point let you know that he saw another partner because maybe you guys tell each other that much just in talking about your daily lives.... but it would help it to feel less like "why didn't he tell me he was *replacing* me with someone else on *MY* night!?"

I know that you already realize that this isn't necessarily a rational thought, but working toward the autmatic assumption as soon as plans are cancelled that you each have your own time would hopefully reduce the risk of a bad reaction rather than having to remind yourself later on after the fact that actually it was no longer "your" night.

Yes, that's essentially what Galagirl also suggested. I do view it as his time is now free if I cancel, and he can do what he wants with his free time. I'm not sure I was seeing it as "he's replacing me on MY night" as just "he's replacing me." Sort of an interchangeable parts thing; "Oh, I can't have KC tonight, so I'll just have (other partner) instead." Which is something I've called him on before, because it's something he tends to do any time any partner cancels on him.

It is his time free to spend however he wants, but to me it feels icky, whether I'm the canceling partner or the "replacement," that he immediately jumps to "I can't see one partner so I'll just see another." He did that to me a few times when another partner canceled on him (i.e. she canceled, so he called me to see if I was available), and I didn't feel any better about that than I did about this. When he does that, it feels to me like he's viewing us as interchangeable rather than individuals. I'm not sure how well I'm explaining it; it's a bit hard to put into words how I feel about that. What I can say is that when the situation has been reversed, and he has been the one to cancel, there have been times I've found something else to do, but I haven't seen another partner or gone on a date with a potential partner, because to me that feels like replacing him.

Regarding the phone convo and how you found out, I second that it might just be worth agreeing that if he's with someone else, he doesn't answer your phone call. He can always text you back right away and say "I'm with someone, I'll call you as soon as I'm alone."

That sounds like a good solution, and it's something he has done at times.

But would you also be willing to consider re-evaluating your needs around privacy and see if that's something that you would potentially like to become more flexible on? Sure, it isn't anyone elses business what you're saying.... but if what you're saying is basically just some harmless chit chat to check in, then does it really matter if someone occasionally hears a few words of a response? How is that any different than having a conversation with someone out in public where people passing you on the street or sitting at the next table over in a restaurant might overhear snippets of conversation? Are you concerned that anyone overhearing might actually care what you're saying and so you'll feel judged?

This is another thing where it's hard to put my thoughts and feelings into words. I'm trying not to use my past as an excuse, but it is an explanation; I grew up in a situation where I had very little privacy, and when I was married to my kids' father, he gave me NO privacy. Because of all that, it is very important to me to be able to have privacy in the situations I feel I need it. Phone calls are one of those situations. It isn't about what I'm saying or whether someone else will judge me, it just plain isn't their business and I don't want them listening in on something that isn't their business.

I'm feeling very angry about this issue (privacy) right now, and I want to make it clear it is NOT anger at you or the suggestion, but just at the idea of giving up any privacy at all because I feel like I've had to fight for it in the first place.

I understand what you're saying about having conversations out in public, but to me, it *isn't* the same thing. In public, I *know* other people might overhear, and I can make the decision of what I say or whether I say anything at all. I can also lower my voice to make it less likely someone else will overhear. If there's someone listening at the other end of a phone call...Well, if I don't know about it, I can't make the decision of what I say or whether I say anything, because I don't know someone might overhear. I also can't control whether the person I'm actually talking to takes any steps to prevent being overheard.

Basically, I don't care what anyone overhearing thinks of me or of what I say, but I don't think they have any business or right overhearing in the first place. My conversation. My privacy. My boundary.

Of course, if you need to have a serious conversation or it's something that either person explicity feels is super private and no one should know, then absolutely people shouldn't talk in front of others. But I guess I'm asking.... have you thought about WHY it bothers you so much that others might happen to hear or see what you're doing? What benefit does such extreme privacy ultimately provide for you? The cost certainly seems to be a higher level of isolation and suspicion about those around you.

See above. It isn't about being suspicious. It's about it not being anyone's business what I'm saying except the person I'm saying it to. It's about having certain requirements for privacy in certain situations. I understand not everyone has those requirements, and that's fine, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong to have them.

I'm not sure how having random people I'm not connected to overhearing my conversation would serve to counter isolation. That sounds to me like I'm supposed to share everything with people I don't know or don't have any desire to connect with just so I'm not isolated. I don't think that's what you meant, so please clarify?

My last thought is that it seems like you struggle with providing people with the benefit of the doubt, even if they are someone that you feel is doing the right/kind thing most of the time. In this case, you've been with this partner for 3 years and he has repeatedly showed you that he's not trying to replace you, that he cares about you, etc. etc. and yet at this first instance of him making plans with another partner after you cancelled the date, you instantly assume that he is trying to replace you. And when you find out from him over the phone, it seems like you're making some other assumptions about him not respecting privacy, etc. Is it possible that he forgot? Or just got sidetracked? Or thought that the conversation was so benign that there wasn't anything "private" to protect? Or even if he knew all of those things, you clearly mean a lot to him, so at what point is it worth considering "ok, I'm not happy about the way that went down, but I know how he feels about me so he probably didn't mean any harm."

I think you know those things already to a certain point, but it's a matter of figuring out how to turn off the initial "jump to the really bad place" reaction and not let that get carried away in your mind first. Sadly I don't have any great advice on how to catch that and stop that cycle other than maybe trying to find a way to pause and have a list of questions to ask yourself, or something that can pull your mind out of that spiral so that you can attempt to think differently about the situation.

Not sure if any of that was helpful or not, but there's my 2 cents! I hope that being able to get your thoughts out helps you work through this though!

Thank you. Yes, I acknowledge that I sometimes have trouble giving people the benefit of the doubt. I will say, though, that while this is the first time this *particular* scenario has occurred, it is not the first time I've been afraid he'll replace me. That's a constant fear with anyone I get involved with, though I manage it much more appropriately with other partners than with my boyfriend. That might be because he's the first partner I had who actually had other partners, whereas with partners I've had since who are poly, I've had the experience with my boyfriend so it's easier to manage with them.

Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and I'm going to have to think about it to figure out why I can feel "used to it" with other partners, but not with my boyfriend who is my original poly partner.

I also acknowledge that I tend to catastrophize, and while I am able to recognize that I'm doing so, and I do try to logic myself out of it by correcting or changing those thoughts, the latter part is a work in progress. I'm better about it than I used to be, but sometimes the irrational emotions are still louder than the rational "You know that isn't how it is." I'm working on making the rational louder.

I do know he didn't intend any hurt or harm. I haven't questioned that. My intention in posting this thread--though I may not have been clear about it in my first post--was to acknowledge that *I* was not handling the situation well, and try to figure out healthier ways to handle any similar situations that might arise, as well as how to better address my insecurities so I don't have the constant fear of being replaced. It wasn't so much about what *he* did as about how *I* responded. *He* didn't do anything wrong or inappropriate. I did.

I appreciate your input, and it is helpful. Thank you.
 
"It is his time free to spend however he wants, but to me it feels icky, whether I'm the canceling partner or the "replacement," that he immediately jumps to "I can't see one partner so I'll just see another." He did that to me a few times when another partner canceled on him (i.e. she canceled, so he called me to see if I was available), and I didn't feel any better about that than I did about this. When he does that, it feels to me like he's viewing us as interchangeable rather than individuals. I'm not sure how well I'm explaining it; it's a bit hard to put into words how I feel about that. What I can say is that when the situation has been reversed, and he has been the one to cancel, there have been times I've found something else to do, but I haven't seen another partner or gone on a date with a potential partner, because to me that feels like replacing him."

To me, this is him meeting his needs. Maybe he wanted adult company/affection/sex. He thought he was getting it with you but you bailed, now should he stay at home sulking and not meeting his needs which over time, leads to misery, or should he be proactive and make other plans to meet those specific needs?

To me, it seems like because you would do the former (stay at home sulking without meeting dating needs), and I have to say that some of that is through a lack of choice rather than values, you want him to do the same or he doesn't love you properly.

" it just plain isn't their business and I don't want them listening in on something that isn't their business. "

I think this "need" is unreasonable and a bit of a red flag. If you need your partner to be in complete isolation just to have a "hey, how are you" conversation, that makes me think there is a dynamic or interactions that you want to keep secret from other people. Secrets like that are often connected to unhealthy and even abusive situations. If I was your metamour and seeing all of this go down, I would be very worried for our Hinge because I can bet this would not be natural behavior for them.

"That sounds to me like I'm supposed to share everything with people I don't know or don't have any desire to connect with just so I'm not isolated."

It is the extreme need to keep all conversations super private to the point your boyfriend has to not answer or isolate himself to speak with you. Right or wrong, that would be exhausting over time.

"My intention in posting this thread--though I may not have been clear about it in my first post--was to acknowledge that *I* was not handling the situation well, and try to figure out healthier ways to handle any similar situations that might arise, as well as how to better address my insecurities so I don't have the constant fear of being replaced."

I think this is a case where your actions are potentially harmful, especially as you acknowledge your boyfriend has the tendency to stay in situations essentially "white-knighting". I think you have to be tougher with yourself and simply not carry out these extreme behaviors when provoked. I think you should acknowledge your urge to do something like take all your stuff back because he didn't do what you would have preferred, but not act on it. Get your husband to sit on you if he has to so you do not leave the house. I don't think this is something that can be left until you feel differently and therefore act differently. You need to act first and hope the feelings follow.
 
" it just plain isn't their business and I don't want them listening in on something that isn't their business. "

I think this "need" is unreasonable and a bit of a red flag.
For the record, I absolutely HATE to find out that something that I considered a private conversation on the phone isn't private after all.
I wouldn't worry about that.
 
Just another voice that feels similarly about the phone thing. I always try to extract myself from what I'm doing when I'm on the phone with Chops, even if it's a "hey, how are you?" conversation (because there's still an exchange of gooshy stuff from time to time). When Chops is with me, he's very good about taking some personal space (he'll go outside or up to the bedroom) when making goodnight phone calls to Xena and Curls, so I'm not concerned about him doing the same for our phone calls. Early on in our relationship, though, we did have a talk about my discomfort having phone conversations around other people, so I definitely do understand.

For me, I'm not comfortable with PDA (outside of "work-friendly" PDA, like what would be acceptable at a work BBQ or something), anyway. Having a conversation where pet names or gooshy things can pop out while I'm around other people puts me in that PDA headspace, and I end up feeling extremely self-conscious and uncomfortable. It feels like something that should be private to me.

A much smaller part of it is that, to me, it's rude to talk on the phone around others anyway (unless you're involving them in the conversation somehow). It's isolating, it tends to make people feel like they need to be quiet so you can have your conversation, and it really sucks the momentum out of whatever it was you were doing in the first place.

But then, I hate talking on the phone anyway, so I may be biased. ;)
 
Yes, that's essentially what Galagirl also suggested. I do view it as his time is now free if I cancel, and he can do what he wants with his free time. I'm not sure I was seeing it as "he's replacing me on MY night" as just "he's replacing me." Sort of an interchangeable parts thing; "Oh, I can't have KC tonight, so I'll just have (other partner) instead." Which is something I've called him on before, because it's something he tends to do any time any partner cancels on him.

It is his time free to spend however he wants, but to me it feels icky, whether I'm the canceling partner or the "replacement," that he immediately jumps to "I can't see one partner so I'll just see another." He did that to me a few times when another partner canceled on him (i.e. she canceled, so he called me to see if I was available), and I didn't feel any better about that than I did about this. When he does that, it feels to me like he's viewing us as interchangeable rather than individuals. I'm not sure how well I'm explaining it; it's a bit hard to put into words how I feel about that. What I can say is that when the situation has been reversed, and he has been the one to cancel, there have been times I've found something else to do, but I haven't seen another partner or gone on a date with a potential partner, because to me that feels like replacing him.

I think I understand what you're trying to explain about it feeling icky and not replacement. And while I'm afraid I don't have any great suggestions for HOW to go about this, would it be worth trying to focus on remembering that just because you feel a certain way about something, that it doesn't mean he feels the same way, and see if that makes it easier to accept different actions between you both? Like, if you find it feels like replacing someone to schedule time with another partner after a cancelled date, then don't. But he clearly doesn't feel like that is just replacing people, so if he doesn't feel that way, and your meta doesn't feel that way, then if they want to engage in that behavior, it's fine? I mean, to me, this is not really any different than if I was really craving ice cream and had planned to eat some, but then I realized my roomie ate the last of it. I'd be bummed that I couldn't have what I originally planned, but if I went and ate some chocolate instead, I'd still enjoy it, but it wouldn't be the same as eating ice cream. I still would have chosen the ice cream IF I COULD. But I couldn't. To me, the idea of something being replaceable/interchangeable would be more like... if your partner had a free night and was like "meh, I don't really care who I spend it with, you're all the same to me!" But that isn't the case. He wanted to do one thing but literally could not. So it's less about "replacing" and more that the option no longer exists. So now what he's left with is having to make a choice to do something as if that option were never there in the first place. Had you not been available in the first place on that night, he would have said "ok, here's the list of things that I can do. Oh, how about I call up X partner to hang out?." For poly people who have several partners, I tend to find that the default when the person has free time is that they're almost always going to make the rounds to see who is free, because time is already spread between people. So if the choice that is left to them is see a partner that is available vs not see a partner and have to do my own thing, most people pick seeing the partner (assuming they're not extreme introverts, etc.)

That sounds like a good solution, and it's something he has done at times.

.....

See above. It isn't about being suspicious. It's about it not being anyone's business what I'm saying except the person I'm saying it to. It's about having certain requirements for privacy in certain situations. I understand not everyone has those requirements, and that's fine, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong to have them.

I'm not sure how having random people I'm not connected to overhearing my conversation would serve to counter isolation. That sounds to me like I'm supposed to share everything with people I don't know or don't have any desire to connect with just so I'm not isolated. I don't think that's what you meant, so please clarify?

What I was saying about isolation was more that, the stricter your boundaries are around privacy, the fewer opportunities you have to actually then have conversations. If you're never willing to talk to someone on the phone unless they're totally alone, and that person is often around other peole, you're going to have fewer windows of opportunity where they CAN actually talk to you without violating your boundary. So certainly it's yours to keep, and you can have it if you want. I'm merely pointing out the consequences.

Also, I'd like to point out that while I understand that privacy is something you fought really hard for and were deprived from for so long, it might be worth examining whether maintaining such high levels of it now really gets you what you want. You're seeing now that you can basically have as much privacy as you want. The people in your life tend to for the most part respect that and you aren't having to fight for it. So if you're not having to fight for it, then you now have the ability to examine it and say "ok, having X level of privacy gives me A options, and having Y level of privacy gives me B options. Which of these (A, B, X, Y) is most important to me?

But also, if you change your level of desired privacy, be it more or less, that's totally your option and it doesn't have to be a permanent change. You can change it back any time you want. Basically, I'm not telling you that you HAVE to give up privacy, because you don't. But you also don't have to grasp and clutch onto it like someone is going to take it away any longer. You were a starved person who has now been given a buffet. I'm merely cautioning that eating a huge meal super fast can cause an upset stomach and the *idea* of eating all that food may sound so appealing that it's blinding you from even tasting the food, or taking the time to decide what items you really wanna eat, etc (have i taken this metaphor too far?! haha).



Thank you. Yes, I acknowledge that I sometimes have trouble giving people the benefit of the doubt. I will say, though, that while this is the first time this *particular* scenario has occurred, it is not the first time I've been afraid he'll replace me. That's a constant fear with anyone I get involved with, though I manage it much more appropriately with other partners than with my boyfriend. That might be because he's the first partner I had who actually had other partners, whereas with partners I've had since who are poly, I've had the experience with my boyfriend so it's easier to manage with them.

Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and I'm going to have to think about it to figure out why I can feel "used to it" with other partners, but not with my boyfriend who is my original poly partner.

I also acknowledge that I tend to catastrophize, and while I am able to recognize that I'm doing so, and I do try to logic myself out of it by correcting or changing those thoughts, the latter part is a work in progress. I'm better about it than I used to be, but sometimes the irrational emotions are still louder than the rational "You know that isn't how it is." I'm working on making the rational louder.

I do know he didn't intend any hurt or harm. I haven't questioned that. My intention in posting this thread--though I may not have been clear about it in my first post--was to acknowledge that *I* was not handling the situation well, and try to figure out healthier ways to handle any similar situations that might arise, as well as how to better address my insecurities so I don't have the constant fear of being replaced. It wasn't so much about what *he* did as about how *I* responded. *He* didn't do anything wrong or inappropriate. I did.

I appreciate your input, and it is helpful. Thank you.

When you have been able to catch yourself in the past and re-direct to give yourself time to snap out of the original extreme reaction, is there anything somewhat consistent that you can point to that has helped you to "snap out of it" so to speak? Not sure if there's any sort of patterns that you can look for, or moments where you can say "oh, historically when I've been able to catch myself, it was because X happened." Maybe that is something worth investigating?
 
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