So much for trying to be friends with the ex!

I broke up with Ginger in mid-July. Then I was slammed with summer activities, trips, and even a houseguest for three weeks. This delayed greatly my ability to grieve the end of our relationship and come to terms with it.

However, in the past month I have finally had time to do that. Meanwhile, Ginger continued his on-again-off-again relationship with the married couple, David and Carla. The mess of that relationship had driven me nuts. It was a major factor in my breaking up with Ginger. I found it upsetting and exhausting to know what an unethical fucked-up mess it was, and to be associated with it in any way.

It's hard to believe those three have been together (or broken up and back together) for six months now.

So, in the last monthm Ginger has been trying to chat with me online. We finally had two three-hour chats, and a couple of shorter ones, and agreed to meet to have a walk and talk.

That meeting happened yesterday.

I thought that C&D had broken up with him for good a month ago, and by now he'd have had a chance to grieve the ending of their jealousy-ridden relationship.

When we met, Ginger seemed very down. I was open to seeing if there was a way to be platonic friends with him. My gf miss pixi also wanted to know if she and he could continue as friends. I was also open to seeing if he and I could continue a sexual romantic relationship on a more casual basis, say, meet once a week. Ginger told me he came to this meeting opposed to being anything less than full-on lovers again. He didn't think he could be friends, because he is too sexually attracted to me. He didn't seem to think we could be more casual lovers either, even though we discussed how he did manage that with a former lover.

Finally, I found out he is still madly in love with Carla, and she with him. However, she is madly in love with her husband too, and "would rather die" than lose him or their kids.

So, he and she still chat online a lot, "more than we should," he said. I guess more than she and David agreed she would. Poor boundaries, poor negotiations. After all, they are poly newbies, which always annoyed me.

So, in the first hour of our meeting, I realized he was too distraught over his unfulfilling relationship with Carla to really have proper energy to have a healthy happy relationship, of any kind, with me.

Ginger and I had gone over our past issues in chat already, so we didn't need to rehash any of that. I was curious about what, if anything, we could salvage going forward. So, I wanted to really delve into where his head was at as far as poly relationships.

(For any of you that aren't familiar with all the background to this situation, you can go read all the details on my blog, starting back in April.)

In the past month, Ginger has hosted two large drum circles on his land. He has space on his acreage for plenty of parking, and has a fire pit. So, I asked if D&C had been to these two events. He told me, they both came to the first fire, but only David came to the second one. I asked why Carla didn't come. So, he asked if I wanted the short version or the medium version. I said, the medium. Then confession time started.

See, David has always been very jealous of Carla's love and lust for Ginger. However, he also cares for Ginger, and vice versa, and both men were bi-curious, though neither had ever had sex with another man. (Ginger is 61, David is 41.) So, David made a rule, and Ginger and Carla agreed, that after the first couple one-on-one dates for Ginger and Carla, from then on (all summer) all dates for Carla and Ginger would need to include David. All sex would have to be threesomes.

Meanwhile, Ginger has had many health issues since I have known him. Two tick-borne diseases, and this year, prostate enlargement that required surgery. He also had a pain in his back which was undiagnosed for a while, but was recently found to be a torn muscle which required PT. These issues led to problems with erectile dysfunction. So, the last months we were together, and his entire relationship with the couple, were impacted by this difficulty.

But he pursued a thing with them just the same, willy-nilly, while our sex life went down the tubes.

So, back to the present. He confessed that he and Carla snuck in a couple one-on-one dates behind David's back! She then lied about it to David, but he smelled a rat, and she gradually and painfully confessed. Then David made yet another rule: Carla and Ginger are not allowed to be in the same physical space, at all, anymore. She agreed to take her "punishment," and Ginger had no choice, as their secondary, but to go along with it.

All very painful, and distressing. Meanwhile I was upset by his ethics in having met with Carla behind David's back!

So, now I saw the real reason he can't re-establish some kind of relationship with me. He is too engrossed in this soap opera of a mess with his current lovers.

We dropped this topic for a while, and got back to whether, if he and I did resume, he could even have sex. In our recent chats, he had told me the prostate is healed, and the back is healing, although he hasn't been able to test it during actual sex with a partner since the breakup a month ago.

BUT, oh boy, BUT! He then proceeded to tell me that he and David got together last Thursday, Friday and Saturday for sex! Even though Carla is not "allowed" to be in the same room with Ginger, somehow the men have decided they can get together and have sex alone!

The more I read the less I can understand why you want to involve yourself in this mess in any way shape or form. He seems he justs craves and invites drama into his life.

Ginger confessed this (sex with David), after having told me a month ago that things were over between the three of them, except for trying to be friends and seeing each other at events. I said, I thought they had decided to go back to being monogamous? Apparently this is how David does monogamy? Fucks Ginger while Carla sits at home with their kids? And she is okay with this? No, I don't think she really is.

Adding here that Ginger has Asperger's syndrome and has a hell of a time understanding other peoples' emotions and motivations. So, we have a neurologically-challenged man, and two poly newbies who are very emotional, inexperienced, passionate and impulsive. Full of couple privilege, and doing all this shit while trying to raise three very young (3, 6 and 8-year old) children, no less!

What a mess. When Ginger finally, after talking for an hour and a half, confessed he is back together with David sexually, I felt like someone had poured a bucket of ice water over my head. My mouth went dry, I got up from the bench we were sitting on, and almost ran back to my van. Ginger requested a good bye hug, which I did give him, while reeling with disgust at his behavior.

So, it seems Ginger chose this fucked-up ethically sketchy relationship with these two sexy newbies, all the drama, all the pain, all the jealousy, cheating, coverups and lies, and yearning, over having a nice calm (fun passionate sexy) relationship with good old Mags, and a loving, sometimes sexy, r'ship with miss pixi.

This hurts. I'd begun to heal, but wanted to be open-minded and mature, and see if anything could be salvaged here. Apparently not. Case closed.

WhatToDo said:

The more I read the less I can understand why you want to involve yourself in this mess in any way shape or form. He seems he justs craves and invites drama into his life.

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Thanks for the feedback! I was considering whether to just post this in my blog, but I really want comments.

I think your question is probably rhetorical, but I will answer anyway. Ginger is very magnetic and charismatic. Tall, handsome, affectionate, a talented dancer and singer. He is actually very sincere and tender, but because he is Asperger's, and... well, a guy, he is dopey about handling emotions.

We are a 99% match on OKC, so shared many things in common (on the surface anyway).

Also, I am loyal and generous to a fault, a true Leo. I was loyal to my ex-husband from 1978 til 2008. We worked hard to make the marriage keep working. I was, and am motivated to discuss and compromise.

I've never been able, really, to stay friends with an ex. I am friendly with my ex-h since we are co-parents. We are cordial but not really friends. We don't hang out.

I wanted to see if I could not throw out the baby with the bathwater here with Ginger. Oh well. I gave it a shot. He really seems drawn to complications and drama. And I so am not!

miss pixi and I are currently seeing no other people. It's actually been really fun to have lots more time for each other! We are having a great time. More dates, lots more sex, lots of passion and energy for shared and individual hobbies and interests, household care, fun times with our platonic friends too, now and then.

I'm sorry things went that way with Ginger. Sounds like he still isn't sure what he wants, and he's doing things that aren't necessarily good for him, let alone for others involved.

It sounds like having some one-on-one time is a positive thing for you and miss pixi, at least.

I am sorry. . Sounds like he is still a mess and involved with messy people. I get that you wanted to make sure things were done between you and nothing was salvageable. It seems like you confirmed it for yourself.

At this time, what is your desired outcome? To finish grieving in peace?

Galagirl

I think you are making the right choice. It doesn't sound like the drama is finished yet and could possibly get much worse.

KC43 said:

I'm sorry things went that way with Ginger. Sounds like he still isn't sure what he wants, and he's doing things that aren't necessarily good for him, let alone for others involved.

It sounds like having some one-on-one time is a positive thing for you and miss pixi, at least.

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Yeah, I don't know what the hell he thinks he is doing, carrying on with David when Carla isn't "allowed" to see him. It sounds terrible. After all, Ginger conspired with Carla to deceive David. Guess they are just thinking with their dicks.

GalaGirl said:

I am sorry. Sounds like he is still a mess and involved with messy people. I get that you wanted to make sure things were done between you and nothing was salvageable. It seems like you confirmed it for yourself.

At this time, what is your desired outcome? To finish grieving in peace?

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I guess actually seeing him in person again after 2 1/2 months threw me. Part of me wants him so bad. Part of me is back to the bargaining stage, the "if onlys." I had a tough day yesterday. I need to let it all go. It's hard to do when he was such an intrinsic part of my life.

Bluebird said:

I think you are making the right choice. It doesn't sound like the drama is finished yet and could possibly get much worse.

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Much worse, like destroying C&D's marriage, harming it irreparably? Yes. I am glad to be free of the drama, their pain, their yearning. I can't imagine still being his gf and needing to support him through all this.

One more detail. Last week Ginger was the one who suggested getting together for a walk and talk. He said, "Let's see how we are together," and if it went well, he'd also come back to the house and visit with miss pixi.

But soon after we met, he told me he'd already decided continuing in any kind of relationship wasn't going to work for him. Hm, what had happened in those few days to make him change his position? Why, he'd broken his sex drought and gotten to have sex 3 days in a row with David, of course! So much for wanting me back, in that case.

Odd how he'd always insisted he didn't "need" sex, he just wanted it. How I needed it, but he could oh-so easily be content without. Yup. Sure. Not to hear him complain about it, during this past month of no sex.

A couple weeks ago when we were chatting, I'd asked him what he learned from these two relationships crashing and burning. He couldn't answer. Obviously he has no perspective. He doesn't know what he's doing, much less stepping back and actually learning something from it all.

Ugh. He has no honor. I have no respect for that. It seems so undignified in a 61-year old man. Pixi said he's acting like a college kid.

Ginger went 2 days not posting on FB. Today he posted a chipper phrase he often used to post. He's all happy now?

I messaged him. We had a fight. Things came out. David has been reading my blog again, despite promising me back in April, when he was doing that, that he'd stop.

So, hi David. Getting off on reading about my pain again, are we? Feeding Ginger snippets of what you read, out of context? To the point now, where Ginger declares I am lying about him and he "could" sue me for slander.

That's very honorable of you, David. You told me you wouldn't read my words here. You are now doing it anyway. When did you decide to start reading again? When Ginger and I broke up back in July? Or more recently, when you heard Ginger and I were going to meet and chat?

I know this is a public board and anyone can read here. I have no right to tell you to stop reading, stop feeding bits of my words to Ginger. But that doesn't make it right that you promised to leave my space for venting and feedback alone, and then went back on your word. You lied.

And Carla and Ginger cheated on you in some way, and she lied to cover it up.

Yet now Ginger is accusing *me* of lying when I am stating my opinions and sharing my pain here with my friends. Pffft.

I know you and Carla aren't out as poly. You're afraid someone you know might read here and recognize you. I however, am in pain over your (all 3 of your) behaviors, kind of reeling, feeling bitter. I want to get support.

Oh, for fuck's sake...

All things that touch your life are part of your story. If someone else is pissed off about you telling it, then maybe they should have been more careful about how they got involved in the first place.

Alternatively, they could tell their own story (after obfuscating their identities, of course). Nothing stopping anyone from doing that...

For goodness sakes, YAH, now Ginger is online chatting me still and telling me it *wasn't* David that read and reported on my posts back to Ginger! It's some other friend, girlfriend, minion, doing it! Ginger must have told her about my board and now whoever she is ("Older Lady" perhaps?), is getting all involved and reporting on my pain and words to Ginger, and he is telling me to fuck off and saying he "could" sue me for slander?

Jesus on a breadstick.

I even messaged David and he denied having been reading here. But now I don't know who to believe.

Now, Ginger is ordering me to stop blogging about him. Like he has the right.

Well technically you can't tell someone to stop reading something online.
They can read it and take info to do with whatever they like, including manipulation use.

Seems like you're back in the drama anyways. Just cut yourself off from them. Block them, change your number, locks if need be. Anything to do with all 3 of them. For you anyhow, no clue with miss pixi. They can have whatever to do with him if they want, and I'd make it clear that you would like to not be around either of the 3 if you can help it. No setups.

Stop blogging about YOUR life. Okay. Right.

(BTW, in case it didn't sound like empty bluster, a lawsuit would be untenable - the burden of proof of damages is on the plaintiff, not the defendant)

Again, I say if you don't like the way you're represented in a story, you should have thought about that while you were in it. Time to quit contact again, maybe? Sorry you found this isn't going to work, but I'm glad you're at least finding some closure (in amidst all the drama).

I had a tough day yesterday. I need to let it all go. It's hard to do when he was such an intrinsic part of my life.

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I am sorry you had a tough day yesterday. I agree, deciding to let it all go would probably be best for YOU at this point in time.

I do not see why he did not cancel the walk date if he'd decided after making it that there was no point in pursuing any kind of relationship with you. Why's he still bugging you then? Why not just check out? You are right to wonder what he wants from you.

I think he wanted your attention, any kind, not just sexual. Supply is supply. He continues to want attention from anyone, all the time. Hence the sneaking around with Carla on David, and the sneaking around with David on Carla, and trying to get you back to be his "regular audience" for unloading his "peccadilloes." Then all of you are paying him attention-- positive or negative, doesn't matter. He's still in the spotlight center stage of each of your worlds.

TBH -- at this point in time Ginger sounds more difficult than a pleasure to be around.

You could choose to stop all contact with him. In person, Facebook unfriend, etc. You could do behaviors that promote YOUR healing rather than choosing to do behaviors that promote your "crazy making" and his "getting more supply from Mags."

I'm really sorry you deal in this.

It's on you to choose to STOP dealing in this this. I encourage you to choose to let it all go and stop talking to any of these people, or about any of these people in any format they can access. Seek a counselor who you can do grief work privately with. (They cannot access that.)

Write if you need to vent/process, do it but do not post it. Why? You have every right to use the internet how you want. This is true. But you don't need to "feed" the attention hounds by making "supply" so easily accessible to them. You could cut off all their supply from you, especially if they are snooping. What is that other than someone seeking to get a new hit off you, sucking you dry? Jeez.

Stop online chatting with Ginger.

Do not message David.

Those are behaviors YOU can control. You could stop engaging with people you find dishonorable.

Now, Ginger is ordering me to stop blogging about him. Like he has the right.

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"Obey." Bam. Total cut off.

Not because HE says so, but because YOU say it is healthier for YOU to disengage from the circus and stop feeding the monkeys. Not your circus. Not your monkeys.

If you choose to engage in an argument with him over (him having/not having the right to boss you about) what is the bottom line attention-wise? Does he have your attention or not right now? Yup. Sure does. More supply for him. Even negative supply will do.

Could cut him off and let it go instead.

Galagirl

GalaGirl said:

Write if you need to vent/process, but do not post. Why? You have every right to use the internet how you want. This is true. But you don't need to "feed" the attention hounds by making "supply" so easily accessible. You could cut off all supply from you, especially if they are snooping. What is that other than someone seeking to get a hit? Jeez.

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I normally love your advice, GG, but I think I'm going to push back here.

One of the concepts we see repeated in various places is, "own your own shit." If they don't want to see that she's upset, they don't need to look, period. Polyamory.com doesn't seem to be a place they frequent, so it seems as though they're looking for problems. Why is it on Mags to protect them when they're going to lengths to find something to complain about?

I would, however, recommend dropping contact. Set the drama llama free.

So sorry to read that things are going this way.

I very much hope that things settle down again soon. Sounds like you will be very much better off without Ginger in your life.

IP

YouAreHere said:

I normally love your advice, GG, but I think I'm going to push back here.

One of the concepts we see repeated in various places is, "own your own shit." If they don't want to see that she's upset, they don't need to look, period. Polyamory.com doesn't seem to be a place they frequent, so it seems as though they're looking for problems. Why is it on Mags to protect them when they're going to lengths to find something to complain about?

I would, however, recommend dropping contact. Set the drama llama free.

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I think it's about protecting herself more than protecting them. She allowed herself to be drawn back into this drama in part because she was posting here. Ideally for her, she would shut out that drama and continue to post, but it seems like putting up that wall with these people is difficult for her. So it's not about what they see here, it's about her not allowing them to use it against her.

YouAreHere, that's okay, we can all have different POVs.

One of the concepts we see repeated in various places is, "own your own shit." If they don't want to see that she's upset, they don't need to look, period. Polyamory.com doesn't seem to be a place they frequent, so it seems as though they're looking for problems. Why is it on Mags to protect them when they're going to lengths to find something to complain about?

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Me? I think they ENJOY seeing her upset, and that is precisely why they come to look. For their pleasure. Like it is is some kind of twisted narcissistic-supply thing.

I view it more as her choosing to protect herself from them.

So for Mags to own her own stuff in order to reduce her exposure to toxic people, I think she could change some of her current behaviors.

• She could stop posting about them in public-access spaces, to reduce their ability to "mine for data" to ding her with. She could continue to share her thoughts with her friends over email instead.
• She could stop making dates in person with any of them to reduce their ability to ding her.
• She could stop online chatting with any of them to reduce their ability to ding her.
• She could stop messaging with any of them to reduce their ability to ding her.
• She could seek a grief counselor to help her. I think internet people have done what they can here. She could employ additional help/guidance at this point. This has been going on a while. She could progress in that area -- getting more non-internet people help.

I agree that they do not seem to frequent polyamory.com regularly on their own. They only seem come when looking for a supply hit, to kick up more drama to feed on.

Vampires.

I basically agree with Mags. There's a need to let it go. It's on her to do that, and get help doing that.

Galagirl

GG, I am making progress. Why would I not be?

I didn't see Ginger for over two months. He's been asking to chat me, see me, since mid-August.

In that two months, I was too busy to process because of summer activities. And I told Ginger that. I then took a couple more weeks for myself. Our houseguest left, miss pixi was away, and came back. I cared for myself.

I started to feel wonderful peace and connection with my real self. I was able to do some serious reading. (I love to read about the history of religions, heavy dry stuff I can't study when upset). I pursued my other hobbies, worked, and then finally have been reconnecting with miss pixi in wonderful ways.

Then, and only then, did I chat with Ginger and agree to meet him, to see if we could salvage a friendship. It's only been two days since we met. Of course I am still upset. One doesn't just snap one's fingers and get over things like this. Especially today, when he prevaricated, apparently to protect his spying minion, and let me believe it was David lurking and reporting again! Ginger said, I said things, lied, and it hurt the people he had asked me not to talk about, i.e., C&D. So it seems to me, his minion read my recent posts, reported to Ginger, and HE reported it to C&D, upsetting them. But somehow it's all my fault and I am a liar!

Fuck that shit.

Now he's acting like he and C&D are making wonderful progress, and having clarity. Pfft. He was crying on my shoulder two days ago at his frustration about not being able to be with Carla! How much progress can they have made in two bloody days? After three breakups, and cheating in the mix as well?

None of my business, in a way, but then again, I am embittered that he chose them, and six months of poly hell, over me and our undramatic relationship. I am free. I don't have small kids, or a jealous spouse, or tons of rules.

I guess I don't have a big hard cock though. There is that.