Three-way communication issues (from A to B via C)

[suziesue]

I am in a 'possible developing triad-ish situation' with Alan and Bridget, where we are all interested in each other. (For reference, my original thread explaining my situation is here.)

Recently I've been feeling like sometimes the dynamics of the communications between us feel a little weird. There have been a few similar incidents, all of which are quite small, but they've built up to make me feel a little uncomfortable.

One example: the last time I video-chatted with Alan we said we'd probably chat again Saturday night. Bridget subsequently asked me if she and I could chat Saturday night, and I said I already had a vague plan to do so with Alan, but I could talk to her beforehand, if she didn't mind that I would have to sign off at some point.

On the day, Alan and I exchanged a few emails to work out timings. He asked me if I was talking to Bridget first (he and she had obviously talked about it) which I confirmed, and he said he would text me when he was available.

But then, while I was chatting with Bridget, she suddenly said that she had to go, as Alan had texted her to say he was available to talk to me. I feel sort of odd that he contacted her to tell me he was available to talk to me, instead of directly texting me as we had arranged. But at the same time, it feels like making a mountain out of a molehill to bring it up. It was just a text, and the information did get to me.

I'm not entirely sure what it is about it that makes me uncomfortable. A feeling that it was a matter between him and me, and not directly involving her? Or possibly discomfort with getting information secondhand, because I feel that messages can lose something if they go by other people? And what if I'd decided to change plans with Bridget, and hadn't chatted to her after all?

So, more experienced poly people, is this something that would feel wrong to you and need dealing with? Or is the weirdness just an inherent part of having multiple relationships that I'm not used to, because I've only been with more than one person at a time before?

 

[IndieSolo]

And you chatted with him... but didn't ask why he texted her instead of you? You could have said, "Oh, I thought you were going to let me know when you were ready. Did I have that right?"

Personally, I don't see it as a big deal. For all you know, he could have just texted her by accident when he meant to text you. But if stuff bothers you, why sit on it?

 

[suziesue]

You seem to first say that I should have made a big deal of it, and then say it shouldn't be a big deal.

As I explained, this was one of several similar incidents, so it would be a pretty weird coincidence if he was repeatedly 'accidentally' contacting the wrong person, and it only happens when contacting me, and it always happens to be to her, don't you think?

 

[AnnabelMore]

You could have said, "Oh, I thought you were going to let me know when you were ready. Did I have that right?"

You seem to first say that I should have made a big deal of it, and then say it shouldn't be a big deal.

NYCindie's suggestion was to bring it up and seek clarification, which is not the same as making a big deal of it. In any relationship, but perhaps especially in polyamorous ones, it's important to feel comfortable enough to communicate freely, and not hold back little questions or issues until they become big ones.

 

[IndieSolo]

You seem to first say that I should have made a big deal of it, and then say it shouldn't be a big deal.

Really? Does the way I worded it -- "Oh, I thought you were going to let me know when you were ready. Did I have that right?" -- actually sound like making a big deal out of it to you? That's interesting, because I wrote it in a way that I thought was simply asking for clarification directly, without being infused with drama. And saying, "Did I have that right?" puts the responsibility on you to make sure you understood things correctly, so it doesn't come across as blaming. If you see that as making a big deal out of it, then perhaps you may need to look at getting more comfortable with being assertive and expressing what you need.

As I explained, this was one of several similar incidents, so it would be a pretty weird coincidence if he's repeatedly 'accidentally' contacting the wrong person, and it only happens when contacting me, and always happens to be to her, don't you think?

Yeah, well, when you said there were similar incidents, I didn't get that they were all about texting. Sorry about that. But how would I know what you meant by "similar?" They all could have been similar misunderstandings, but...?? Another example of the importance of clear communication.

So, basically, whether it's this issue or another, if something is bothering you, let them know. If you feel like you don't want to receive communications from Alan via Bridget, then tell him. You have a right to your feelings and to express your needs. There doesn't have to be any drama or fight about it to simply say something like, "You know, Alan, I'm uncomfortable when you promise to get in touch with me, and instead call Bridget. I feel left out when you do that. I would rather you communicate with me directly, especially when you say that's what you're going to do." And if you also make sure Bridget is aware of your needs, she can say to Alan when he calls or texts her, "Hey, please tell SuzieSue yourself."

So, is there anything that keeps you from doing that?

 

[suziesue]

Saying, "Did I have that right?" puts the responsibility on you to make sure you understood things correctly, so it doesn't come across as blaming.

YMMV, I guess. To me saying 'Did I have that right?' when I am not in any doubt about what was agreed seems more like a passive-aggressive ploy, rather than straight talking.

When you said there were similar incidents, I didn't get that they were all about texting. Sorry about that. But how would I know what you meant by "similar?" They all could have been similar misunderstandings, but...?? Another example of the importance of clear communication.

It doesn't seem at all relevant to me whether the messages are texts or emails or whatever. How would it be any more likely to be a series of coincidental accidents if it weren't mostly via texting?

The issue was me finding someone I'm intimate with contacting me via someone else weird.

So, is there anything that keeps you from doing that?

I wanted to find out if people with more experience of dealing with multiple relationships found this weird, or just considered it part of the territory, before deciding what, if anything, to do about it.

 

[AnnabelMore]

I would say that if it's about little things, it's no big deal. Yes, it certainly happens sometimes. But it truly doesn't matter if it's "normal" or not. If it bugs you, there's no reason not to say something. You can do that without making it into a big deal, whether you like NYCindie's way of wording it or not.

 

[IndieSolo]

YMMV, I guess. To me, saying 'Did I have that right?' when I am not in any doubt about what was agreed seems more like a passive-aggressive ploy, rather than straight talking.

Fair enough. I see your point. However, you might have no doubt about what was said and still be recalling it incorrectly.

It doesn't seem at all relevant to me whether the messages are texts or emails or whatever. How would it be any more likely to be a series of coincidental accidents if it wasn't mostly via texting?

Oh well, I'm an old fart who has never Skyped and actually remembers how to use a telephone, mail a letter. LOL. I don't really like to text all the time, so I don't assume that all communications in a relationship are via texting.

You said in your original post: "Recently I've been feeling like sometimes the dynamics of the communications between us feel a little weird. There have been a few similar incidents, all of which are quite small, but build up to make me feel a little uncomfortable."

Now I understand, because you are making it clear with further posts, that the "similar incidents" are similar because they all have to do with text messages. You could have meant similar in the sense that they make you uncomfortable, but wouldn't necessarily have anything to do with texting. These similarities could have come up in face-to-face conversations. Or it could be similar in the sense that Alan didn't keep his word, and again, nothing to do with texting. There are so many elements about this "incident" that could be similar to other things, so don't rake me over the coals for not understanding you! I am actually trying to help, but I will back off now because I don't think I'm contributing in a way that you can absorb without getting a tad defensive. Sorry to fuck up your thread.

 

[suziesue]

Now I understand, because you are making it clear with further posts, that the "similar incidents" are similar because they have to do with text messages. You could have meant similar in the sense that they make you uncomfortable, but wouldn't necessarily have anything to do with texting. These similarities could have come up in face-to-face conversations. Or it could be similar in the sense that Alan didn't keep his word, and again nothing to do with texting. There are so many elements about this "incident" that could be similar to other things, so don't rake me over the coals for not understanding you!

No, that is *not* what is similar. It is nothing to do with the medium of the message; it is *not* all via text. The similarity is the thing that feels weird to me-- him communicating to her (via whatever medium) and expecting that to be relayed to me, i.e., the thing that my post was about.

I'm not trying to rake you over the coals, just trying to bring things back on topic, when you seem determined to make this about other things (i.e., technology, accidental texts, my assertiveness, etc.).

I am actually trying to help, but I will back off now because I don't think I'm contributing in a way that you can absorb without getting a tad defensive. Sorry to fuck up your thread.

I accept that I have been overly defensive in my replies to you, and I apologize for this. I appreciate the spirit in which your comments where intended, even where I do not agree with the contents. Clearly the approach I took with this thread was not effective, and that is my problem, not yours. Sorry.

 

[suziesue]

Okay, I'm going to try again:

Dear people with experience of multiple partners,

Do you find in your relationships there is inevitably a certain amount of communication that goes via other partners to get to you, or do you view this as negative, or try to avoid this?

I am not looking to establish what is 'normal.' I understand that different people's relationships are different. I'm not going to try to directly apply anything from your relationships to mine. I'm just interested in hearing your experience.

Thank you.

 

[Jade]

Yes. I don't particularly like it, but sometimes, it can't be helped. When I think it can be helped, I ask my OSO directly why his message came to me indirectly.

 

[BrigidsDaughter]

We often pass messages along through each other. Pretty Lady rarely logs onto Skype, YIM, or even Facebook, and is usually picking the kids up from afterschool activities when we are picking up Wendigo. So if we want to get a response about something we've sent her, we will ask Wendigo to relay the message and let us know what she has to say.

Frequently, when I'm talking to Wendigo on Skype, and Runic Wolf isn't online, he and Wendigo will talk to each other through me, and Wendigo will pass along our good-night hugs to Pretty Lady. It works for us, for the most part.

 

[redpepper]

Do you find in your relationships there is inevitably a certain amount of communication that goes via other partners to get to you, or do you view this as negative, or try to avoid this?

Yes, there is, and I have grown to trust that there is no deceit involved, and no reason for me to be concerned, just as long as I get the information and it is correct. Does it really matter who someone talks to as long as you are kept in the loop and things happen as is said they will?

If the information gets jumbled at some point, then I will address that and ask whomever to come straight to me instead. I support going right to the person whenever possible, and they do too, but sometimes it just saves time, and that's fine. I don't take it on. We are more than two and that is just part of it. It's not the same as two, where there is direct communication all the time.

I liked NYCindie's response of what to say. I don't find it passive aggressive at all. I never assume I know anything. I always check, even if I'm pretty sure I got it right. I tend to repeat back what people say quite often. Sometimes what I understood to be what they said is different than what they meant, or different from what I understood.

If I were you, I would try to make sure there is not a passive-aggressive tone, and just ask for clarification. Then say, "I am just learning about how you two communicate." I find that all too often people get too caught up in how they might come across, wanting to express they are right in some way, as if it's a competition, and make assumptions about what was said. I just ask for clarification. It's more productive and I rarely get defensive or resentful as a result. Those I ask get to feel like I care, that I paid attention and that I respect their input and participation.

 

[suziesue]

Frequently, when I'm talking to Wendigo on Skype, and Runic Wolf isn't online, he and Wendigo will talk to each other through me and Wendigo will pass along our good-night hugs to Pretty Lady.

Aww. That made me smile so much to read. That sounds like a very happy and comfortable situation.

Yes, there is. I have grown to trust that there is no deceit involved and no reason for me to be concerned.

I think this pretty much hits the nail on the head for me. I don't think I do trust that messages would get to me unadulterated. Hmm... I can't think why I would think that. Perhaps there are issues here I need to think through.

I support going right to the person whenever possible, and they do too, but sometimes it just saves time, and that's fine.

Oh, I certainly agree there are times when message passing just makes sense, but these particular cases don't seem to be about circumstance or convenience.

We are more than two, and that is just part of it. It's not the same as two, where there is direct communication all the time.

Hmm... I feel I do have a bit of a problem with that. I like the intimacy of hearing from people directly. The way someone says something lets you read so much more about what they are thinking and feeling than just the surface communication. (I like video chat much more than telephones, just because I find people easier to understand when I can see body language, for example,)

This is my first foray into dating more than one person. Possibly there are things about it I just won't be able to make work for me.

I liked NYCindie's response of what to say.

I'm not really sure what to say about your last two paragraphs, as I haven't been asking for advice on what to say. If I decide to bring it up (which at this point, I think I will), I will do so in my own way.

 

[redpepper]

I'm not really sure what to say about your last two paragraphs, as I haven't been asking for advice on what to say. If I decide to bring it up (which at this point I think I will), I will do so in my own way.

I would hope you do.

Sometimes it helps to hear what other people would actually say. I dunno, it helps me, anyway. I find that when I get words rather than or along with concepts, I get what people mean in a different way.

I don't think anyone is expecting you to use their words as is... just to think about the concepts behind them and see if they are useful to you in thinking about who you are and how you could address the issue in the best way for you.

 

[suziesue]

I managed to talk to Alan today. He was confused, saying 'Surely I did text you,' but then he checked his phone, and ended up showing me the messages on it.

Basically, Bridget had been texting him, in a way that implied the messages were on my behalf, or from both of us (it's a bit hard to explain without repeating their whole conversation). But in places she says things like 'Suzie needs to know what time you will be online'. But I specifically hadn't asked him for a time in advance, as I didn't want him to make a promise and then stress if he couldn't make it, and I was at home all evening anyway, so it didn't matter to me. I'd told Bridget that he was just going to call when he was ready. Also, at the end of the conversation she said that I was very tired (which I wasn't) and asked him to promise her he wouldn't keep me up talking to me very long.

It also came up that a previous incident was because she had told him that she and I had discussed something and come to an agreement about it, when she hadn't even mentioned the subject to me!

By this point, Alan was very apologetic, and I was feeling guilty that he was feeling bad about it (although still glad I bought it up), so we just changed the subject and moved on.

So, feeling pretty confused, I called Bridget to ask her about it, and she said that it was because she cared about me she was 'watching out for me.' She said it was 'unfair' of Alan not to give me a time in advance, or to talk to me so late (I'm sure I've chatted to her just as late on occasion!), and that the agreement thing was 'in my interest,' even if I didn't explicitly know about it.

I was getting a bit annoyed at this stage and said that I felt it was up to me to decide what was fair or not for me, not her.

She then started saying I was wrong to read her private text messages, which, to be fair, I kind of agree with. It just sort of spontaneously came up in the moment, with Alan going, 'Look, you guys were texting me about this...' and showing me, so I didn't even really think about it. In hindsight, I probably should have declined to read them and just said I didn't know the content of anything she was sending to him.

I then asked her if the three-way situation was making her unhappy or jealous, and she said there were some things that she felt she 'didn't have the right to ask for.' I asked her if she would be happier if Alan and I weren't perusing a relationship with each other, but she refused to answer the question.

So right now, I'm feeling in a bit of a mess. I feel guilty that I may have been hurting Bridget by seeing Alan, but I don't want to stop seeing Alan. (And writing that makes me feel like a horribly selfish person.) I also feel that Bridget has been being, er... manipulative, I guess? It's a bit of a stronger word than I mean, really, just that she had been subtly (and probably not consciously) trying to control interactions between Alan and me, so I feel I can't trust her.

 

[IndieSolo]

Oh shit, what a mess. Here it seems that Alan did make a mistake, but only because it was Bridget who was interfering. Yes, I'd be irritated to say the least, if not just plain pissed off, that she was lying to him and trying to manipulate how you communicated. She was very passive-aggressive there. It's not irreparable or a huge betrayal, but I would feel distrustful of her, too. And the whole thing about saying you shouldn't have looked at her texts doesn't hold water, because she was sending them to make them look like they were on your behalf!! He showed them to you, because he thought you were a party to sending them, so it wasn't wrong of you to look. Her having done that is indeed super manipulative and controlling.

I admire you for expressing your feelings to them right off the bat in the conversations you had. You didn't let it stew. It is obvious you have a good sense of self, think clearly, and are unafraid to communicate with them. So, I am sure, if you feel the need to speak to her further, you will find a way to tell her about the distrust you are feeling, because that was not cool of her to do. However, you then second-guess yourself. Why feel guilty about bringing up something like this, where a deception has been uncovered? It was not your fault that he felt "bad" or weird about what happened. He was apologetic, but it sounds like he was probably confused more than anything, AND he was hurt by Bridget, not you.

What stands out to me, though, is that you are wondering if your relationship with Alan is messing this up with him and Bridget. It sounds like you thought that you should step back from seeing Alan if she is uncomfortable. But why? That is sort of saying that her relationship with him takes precedence over your relationship with him.

I skimmed through your other thread, and it sounds like, except for the distance between you and them (how far?), things all came together serendipitously and you have a history with both of them. But you are feeling like you are coming between them somehow, or like you are having to be split in your loyalties to one or the other. It sounds to me like all three of you would benefit from having a group discussion (on video, I guess) and air out the dirty laundry.

Shining the light of day on things can only do good, even if it's uncomfortable for a while. Best of luck.

 

[Anneintherain]

By this point, Alan was very apologetic, and I was feeling guilty that he was feeling bad about it (although still glad I bought it up), so we just changed the subject and moved on.

So, feeling pretty confused, I called Bridget to ask her about it, and she said that it was because she cared about me she was 'watching out for me'. She said it was 'unfair' of Alan not to give me a time in advance, or to talk to me so late (I'm sure I've chatted to her just as late on occasion!), and that the agreement thing was 'in my interest', even if I didn't explicitly know about it.

I then asked her if the three-way situation was making her unhappy or jealous, and she said there were some things that she felt she 'didn't have the right to ask for'. I asked her if she would be happier if Alan and I weren't perusing a relationship with each other, but she refused to answer the question.

So right now, I'm feeling in a bit of a mess. I feel guilty that I may have been hurting Bridget by seeing Alan, but I don't want to stop seeing Alan. (Writing that makes me feel like a horribly selfish person.) I also feel that Bridget has been being, er... manipulative, I guess? It's a bit of a stronger word than I mean really, just that she had been subtly (and probably not consciously) trying to control interactions between Alan and me, so I feel I can't trust her.

Yes, that is a mess.

Don't feel guilty that Alan felt badly. Of course you were right to bring it up. Operating from guilt is going to keep you from looking out for yourself and your needs and wants. YOU are not hurting Bridget by seeing Alan. If she is unhappy, she needs to be addressing it, with Alan, with her friends, and with you, if she wants to discuss it with you. Leaving the door open for her to talk to you is one thing, but I think you have done that, and shouldn't bring it up again.

I want to say I see a possible parallel here. She misled Alan and manipulated the situation in an effort to "look out for you." You asking her if she would be happier if you and Alan weren't dating could easily lead to the same thing, as you feel so guilty, you might start altering your behavior in order to give her "more" to try to be less of a "threat" to their relationship. Your motivations wouldn't be as selfish, but they could still be just as destructive to all of the relationships involved.

Be caring, but don't overly invest in trying to help her be honest with the issues she is having. That's work she has to be doing on her own volition.

I would be very clear that I appreciate that she cares about you, but you can and will look out for your needs directly with Alan. I'd probably suggest you say that you more or less insist she not communicate with him about what she thinks you'd want unless you've actually clearly stated such, and said you were okay with her sharing your conversation.

Truthfully, her telling Alan what she thinks you want from your private talks with her could be just as much of a privacy violation as you seeing what their text messages were.

I would remind her that her ideas about what is fair/unfair, right/wrong for HER and her relationships are not necessarily how you feel about your relationships, and that you will make your own decisions. I think all that can be said lovingly and kindly, while still drawing firm boundaries.

Hmm... I'm not sure that was very succinct, but I do hope you see that if something bothers you (enough to bring it up on a forum looking for advice, even) that you should bring it up, and not worry that you're making a fuss out of nothing. Pay attention to your instincts.

 

[AnnabelMore]

I then asked her if the three-way situation was making her unhappy or jealous, and she said there were some things that she felt she 'didn't have the right to ask for'. I asked her if she would be happier if Alan and I weren't perusing a relationship with each other, but she refused to answer the question.

If I were you, I would encourage Alan to find out from her what needs she's not expressing, what she feels she doesn't have a right to ask. There may be some fairly simple changes that could be made to make her more comfortable, or there could be deeper problems, but either way, getting it out in the open will be the best way to keep this sneaky stuff from happening again. If you think she'd not take it poorly, you could also tell her that you've encouraged him to bring it up, and that, of course, it's their relationship to sort out, but that you want to find a way to make this work for everyone involved.

So right now, I'm feeling in a bit of a mess. I feel guilty that I may have been hurting Bridget by seeing Alan, but I don't want to stop seeing Alan. (Writing that makes me feel like a horribly selfish person.) I also feel that Bridget has been being manipulative... It's a bit of a stronger word than I mean really, just that she had been subtly (and probably not consciously) trying to control interactions between Alan and me, so I feel I can't trust her.

It makes sense to feel bad about it. After all, what jerk would *want* to be the cause of strife between their SO and metamour? But don't fall into the trap of assuming that because she feels bad, you did something wrong. Guilt's not called for here.

And yes, she was being manipulative. I think there are too many examples there to claim it was unconscious, and her trying to turn things around and guilt you over looking at the messages, when it was Alan showing them to you, and when they were about you, just confirms the pattern of manipulation. Hopefully it's something she can get past by being honest about the difficulties she's having.

Good on you for delving into this situation and exposing the real problem, rather than just letting something slide that was making you uncomfortable.

 

[suziesue]

You then second-guess yourself. Why feel guilty about bringing up something like this, where a deception has been uncovered? It was not your fault that he felt "bad" or weird about what happened.

To clarify, the guilt was about him apologizing profusely to me for something that I didn't feel he could have done any differently. I told him it was okay, and moved on from the subject, because I didn't want him to blame himself for something that wasn't his fault.

You are wondering if your relationship with Alan is messing this up with him and Bridget. It sounds like you thought that you should step back from seeing Alan if she is uncomfortable. But why? That is sort of saying that her relationship with him takes precedence over your relationship with him.

I see what you are saying with this. But it's not really about precedence, or whose relationship is more important in my head. It's a feeling of, 'If I am hurting someone I care about by doing X, then I should stop X.'

It sounds to me like all three of you would benefit from having a group discussion and air out the dirty laundry. Shining the light of day on things can only do good, even if it's uncomfortable for a while.

I think you are right. I'll try to arrange this.