Three monos (?) and one poly, heading into the unknown. (Triad or quad?)

C

CowleyRoad

New member
Two months ago I wouldn't have even thought about going here. But the last two months have been a wild roller coaster of events involving me, my wife, a polyamorous lady, and her possibly-unwilling partner, and we're in need of some serious advice.

I'm a straight male, aged 36, and I've been married to my wife for five years. About two years ago, my wife Sky came out to me as bisexual, actually closer to, "If it weren't for you, I'd probably be a lesbian," even though she hadn't had a physical relationship with a woman at the time. Over the course of the last year or so, we've talked about expanding our sexual experiences to other people, and about three months ago we finally decided to sign up to a swingers' site. I think that we realized the futility of "chasing unicorns" (I'd never heard that phrase before, love it!) and figured our best chances at getting what we were looking for was to find another couple like us.

So, one of the couples who responded to us were Brook (her) and Hunter (him). My wife Sky was attracted to Brook's curvy picture and her breathless writing style, and Brook responded in kind. We e-mailed and texted back and forth, and it seemed that Brook and Hunter were pretty familiar with this lifestyle, throwing in references to frequent "play" with others. Although Brook was doing the lion's share of the writing to us, it seemed that Hunter was up for everything too. It didn't take long for things to get heavy, and we agreed to meet up. Well, that went fabulously, and despite Brook's concern that we might not be able to meet again right away, the four of us just went ahead and met anyway in a hotel room soon after. *blush*

Then, all the pennies started dropping. First off, Brook let us know that she was poly, but that Hunter was mono. And Hunter didn't seem as comfortable with our swinging arrangement as they had let on before. Turned out that Brook hadn't been with a man other than Hunter in years, possibly ever since they got together--which probably explained a lot of his discomfort. (It also made me wonder who the "play" had been with... Maybe they were "catching unicorns" all this time?)

A lot of the things that we were sort of picking up from them started making sense Although it's clear they have a very loving relationship, it's also clear Brook "wears the pants" in their relationship, and Hunter is hanging on to her for dear life. She's been mono for him for six years, at least as far as men are concerned, but reading between the lines, it seems she's looking for something more. And we're starting to think it's us, or maybe just me.

Sky has picked up a lot of infatuation from Brook for me. Hell, I've picked it up, and usually I have to be beaten with a stick to notice these things. Hunter is a very nice guy, but there are a lot of similarities between Brook and me that Hunter just doesn't share. I'm pretty sure that Brook's poly tendencies are on super high alert. Brook claims that Hunter is okay with what's going on, and that he's "really comfortable" with Sky and me, but I don't know if that's reality, or wishful thinking from Brook.

From at least one point of view, this is all going well. Sexually we're all getting along like a house on fire! After being with Brook, there's little question that Sky is indeed bi; sparks fly between Brook and me; and even Sky and Hunter were in a nice groove. But as I semi-jokingly said to Sky earlier tonight, "Who would have thought that emotions could get in the way of sex?" :eek:

Sky and I had agreed long before this all started that we'd be amicable to an occasional long-term sexual relationship with the right couple, and from a sexual standpoint, Brook and Hunter seem to be that couple. But I don't know how much further we could go without Brook wanting more than that, and we don't want to hurt Hunter. If he honestly came to the conclusion that he could live a poly lifestyle too... well, we'd decide what to do at that point. But I'm not sure we'd believe him, so unbalanced does their relationship appear from the outside. I don't think we'd believe he wasn't doing it just to hang on to Brook.

So... help?
 
That's a sticky one. Seen it several times myself. I bet a fly on the wall in their house would hear some interesting conversations between those two!

You and Sky need to have a very open discussion with them. Explain your concerns. You may even want to take Hunter out for a guys' night and talk over beer without the ladies present; while that goes against the policy of open communication that is so necessary to make these relationships really work, you might get some things out of him that he wouldn't be comfortable discussing with Brook around.

Be that as it may, all these concerns need addressed before things go beyond a casual encounter or two.
 
I agree with HMA: I think a guys' night out is a great idea, for the same reasons. I really wouldn't go any further with all of this until you have openly addressed some of your thoughts with both of them, separately and together.
 
That makes me smile. I'm not sure if I know the divisions on this forum (or if there even are any) but I know of similar places where certain subjects allow the "lion to lie down with the lamb." Then it's time to listen to what they're both saying.

I want to sit down and talk to Hunter, but it's increasingly apparent that it won't happen. It seems that all of us are experiencing NRE, but only if you replace "New" with "Nervous" as the N. I think in various ways we're all feeling it. Hunter is concerned that he'll lose Brook. Brook is concerned that Hunter is getting jealous. Sky is starting to get concerned that Brook and Hunter don't like us that much after all (despite some texts earlier this week after our hotel room rendezvous that suggested the opposite) and is starting to suggest that maybe they don't ever want to see us again. I feel trapped in the middle of all of this, trying to balance my own emotions with everyone else's. I realize that's not a healthy situation for me to be in. I'm trying very hard to stand away from my "Helper" (Myers-Briggs type) personality, but it isn't easy.

I've told Sky that I'm happy with any result from all of this, from "We never see them again," to "We have a long-term relationship of some sort with them," except one: that I lose Sky. That's the only thing that would devastate me, to lose her, and as a result I just want to do what's best by her. But I'm afraid she's not sure of what that is herself. This whole situation has brought up a range of emotions I haven't seen from her in years, from boundless enthusiasm to abject fear. I know it's hard for her.

I think all of this has brought me a new understanding of the difficulties polyamorous folks must face. I've only known a couple poly folks, and not very well. Juggling four different people's emotions (and then further to try to avoid the mental chess game of "What does this person think about that person, and what is that person not telling this person?") is one of the hardest things I've tried to deal with as a "Helper." In the end, I just want to pursue the path that will cause the least hurt. The problem is, I'm starting to fear that all four of us are going to be hurt, because we're all going to blame ourselves for letting everyone else down.
 
Here's a thought: if you want relationships with the other couple, then keeping it about sex will keep it, well, mostly just about sex. That's okay, of course, especially in the swinger arena. But if you want to be emotionally close, then the swinger approach may not be what you're after.

A guys' night is a good idea, especially when endorsed by RP and HMA. Another thought is some time with the four of you together non-sexually. Day at the park with dinner afterward at a nice restaurant? A half-day road trip? I don't know what you all like to do, but maybe just being around each other casually for awhile will ease the nervousness. Or it may trigger something that tells you this couple is not what you hoped.

You describe Sky's emotions as ranging from boundless enthusiasm to abject fear. This might indicate that she doesn't know how to feel because she doesn't know the people well enough. Without understanding them and where they're coming from, she's running wild between hope and despair.

Maybe besides being a helper you need to put on a calm-gentle-wise hat. Smooth the troubled waters. Point out to your darling wife that as knowledge replaces speculation, unfounded hopes and wild fears will fade, and that knowing people simply takes time. The other couple will also be feeling some of this craziness, and perhaps that's also topic for discussion with Brook, since she seems to be the dominant personality in the other couple. Or with Hunter, as well.

I dunno. You've described the situation in good detail, but it's always hard for outsiders to know for sure what personalities are like and how things really are. You're the one who does know that, so take what I've written with healthy skepticism. Good luck!
 
Be careful, Mr. Helper, that you don't help your way out of what you need and want.

Going the path of the least amount of any kind of emotion is not always the best path. Sometimes facing some stuff is the best path to more comfort and stability. It might be a good idea to check your intentions with this relationship and ask for your needs to be met, regardless of what you "think" is going on for the others.

Sky might be experiencing stuff she hasn't been known to for a number of years, but that doesn't mean you are the authority on her emotional life just because you are witnessing it. She is the keeper of everything in her life. It isn't up to you to look after her in your poly relationship. It's her responsibility. The sooner she starts being independent in this way, the better it will be for everyone.

Where you are now is the point that things change in that regard from what you experienced in monogamy. There becomes a separation in this way. Those that are brought into poly by their partner are pulled at this point, because they didn't sign up for a poly relationship and the independence it requires. The pull from mono to poly is difficult, for sure. You two have chosen this together, so you stand a better chance of getting your needs met.

The good news is that you get to make yourself your own primary and so does Sky. In doing so, you will see each other differently and relate to the world differently. The time is now to work on what YOU would like, and be honest with yourself and Sky about it. Encouraging the others to do the same will mean you will all be on the same page and moving forward together.
 
Redpepper, thanks for the dose of reality. To paraphrase Adrian Monk, being a helper personality is a blessing and a curse. The blessing is that you're a lot more empathetic, the curse is that you don't know your own mind, and you have a habit of putting yourself last. And you always second-guess yourself, as I'm probably doing now.

EugenePoet, you're right that Sky was probably feeling down about something else and took it to this situation. Truth be told, I think she and Hunter share that in common. Actually, maybe Brook does too, based on what we've heard from the both of them since I last wrote. This is a rather odd turn of events for me, to have the highest self-esteem in any random group of four.

So we're going to meet up again, maybe this weekend, and I'll talk to Hunter on his own if that happens. The one thing I'm very glad about is that Sky knows what I said here, that the only result I can't live with is losing her. I think that resonates. I don't know if I'll ever be able to think of her as "primary" and I don't know if I'll ever feel comfortable with even casual polyamory (there I go again as Mr. Helper, not knowing my own mind). But knowing we'll be together is what I needed to hear most.
 
Thanks so much FireStorm.

It looks like... Sigh. I don't know. Brook and Hunter really, really want to see us again, and Sky is starting to get concerned. Sometimes she says she wants to see them again, sometimes not. I never know if the times she says she wants to see them is just in trying not to hurt me, or hurt them...I never know what the truth is.

I can't imagine a life without her, and I want to do what she likes. I realize that part of this has to be about myself, but I suppose it's hard to find a middle ground if she doesn't want it. Of course, at times she has said she's wanted it, and I don't want to be the one who stops her from having it. I know the answer is communication, but I don't think she knows what she wants, either. Having gone this far, and still not knowing... I don't know what to think any more.

There is part of me that says, yes, I want to lie next to Brook again, and use what my wife calls "the hidden talents" to turn her into a giggly, quivering multi-orgasmic mass. I think we'd all feel that was flattering, to have someone feel that way at their touch. But at the expense of losing my wife, no, I can't do that. She says I can't do anything to lose her. I'll never know if that's true unless it happens.
 
CowleyRoad said:
She says I can't do anything to lose her. I'll never know if that's true unless it happens.
Click to expand...

I love this statement. I see the truth in it because no person can accurately predict how they will respond to a situation without actually experiencing it. Sometimes you just have to trust and take that step, though. It's an internal debate of worth versus cost. We can mitigate the risk by listening to more than just the words we hear.
 
Speaking as someone who has never been in your situation, I can't help but draw the parallel to what this would look like if this were two individuals rather than two couples feeling this way. One really wanting to get together again, the other unsure. Wouldn't the answer in that case be pretty clear-- that they needed to get to know one another a little better before having sex again? I'd vote for the 4 of you, and parts thereof, spending some more time together doing other things, including talking, but also just ordinary clothed fun. Dating, sort of. Then the other couple isn't getting a complete brush off, but Sky gets some time to figure out how she really feels about them, and what she wants (and you do too). Put on the brakes, since no one knows which way to steer.

Also, please turn your wife into a "giggly, quivering multi-orgasmic mass" asap. The world needs as much of that as possible!;)
 
CowleyRoad said:
There is part of me that says, yes, I want to lie next to Brook again, and use what Sky calls "the hidden talents" to turn her into a giggly, quivering multi-orgasmic mass. But at the expense of losing Sky, no, I can't do that. She says I can't do anything to lose her. I'll never know if that's true unless it happens.
Click to expand...

This indicates to me that you don't necessarily have a poly relationship with them, and perhaps it would be helpful to see it as simply "open." I notice you didn't say, "I can't wait to sit beside her and talk about life the universe and everything." You mention the sex. If you don't love her or them, then it's just a couple you like to have sex with. End of story. No problem. No worries. Just as long as she, he or they don't fall in love with you or Sky. That would mean actually having emotions, rather than feeling horny.

Just a thought. Perhaps you and Sky are over-thinking this.
 
I haven't posted an update in a while and I figured that I should now.

Sky and I went back and forth on meeting Brook and Hunter again. Eventually Sky confessed that her concern was that she either might feel rejected or might lose me. I assured her that nothing could make her lose me, and that I was afraid I might lose her instead. I suppose sometimes even if you talk over something for years (as we did) you still can't be sure how you'll feel when it happens. We decided that we weren't emotionally ready for a poly relationship, but we both felt that we did want to see Brook and Hunter one more time for sex. Sky thought all of us were nervous the first time around and the second time might be better, and I agreed.

So we met up with them again for a sex-only meeting. And the sex was awesome... for Brook and me. Afterwards, Sky admitted that Hunter was a-- how should I put this? brute-force lover. It was obvious to me that she wasn't enjoying his attentions, but she was really enjoying watching me and Brook. Sky tried to have fun with Brook, as well, but was so sore from Hunter's pounding that she couldn't.

(Geez, I didn't intend to write like this, but it is important for the resolution. Trust me.)

We'd always agreed that if this weren't fun for both of us, it shouldn't continue. Even though Sky enjoyed the voyeuristic aspect of it, it wasn't difficult for us to decide that it might be a good idea to end this. As Sky said (and again, sorry this is TMI), "I don't need to be turned into hamburger."

So, the end, right? Well, I thought so, until we got a message from Brook, which was all over the map. "If you don't want CowleyRoad to meet up with me alone, that's okay!"

Wait. What about Hunter?

"We can still be friends, or maybe something more. We just have so much to offer each other!"

Yikes. It seems that Brook wants to make an end-run around Hunter, and that's bad, because she's the one interested in polyamory, not him.

So, up until now, we'd been thinking, "Right, we'll end this," no hard feelings on either side. But it does appear that Brook wants things to continue in some way.

Gah, we weren't ready for this. Especially after Sky had said semi-seriously that she might be up for seeing Brook without Hunter, but quickly added she would never try to hurt Hunter's feelings that way. And even though I am totally on board with ending it, it's still hard on a primal level to resist the siren call of Brook. We didn't want to go without hurting Brook, but it looks like that might happen anyway.

Mainly, all of this has brought me a new understanding of different lifestyles. We talked about this for years and it is still emotionally draining for us!

Those of you who are in this lifestyle, and have cared enough to take the time to help me out, thank you so much. :) I have the utmost respect for you. This was just too much for us to handle. It was great that Sky could explore her bisexuality, and that she could "share the wealth," as she put it, but it's time to step back.
 
With all due respect for anyone with a different definition of poly for themselves, to me, you didn't experience polyamory at all. You experienced swinging. A relationship based on sex hook-ups is not polyamory. So, just to let you know, your comment about those of us being in this "lifestyle" I did not take as being directed to me or anyone here on this forum. At least in accordance with my identification of myself as polyamorous. It might be semantics, but just in case you decide to try again with others, or tell people you tried polyamory, it might be worth prefacing your discussions with others and thoughts on the topic with "My description of polyamory is getting together to have sex with people I care about," or, "My polyamory would mean getting to know you and love you before taking it to the next level," if in fact that fits better.

I don't mean to sound snarky. I realize I might come off as such, but I just get a little concerned when people try stuff out, and then diss it because it didn't work for them, and might not be using a term that fits the description of what they actually were trying out. Does that make sense?

I'm sorry it didn't work out, though. It sounds like you had some fun sexy times and really sometimes that is all it is. That is fun too. It sounds like you took it for what it was and are moving on. It doesn't sound to me like they wanted more than some fucking. Doesn't sound like you want more than that either. Perhaps "swingers" is a good term to identify with for you.
 
Well, Redpepper, I would have agreed with you, but then last night...

Sky was convinced that Brook and Hunter weren't into her, at all. I suppose that she has some serious self-esteem issues at times, and it's hard for her sometimes to view a situation in a neutral light. Last night she said she wanted to call Brook and apologize for a lot of things, and wish her well. And I told her, "Okay, you do that," as I smiled behind her.

You see (as Brook made it abundantly clear to her, in what became a two-hour-plus phone call) Brook has a massive crush on Sky. I can't say I didn't see that coming, because she'd been dropping hints in emails to us, and Brook and I had been sending a few texts (approved, I should stress, by Sky) where she had sort of hinted at that.

I had been trying to tell Sky this, but she was so convinced she was unlovable and unattractive that it wasn't coming through. Well, Brook brought out the clue bat last night, and I think Sky got the message. They had a wonderful (I assume-- I left them alone to it and all I could hear from the other side of the house was giggling) woman-to-woman chat. When it was over, Sky was a rather changed woman.

So the last twelve hours have seen a lot of conversation between us. I think secretly this is what Sky wanted. In the past, she'd hinted that she could see joining a triad/quad, "If it were with the right people."

"So are Brook and Hunter the right people?" I asked.

"Maybe."

Before, she was unhappy about what was going on between Brook and me. Now she thinks she is crushing on both of us and she's... well, I leave it up to your imagination on how she's feeling. She's already told Brook that she wants the four of us to meet up again... and that she wants to meet up with Brook alone to go shopping (like you do). Kind of a 180.

So, have we made the transition from swinging to a poly relationship? Not yet. But it's getting closer, I think.
 
Possibly... I think the important thing about polyamory is that there is a full spectrum of options for each relationship, and that the people involved need to figure out what works best for them.

Problems occur when people can't agree and try to force relationships to be something that don't work for everyone involved, like Sky does not want a sexual relationship with Hunter. It's not fair to expect her to, but it shouldn't be a matter of either she has to have sex with Hunter, or all of you have to retreat to monogamy.

It's hard to have four people all click together as a quad, but there are plenty of ways for four people to work well as part of a poly network. Maybe Sky and Brook could end up having a relationship, just them. Or maybe Brook could date you and Sky, and Hunter will meet someone else who is more sexually compatible with him, and all five of you could hang out and play boardgames, but have separate sexy times.

Each relationship between two individuals is its own unique blend of friendship, sex and romance. Poly relationships are still relationships between two individuals, who are also in relationships with other individuals, and those relationships will interact and play off each other. But it's still a collection of unique individual relationships, not some kind of hive mind where everyone falls in love with everyone else at the same time and in the same way.
 
Well, this is turning into something that I'm having trouble handling, even though I'm not trying to handle it alone.

Sky and Brook met up and spent a nice friendly day together in public, with a lot of teasing affection. I think they've rather fallen for each other. Last night, Sky talked to Brook and Hunter for over an hour. Brook and I have agreed to talk tomorrow. The four of us are meeting up for a friendly get-together on Friday.

So, what's wrong? Oh, it just feels like every move is fraught with worry! Just last night, Brook was in tears because she was worried about something that might hurt me. Sky was too nervous to let me talk. Brook and Hunter were worried that we might not like their lifestyle. And I was worried about all four of us.

I know it's time for all of us to calm down, to take things slower. But it's not an easy thing to do in any circumstance, let alone when the attractions between Brook and Sky and me is so... there. Brook wants us to dial back, and not mention the "p-word" (polyamory) or our mutual crushes in front of Hunter, who's not ready. Sky wants me to keep my hands off Brook, which I can (just) do. I WANT to be friends with Brook and Hunter, because I truly like them as people. But I enjoy Brook in another way, as well. I do want to hold her and talk about everything and nothing for hours. She wants that, as well. I know she does. But now is not the right time.

So now, the limbo. Beautiful and scary at the same time.
 
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Looking at what I wrote, I meant to say, "Sky wants me to keep my hands off Brook when Hunter is around," just to clarify. She is okay with us being physically affectionate as long as she knows about it, as am I with her.
 
I'm a bit confused by the title of this thread. Which ones are the "three monos" and which one is the "one poly"? I think I might have missed an episode or something. It seems that there should be more than "one poly" if you have a "quad" situation.
 
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