Communication Differences

[UpsideDown]

So, DH and I both process things early, thoroughly and and quickly as is prudent to do so. When a family member became disabled and no one else could/would take them in, we did our research on the legal hurdles, power of attorney, medicaid, and in-home care and took up the responsibility. We researched our kids' special needs and chose what we thought were the best therapies. We read industry and consumer reports, evaluations, and user reviews...and then we buy vehicles. We're not impulsive, but we do not waste time meandering and tend to focus on things one at a time until they are completed.

CG is more...shall we say, a free spirit. This makes her a lot of fun as she is generally up for adventure, not very encumbered by structure, and very easily excitable. However, it also makes her a little flighty, and in our friendship that has just mean that I make plans and she sorta follows along. She also takes forever to get back to me on things, which, again, isn't a huge deal when it comes to work/friendship.

However in the perhaps-dating-kinda space, I have a few issues.
1) I'm unsure exactly what she feels. She's said that this is something she may/does want to explore at some point, but I'm not really sure what that means, and she takes weeks to get back to questions on the topic.
2) I'm clueless when it comes to dating. I've never been the one to take the first step before, and am doing a lot of holding my breath. She's said she's alright with me hold her hand and cuddling with her, and she's let me kiss her a total of three times, but she doesn't initiate those things and doesn't make it particularly easy for me to do so.

I'm feeling a bit...tolerated is probably a better word than patronized I suppose, but like a child with a crush on their babysitter. She won't tell me no, but she won't tell me yes, and she won't really give me any information, either. Without it, I tend to fall back on how we function in our friendship...trying to initiate events and things to do, and asking (really shyly) to hold her hand in the car. Other than that, though, I feel at a loss.

Other than just taking a LOT of deep breaths and waiting (which is what I'm doing most of the time now, and trying to improve my skills in), what can I or should I do?

*note, I'm not looking to date widely, I'm only really looking to have a relationship with her, so if the input could be tailored to this relationship, that would be helpful.

 

[GalaGirl]

Could ask her for her willingness to explore this and you would like the feedback by ___(end of week? end of month?___) if possible.

And if not able to give feedback by then, you would like to take it as a "no, not at this time."

No pressure, no harm, no foul.

Just.... info where you stand please. So you can take the info on board. Otherwise you have to move on without her -- and that could mean letting this go as a potential romance and keep it in the friend bucket.

Galagirl

 

[UpsideDown]

Could ask her for her willingness to explore this and you would like the feedback by ___(end of week? end of month?___) if possible.

We did that. That's where I got the "this is something I'd like to do, but I can't now" for reasons involving her primary partner. That is fine, I'm not in any rush to jump off some big romantic cliff. However, as I am still trying to understand the underpinnings of how such a relationship would function, I needed to know answers to basic questions like whether or not she's actually attracted to me...and more complex ones like how do I continue to involve myself in her world without being a pest (especially when that wasn't an issue before).

We're finding that one of us is feeling hurt and ignored, without the other knowing about it, and that many of our assumptions about simple things seem more off than they did before we opened up this can o' worms.

Otherwise you have to move on without her -- and that could mean letting this go as a potential romance and keep it in the friend bucket.

It's a possibility. Even if this does happen, it won't happen for a while, so I don't want to kill it before it is out of its infancy, especially as I deeply value both the friendship and the possibilities that this relationship could involve. That, coupled with the fact that this is the only relationship of this kind that I can foresee even possibly happening, and I'm loathe to let it go too easily.

 

[GalaGirl]

So you got your answer. She can't now.

That means "no."

1) I'm unsure exactly what she feels. She's said that this is something she may/does want to explore at some point, but I'm not really sure what that means, and she takes weeks to get back to questions on the topic.

If someone said that to me? I would tell them

"To me that means you may want to explore it at some point but not any time right now or maybe not with me. So... it sounds like a soft NO. So I am going to take it as "no" and let the romance go and keep it as friends. If things change, you can let me know. We'll see what we see then. Is that the ballpark we're at here?"


To get the verify right then.

Because I think I'm hearing a soft no. I think you notice it too with feeling like "a kid with a babysitter crush" and feeling like she "tolerates you."

Disappointing, since you like her so much, that she's not as into you.

But you could take it as a "nope, not happening at this time" and choose to move on rather than choosing endless suffering. You could choose to "un-suffer." You could choose to end it firmly with one last verify on it so that you know for sure, and so that YOUR health and well being can move out of this zone you don't seem to enjoy and into the Healing Space. Maybe something like...

"So... I've tried to get responses a few times and I don't want to be a pest. You seem lukewarm. I'm going to take it as a "No, no romance at this time. Keep it as friends. Am I right?"

Take bull by horns and get your final answer and then let it go if it is indeed a "No."

Galagirl

 

[UpsideDown]

So you got your answer. She can't now.

That means "no." [/QUOTE}

I guess. I knew when I brought it up that my timing wasn't optimal, and that she was having issues with primary BF. We've been friends for a long time, and I know she takes a long time to work through things, so I'm not upset or even troubled that it is a process. She'd known DH and I were monogamous, and so hadn't allowed herself to think of me in any such light, and she's working to suss out her stuff with me at the same time as her relationship-building with BF.

If someone said that to me? I would tell them :"To me that means you may want to explore it at some point but not any time right now or maybe not with me. So... it sounds like a soft NO. So I am going to take it as "no" and let the romance go and keep it as friends. If things change, you can let me know. We'll see what we see then. Is that the ballpark we're at here?"

Right, I've asked small questions, because she doesn't believe that big questions have yes or no answers. At first I kissed her, and asked her if she could understand how I felt. She said yes. Then I asked her if she could talk to me about it. Again, she said yes. I asked her if I should just take some distance to heal from what was obviously a one-sided and unrequited thing, and she told me she'd prefer I didn't.

When I asked if this was a thing that was happening or not, she balked, telling me it was too big of a question and involved too many factors (my newness, her unawareness of the situation, logistics and practicalities, among others). I asked if I could kiss her. She said yes, and volunteered that for the time being, I was welcome to hold her hand and cuddle with her on the couch (both things that set my heart a whirl, nearly 30 or no).

So, I'm not being ignored. I'm just unsure if anyone else takes weeks to process simple bits of information...and how they'd prefer to be notified that the radio silence is the hardest pert for the people with whom they are involved. I sent her an email on the 27th. Yesterday I found out that she has read it (I'm actually shocked) and that she's already crafting a response to it...but only because I freaked out on her. Had she told me when she'd read it, and then when she was starting the response, I'd feel more in the loop and probably wouldn't feel the need to freak out.

::sigh:: 15 years of only having deep discussions with one person has allowed my "on-your-toes" communication style to atrophy.

But I'm hearing a soft no. I think you notice it too with feeling like a kid with a babysitter crush and feeling like she "tolerates you." Disappointing, since you like her so much.

I am fearing a soft no. But, as this has only become a functional conversation in the last few weeks (part of which she's been out of state), I'm not sure that is what is going on. Fears are not reality, necessarily, correct?

But you could take it as a "nope, not happening at this time" and move on rather than choosing endless suffering in limbo.

Move on to what, exactly? I retreat, hurt, and feeling rejected. She feels hurt that I cut off her communication style. DH and I got back to our quiet life that doesn't involve other folk or these interesting boards. Don't get me wrong, there's some appeal to the return to monogamy. I'm just not sure I won't sit and spin about how this chance is dead and I'm the one that killed it.

I'm truly not trying to be frustrating here, I'm just trying to figure out if anyone else has to deal with a flighty and unfocused communication style.

 

[GalaGirl]

I mean all this kindly -- I do see that you are suffering and this is very hard and frustrating for you.

But could accept that you can only change your own behaviors and see if that helps or not. SPECIFY. Then whatever the answer is ACCEPT IT.

I know she takes a long time to work through things, so I'm not upset or even troubled that it is a process.

Yesterday I found out that she has read it (I'm actually shocked) and that she's already crafting a response to it...but only because I freaked out on her. Had she told me when she'd read it, and then when she was starting the response, I'd feel more in the loop and probably wouldn't feel the need to freak out.

You ARE upset that it takes her "a long time" to process. You are feeling stressy, anxious, and frustrated.

(I do not know what "a long time" is. That is not specific. A week? A month? A year?)

When you sent her the thing, did you include a line of "I know things take time to digest. But could you please at least let me know you got it? Then I can feel less anxious about it because at least I know you got it. Thanks." Does not seem so if you are shocked she read it. Does not seem like you take steps to minimize your own anxieties and meet some of your own needs by being proactive.

Right now I'm not perceiving her as flighty or not communicative. She's been answering you -- you just don't seem to like what you hear. She saw you upset and is trying to deliver now so you will get some sort of letter/email thing soon. I perceive her as not feeling as "urgent" about it as you until she saw you upset. She still may not feel urgent about it, but she's willing to meet your need to be free of upset. Hence stepping it up on the letter. She doesn't sound unkind.

But why do you have to hit the freak out level in the first place? Do YOU communicate your urgency to her? Your need to be free of anxiety/stressy? And your desire to have that need met by her being willing to give you a check in so you are "in the loop" in her processing? You don't get to find out if she's willing to check in with you until you ASK HER if she is willing.

Since you do not seem to specify a TIME frame when you ask her these things like

"Are you willing to tell me an update at the end of the week? Even if not final answer yet, could you please let me know you've been working on it like a check in? Are you willing to do that to alleviate my anxiety a bit?"​

that means YOU are not looking out for your own need to be free of freak outs/stress/anxiety. You also do not specifically tell her HOW you want this need met by her -- with a check in at the end of the week.

You seem like you are leaving it up to her to interpret a lot then -- expecting her to mind reader.

So could consider changing how you communicate to her about your wants, needs and limits to see if they are better met -- your WANT to be in the loop to alleviate your NEED to be free of anxiety. And please don't leave you hanging forever, you function better with a time LIMT. You suggest a week. She can tweak and suggest 10 days. You could come to compromise on that time frame jiggle.

But you get something more solid so you can move to feeling less anxious because YOU got the compromise ball rolling. She can't divine from the sky there needs to be a talk about that if she doesn't know you have a need to be free of anxious in the first place!

Because you put across this "take your time, whenever is ok" vibe YOU are leading her to believe "whenever you get there is ok" is ok.

If open ended really isn't ok for you, SAY SO. Then she's not surprised when you are upset from waiting on response because YOU are not giving her full information. When you feel hurt and rejected it is because what? She doesn't mind reader you? That's not a realistic expectation of a partner.

That is separate from feeling disappointed that she may not return your crush feelings. If this is so, that cannot be helped. Cannot force someone to crush back.

You set yourself up for the "communication disappointment" part by not being as clear as you could be in your own communication. I'm not trying to be mean or criticize -- I'm trying to help you see it from my balcony. Another perspective on this. I think you could be better served if you think about articulating to her more clearly what your wants, needs, and limits are.

Could fear of it being a "soft no" in the end be stopping you from giving clear communication to her? All of it?

Could you consider trying giving her the full "Who, what, when, where, how, and why?"

• Who = her.
  
• What = tell me how you feel about pursuing a romance with me and let me know your own wants, needs, and limits.
  
• When = by the end of the week some kind of check in even if no final answer yet. I understand time to process, and don't want to rush you, but please don't leave me in the dark. At least check in of "I'm working on it" so I don't feel anxious and forgotten about.
  
• Where and How = Willing to be flexible on this since you are out of town -- email, phone, skype face time, in person face time. For me it's more then WHEN -- I really want a check in please.
  
• Why = So my need to be free of/lessen my stress/anxiety is met by you keeping me updated in your process so I know I'm not forgotten. And I know where things are at as you process. Would you be willing to check in with me in a week?

Move on to what, exactly? I retreat, hurt, and feeling rejected. She feels hurt that I cut off her communication style.

Move on to being friends only and stop romantic behaviors toward her like kissing and cuddles. Stop thinking about her like a crush. Keep it in the friend zone, to allow it to return to friend zone in feeling over time. Feelings ensue after behavior/thoughts. So change the behaves and the thoughts to allow the feelings to change anew and catch up to the new reality.

I do not know what “cut off her communication style means.” Could elaborate.

Don't get me wrong, there's some appeal to the return to monogamy. I'm just not sure I won't sit and spin about how this chance is dead and I'm the one that killed it.

You did not kill it if it isn't a runner. It's just not a runner if it isn't a runner. You can't force someone to have romantic feelings for you.

Again, I really do mean all this kindly -- I hope I don't sound like I'm coming down hard on you. I do see that you hurt and it is hard.

In the end, her feelings and her behaviors are hers. You cannot control other people's feelings or other people's behaviors. You can only deal with you.

Remember to BREATHE, and hang in there.

hugs,
Galagirl

 

[LoveBunny]

Your situation and mine are remarkably similar. After 14 yrs of married monogamy, a woman turned my world upside down and my poor husband has had to adjust. Like your woman, she is very flighty, flaky, and she loathes any notion of any expectation or responsibility placed on her. Of course, I utterly adore her, while she would be just fine if I just wanted to be friends.

Whenever she starts to feel stressed by life, she shuts down emotionally and just stops communicating/engaging, and I don't understand, and freak out hardcore. I have difficulty communicating with her in the best of times because she is intellectual, while I am emotional. It's like Bambi trying to date Spock.

She and I have been together over 4 months now, and unlike you, we do have a sexual/romantic relationship, but right now we're "on a break" after a very rough month. We're trying to figure out if we can just be friends, or if I can readjust my expectations to accomadate her inability to be in as intense a relationship as I desire.

I've found that when I need to talk to her, best to find a way to do so very calmly and kindly and she needs me to be in physical contact when I do it (hold her hand, rub her knee.) If I need to tell her she is doing something that causes me pain, I cannot accuse or she shuts down. I say it once, then back away and let her process. I try to remind myself that the very traits about her that drive me to drink--flighty, unemotional, doesn't need anyone, etc., are things that in another light I love about her. It makes her independent, smart, fun to be around, and when she's focused she's a force of nature.

Not sure if that helps at all, but I'm glad your post is here because it sure helps me!

 

[UpsideDown]

Whew. Alright.

I mean all this kindly -- I do see that you are suffering and this is very hard and frustrating for you.

I believe you. You are generally kind, if straight forwards. I appreciate that.

But could accept that you can only change your own behaviors and see if that helps or not. SPECIFY. Then whatever the answer is ACCEPT IT.

It is the specificity that bothers her. If I say, "can you get that email in to me in the next week," she feels imposed upon. This is not only with the whole romance-thing...that is just a general tendency of hers.

You ARE upset that it takes her "a long time" to process.[/COLOR] You are feeling stressy, anxious, and frustrated.

(I do not know what "a long time" is. That is not specific. A week? A month? A year?)

I am upset that she does not respond to specific inquiries, not that this may or may not be DOA. I freaked out that she had been gone on vacation, then home for nearly a week (with both work plans and other deadlines looming) and didn't contact me (and refused to pin down when I could contact her) until the day that registration and paperwork were due. When I pressed she felt she'd be hurting my feelings. When I told her all I needed was to know when we could get our joint work in, she said she felt pushed to make decisions (which weren't even about the romance, but about our totally fun and functional friend and working relationship). Finally, I dropped her presents off at her house, told her roommate I needed them out from under my tree so I could take down my tree (something we had planned on doing together but that I need to do before she gets back from her newest vacation) and left. Later, I texted her BF and asked if I could come pick up some of my stuff that I needed, and she and I ended up going out for drinks to discuss how she communicates vs how I do. It's *really* more about the communication than about the romance.

Right now I'm not perceiving her as flighty or not communicative. She's been answering you -- you just don't seem to like what you hear.

As long as what I hear is "I don't know, I'll get back to you at an unspecified time that may have nothing to do with functional deadlines"...then all I want is straightforward truth.

She saw you upset and is trying to deliver now so you will get some sort of letter/email thing soon. I perceive her as not feeling as "urgent" about it as you until she saw you upset. She still may not feel urgent about it, but she's willing to meet your need to be free of upset. Hence stepping it up on the letter. She doesn't sound unkind.

She isn't unkind. Just unaware that some people process in a linear fashion and need to plan their lives. She admits to as much.

But why do you have to freak out in the first place? Do YOU communicate your urgency to her? Your need to be free of anxiety/stressy? And your desire to have that need met by her being willing to give you a check in so you are "in the loop" in her processing? You don't get to find out if she's willing until you ASK HER.

Yes, I have asked for that. She doesn't seem to get how, exactly, to do a check-in, and I tend to freak out when our school reg deadlines, that require payment done online in another state (rife with possibilities for problems) looms and she hasn't given it a second thought...despite it being something that means a lot to her, professionally and I, professionally and personally. She lives by the tyranny of the urgent.

That means YOU are not looking out for your own need to be free of freak outs/stress/anxiety.

I have. It just doesn't seem to be in a way that allows her to feel un-cornered. That's what I am trying to suss out here.

When you sent her the thing, did you include a line of " I know things take time to digest. But could you please at least let me know you got it? Then I can feel less anxious about it because at least I know you got it. Thanks."

This is what we've agreed upon from now on, as well as a "when you start crafting your response, can you let me know that as well? It will allow me to feel like the process is moving, even if I cannot see the wheels."

You seem like you are leaving it up to her to interpret a lot then -- to divine from the sky.

Perhaps. I've asked these things aloud, but I think I need to attach them to her emails, because she won't remember.

So could consider changing how you communicate to her about your wants, needs and limits to see if they are better met -- your WANT to be in the loop to alleviate your NEED to be free of anxiety. And please don't leave you hanging forever, you function better with a time limit - you suggest a week. She can tweak and suggest 10 days. You could come to compromise on that.

I'm generally avoiding "when" questions. As long as she can tell me that she's working on it, I'm fine, truly.

YOU are leading her to believe "whenever you get there is ok" is ok.

If it really isn't for you, SAY SO. Then she's not surprised when you are upset from waiting on response because YOU are not giving her full information. When you feel hurt and rejected it is because what? She doesn't mind reader you? That's not a realistic expectation of a partner.

I don't care if the response takes 3 weeks. I do care if she never tells me she's even thought of it.

That is separate from feeling disappointed that she may not return your crush feelings. If this is so, that cannot be helped. Cannot force someone to crush back.

Aware.

Could fear of it being a "soft no" in the end be stopping you from giving clear communication to her? All of it?

I've only ever expected a no, GalaGirl. She knows that. I don't fear a no, I just don't want to be the one that puts it in the ground.

Move on to being friends only and stop romantic behaviors toward her like kissing and cuddles. Stop thinking about her like a crush. Keep it in the friend zone, to allow it to return to friend zone in feeling over time. Feelings ensue after behavior/thoughts. So change the behaves and the thoughts to allow the feelings to change anew and catch up to the new reality.

This will be difficult, as I see her every day and she is my closest friend. I had asked about her preferences for how I took the space I needed to do that, when I told her I was all crushy, and she asked me not to do it yet, until she could think about if she felt the same. Can do this, and will if she tells me no. Not sure I can do it if I have "but what if" hanging over my head.

I do not know what “cut off her communication style means.” Could elaborate.

"Cut off BY her communication style." Radio silence and time in her head make me nuts.

 

[sparklepop]

Hi

I thought I would chime in, if that's ok, as I find this thread very interesting.

You know, I feel that I've been on both sides of the coin. My preferred type of woman is older and mostly heterosexual. I just can't get enough of them. Hahaha. This means that I have experienced many 'what ifs', many intense crushes, many day dreams, many 'GOD why won't they just tell me how they feel?!", many weeks and weeks of analysing every little touch or glance they throw my way. I don't know whether your CG is mostly straight, or not, but either way, I can relate to your feelings and the heady yet frustrating effects of a not-quite-requited crush.

On the other hand, I can very much relate to CG.

My girlfriend teases me about having 'flitting feet'. I hate... hate... hate... being tied down. I can't stand being put on a schedule. I can't stand feeling that someone is (essentially) nagging me to give them something. As soon as I feel pressure from someone, my heart and mind goes into an immediate recoil. I often wish it didn't - I'd love to maintain an attraction towards someone. But, it just doesn't seem to work like that for me. I'm most attracted to people who let me chase. Those who do not say "when can we next talk?", but instead say "I loved this chat we had."

My girlfriend is even worse than I am. This anecdote might help you. My GF is currently dating her version of the Holy Grail of secondaries. She has had her most serious crush yet on him, for the past year. They finally got it together in November. Yet, despite the fact that she has wanted this particular guy so much, for so long, she's starting to recoil, because he wants structure. She is even more flexible and fluid than I am. She's finally agreed to talk to him 2-3 times per week online or on the phone; but doing that is severely putting her off.

My thoughts are that CG might be like my girlfriend and I. If you're forcing structure on her, no matter how small, she's likely to be recoiling big time. She probably doesn't want to say a flat-out no. She wants to keep her options open. But, it sounds like she has some avoidance going on, too. You must listen to her signals. Yes, she's told you not to completely put a stop to it. But she also didn't contact you for a week after being away. That tells you something, right there. It means that she doesn't know what she wants!

The thing that strikes me is that you might find things easier if you understand one thing - structure most likely freaks CG out as much as not having any freaks you out. You feel panicky and lost and stuck, right? I bet that she's feeling the same way.

Too often, we think we are compromising, but what we are actually trying to do is change someone. You're saying that you don't need a time frame, as such; you just need an answer either way. I definitely can't blame you for that. But if she's just not capable of that, it means you're incompatible. You are only capable of being so fluid - she is only capable of being so coherent, communicative, or structured.

It sounds to me, from the outside, that she is attracted to you, but that's all she knows. It sounds like she doesn't want anything else, just now. It sounds like she also needs space.

Here is what I would do, if I were you.

I would stop asking her if you can kiss her. Things like that *are* going to make you feel like a school child who has a crush on their teacher. Let her come to you. Let her chase you a bit. If she's like me, she'll want to do some of the chasing. If she's not like me, you're not losing anything by stopping because it looks like nothing else is going to happen right now anyway. All she's done so far is respond to your questions. Let her have space, let her take control, if she wants to do something.

If it were me, I'd take it down to a lighthearted place. I would not make any more moves. She knows you're interested. It's very obvious that this is very clear to her. If you stop, she won't forget that you are interested. Seriously, if it were me, I would focus on being friends and enjoy your crush - be thankful that she is in your life and enjoy the butterflies. Crushes don't have to be torturous. Emotion is good. I genuinely have a gut feeling that the only way you can move things forward is by backing off.

 

[UpsideDown]

Thank you so much for this perspective. It is good to see that, in some cases I'm doing the right thing, and where I need to do better.

I don't know whether your CG is mostly straight, or not, but either way, I can relate to your feelings and the heady yet frustrating effects of a not-quite-requited crush.

She is, in practice, but not in belief (the best way I can explain it).

She probably doesn't want to say a flat-out no. She wants to keep her options open. But, it sounds like she has some avoidance going on, too. You must listen to her signals. Yes, she's told you not to completely put a stop to it. But she also didn't contact you for a week after being away. That tells you something, right there. It means that she doesn't know what she wants!

I think this is mostly frustrating because structure in our long friendship hasn't set of her need to recoil, but this seems to be triggering all kinds of new responses...even when it isn't *about* the crushy stuff.

The thing that strikes me is that you might find things easier if you understand one thing - structure most likely freaks CG out as much as not having any freaks you out. You feel panicky and lost and stuck, right? I bet that she's feeling the same way.

This is a good way to look at it. Do you think a "no structure when it comes to the romance/ish stuff but for work and our just hanging out we could schedule some things so I know when I'll be seeing you?" would be a compromise that would work?

I would stop asking her if you can kiss her. Things like that *are* going to make you feel like a school child who has a crush on their teacher. Let her come to you. Let her chase you a bit. If she's like me, she'll want to do some of the chasing. If she's not like me, you're not losing anything by stopping because it looks like nothing else is going to happen right now anyway. All she's done so far is respond to your questions. Let her have space, let her take control, if she wants to do something.

That is what I have done. She has said that she's alright with asking general questions (about poly, about how her relationships are structured, etc) and with me talking to primary BF. She also offered to attend one or two of the 6 sessions of the 6 week poly workshop I signed up for. That is more than enough for me on the "curshy" end of things, for now.

If it were me, I'd take it down to a lighthearted place. I would not make any more moves. She knows you're interested. It's very obvious that this is very clear to her. If you stop, she won't forget that you are interested. Seriously, if it were me, I would focus on being friends and enjoy your crush - be thankful that she is in your life and enjoy the butterflies. Crushes don't have to be torturous. Emotion is good. I genuinely have a gut feeling that the only way you can move things forward is by backing off.

Right. And, if the romance thing ever becomes truly torturous, I can call and end to it. I know that, and so does she. It's just...I'm feeling a little surprised that this seems to have had more of a confusing impact on my friendship with the poly person than on my marriage to to monogamous one.

 

[GalaGirl]

It is the specificity that bothers her. If I say, "can you get that email in to me in the next week," she feels imposed upon. This is not only with the whole romance-thing...that is just a general tendency of hers.

She could feel whatever she feels and you could let her have the time space to feel it in.

If this is a general tendency of hers and you know it already? It comes back to you on accepting.

• You could ACCEPT that you won't get responsiveness here in a romantic thing with her. And you learn to be ok with that and be prepared to deal in this sort of thing often then in polyship.
  
• Or you could ACCEPT that you are not cool with that, and let the desire to have a romantic thing with her GO.

Talking about relationship structures with her seems premature if she's not even sure she wants to be in romantic relationship with you. Don't make her be your poly everything. Crush person, info person, etc. It could be overwhelming.

This part I do not understand:

I don't fear a no, I just don't want to be the one that puts it in the ground.

How are you the one to put it in the ground?

People are compatible romantic partners or they not compatible romantic partners.

Not anyone's fault if their preferences and willingness-es do not happen to line up. That's why it is called DATING. The search for the compatible people. If it becomes not a runner for you, you say so. If it becomes not a runner for her, she says so. Don't overthink it.

If it turns out not to be a runner, it doesn't much matter which one acknowledges that it isn't. It just isn't. People can feel whatever it is they feel about that but it doesn't change the fact that it is not a runner.

This will be difficult, as I see her every day and she is my closest friend. I had asked about her preferences for how I took the space I needed to do that, when I told her I was all crushy, and she asked me not to do it yet, until she could think about if she felt the same. Can do this, and will if she tells me no. Not sure I can do it if I have "but what if" hanging over my head.

That baffles me a bit too. You don't need her permission to tend to your own needs if this turns out to not be a runner for whatever reason regardless of who acknowledges it first. Yes, it won't be fun to feel like "party time whee!" But you can handle it and you will be ok. I have faith in you. You can get through this. Don't what if it up in your head. Try to keep it real and think facts:

"She's crafting a response, I will get it, I will digest it and then I will make the next choice for myself."

She made an agreement with you to keep you updated --let's hope she follows through.

"Cut off BY her communication style." Radio silence and time in her head make me nuts.

Ah. Sorry about that. I missed the "BY" in there.

It makes me nuts too. That's why it's a point in my playbook. I want the right to responsiveness in romantic relationships. Don't plan to give me that right? Don't date me then. Keep it as casual friends.

She's writing a response to you right? Could wait til her written response, digest. Then if the letter is basically still more fence sitting or soft no-ing, could decide to cut it loose in favor of yourself -- and your long term well being.

You will be ok however it turns out. Remember to BREATHE.

I know this isn't fun to feel. Just do your best and remember to look out for you.

GG

 

[sparklepop]

You are very welcome for the response

I'm glad it helped in your thinking a little.

Let's see...

Ahh... that's important. She's mostly straight in practice, but not in belief. You know, I came out as a lesbian when I was 13. I remember brief, young thoughts of "why is this happening to me? why me?"... then shooting straight to acceptance. I think I had it easy. My girlfriend, on the other hand, has only just accepted her bisexuality at the age of 38, after two years with me. I thinks it is much more difficult for some people than we may realise. This could be (might not be, but could) a very big part of CG's hesitance and struggle.

I think this is mostly frustrating because structure in our long friendship hasn't set of her need to recoil, but this seems to be triggering all kinds of new responses...even when it isn't *about* the crushy stuff.

So, it's spilling over, basically? She's showing signs of recoiling, even when it's not about the 'crush bubble'. That's an important indicator that she needs space. When someone pushes me and I start to feel that I don't know what I want, I bury my head in the sand and avoid that *person* - not just the talk about our connection. Even friendly hangouts and chats with that person feel stressful to me. The more they ask, the further away I want to get. As I said before, it's not nice behaviour and I wish I could change it - but it seems to be something inside me. I could absolutely be projecting - but CG seems to be acting the exact way that I do when I'm trying to say "please give me space".

This is a good way to look at it. Do you think a "no structure when it comes to the romance/ish stuff but for work and our just hanging out we could schedule some things so I know when I'll be seeing you?" would be a compromise that would work?

To be honest? I don't think it would. For me, structure is structure. I hate any kind of structure. I love making plans with friends, but end up feeling resistant when the actual time comes around. I hate 9-5 work; I like to work at 2am, 6am, 12pm, whenever the mood strikes. My best friend is exactly like me - we don't text each other for weeks, we cancel plans to meet up 90% of the time, we are flaky with each other constantly; yet we love each other to death and are closer to each other than we are with any other friend. Why, when we can't commit to each other, do we consider each other a 'best' friend? Simply, because we are similar. We get each other. We work well. My ex-secondary needed structure. She needed to know when we would next meet, when we would next talk. We talked about it and she tried to make the same compromise that you are (sweetly) trying to make. She told me that she'd be ok with the sexual/romantic feelings to just happen; but she needed structure on the friendship part. I tried to give it to her. But it just didn't work. The more she pushed, the more I withdrew; the more I withdrew, the more she pushed. It destroyed our friendship, because she was hurt by me and I was completely put off her. Two opposites can be great for each other - you can give her structure, she can give you flexibility. But, sadly, more often than not, this kind of personality difference gets in the way. You shouldn't have to be less structured - it makes you feel uncomfortable. She shouldn't have to be more structured - it makes her feel uncomfortable.

That is what I have done. She has said that she's alright with asking general questions (about poly, about how her relationships are structured, etc) and with me talking to primary BF. She also offered to attend one or two of the 6 sessions of the 6 week poly workshop I signed up for. That is more than enough for me on the "curshy" end of things, for now.

That sounds good

It's just...I'm feeling a little surprised that this seems to have had more of a confusing impact on my friendship with the poly person than on my marriage to to monogamous one.

I can understand this and why you are surprised about it. Logic would say that it would cause more trouble between you and your main partner. I believe there are four things that can make or break a friendship - sexual involvement, living together, working together and money. One of my dearest friends is the polar opposite to me. She mocks my flakiness and I mock her military-level need to plan. I don't feel *as* close to her as I do my best friend, but for a close friendship, it works. We are SO opposite that, in a friendship realm, it's an entertaining difference. If she became my romantic partner? We'd drive each other nuts. If we lived together? We'd probably never speak again. If we worked together? Actually, we have, and it didn't work out well!

In my opinion, if you mix sex, money, cohabitation or work with a close friend and it goes wrong, it *does* affect the friendship. It's not working smoothly between you romantically, so that *is* affecting your friendship. It's because you're seeing sides of each other that aren't working outside of a friendship box. Does that make sense?

I'm not saying that *you* should change, or behave differently. But... if this helps... there is one tried and tested technique I know of when dealing with people non-committal, flaky, independent, unstructured people. The technique is simple. Let go. For her to give you what you want (structure) she has to *do* something. For you to give her want she wants (no structure), you have to *not* do something. That is the only difference. I'm not saying that it's easier for you to *stop* doing something than it is for her to *start* - but it could be an option. If you are capable (and it's totally understandable if you aren't) of giving her complete space, on friendship too, and asking nothing at all, you may very well discover that she starts actually giving you more structure. This works for me, at least, with others. If you pin a butterfly down, what will they be thinking about? Flying away. If you let it fly around, what will they be thinking of? Coming back.

It might be that if you test that technique out for a little while, it will work wonders. It might be that your personalities will only work in a friendship. Either way, I do think you'll be able to (at the very least) stub out some of the problems by accepting her personality and hoping that she accepts yours.

 

[Katrpillar]

Hi there,

I am someone who takes a long time to process changes in my emotional life so I thought I would reply. You may even say I think in paisley too (or fractals ;-)

I need a lot of alone calm time to feel balanced and not overloaded. I keep learning new skills which helps. But it doesn't change my fundamental desire and tendency to take a slow time with difficult/interesting/new life changes. If CG is like me she may be simmering on a lot of emotional stuff at once including the changes in your friendship.

Since your friendship is a potentially happy new thing that hasn't taken solid shape yet it may be lower in urgency for her compared to her current marriage concerns as previously mentioned by you (I think) and other secondary relationships ending. Perhaps she is just ruminating on your newly expressed interest for a while. This it what I would understand her comments to you to mean. She may also feel strong caution to move slowly with you rather than damage your friendship (and marriage) as you potentially alter/open your marriage for the first time while exploring your new feelings in a way that hasn't been okay or possible before. That would/could take me a long time to consider.

When something big is going on in my emotional life it is very difficult for me to process anything else that also takes a lot of mental bandwidth to consider. With all of the challenges going on for her currently (not to mention the holidays and school stuff on top of it) perhaps she is overwhelmed with having to maintain everything. Perhaps she is currently emotionally saturated and needs some dead air not to process and to just be while she gets rebalanced.

She may be interested in developing your shared relationship further but not be able to process any big changes to it now in her current emotional place. She may also feel afraid of losing your friendship if you decide to emotionally withdraw from her for a while if she says no to you, or if you get hurt somehow, or if she can't fulfill your possibly shifting needs and expectations of her beyond what your friendship already defined.

Right NOW it could be that what she may really need is a good friend (albeit could be flirty friendship may be perfect) as she heals up her marriage. Her actions of breaking off with her secondary relationships makes me think this. Plus, I think you have mentioned that her DH was not too happy for GC to be considering a new relationship with you at this time.This could be part of her hesitancy to move forward. Adding more people to a relationship dynamic that is not in a good place can be problematic. While you and your DH sound good CG and her DH don't.

Is it possible CG just has a lot going on in her life currently but doesn't want to lose you as a friend or possible crush?

I hope my own inward internal thoughts/ideas help Please dismiss what doesn't fit.

Katrpillar

 

[UpsideDown]

If this is a general tendency of hers and you know it already? It comes back to you on accepting.

* You could ACCEPT that you won't get responsiveness here in a romantic thing with her. And you learn to be ok with that and be prepared to deal in this sort of thing often then in polyship.
* Or you could ACCEPT that you are not cool with that, and let the desire to have a romantic thing with her GO.

Fair enough. I've said already, that what surprised me was that this minor thing became a huge issue for her in a non-crushy part of our relationship.

This part I do not understand:
"I don't fear a no, I just don't want to be the one that puts it in the ground."

How are you the one to put it in the ground?
People are compatible romantic partners or they not compatible romantic partners.

Hmm. I feel that if I'm the one to say no, I'll be regretful and always wonder if I did the right thing. This will bother me, long term, and more than this current confusion and frustration are bothering me at present. I'd wonder if I just didn't give enough space, or didn't stick around long enough. Right now it is my prefernce that she choose whether this takes off (now or in a few months).

That's why it is called DATING. The search for the compatible people.

That is, indeed, what dating is. I am not searching for compatible people. I am interested in how this plays out with her...no more or less.

That baffles me a bit too. You don't need her permission to tend to your own needs if this turns out to not be a runner for whatever reason regardless of who pulls the plug on it. Yes, it won't be fun to feel like "party time whee!" But you can handle it and you will be ok.

I am not generally a person who takes my discomforts, and deems them overriding needs. If I do need to put this to rest for my own sanity, at some point, I will.

It makes me nuts too. That's why it's a point in my playbook (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/member.php?u=49794). I want the right to responsiveness in romantic relationships. Don't plan to give me that right? Don't date me then. Keep it as casual friends.

As I do not date, I do not have a playbook. This learning-as-you-go thing is hard, and no doubt contributing to some of the stress.

She's writing a response to you right? Could wait til her written response, digest. Then if the letter is basically still more fence sitting or soft no-ing, could decide to cut it loose in favor of yourself -- and your long term well being.

She is, and I will do what I can with whatever she writes.