Group Relationship vs. Interconnected Couples

I have kind of a big-picture, philosophical question.

I keep coming across posts and articles in which people describe a triad or a quad or whatever as consisting of "3 unique partnerships" or "6 unique partnerships" or whatnot, depending on the number of people in the polycule. Oftentimes this is phrased as a correction to a person who described a poly-fi relationship as being a single relationship consisting of 3 or 4 people instead of as a network of interrelated couples.

Is there no room for this "single relationship" definition? I guess I don't understand why a relationship has to focus on the individual relationships between people instead of the communal relationship with everyone.

I mean, I understand that this is what some people enjoy -- getting one-on-one time with each partner and spending individual time together. But I can also see a happy situation in which all three (or 4 people) are pretty much an interconnected unit and spend their romantic time all together instead of as individual partnerships. Basically the same as a monogamous couple -- you of course have individual friends, work, interests, but romantic time involves everyone in the relationship.

Am I crazy? Is the reason that people dismiss this idea that they have tried it and it doesn't work? Or just that we are wired to think of relationships as being dyads?
 
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Is there no room for this "single relationship" definition? I guess I don't understand why a relationship has to focus on the individual relationships between people instead of the communal relationship with everyone.

To me, this idea of a group relationship, or Borg Association, is a misunderstanding of what it is trying to describe. As far as I can tell, this explanation of "it is one big relationship, not individual relationships" is really saying "the individual relationships are great, and we have a healthy group dynamic".

I don't see that real intimacy is possible with a group of people. I follow the explanation of intimacy that it is a give and take exchange of vulnerability and support. Even if I am building intimacy with several people at the same time, the intimacy is with each individual person, not a human mash-up of several people squished together.

This "people sandwich" concept is one of the things that gets these group relationships (triads, quads, etc) in trouble.
 
This "people sandwich" concept is one of the things that gets these group relationships (triads, quads, etc) in trouble.

Can you tell me more? What kind of trouble?
 
Can you tell me more? What kind of trouble?

When we look at relationships as dyadic entities we are in a better position to remember that each association is unique and should be treated accordingly. When we look at individual relationships as if they were all one relationship we can lose the reality that each relationship has its own issues, strengths, and challenges. This can cause conflict over "tit-for-tat" assumptions or "why does he get this when I get that?", jealousy when one person just wants to spend time with another person or "why aren't you inviting the whole Borg?", etc.

Individuals have relationships, groups have dynamics. At least that's my take.
 
Unless you are under the age of 9 months, you know that each person in the world is a unique individual. A baby thinks its mother is part of itself, but figures out before turning 1 year old that its mother is a separate person.

From then on, we go on to form relationships with individuals. However, an ancient myth is that when a man and a woman marry, two become one.

We can get really philosophical and Eastern and acid trippy and discuss how We are All One, one with each other and the universe, but that is another conversation.

All our relationships are one on one. That being said, it might be more FUN to be with 2 of your besties at the same time, because the characteristics of one balance out the characteristics of the other. Say, my sister and our bff, whom we have known since grade school. I love them as individuals, and have fun chatting online with each one, or seeing them one at a time when we can, but when we all get together, the dynamic is the best. Sister is more introverted, but smarter and more compassionate. Bff is more outgoing and sexy, but can be kind of slap dash, and not as intellectual.

Is that what you are looking for? A fun group dynamic? Fine. But you need to be on good terms with each individual. You're not going to have much fun if there is a weak link between any 2 people. And you need one on one sometimes to all thrive. Children need one on one time with a parent or a teacher too, to thrive, even if being part of a group of siblings or class is OK most of the time.

So if friends and children need one on one time, it stands to reason lovers do too.

And that is just one aspect of dealing with triads or quads or "poly families."
 
Hi MsEmotional,

It isn't necessarily either/or, either "the group dynamic" or "individual dyads." It can be both, dyads and the overall group. And there may be groups that never pair off, that always do things all together. I don't have a problem with that if it works for them.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Ask yourself this: Can you imagine a point where you would be talking to either Ponytail or Glasses and not know who you are talking to? Hopefully of course not. That is because you have different interactions with each one. That wouldn't change if you are living as one big happy family. That is why people warn to be mindful of each dyad, as well as the trio. The chances of reaching "Borg Perfection" is nil because we are humans.
 
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I think having all people always connected equally the way you describe may happen for a while, especially with the benefit of NRE, but I suspect what eventually happens is that a little bit of un-evenness in the loves, chores or responsibilities, or maybe just changing personalities over time, leads to individual dynamics playing out more. Imagine a family with 3 kids. Yes there's a 3-way group play or group relationship, but 2 of them might go play with toy soldiers or some other hobby. I dunno if that's an appropriate analogy. Just guessing here.
 
Well.....

I have been married for 16 years. Always been bi, had a couple FF relationships before marriage. When I met my hubby I was honest about it all. I was not fake and did not hide anything. I suppressed my bi feelings
(I realize this now) .

Currently, Hubby, myself, 3 daughters, a gf who lives with us and her daughter often is our relationship. YOU define it.
Gf and I sleep together every night. Unless her daughter stays, then she sleeps
in 'her' room with her. My hubby works graves. So he comes
home to me, gf & 2 1/2 yr old in bed (usually naked) what a dream?
There have been a few 'moments' but with open communication and the genuine love for each 3 of us and having developed and built a solid relationship we realize to 'not sweat the small shit'. We are all living in a beautiful home filled with loads of love.
 
Is the reason that people dismiss this idea that they have tried it and it doesn't work?
You seem to be misinterpreting what's actually going on when the subject arises. (There's also some dubious either/or propositions, but those for later.)

There's nothing "wrong" with doing it as you outline. Problems appear when people present this Great New Idea :rolleyes: as the way things SHOULD go.

IMNSHO, when thus presented, it's mere cheap Romanticism, & a vestige of failed Monogamism.

I've often seen the same thing when a vee or quad first forms, & they get all starry-eyed about having everyone in one big bed & only ever having sex as a group -- "because that's the way it SHOULD be!!"

I've had more than my share of happy "moresomes," but having the Group Snuggles thing enforced... on a NIGHTLY BASIS... strikes me as (at best) an outer circle of Hell. :(

Generally, I don't particularly like the lovers of my lovers -- not that I despise them, but there's no basis for any sort of friendship (& I'm generally overbooked with people that I would WANT to know better). We're usually cordial, maybe even enjoy chatting at a party... but not buddies.

As Marcus so aptly drew it, while there's nothing WRONG with trying to establish a Borg Collective, there's no sane basis for making it a Should Be or Ought To Be.

I was in a happy vee for a couple of years. Our friends often expressed surprise at how we seemed to be psychically linked :D & could so easily operate as a team.

Yet we worked different shifts, & our social circles overlapped but were NOT identical. There was no sort of cultish closed borders.

When we were together in twos & threes, we learned to overcommunicate, almost free-associating as we chattered away, generally talking over each other yet also listening (& sometimes even jotting down notes so we didn't forget to address something that leapt up as potentially significant). It's a level of intimacy that few people have ever had reason to explore, & would likely shy away from given the opportunity (or even dire necessity). Some of our conversations ended in tears AND laughter as we cleaned out old fears. And with that feeling of total trust at all levels, it could be quite sexual -- heck, we once all got incredibly aroused by planning out the garden. :cool:

However, it's NOT something you can merely decide to do & then it's magically so (like "I decided to become poly"). It takes emotional risk, actual demonstration of trust, constant boldness, unflinching introspection.

(An exercise: dig through your head, & find the most humiliatingly stupid thing you've ever done. Then tell your partners about it, in great detail. Let them ask probing questions.)

In those years, we had a few people who wanted to join our household. If we thought it possible, we'd get together for dinner & conversation. We treated them as we did each other, though backed off a few notches (as we did when one of us was ill or distracted). They had a fun evening, & never brought it up again -- the maelstrom is NOT for everyone.
 
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OP, I think you are missing the point of what all those articles are telling you: that it's IMPOSSIBLE to have a healthy group dynamic unless each individual one-on-one relationship within the group is nurtured and healthy on its own.

It's okay to want a poly structure that emphasizes a group dynamic, i.e., interacting as a triad. But to get there, you need to make sure that each individual relationship within the triad (person A + B, A + C, and B + C) is working on its own. Triads often fail if the people in them forget that it is composed of THREE individual relationships, not ONE. (And also three individual people with each their own separate needs, etc).

Many poly people DO NOT want a group dynamic at all with their relationships. (I'm with Marcus in thinking that sounds like a Borg collective to me). But wanting a big poly family group is perfectly valid. You would just need to go into it understanding that it's composed of many individuals and individual relationships.

Some people who do "group dynamic" poly might think of a triad as, say, 4 relationships: A + B, A + C, B + C, and then the fourth relationship is the group dynamic of A + B + C. That seems reasonable.
 
OP, I think you are missing the point of what all those articles are telling you: that it's IMPOSSIBLE to have a healthy group dynamic unless each individual one-on-one relationship within the group is nurtured and healthy on its own.

Excellent point and this is true of any family. Each relationship needn't be cuddly & harmonious, but each relationship must be genuine and recognized in order for the group to be healthy. The basic rules of family dynamics apply to poly, as well. Any time that you see individuals subsumed by the group or the collective or the polycule Borg, you've got a lot of resentment brewing under the surface - and the system can only tamp this down for so long before people either act out or leave the Borg.
 
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I guess I don't understand why a relationship has to focus on the individual relationships between people instead of the communal relationship with everyone.


In 1979 Margaret Clark and Judson Mills in their paper claimed that many relationships can be defined by how they treat the giving and taking of benefits. They proposed two types of relationships: exchange relationships and communal relationships.

The paper : Interpersonal attraction in exchange and communal relationships.

In an exchange relationship, there is the expectation of balance in giving and taking. Each person assumes that when one person gives a benefit, he or she should then expect to receive a comparable benefit from the other person. It’s a clear case of “If I scratch your back, you’ll scratch mine.” If I pay for coffee today, you should pay for coffee tomorrow. This kind of relationship involves keeping track of each person’s contributions and making sure everything is even. These are types of relationships that business partners, acquaintances, and strangers have with each other.

Communal relationships, on the other hand, are less concerned with perfect balance between partners. Instead, people in these relationships give benefits non-contingently. That is, they don’t necessarily expect to be paid back. They give simply because they’re looking out for the other person’s needs. Sure, you might hope that your partner in a communal relationship will also look out for your needs, but you’re not keeping a spreadsheet of each person’s contributions. These are the types of relationships that families, friends, spouses, and romantic partners tend to have.

Interestingly, though, in communal relationships, when one person quickly repays a favor, the other person is less happy about it. In communal relationships, it’s actually unpleasant when the other person tries to make things perfectly equal because it misses the point of a communal relationship. In fact, Bram Buunk and Nico Yperen claimed in their paper the more people tend to treat their relationships as exchange relationships, the less satisfied they are in marriages.

The paper : Referential Comparisons, Relational Comparisons, and Exchange Orientation: Their Relation to Marital Satisfaction

Because they end up treating what’s supposed to be a communal relationship like an exchange relationship, which undermines the behaviors that make a marriage successful (being responsive to each other’s needs).

Although it’s true that some types of relationships (coworkers) are more likely to be exchange relationships and others (married couples) are more likely to be communal ones, some people are also just more likely to be communal, regardless of the specific relationship. These are people who usually take people’s feelings into account and go out of their way to help other people. People with such a “communal orientation” are more likely to help people, to express emotion in a relationship, to treat others fairly, and to give other people credit for success.

Strong communal oriented people will be required to form a poly-fi relationship as being a single relationship consisting of 3 or 4 people instead of as a network of interrelated couples.

It is very difficult to find a group of people who are that much strong communal oriented to form one single relationship.


But I can also see a happy situation in which all three (or 4 people) are pretty much an interconnected unit and spend their romantic time all together instead of as individual partnerships.


I grew up in a family similar to that. The family consists of seven married couples and two divorced women. Three women were bisexual. They were also nudists. To outsiders they were relatives. Outsiders knew some cousins sharing a residence and sources of incomes. But they weren’t relative. Since it was a conservative land no one knew the truth. The family had twenty two children. We children knew the truth but we never cared about our parents’ relationship. To us they were all parents. But we knew it very well not to talk about it with anyone.

The adults were mostly farmers. They also had few cattle, chicken and fish farm. They also transported their goods to market. Too much work but everyone helped each other. We weren’t rich but we were happy. One of my uncles once needed a surgery. The hospital was one day drive from our home. He also needed two attendants for twenty four attendances. Entire cost was very high. It was one of the medical treatments where a family usually went bankrupt. But we were able to manage it by helping each other and cutting corners here and there together. We lived like one single family.

We didn’t have electricity then. We had to finish our chores, field works and studies before sunset. Kerosene was expensive. We only lit a light when it was absolutely needed. In most evenings, we would entertain ourselves by us. We would recite poems, sing, dance, act etc. Once in a while we would rent an electric generator, TV and VCR (remember that device?) to watch a movie together. Sometime we would go together to the nearest town which was an hour drive. We looked like an army convoy! We also talked to each other… a lot. We knew what was going on in each other’s lives.

Our parents were romantically involved with each other. They kissed each other in the presence of the children. But they never had sex or argument in the presence of children. But we knew sex was part of their relationship.

Although we call other women aunt they were all mother to us. Most children were breast fed by more than one woman. The family had some strict rules. For example, we had to leave our beds before sunrise. Family rules were enforced by all the parents. They treated all children as if their own biological children.

It is difficult to explain but it worked and still working for them. Their mindsets, circumstances and necessity helped them. To my parents our poly relationships are weird. To them we are merely dating. We only share good times but not the tough time. Our parents are still together. They still watch TV together. :)
 
I really enjoy learning your background experience! :) Particularly, the idea that polyamory is kinda weak & pale compared to your family's cohesiveness. This also points up that (around here) we often commit the error of slapping a POLY label on everyone who remotely fits one definition or another, even if they have no interest in "joining our club."

Aside from that, there's one pointthat stood out for me --
In communal relationships, it’s actually unpleasant when the other person tries to make things perfectly equal because it misses the point of a communal relationship. ... they end up treating what’s supposed to be a communal relationship like an exchange relationship, which undermines the behaviors that make a marriage successful (being responsive to each other’s needs).
It's a great rephrasing of something that's bothered me most of my life: we've grown up in a culture that has generally poisoned the practice of gift.

I enjoy picking up little trinkets, simply because one happens to remind me of a particular person. I was briefly involved with a woman who, upon receiving some little tchotchke, would feel pressured to go out & "match" me somehow, almost always within 24 hours. I stopped doing it. We weren't together long (if at all).

For a birthday or Yule, if I spot something truly ideal, I might go a bit overboard. My brother's a great scratch cook, & I didn't think it appropriate for him to be using cheap cutlery, so I got him a proper Wusthof 10" chef & a decent blade guard. And bless him, he did nothing to "repay" me -- well, aside from samples of stuff like a perfect prosciutto he'd brined & cured himself :eek:.

I see offering myself to another person as gifting, NOT a "give to get" transaction. I don't take a woman to dinner in order to get laid; if it was up to me, I'd rather have sex FIRST, then have a nice relaxing evening with no pressure on anyone. :D I can't feel comfortable if there's a noticeable amount of underlying exchange motivation.
 
Alba, it sounds like you were brought up on a hippie commune that actually worked! That is inspiring as well as interesting.
 
I really enjoy learning your background experience! :) Particularly, the idea that polyamory is kinda weak & pale compared to your family's cohesiveness. This also points up that (around here) we often commit the error of slapping a POLY label on everyone who remotely fits one definition or another, even if they have no interest in "joining our club."


Yes, my background is different than the most. It was a tough life but a simpler one.

Weak & pale ? May be today people like to live like that. Recently I'm having discussions with my parents about polyamory. They told me they cared about their relationship above all. They made sacrifices to adjust and readjust. Because in the end they wanted to stay together. Today I see the younger generation value their profession the most. They relocate, they let go relationship to be successful in professional careers. I guess people are much more materialist these days.

Well, everyone has his or her own definition of POLY. Whatever makes them happy as long as they aren't harming other.


Aside from that, there's one pointthat stood out for me --

It's a great rephrasing of something that's bothered me most of my life: we've grown up in a culture that has generally poisoned the practice of gift.


I agree. If you could what would you change?


That was beautiful. Thank you for sharing.


Indeed, it was a beautiful life. :) I miss those days.


Alba, it sounds like you were brought up on a hippie commune that actually worked! That is inspiring as well as interesting.

I had to search "hippie commune" in Google. :) This is what I've found...

Society’s Dropouts: 31 Eye-Opening Photos Of America’s 1970s Hippie Communes

That was interesting. I've heard of hippie but I've never imagined both groups have similarities. I've to talk to my parents about it.

I think my parents were dropouts. Unlike hippie they weren't into drugs. They did make alcohol from date molasses. They were also very clean. They also built wooden house (bigger than lodge), barns, poultry, dug ponds, jetty etc. Those are still there in working condition.

My parents went to a big city from different parts of the country to get work. They met each other there and slowly they became friends. Their relationships also begun there. My parents couldn't meet the end. If there were a rainy day they couldn't find work. People were coming to the cities from rural areas for work. Cities were overwhelmed. So government came up with a scheme. Lands would be given to grow crops to people who were willing to relocate. They could pay the price after ten years without any interest. They were also offered low interest loan. Most people who took the offer couldn't succeed. The lands were given in different parts of the country and those were located in very remote areas. When my parents started their "commune" that area didn't even have muddy/dirt road. They used boat to transport their goods. They didn't give up. Well they didn't have any other choice. Now that area is developed. School, clinic, paved roads, cable channels, shops etc.

At present my parents are richer than most people in that area. I guess they can be considered elite in that area! :)
 
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