Guru falls

[vinsanity0]

There are some red-ish flags.
Consistently choosing women decades younger.
The money thing. (Which is not so much about the money, rather imbalance in the give and take of the relationship.)
His exes and common friends cutting contact.

So yeah, probably not the most healthy person to date. I do believe her.

Still, I must wonder a little bit. If a person has had multiple relationships, and you gather the exes, won't you be able to point out unhealthy patterns ... for pretty much anyone?

My exes fall into two distinct camps. Some are still friends, some think I'm an asshole. The ones who think I'm an asshole usually leave out their part in the breakup. Because of this I usually take anyone's version with a grain of salt. Sometimes two people are incompatible and there is nothing more to it than that. Not knowing any of these people, I can't make any real judgement.

 

[FallenAngelina]

That’s victim blaming and it’s not ok.

I suppose that much depends on whether one views these women as victims. I understand SeasonedPoly to be saying that he could only have manipulated to the extent that a partner (or intended partner) had murky boundaries. The writings do not explore the women's willingness and participation in what developed between them and Franklin. As I mentioned before, the author may call herself a journalist, but the writings are not journalism - they are reports of personal experience.

 

[Calum]

The statement isn't investigative journalism. If you read the whole statement, it says what it is, and why it was shared.

I'm one of those who put their name on it. I've seen the statements of all six women mentioned in the statement, and I believe them. Our role is primarily to support those six women and to enable their voices to be heard. We've also made space for any other survivors to share their stories if they want to do that. That process will happen at the pace those survivors choose.

The statement was posted because a call-in letter was sent to Franklin Veaux, offering him the opportunity to engage with a transformative justice process. He declined the call-in letter via a public post on Quora, so the statement was released.

It contains a genuine public offer for him to engage with accountability - and since it was posted, he's deleted the Quora post and posted publically on Facebook saying that he wishes to engage.
https://www.facebook.com/franklinveaux/posts/2451865108160282

At this point, the survivor support group feel the right thing to do is give him some time to do that. So, we're waiting...

 

[Louisa]

Well!

I’m the journalist you’re quoting . I’m not sure what you think is self serving here. Is it the days I’ve spent listening and transcribing interviews? The triggering effect on my own trauma? Having to admit that I have also recommended FV’s work to multiple communities? That my own work is going to be slated because I’m attacking my own publisher? I mean, yes, in a way you’re right. Having been in an abusive relationship myself, I am willing to endure all of this to prevent it happening again.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

If the stories of these women contrast with your own experiences of Franklin, we invite you to consider that no one who is abusive is abusive to everyone, or even all the time to those people they abuse; no one who has not lived with Franklin can know what it is like to live with him; and no one who has not ended a relationship with him can know how he behaves at the end of a relationship.

This essentially says that only ex nesting partners can offer an alternative perspective on Franklin/the situation and even if you are one of those, he probably just didn't do it to you (often enough for you to view it as abusive).

I completely understand that victims will want to come forward in their own time, if at all, but I can't help thinking that it would have been better to wait for that to happen and address Franklin privately to work with the group as you have done. I think until people hear actual statements about how this abuse manifested, it seems a bit like a witch hunt.

At this point, you have a journalist who claims that six women have given a story about someone being abusive. The journalist is friends with an ex of the accused(?) and set about finding other ex partners to see if they had similar accounts. That's seemingly where the other five came from. The Eve account is being linked as one of those accounts or at least, a supporting account but seems to be a warning to future partners that they'll have similar boundaries or limitations which lead to not only incompatibility, but a nasty break up.

Again, nobody is obliged to share anything, but I think expecting people to act on 2nd hand accounts where the word "journalist" is introduced into the situation has and will continue to prompt questions.

 

[Calum]

I completely understand that victims will want to come forward in their own time, if at all, but I can't help thinking that it would have been better to wait for that to happen and address Franklin privately to work with the group as you have done. I think until people hear actual statements about how this abuse manifested, it seems a bit like a witch hunt.

To be clear, this was our preference. We sent a call-in letter offering to let him engage with us privately. He rejected that publically. At that point, our priority is to protect the women from further harm, and narrative control has been one of those harms. Publishing the statement was a response to his rejection.

He has subsequantly chosen to engage. This is a good thing. So we're waiting to see what happens with that.

At this point, you have a journalist who claims that six women have given a story about someone being abusive.

You have fourteen people who signed the statement, all of whom have seen enough information to believe the women.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

To be clear, this was our preference. We sent a call-in letter offering to let him engage with us privately. He rejected that publically. At that point, our priority is to protect the women from further harm, and narrative control has been one of those harms. Publishing the statement was a response to his rejection.

He has subsequantly chosen to engage. This is a good thing. So we're waiting to see what happens with that.



You have fourteen people who signed the statement, all of whom have seen enough information to believe the women.

See here you've said that the process was
1) private letter
2) his public rejection
3) statement

But on the statement it says:

Therefore, as a final gesture of goodwill, we have sent Franklin a call-in letter naming the harm done, asking that he initiate his own accountability process, and outlining what accountability would look like to the survivors. He has indicated via a public Quora post that he declines, but we stand ready to liaise with his accountability team should he change his mind.

Which to me suggests that they all happened at the same time. I'd be completely clear by saying we sent private letter on THIS DATE, and he responded publicly on THIS DATE, and to control the narrative as he did say that the accuser was abusive herself, we are releasing this.

I could say if those 14 people are even real. That's what you have to figure in to the situation - most people have heard of FV because of the books and maybe Eve, but all the others you're asking people to believe are vouching for accounts we haven't even be privy to. It just seems premature and ultimately, I think these things will skewer people's judgement of the situation. Which would be a real shame for any victims.

 

[Tinwen]

Louisa, Calum: Thanks for engaging with the forum. I'll watch the story.

 

[opalescent]

The reactions by some folks here and elsewhere are why people who have been abused, especially by someone well known in some way, don’t come forward.

I am thoroughly tired of this. How about we just believe people unless something further comes out that invites disbelief.

 

[chelseydoeslove]

Survivor Team member weigh-in

I am posting as another person who is on the survivor team, another signatory, and another woman who has been subjected to abuse in the context of non-monogamy. I believe the accounts of the women we are advocating for, and I believe all women who say they have been taken advantage of in a system that is set up to do just that: subordinate and use them.

Seasonedpolyagain, your commentary is rife with victim-blaming, unsolicited advice to a group of people who spent months working on this, who know what they are doing, as well as blatant misogyny. The readiness with which you sympathize with Franklin Veaux and dismiss the testimonies of several women, and many more who have vouched for them, as well as others, is indicative of your unchecked bias.

In terms of our work as investigative journalism, I would sooner classify our work as advocacy or activism, as this is an extremely politicized issue. I say this as a critique, not an entire indictment of the movement itself, as I consider myself critically non-monogamous: men having means with which to exploit women is amplified in polyamory and other non-monogamous movements. It takes the dyad out of its black box, where women suffer majorly and consistently, but this perpetuates the exploitation of women's emotional labour instead of diffusing it. It is baked into the bedrock of the discourse. Women are punished for being insecure in a world that capitalizes on maintaining their insecurity, and the social punishment they experience in the polyamory movement is not softened by our progress, just transmuted. The results are the same.

- Chelsey

 

[MeeraReed]

The initial statement seemed strangely vague to me--it seemed to be missing the actual victim statements. But now that I understand the comments better, I see that those statements appear to be forthcoming. Okay.

The premise of "The Game Changer" seems to be "How to Break All Your Poly Agreements and Leave Your Current Partner(s) for a Shiny New Partner While Claiming It's All Part of Advanced Poly Theory (TM)."

I look forward to hearing more from the survivors.

Eve's essay describes behavior almost identical to the emotionally abusive man I dated in college. He claimed to be wise and experienced in the ways of non-monogamous relationships. He was 28, I was 21. He claimed to have some crazy, controlling exes...I didn't want to become one, did I? That's an interesting pattern for emotional abuse specific to polyamory.

FallenAngelina--you can't claim it's not victim-blaming by claiming the women aren't victims. That's not how this works.

Of course people with good boundaries don't tolerate abuse. That's why abusers deliberately choose younger women who haven't figured out their boundaries yet.

And I'm sure Eve has spent plenty of time contemplating her own role in what happened. She sounds like a smart woman.

Louisa, Callum--don't let the negative comments get you down. You're doing important work.

 

[Calum]

I could say if those 14 people are even real. That's what you have to figure in to the situation - most people have heard of FV because of the books and maybe Eve, but all the others you're asking people to believe are vouching for accounts we haven't even be privy to.

Of the 14 people: if you've read Franklin's books - you'll find some of them in the forewords, you'll find others quite well known in their own poly communities... But I'm not sure much I can say will convince you, right right.

We will, however, fairly soon, release bios of the support group, and probably a timeline of events. We'll do that when the time is right, because our priority is the survivors.

I think if you read what's actually asked for in the statements, it's not a huge ask for the community. Make some space for the women to tell their stories - Franklin's had a long time to tell his, and even written a book about his relationships. Question narratives you hear, particularly if voices of women are missing...

As an example - since you've clearly read Franklin's books - did you ever ask yourself how the women in the stories he told would tell those same stories? Those voices are missing. So many women's voices are missing.

Are you really so hostile to the idea that we make some space and let them tell their stories? Can we not make a space for them that's safe to do that in?


As we said in the statement:
"Our own priority, however, is not Franklin. Our priority is the women harmed, their experiences, their safety and healing, and the restoration of their voices — and on the effects on our communities of the harm done, as well as the effects of the beliefs and behaviors that enabled that harm."

We will continue to do that, to work for that, and to engage with our communities to strive to make them safer spaces.

 

[ImaginaryIllusion]

MOD note

Given that this is a fairly charged subject and emotions may be running high, I will remind everyone to pay attention to the guidelines and remain civil with each other in your discussions on this topic.

For those who have just arrived, I will offer a preliminary heads up that this forum is intended for discussion, and as such contrary opinions to your own may be expressed and are permitted. Attempts to shutdown or control conversations will not go the way you want. By publishing the letter openly, it has opened the topic for public discussion, and that may include unsolicited advice and examination of all sides.

For those who have been around the block, please be mindful that newcomers aren't always accustomed to the tough love approach, nor is it always the tool for every discussion! (Hammer, nail, you know)

That is all.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

I am posting as another person who is on the survivor team, another signatory, and another woman who has been subjected to abuse in the context of non-monogamy. I believe the accounts of the women we are advocating for, and I believe all women who say they have been taken advantage of in a system that is set up to do just that: subordinate and use them.

Seasonedpolyagain, your commentary is rife with victim-blaming, unsolicited advice to a group of people who spent months working on this, who know what they are doing, as well as blatant misogyny. The readiness with which you sympathize with Franklin Veaux and dismiss the testimonies of several women, and many more who have vouched for them, as well as others, is indicative of your unchecked bias.

In terms of our work as investigative journalism, I would sooner classify our work as advocacy or activism, as this is an extremely politicized issue. I say this as a critique, not an entire indictment of the movement itself, as I consider myself critically non-monogamous: men having means with which to exploit women is amplified in polyamory and other non-monogamous movements. It takes the dyad out of its black box, where women suffer majorly and consistently, but this perpetuates the exploitation of women's emotional labour instead of diffusing it. It is baked into the bedrock of the discourse. Women are punished for being insecure in a world that capitalizes on maintaining their insecurity, and the social punishment they experience in the polyamory movement is not softened by our progress, just transmuted. The results are the same.

- Chelsey

I don't understand this "subjected to abuse in non-monogamy", are you saying FV abused you, or are you pointing out that unfortunately like most women of all orientations and relationship structures, you have been in an abusive relationship? The former perhaps makes you one of the people who can give an account of what life was like as a partner of FV, the latter doesn't make the accusations of targeted abuse true.

We will, however, fairly soon, release bios of the support group, and probably a timeline of events. We'll do that when the time is right, because our priority is the survivors.

I think if you read what's actually asked for in the statements, it's not a huge ask for the community. Make some space for the women to tell their stories - Franklin's had a long time to tell his, and even written a book about his relationships. Question narratives you hear, particularly if voices of women are missing...

Absolutely your priority should be the survivors of abuse - and if said survivors are not ready to be public about the abuse, then someone else doing so just seems... odd. You're talking as if the whole poly community worldwide (since that's where you took it) were actively stopping these women from sharing their stories. Most of us in the world didn't even know here women exist, let alone that they had these stories, so at any point they could have come out either individually or together and said "this is what happened to me/us".

Instead, we hear no story from the people concerned but hear from a 3rd party who says that we must believe what we might hear in the future and if we don't hear it, know it's true anyway. It's just a strange way of approaching this that ultimately taints who very well could be victims. The prematurity and ill consideration leads to me to believe that other motivations were at play. It was pay back rather than paying something forward.

Now I'm not saying that everyone would automatically believe them - I'm not naive about how difficult it is for any abuse survivor to come forward and be believed - but for me, their accounts would give far more weight than the "light and dark" piece which is more like "editor's opinions" than "investigative report". The approach gives what could well be abuse an air of "drama" and that ultimately will effect how the survivors are viewed by the public.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

The reactions by some folks here and elsewhere are why people who have been abused, especially by someone well known in some way, don’t come forward.

I am thoroughly tired of this. How about we just believe people unless something further comes out that invites disbelief.

If you want to be pedantic about that, we should already believe through FV''s earlier accounts that these women are abusive. Perhaps we should view this as them trying to further their abuse as FV originally suggested.

My point is not that the stories are not believable. For one, I haven't heard any stories from survivors. My point is that the involvement and approach of others involved is casting shade on the survivors.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

As an example - since you've clearly read Franklin's books - did you ever ask yourself how the women in the stories he told would tell those same stories? Those voices are missing. So many women's voices are missing.

I've never read a single poly book. I've read some pages from More Than Two website. So no, my *only* exposure to abuse claims in FV's relationships has been through what the support group has released. I know very little to nothing about the guy. If some people had come forward and said he killed their kittens, I'd have no reason not to doubt them. If a journalist came forward and said that they know he kills kittens because they've heard other people say it and even though I might never hear it myself, I should believe it, I'd be more doubtful. And you guys have done the latter.

 

[FallenAngelina]

The reactions by some folks here and elsewhere are why people who have been abused, especially by someone well known in some way, don’t come forward.

I am thoroughly tired of this. How about we just believe people unless something further comes out that invites disbelief.

I'll go on record right now as having been systematically sexually molested, beginning at age 10. It would be easy to dismiss my comments as callous and ignorant but sadly, they are borne of vast experience.

My comments in this and every thread on this forum having nothing whatsoever to do with believing or not believing whether abuse takes place, they are always about taking responsibility for one's own experience in life. To whittle this down to "Believe Them" vs. "Don't Believe Them" does a grave disservice to all involved and to the complexity of how abuse goes on. Let's take this opportunity to move beyond simplistic side taking and look more deeply at how all of us participate in our lives.

 

[chelseydoeslove]

I don't understand this "subjected to abuse in non-monogamy", are you saying FV abused you, or are you pointing out that unfortunately like most women of all orientations and relationship structures, you have been in an abusive relationship? The former perhaps makes you one of the people who can give an account of what life was like as a partner of FV, the latter doesn't make the accusations of targeted abuse true.

I am saying that I am one of many women who has experienced abuse in the context of non-monogamy. It would be inappropriate for me to be a member of the survivor support team as a survivor of Franklin Veaux's abusive behaviour myself. Our job is to protect, while centring them. I would not be able to do that well were I amongst the women who have experienced harm by him.

I never claimed to lend truth to the accusations with my own status as a survivor, but to place myself in a social location that legitimizes my perspective and the work I am doing: I have experience. I can hear the accounts of the survivors and empathize, as well as believe. I found it very easy to believe the accusations, as I have experienced such things, myself, with others.

It would probably serve you to consider why your positions seem to indicate resistance to believing the testimonies are valid.

 

[vinsanity0]

It would probably serve you to consider why your positions seem to indicate resistance to believing the testimonies are valid.

I think she's made it clear that it's because she has not been provided with any testimony.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

I am saying that I am one of many women who has experienced abuse in the context of non-monogamy. It would be inappropriate for me to be a member of the survivor support team as a survivor of Franklin Veaux's abusive behaviour myself. Our job is to protect, while centring them. I would not be able to do that well were I amongst the women who have experienced harm by him.

I never claimed to lend truth to the accusations with my own status as a survivor, but to place myself in a social location that legitimizes my perspective and the work I am doing: I have experience. I can hear the accounts of the survivors and empathize, as well as believe. I found it very easy to believe the accusations, as I have experienced such things, myself, with others.

It would probably serve you to consider why your positions seem to indicate resistance to believing the testimonies are valid.

Let me be perfectly clear here. Most women have experienced an abusive relationship. Most women. So your experience with abuse puts you in no better position than most women I could randomly recruit from a mall when it comes to "placing yourself in a social location that legitimizes their perspective". Unfortunately, you just need to identify as a woman for you to greatly increase your chances of experiencing abuse. I know this because I am one (most of the time).

Experiencing an abusive relationship doesn't make you some magic arbiter of truth. The fact that I had a partner who used to anally rape me if I annoyed them doesn't mean I'm more able to look at a page of text and decide whether it is fact or fiction. Even if I know the people involved. This reasoning you give doesn't make any sense. It's these things that create suspicion in my view. Vinsanity is right in that I haven't seen any testimonials from victims. Any doubt I have about the victims comes from the fact that these other people (like you) are so insistent in taking a front line.

Again I will say the support group should have stood behind the victims and allowed their voices to be heard first.

And no, a jealous rant by an ex warning a new partner that she will also have the same unmet needs as said ex is not a "victims testimony" of abuse.

My advice so you don't further compromise the integrity of the victim's statements - especially if any one of them wanted to make this a legal case - is that you guys back off with your statements of support. You're not inspiring the trust and belief that you think are with your presence. In fact, I've now read elsewhere that this is a witch hunt where rejected women and scorned women try and take down the guy who didn't want them. Do I believe that? No. But I can see why that narrative has risen.