Having trouble with definitions

[A2Poly]

I'm having a hard time with the lines between casual, FWB and poly.

The couple that I am/may-be/may-not-be involved with have had a 'situationally open' relationship, and I've been her best friend for almost 30 years, so have known him for a long time too.

While I was visiting their home he and I were intimate. With her knowledge, consent, and (at the time) encouragement. And it lead to discussions of poly - something I hadn't considered or even thought existed beyond swinging or cheating (I've done enough reading now to know better, and now understand the differences between those).

So we have come to defining boundaries.

So she was the one who before I got there gave him permission (if not 'permission'... I don't know how to phrase it... I think it might have been her idea to start with), and then she spent the rest of the visit asking if I was falling in love with him, and saying if we were falling in love she'd consider poly. But she now talks a lot about how at the time she was just offering something casual: "Hey what did you so on vacation?" "I had sex", "oh, that must have been fun... moving on" and that supporting any kind of poly relationship just isn't anything she's up for right now.

With lots of long emails, and hours-long phone calls and a ton of messaging (between me and him, and me and her) she has come out with the fact that she thinks that if he and I are "good friends" that feels best. But the conversation around that implied the possibility of future sex, which he also implied would be of interest to him - and is of interest to me. And yes, I know, I'm worrying about her a lot. But she has a lot of power in this dynamic. And that has always been true in my relationship with her, and I think in their marriage too. Now we've added this third dimension to it, that hasn't gone away - and likely won't.

So... Definitions.

Casual: I don't think anything that puts a 30 year relationship (her and my friendship) at risk is casual. I can't seem to separate out the sex with her husband from my friendship with him, or from my friendship with her. So I don't understand how she means that word. Any thoughts on why she'd want to use that word to describe this?

Good friends/FWB: I know I need more clarity about what she meant by "good friends", I'm seeing her in person later this month and hope to spend a bit of time sorting that out. But for now, what IS the difference between FWB and poly?

Poly: is this only if he and I are 'romantic'? Where is the line between romance and friendship anyway?

Or is this *thing* that we are doing 'poly by another name'? No matter what she wants to call it?

 

[KC43]

My personal definitions, though others may have their own:

Casual: Sex with little or no emotional connection, and possibly no intention of a repeat

Friends with Benefits: People who are primarily *friends* but have sex because they like each other. The focuses are on the friendship and the sex.

Polyamory: People who *love* each other. While friendship could be considered a form of love, there are difficult-to-express difference between being someone's friend and being in love with them or having romantic feelings toward them. People who are polyamorous might not even have sex at all; if they do, it's because they love each other. The focus is on the love.

 

[bookbug]

Polyamory - the ability to romantically love more than one.

Some people feel a significant difference between romantic love and friendship love. I can't help you there, because I am not sexually attracted to people who I dint first see as friends. It's kind of all on the same spectrum to me, with me finding some of my friends sexually attractive. I have friends that I love and care for deeply who I am not sexually interested in.

However, let me speak to your situation. It's sounds like your friend is not going to be happy if you and her husband fall deeply in love. So she thinks sex and friendship are okay, but romantic love is not. Problem is that when people are having sex, deepening of feelings - falling in love often happens. How you ultimately feel is not going to be within your control. No more than you can make yourself love someone that you don't, can you make yourself not love someone. So it's foolish to say: I'm going to have an intimate relationship with this person, and I can guarantee that I will not fall in love. Neither you nor he can guarantee that.

Given her apparent dominance - and no doubt veto power - I would bow out of the physical relationship with her husband. Very big chance you will get your heart broken.

I have been in that situation. Unfortunately, unlike your friend, my friend continued to encourage it. By the time she pulled the plug, her husband and I had developed very deep feelings for each other. It was the single most painful thing I have experienced thus far. I would have loved to know she wasn't going to be okay with it early on, when I could have backed out.

 

[KC43]

When Hubby and I first opened our marriage, we made an agreement that if we developed deeper feelings than friendship for someone, we would end contact with that person, at least sexual or "alone" contact. (We would probably still see them socially, just not spend one-on-one time with them; everything would return to platonic.)

I actually did that with Guy early on. I recognized that my feelings for him were too deep to meet that agreement, so for a month and a half I spoke to him online or via text message occasionally, and that was it. No verbal conversations, no seeing each other at all. Hubby was made aware of the circumstances and supported me to the point of contacting Guy himself--they were already friends--and asking Guy to please give me some space. This was entirely Hubby's doing; I didn't know he'd done it until afterward.

But after Guy and I reconnected and the feelings built again, I chose to talk to Hubby *before* severing ties entirely. And Hubby told me that it was okay with him if I was in love with Guy.

Fast-forward about 9 months, and I ran into the same problem with S2. S2 and I clicked pretty much immediately, and I don't think we'd even had three dates before I realized there were feelings. I talked to Hubby again and said I was willing to stop seeing S2.

And Hubby again told me it was okay, because through the experience with Guy, Hubby had realized that asking me not to love someone I've developed a connection with is like asking me not to breathe. (I love Best Friend, too, but he and I have always been platonic and it's become closer to a sibling-type love than anything.) And Hubby said he knew that even though I'd only just started seeing S2, it would make me unhappy to stop contact, and he didn't want me to be unhappy.

People feel how they feel. You can't really control what emotions arise. You *can* control your actions and reactions to those emotions, but some actions/reactions are easier to do than others. And some have less of a painful impact than others. You can't control whether you fall in love with your friend's husband, or he with you, but you can look at the possibility of that happening, and at what might happen as a result (e.g. losing the friendship with both of them,), and decide whether it's worth the risk or whether you should bow out now.

 

[A2Poly]

I can't help you there, because I am not sexually attracted to people who I dint first see as friends. It's kind of all on the same spectrum to me, with me finding some of my friends sexually attractive.

Me too. I just don't understand the difference. And to confuse it all I know I *love* him - of course I do, she is like my sister and she loves him... how could I not? But I'm not *in love* with him. But I definitely could see it growing that way now that the seed has been planted.

Given her apparent dominance - and no doubt veto power - I would bow out of the physical relationship with her husband. Very big chance you will get your heart broken.

I have that feeling too... but is the reward worth the risk? IDK. More thinking to do... because:

You can't control whether you fall in love with your friend's husband, or he with you, but you can look at the possibility of that happening, and at what might happen as a result (e.g. losing the friendship with both of them,), and decide whether it's worth the risk or whether you should bow out now.

But of course there is the problem that there is no way to undo what has been done, but now that is kind of "there". And even without the physical intimacy we are becoming deeper... deeper conversations, deeper friends, deeper emotions. There are things that I've shared with him (besides the physical) that I haven't shared with her. And if that is the thing that is threatening her... gaaa.

I foresee a LOT more conversations in our futures. I love her and don't plan on giving the friendship up for anything. So now we just have to see where we go from here. (But I also worry about analysing it to death instead of just living it. There isn't a relationship to discuss if the only thing we do is discuss the relationship, kwim?)

 

[KC43]

There's definitely such a thing as overthinking and overtalking.

On the other hand, *some* talking and honest communication is, in my opinion, not only beneficial but necessary to make a poly situation (or a FWB situation, or even a casual sex situation) work.

Setting out what you're each looking for and hoping to gain from it

Setting out what each of you is and isn't willing to accept

Looking at some of the most obvious "what ifs" (for example, "what if I fall in love with him") and coming up with an answer for them.

Of course the entire relationship doesn't have to be about figuring out the relationship; but in any relationship, it helps to know you're on or at least close to the same page and are aware of potential benefits and pitfalls.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi A2Poly,

I think your friend (the wife of the couple) is thinking of "falling in love" as something you choose to do, rather than something that happens to you. Therefore, she believes you and her husband can choose to "keep it casual" if you want. No falling in love. I think that's why she thinks the "casual" proposition is safe. She doesn't think it puts anything at risk.

Polyamorists don't agree on whether FWB relationships count as a type of polyamory. Some say yes, others say no. Some say it's too casual, others say friendship involves emotional bonding and that suffices to make it serious enough. When your friend says "good friends" and "FWB" I think she sees it as casual and not polyamorous. But that's just my guess.

Polyamory is chiefly set apart by its romantic element. I think of romance as a warm cordial camaraderie combined with physical attraction (where the attraction may or may not mean the actual desire to have sex). Friendship is more based on a platonic exchange of common thoughts and feelings, and if friends have benefits then the benefits are probably an indepenedent agreement that isn't essential to the friendship.

What you're doing with the husband here is "not polyamorous" unless/until you and he fall in love with each other.

So much for definitions. Now, what are the odds that you and he will fall in love with each other? I think the odds are very high. About the only way to avoid it is to stop having sex with him *and* stop talking to him, because your conversations with him are making you feel closer (and closer) to him, and that's gonna add up to falling in love eventually. Which is exactly what your friend (his wife) has instructed you not to do.

So, I think you need to posit this reality to her and find out what consequences she will apply if (I think "when" is the better term) you and her husband fall in love. If she's willing to try to work through whatever her emotional reactions may be, then nurturing your relationship with him may be worth it. But if she warns you that the consequences will be very severe, then you may want to reconsider delving any deeper into this relationship with her husband.

Worst case scenario she may warn you that the consequences will be the loss of your friendship with her, and the loss of your friendship and romance with him. In short, that she would cut you out of their lives altogether. (And divorce him as well?) If those are her intentions, then I'd say your best move is to step away from the whole thing right now while your heart is still relatively only casually invested in it.

You, she, and her husband, still have some communicating to do so that you'll know exactly where you stand, and can make an informed decision for your own well-being as well as for theirs. I know it's not an easy situation, but you have to work with the choices you have, you know?

My best wishes go with you in any case.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[bookbug]

I have that feeling too... but is the reward worth the risk. IDK.

I would say then it is imperative to analyze the risk.

Here is what I lost:

1. My friend's friendship - her choice not mine.
2. The relationship I had with her children.
3. My sense of well-being. It took me 3 years to recover from the depression, sadness, and grief.

Here is what they lost:
1. Their marriage. Granted the marriage was already having some difficulty (that was not apparent on the surface). This did not help.

 

[A2Poly]

I would say then it is imperative to analyze the risk.

ITA. Part of that is figuring out what issues she is having, and part of THAT is figuring out what definitions she is using for words that seem to have different meanings to me.

The worst mistakes are made because we think we were communicating, but were actually talking past each other.

 

[Magdlyn]

Gosh. Your female friend "may have" come up with the idea for you and her husband to have sex. He and she plotted for him to seduce you, it seems? Not sure if this was one on one or a 3some? Either way, I'd wonder what in the heck her motivation was for that? I'd guess sexual titillation.

Then, no sooner did it happen, her husband must have expressed his deepening feelings for you as a result of this sexual contact. So she then immediately started freaking out about you two falling in love.

Her little plan for, for lack of a better term, "hot husbanding" (google hot wifing) backfired. She wasn't turned on by her husband having sex with another person after all! The sudden reality of feelings developing were far too scary.

But now the horse is out of the barn and she's trying to close the barn doors by telling you two not to fall in love, when romantic feelings have already started to develop.

Of course, despite your friend-type love for the guy, there are steps you can take to prevent a deepening relationship. First of all, no more sex, and no more flirting. Don't call, text or message him one on one. No Skype. No one on one dates. If you are visiting them, and she goes to bed early, you leave or go to bed, alone, no late night one on one conversations with the guy. No running out to the store together as just a chance to flirt and touch.

These are things monogamous people do all the time to prevent unwanted crushes from developing into something deeper.

If you choose, and your friend allows her husband to continue to grow a deeper friendship with you, allows one on one messaging or phoning, etc., feelings will continue to grow.

It can't be casual. It is possible you two could keep it to friends with benefits, by having mostly 3way sex, limiting messaging, limiting any one on one dates, not having sex every time you see each other, etc. That would be somewhere in between being lovers and being platonic friends.

That would take some finesse and loads of communication. If it is important to you and him to deepen your bond, he will have his work cut out to make that happen while dealing with his wife's jealousy.

Do you want to open this can of worms wider?

 

[A2Poly]

I'd wonder what in the heck her motivation was for that? I'd guess sexual titillation.

Thier relationship has been open for a long time, but never at home. Always at sex friendly festivals/events. She says that she thought it would be like that since I live a long way away. That it could be just a vacation thing. Anyway, I don't think it was as shallow as getting her rocks off on the idea, but it definitely wasn't as thought out as well as it should have been.

It is one of the (many) points we need to talk about.

If it is important to you and him to deepen your bond, he will have his work cut out to make that happen while dealing with his wife's jealousy.

I'm not sure jealousy is the right word (I'm not sure it is the wrong word either), there is, of course, a lot more going on around this than I can possibly portray on a board like this.

Do you want to open this can of worms wider?

Not necessarily. But I do need to deal with what has happened, and define what she IS ok with, and what she thinks she can learn to be ok with... and what *I* am ok with, and what *I* think I can learn to be ok with. I definitely agree that we need a lot more communication/definition/boundaries. There is a lot of history here, and a lot of love and a lot of trust, so we need to find a way to deal with what has happened, and what we want to happen in the future.

Which is why I'm here asking for help understanding her use of certain words, because she isn't doing a stellar job of defining how she is using them, and I want to be able to ask "when you say "casual" do you mean: X? Y? or Z?Because I can agree to X and/or Y, but Z is off the table for me....

 

[kdt26417]

I think she means "not falling in love" when she says "casual," but to know that for a fact you'd have to get her to give you her definition.

 

[GalaGirl]

Which is why I'm here asking for help understanding her use of certain words, because she isn't doing a stellar job of defining how she is using them, and I want to be able to ask "when you say "casual" do you mean: X? Y? or Z?Because I can agree to X and/or Y, but Z is off the table for me....

The discombobulated feelings that the sex share triggered will dissipate in time. You sound a bit wobbly right now and so does she. Good sex can do that to people.

How about a visual aid all can look at?

http://www.intrapsychictaxonomy.org/sternberg.htm

And some expanded definitions of those things?
http://sitemaker.umich.edu/psy457_lamyiu/sternberg_s_theory_of_love

Then y'all can just read and point on the circles to determine the (X, Y, but not Z) for each person at this point in time and what they are ok with it becoming in future for each mini-couple within the larger three people thing. See what lines up and what does not in terms of love share and sex share.

You guys are all friends -- so you have (companionate love) with the deeper friendship with her and (liking) with the friendship with him already.
They have marriage and presumably (consummate love) with each other. That's square 1.

This recent sex share -- was that a one time experiment? Now move on? Or is that something that will be explored more?

Will it...

• stay same at companionate love/liking (one time sex share experiment, move on)
• try to grow romantic love for you and him (increase mind intimacy, increase sex share as more than 1 time experiment)
• try to grow consummate love for you and him (love share, sex share, and commitment share?)
• Is she supposed to grow to be a lover too? Or remain a supportive friend and metamour? (the lover of my lover)
• They are supposed to maintain/grow in their consummate love how while weathering new changes in her relationship with you and his relationship with you? And you to them?

If you guys decide to polyship... How will you chose what model to practice together to grow the love to those places you all want to grow it to? A "V" model with him as the shared hinge? Something else?

http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef/poly/Labriola/open.html

What's each person's (X, Y, but not Z) on open models that could work for them and do not work for them?

If you read those three articles that could give you something to point to with some "workable enough common language" to get on with talking. Rather than struggling on defining FWB and all that preventing you from even getting on to HAVING the conversation.

Talking those things out could let you know if it is worth doing even more talking to sort out healthy boundaries and expectations in polyshipping. (Right now = General temperature taking. Rather than deep convo). If temperature taking means it is not looking like a good runner? Could leave it as friends who once had a 1 time sex share experiment that was fun.

You have known her for years... is her inability to articulate what she means as a potential weakness if you move on to polyship? Or is she just wobbly form recent sex share and normally is able to articulate fine?

You all might want to strengthen that area anyway within selves. Communication is pretty important and getting across what you mean so others can actually understand you matters.

GL!

Galagirl

 

[A2Poly]

How about a visual aid all can look at?

http://www.intrapsychictaxonomy.org/sternberg.htm

And some expanded definitions of those things?
http://sitemaker.umich.edu/psy457_lamyiu/sternberg_s_theory_of_love

Then y'all can just read and point on the circles to determine the (X, Y, but not Z) for each person at this point in time and what they are ok with.

Thank you for this! This is an excellent resource, I'm excited to share it!

Communication is pretty important and getting across what you mean so others can actually understand you matters.

Clear communication of emotion is historically a problem for her, and is a definite potential weakness. I'm not perfect in that area either, but I tend to move slower, and be more contemplative than either of them (he's somewhere in the middle. Badump Cha.) and that gives me time to go back and rethink and re-discuss my concerns.

I'm sure we'll sort it out.

Liking; loving; wherever we end up is a good place if we all agree we should be there.

 

[GalaGirl]

Glad it helps some. I hope the conversation goes well. GL!

Galagirl

 

[A2Poly]

The first conversation went well. He and I have a good ability to discuss things like this on the phone - which is great, given the distances. She, on the other hand, has been out of comm range so no chance to discuss anything with her, and by the time she gets home, and integrated back into her life I'll see her in person (a week and a half from now), so I'm 'saving' that conversation for face to face time. We can pick it up on the phone after I'm back home, but I think the first of the conversations needs to be in person.

Anyway:

We discussed his understanding of her boundaries, and my understanding of her boundaries, and my boundaries, and his. And brought up a lot of the points you all made, including clarifying what HIS motives were in 'pursuing' sex with me. And how that initial "permission" conversation occurred. Turns out there was not a lot of communication about it at all. It was more "I'm going to be out of the house the first night 'A2Poly' is here, you two should..." as she ran out of the house.

We also discussed how *for me* sex + good freindship will eventually turn into me falling in love with him, and that to continue down the path we are on with out us all knowing that would be foolish. And that, like Magdlyn said, there are ways to NOT be on this road - no more one on one ANYTHING with him. Ever. And certainly not at the level we have been at since the sex share. And of course that feels horrible to think about - for both of us (which was reassuring to hear: I'm not alone out here on this branch) - while we are in the middle of some kind of NRE.

One of the other things we discussed that has been bothering me was a seeming lack of communication about safe sex, and I needed to clarify their general operating procedures in comparison to what (didn't) happen with me. The general rule turns out to be "stay safe", but he had specific permission to forgo that with me. (Which he says is indicative of her level of trust with me... which feels right, but then why the lesser trust other places? I'm not sure she knows the answer - he definitely doesn't). And while I'm glad THEY discussed it, I'm still concerned that it wasn't discussed with me.

I really respect you, bookbug, for sharing your experience with me/us, and I think it had it's intended purpose. I am TERRIFIED of screwing this up, and understand what the consequences would be if I did. And the lack of communication between her and I right now feels insecure. Especially because she effectively made these two BIG decisions ('allowing' sex + no protection) without discussing either of the with me. And yes, as an adult I should have discussed both with him before proceeding, and am discussing them now, but I was swept away in the moment. So I'll take my share of the blame there.

When I write it out highlighting these points it sounds like they aren't respecting that I'm a person, that they are having conversations, and making decisions, that seriously affect my life without including me. But I don't believe that to be true over all - just in these circumstances. And I definitely don't think it was/is malicious. I think that her and my long, close, relationship gave her the false security to believe she could predict my reactions. Something I need to be equally aware of, and take care not to do.

For now, I left him with his decision to seek more clarity with her about their boundaries. And I will seek my own clarity, both with her and myself. Before anything else happens.

 

[GalaGirl]

It sounds like the talking is starting off and going ok. Keep going!

The only thing I would mention at this time is being aware of "charged vocabulary."

The ones that pop out to me are "permission" and "blame." You seem like you sometimes struggle for vocabulary.

And how that initial "permission" conversation occurred.

You are not asking for permission. That implies she owns him and he does not own himself or his time or his feelings or his stuff.

You are asking for her goodwill/blessing and willingness. Which she does own. She owns how she feels about things, her attitude towards things, her willingness to participate, her ability to participate, her stuff.

Same with him.

Same with you.

So I'll take my share of the blame there.

You are taking responsibility for your part of co-creating this situation. You all are adults. These conversations could have happened before sex share.

But framing it that way rather than as blame -- that implies you expect the others to man up and hold up their share too. ASK if they are willing/able to hold up their end of the sticks there too. Not you just becoming "the handy blame basket" for all and sundry that might still come down the pipe!

That also kinda tells you if you want to get deeper in this. If folks are not willing/able to take responsibility for their behaviors contributing to something now at the start? Ugh. Why get in deeper?

People could play like Star Wars Jedi with some kind of code of honor, not like Muppet Show like all wonky backstage chaos. (I joke to keep it light, but I'm also serious. Polyshipping with messy people is just not worth it.)

Once people polyship, all the cracks in the established couple can become magnified. Stuff that before would be ignored because "there's no other partner to be with so I just suck it up."

Now there is another partner to be with and there's a new choice of "I don't want to deal in this. I will go hang out with my other partner instead."

You don't want him hanging with you to avoid dealing with things in the (him + her) layer of the polymath. You don't want her dumping it all on you because she doesn't want to directly address whatever on the (her + him) layer that was there all along and she prefers he go back to just sucking it up.

I am not saying that they will do that... I'm saying it's something to watch out for. Coming to polyship with an established couple is a different experience than coming to polyship as three singles. I sometimes observe people with "blame the newbie" to the configuration because that is an obvious new thing. Picking up on the fact that while it might be the newbie that brings the thing to light but the thing was always there -- that's more subtle. And sometimes it IS the newbie.

Discernment matters. I find that sometimes "charged language" matters in breaking all that down and putting it back together again in an effective way when discerning. You might want to look up "Non Violent Communication" resources if this does become a polyshipping thing. Maybe in this preliminary discussion.

The simplest format is

"When I see/observe ____ I feel ____. I would like/need _____. Could you be willing to ______?"

Communication skills sounds like it is going to be a potential weakness here -- the WHEN of it, and maybe for her the HOW of it if she's not great at articulation.

But again -- kudos for a good start with him!

Galagirl

 

[A2Poly]

You are not asking for permission. That implies she owns him and he does not own himself or his time or his feelings or his stuff.

You are asking for her goodwill and blessing. Which she does own. She owns her "willing and able" and how she feels about things, her stuff.

You are taking responsibility for your part of co-creating this situation. You all are adults. These conversations could have happened before sex share.

But framing it that way rather than as blame -- that implies you expect the others to man up and hold up their share too. ASK if they are willing/able to hold up their end of the sticks there too.

Excellent points. I think I was less careful with my word choice in the post, than I was in the actual conversation, I'm pretty tired today (2 very long, very emotional, very late night conversations in one weekend and I'm bagged). It's had to be "on my game" all the time.

But you are very right that I need to be even more aware of it.

Communication skills sounds like it is going to be a potential weakness here -- the WHEN of it, and maybe for her the HOW of it if she's not great at articulation.

Yes, I think that is true, especially as I see him before I see her next. (A course together we have had booked for some time. And then we are going back to her together... I'm significantly worried about that imagery, believe me.) The timing sucks. But doesn't it always? Life is never as neat as we'd like. And she and I used to have a habit of long deep conversations on the phone. I think we need to find our way back there... It just feels like it needs to start in person.

 

[GalaGirl]

It's had to be "on my game" all the time.

Sure. Nobody is ALL the time. It's ok.

And then we are going back to her together... I'm significantly worried about that imagery, believe me.

What does that mean? She's picking you both up from the class at the airport? You are not able to just be dropped off at home and have this talk thing happen later?

Life is never as neat as we'd like.

Yup. Sometimes there is no great time, and one just makes the time because cannot postpone talking forever.

And she and I used to have a habit of long deep conversations on the phone. I think we need to find our way back there... It just feels like it needs to start in person.

In person helps. Then you get the verbal cues, the non-verbal cues, the paraverbal cues.

Galagirl

 

[A2Poly]

What does that mean? She's picking you both up from the class at the airport? You are not able to just be dropped off at home and have this talk thing happen later?

They live a 1 1/2 plane ride away from me, and the course is driving distance to them. He and I are meeting in the city for the course, and then taking public transport back to close to their house where she will pick us up. I'll spend the night and then head back home from there. With the distances involved it is either this trip, or wait another month or longer until I am back in their part of the world.