How much is too much?

[hislittlekitten]

I'm dating a non-monogamous guy (he's starting to prefer not to be called 'poly' because he isn't really establishing new relationships). He has me and another woman (who is married), both of us he considers his priorities.

But he looks for new prospects. He says he only intends to casually date them. That's fine. But he's constantly on the hunt. Constantly.

And he's talking about a new girl (or two) every single week.

It's wearing on me a lot. I really can't take it right now. We've had several talks and one big fight over it. After a lot of thinking, I set out a list of guidelines to accomplish a few things: to help him not talk about them as much, not put it in my face as much (we live very close to each other and he walked a new girl in front of my house the other night, while I was outside, unintentionally but still kinda in my face), etc. He has agreed to the guidelines and understands that it's the constant in-my-face aspect of it, not necessarily that he's seeing others. I'm also taking some space from him and limiting my time with him over the next few months; between my busy schedule and his kid duties / travel, we'll both be really busy until May.

Anyhow, while I'm happy he agreed with my guidelines - being more discreet, informing me of new sexual partners and making sure they're tested, etc. - I'm starting to wonder. What is "too much"? Is this something he is going to decide for himself? Is it reasonable for me to be uncomfortable at what seems like a free-for-all, non-monogamous (but not really "poly" unless you're talking "polyfuckery") behavior? At some point it might actually be an issue that he's seeing others - but more in the volume, not that he's doing it at all.

How can I help distinguish from what is reasonable and what is unreasonable?

Any thoughts? Please be kind and constructive. I'm open to your thoughts, but anything that isn't helpful just isn't necessary.

 

[GalaGirl]

Sounds like he gets a kick out of "always on the hunt." If that is what he enjoys then that is what he enjoys.

If you do not like being near that, then you do not like being near that. You sound like you are at limit of tolerance or past it.

If it is a dealbreaker or not? That is up to you to sit with and discern.

Is it reasonable for me to be uncomfortable at what seems like a free-for-all, non-monogamous (but not really "poly" unless you're talking "polyfuckery") behavior?

FWIW, I think it is reasonable for you to feel however you do. You are also allowed to decide for yourself what you choose to hang around.

If what he finds "exciting" you find "exhausting" to be near? Everyone is different. Even in what they value most... Maybe he values "changes" and you value "stability."

You are responsible for you and what you want to be around. It is ok and reasonable for you to make decisions for you. Including deciding you no longer want to date him because he dates so much changing so often that you no longer want to be a part of his dating circle because it turns you off.

Galagirl

 

[FallenAngelina]

How can I help distinguish from what is reasonable and what is unreasonable?

Some people go with their feelings, some people make lists, some people just let themselves swim along with the waves. How you know what is tolerable is a process, but no matter what you do, it's always your choice.

Whatever you decide to do, kitten, you are learning a tremendous amount right now about what you prefer in a relationship. No matter the action either of you take, you'll forevermore have this very formative experience to reflect upon when making relationship choices. I'm in my 5th decade of life and hope always to have new experiences that grab my attention and show me which way my path leads. Even though the water may be a bit muddied right now, this relationship is making very clear to you what you do and do not want in a love relationship.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi hislittlekitten,

Re (from OP):

"What is 'too much?'"

No official amount has been designated "too much" that I know of. Technically, the guy in question (K?) could have thousands of girlfriends (or one-night stands) without it being too much. *Unless* ... it is too much *to you.* So when you say, "How much is too much?" I turn around and say, "How much do *you* think is too much?"

Even if the question's in the style of an opinion poll, I still can't give you a numerical figure of what *I* think is too much. Reason being, because every situation is different. Heck in many situations, two partners would be too much. That would be your monogamous situations that are best left monogamous. In fact in some situations, one partner would probably be too much. That would be your cases of people who just aren't ready for a relationship ... that and your extreme introverts.

Coincidentally, I think two partners actually is the appropriate limit for most polyamorists. Simply because every time you add a partner, things get more complicated. It stands to reason that the smaller the number, the more likely it is that the people involved can handle it. And I use the word "partner" loosely. A one-night stand is "a partner for a day."

I've heard of "clusters" of say six or even a dozen intermingled partners, and they do often work, though obviously differently than a "mere" V. The time and energy available gets sliced thinner and thinner to accomodate the growing number of people. This may mean that the relationships won't be as deep/close/what have you, although some people have an awful lot of love and idealism to spread around, so, for some it can work.

I feel fairly safe in saying that once you exceed say a dozen, you are really spreading things thin, and probably don't have much in the way of substantial relationships; more of an ongoing orgy or lovefest.

In your particular case we are basically talking about 1½ new girls per week. You can do the math. 52 weeks per year; that's 78 new girls per year ... times, however many years you expect to be involved with this guy. Or rather, however many years he's got to live (unless we factor in the loss of good looks as he ages). All's I know is, that's a lot of girls. Maybe when he's rolled in the hay with every girl in town, he'll have to slow down? unless he's willing to put all the girls in rotation.

None of that really matters though; it may be useful as food for thought, but at the end of the day you still have to figure out how much is too much *for you.* Although I suspect GalaGirl's onto something when she says you're probably about at your limit right now. If not past it. *Can you stand more?* That's the question.

Re:

"Is this something he is going to decide for himself?"

Oh of course. It's not like you or I can decide for him. I guess you could ask him to slow down, but from what you're saying it doesn't sound to me like he's about to change his mind. He wants those women! and he's going to get 'em.

Re:

"Is it reasonable for me to be uncomfortable at what seems like free-for-all, non-monogamous behavior?"

Certainly it's reasonable. Now sure, some people might not mind, but everyone's allowed to have their own preferences. On the other hand, if you're asking, how rare is it that a guy's main partner/s would be okay with 1½ new girls per week, I'll estimate that it would be unusual (at best).

The thing is, the more time he invests in these new girls, the less time he has to invest in you. So, is his girl hunting starting to shrink your time allotment down to the point where your needs aren't being met? If it is, then it's reasonable indeed for you to feel uncomfortable about it.

Re:

"How can I help distinguish from what is reasonable and what is unreasonable?"

Personally, I think you should gauge that based on whether your own needs are being met. If he can juggle that many girls and still satisfy you with the amount of time and attention he gives you, then I guess he's in the clear.

That aside, you should ask yourself, "What is it about all these new girls that's getting under my skin?" It's not important whether it would bother other people, or why it would bother them. What matters is whether it bothers *you* -- and why.

Hopefully that gives you some useful stuff to chew on.
Regards,
Kevin T.

 

[hislittlekitten]

I have an update. I'm kinda posting from a blog post I wrote, so here we go.

Last night my partner and I had dinner with a friend of mine. This wasn’t planned; earlier that evening, he said his plans had changed and he knew I was seeing a friend, so he inquired initially about how long I was going to be at the cafe prior to meeting my friend. I wouldn’t be there for long, so I invited him to dinner.

He came to dinner with us but was acting differently and said he would have to go not long after dinner.

I’m not stupid; I know he had a booty call. He never mentioned it all night. I found out this morning; not because he told me, but because I asked. I also found out he had planned the booty call before he came to dinner. And I didn’t just ask about what he did last night after I went to bed; I asked him, point blank, if he had a booty call last night.

And yeah, he did.

When we parted last night, he said he might have coffee with me in the morning if he was awake. Well he didn’t. I knew when he didn’t message me back in the morning that he had the booty call. While he didn’t guarantee having coffee with me in the morning, and it could’ve been his own fault (this is what he claims, in fact) that he wasn’t awake at the time he would’ve needed to take me, it was cutting it close. He lost out on an opportunity to spend time with me because he fucked a fling, right after having dinner with me.

I told him I wasn’t mad. And I don’t know if I can characterize how I feel as being mad. But I had to pry this information out of him. He wasn’t being transparent and honest with me by going home to fuck that fling after spending an evening with me, not telling me that he made those plans.

He apologized, but he kept offering “solutions.” By this, I mean he talked about how he should have approached telling me that he was going to do this. And that he shouldn’t schedule things with me the same day he has plans with others. If I’m a priority, I feel like he should’ve stated it as “I shouldn’t schedule things the same day as I schedule things with you.”

The whole conversation felt way too close to a display of disrespect. Of trying to find loopholes for his excessiveness. Of excuses. Of greed.

What he did demonstrated to me that he doesn’t respect me. It says to me that he went for what he wanted without thinking about anyone else. It says to me that he cannot handle this setup. That he isn’t able to maturely have an open relationship. That he is trying to find a way to just do what he wants to do.

On the bright side, it sounds like he (finally?) sees why I am concerned. And if he is willing to scale down, then we may be okay. But if he isn’t, then I am another few steps closer to walking away entirely.

Any thoughts?

 

[graviton]

The whole conversation felt way too close to a display of disrespect. Of trying to find loopholes for his excessiveness. Of excuses. Of greed.

What he did demonstrated to me that he doesn’t respect me. It says to me that he went for what he wanted without thinking about anyone else. It says to me that he cannot handle this setup. That he isn’t able to maturely have an open relationship. That he is trying to find a way to just do what he wants to do.

ummmmm ....its not your place to judge if he's excessive or greedy. It doesn't sound like he broke any rules. You even asked him to be discreet and when he was discreet you are still hurt. Your only rightful response is to tell him what behavior you wish for him to agree to in order to stay in a relationship with you. If that means putting a cap on booty calls then tell him, otherwise you're just not being clear and confusing the hell out of him. It sounds to me like you are unable to handle this "setup". Or are you the only one allowed to "set things up" and he just needs to fit in that framework? Try seeing it through his eyes. This is nonmonogamy...and only the TWO of you can decide on the setup. If one of you disagrees and breaks that promise then its up to you to make your boundaries clear.

 

[hislittlekitten]

ummmmm ....its not your place to judge if he's excessive or greedy. It doesn't sound like he broke any rules. You even asked him to be discreet and when he was discreet you are still hurt. Your only rightful response is to tell him what behavior you wish for him to agree to in order to stay in a relationship with you. If that means putting a cap on booty calls then tell him, otherwise you're just not being clear and confusing the hell out of him. It sounds to me like you are unable to handle this "setup". Or are you the only one allowed to "set things up" and he just needs to fit in that framework? Try seeing it through his eyes. This is nonmonogamy...and only the TWO of you can decide on the setup. If one of you disagrees and breaks that promise then its up to you to make your boundaries clear.

ummmmmm.... Use your reading skills. I said "felt." It "felt" that way. Do you know the difference between perception and reality and that sometimes they aren't the same thing? They certainly can be. I said it FELT like greed.

Also, you don't know our guidelines. You don't know our "rules." He agreed that not telling me was skirting our goals of being transparent and honest.

He makes his guidelines too. Even if I don't like them, I respect them.

 

[hislittlekitten]

ummmmm ....its not your place to judge if he's excessive or greedy. It doesn't sound like he broke any rules. You even asked him to be discreet and when he was discreet you are still hurt. Your only rightful response is to tell him what behavior you wish for him to agree to in order to stay in a relationship with you. If that means putting a cap on booty calls then tell him, otherwise you're just not being clear and confusing the hell out of him. It sounds to me like you are unable to handle this "setup". Or are you the only one allowed to "set things up" and he just needs to fit in that framework? Try seeing it through his eyes. This is nonmonogamy...and only the TWO of you can decide on the setup. If one of you disagrees and breaks that promise then its up to you to make your boundaries clear.

Also, I have every right to have the opinion that he is being greedy or excessive. I've laid out what I wish for him to do to stay within what I'm OK with in our relationship. Just because I find him to be excessive or greedy doesn't mean I can even do anything about it, or that it would be fair of me to change elements of our agreements because I find it greedy and excessive. But I have the right to think so.

So what's next? Any more subtle mono bashing? "This is nonmonogamy"... no shit, dude. I think I've figured out at least that much.

 

[kdt26417]

I don't think you have aught against nonmonogamy per se. But I do think the kind and amount of nonmonogamy your partner engages in doesn't sit well with you. Does he come across as being greedy? He does. Does he give the impression of making up excuses for his greed? He does. Now the big question: How does that affect you? Let's discuss it.

I believe more communication is needed ... and, yes, I think you should be crystal clear with him about what you do and don't want ... what is and isn't a hard line in the sand for you. Do you want him to (eventually?) stop indulging in booty calls altogether? If you just want him to cut down, what's a concrete way for him to know if he's cutting down enough?

You shouldn't be offended that he doesn't know what you want without him being told. I suspect that you find his womanizing repulsive, yet he doesn't find it repulsive so how can he know your thoughts on the matter? Don't just drop hints, tell him *exactly* what you want, and what your limits are.

Considering he is a man who has no qualms about fucking 1½ new women every week, I wonder if partnering with him is really good for you. Is it good for your conscience? for your sense of good taste? Sure he's the one fucking those women, but you're the one partnering with the man who fucks those women.

I don't mean to be insulting towards you. What I'm trying to say is that if you believe he's acting immoral, then you have to know that he has an immoral mind and disposition, in which case your association with him makes you an immoral man's ally, and thus your ethics become compromised by extension.

So even if he does what you tell him to do: if he still has a filthy mind and the will to do filthy things if you don't stop him, then perhaps he is not the quality of man you would want to associate yourself with? In other words, breaking up with him might be the thing to do here.

I guess it depends how strongly you feel about his behavior (and the mind he must have in order to engage in that behavior). I get the impression you feel pretty strongly about it?

 

[hislittlekitten]

I don't think you have aught against nonmonogamy per se.

You are correct. I don't have anything against non-monogamy in general. On a personal level, I am good with having a metamour or two. I don't think there is anything wrong with the occasional casual partner. By occasional, I think to me that means monthly.

Do you want him to (eventually?) stop indulging in booty calls altogether?

No, not for the foreseeable future. But I think maybe once a week is, in my opinion, not excessive. I struggle with telling him a definite number, as if I'm limiting him. Because, well... am I not limiting him? Is it not limiting him if I say, "I feel like one booty call with a casual sex partner a week sounds good and acceptable to me."

You shouldn't be offended that he doesn't know what you want without him being told.

Kind of unsure where this came across that I haven't told him. On the one hand, I've addressed everything that's happened that we can make remarks on. On the other hand, on occasion, something new will come up that we haven't thought about - a new situation, a new request. In that case, like this one - something a bit different from anything we've ever handled - I addressed it without holding it against him as something I find unacceptable.

Considering he is a man who has no qualms about fucking 1½ new women every week, I wonder if partnering with him is really good for you.

Yeah, you're right. That's what I need to tell him. Today I said this, and I think I will say it again.

I don't mean to be insulting towards you.

You are not, and thank you. I was insulted by graviton's post. It was unnecessarily condescending, in my opinion. What you offer is actually helpful.

What I'm trying to say is that if you believe he's acting immoral, then you have to know that he has an immoral mind and disposition, in which case your association with him makes you an immoral man's ally, and thus your ethics become compromised by extension.

That's a great way to articulate it and I was definitely feeling that way. I was thinking, "I'm not sure I want to be part of what this man wants to do."

I get the impression you feel pretty strongly about it?

Oh yes, I do. I very much do. It's influencing me a lot, and sometimes taking away time or cutting it very close. As I like to say, if my boundaries are the fences at a baseball field, then he's always hanging out really far out in the outfield.

And I think he's climbing over the fence too...

We did discuss it today and he didn't have a strong reaction to it. He said he has some thinking to do. He said he wasn't upset, so I'm not sure exactly what's going on in his head. I respect that he may disagree with how I feel about it and he may want to keep doing what he's doing. But it will drive me away.

 

[GalaGirl]

if he is willing to scale down, then we may be okay. But if he isn’t, then I am another few steps closer to walking away entirely.

Have you asked if he's willing to scale down to 1 booty call a week? What did he respond with?

Galagirl

 

[Lilyan]

I'm dating a non-monogamous guy (he's starting to prefer not to be called 'poly' because he isn't really establishing new relationships). He has me and another woman (who is married), both of us he considers his priorities.

But he looks for new prospects. He says he only intends to casually date them. That's fine. But he's constantly on the hunt. Constantly.

And he's talking about a new girl (or two) every single week.

Has he changed his behaviour lately, or has he been looking for new women constantly from the beginning of your relationship (and before that)?

 

[kdt26417]

Re (from hislittlekitten):

"Is it not limiting him if I say, 'I feel like one booty call with a casual sex partner a week sounds good and acceptable to me.'"

It is not limiting in the sense that it's not within your power to limit him to one casual sex partner a week. You can ask him to limit himself, but it's up to him whether he complies.

On the other hand, if this is a boundary for you, then you can notify him that he needs to take it down to one a week if he wants you to continue being his partner. Then he has a choice to make ... give up that extra ½ chick per week, or give up his partnership with you. Either way he does have to choose a limitation compared to the freedoms he currently enjoys.

So, have you asked him to cut down to one new girl a week? and if so, what was his answer?

 

[hislittlekitten]

Have you asked if he's willing to scale down to 1 booty call a week? What did he respond with?

Galagirl

I haven't yet.

 

[hislittlekitten]

Re (from hislittlekitten):


It is not limiting in the sense that it's not within your power to limit him to one casual sex partner a week. You can ask him to limit himself, but it's up to him whether he complies.

On the other hand, if this is a boundary for you, then you can notify him that he needs to take it down to one a week if he wants you to continue being his partner. Then he has a choice to make ... give up that extra ½ chick per week, or give up his partnership with you. Either way he does have to choose a limitation compared to the freedoms he currently enjoys.

So, have you asked him to cut down to one new girl a week? and if so, what was his answer?

I think that because it is a boundary then I will be stating it in that way.

I haven't asked yet, but we did have a good talk and he said that he has some thinking to do. He said he wasn't upset, so maybe he will think about it. I have said not to take it down a notch yet - but I have said what I think of the behavior, and how his latest display of fooling around to me was something that set a dangerous precedent for how to treat people and that I don't think someone who values me would do that, and that a girl who values herself wouldn't permit herself being subject to being with a partner who does that.

It seemed positive and we're talking, but who knows? I'm kind of worried about what the discussion will be the next time, however I think I approached it well this time - in part due to the advice on this thread.

 

[hislittlekitten]

Has he changed his behaviour lately, or has he been looking for new women constantly from the beginning of your relationship (and before that)?

He had vacillated between talking to a lot of girls and not really being too involved in it. But he never really went on many dates or slept with many women before this; he didn't sleep with anyone else, besides me and my metamour, actually.

Now it seems like he's talking to so damn many girls, I can't keep them straight. And meeting them. And fucking them.

But what's mostly changed is... from the beginning, at least of where our relationship turned from casual to, well, a relationship, it was supposed to be me, my metamour, and maybe another girl as sexual partners. Then of course, anyone who participated in a threesome with us. And he would tell me if he was talking to a girl or would go out with someone... and it was one... like, a month... if that... then suddenly it was five names in five weeks, and then went up from there! It was insane. So much, all at once.

Part of me does feel like it's my fault... we have had some arguments over it, and I felt like he was just continuing the behavior because something (the behavior itself) was driving us apart. But things were really good from mid-January until Valentine's Day... then right after Valentine's Day, that's when it got frequent. He got turned down by someone around then and it seemed like it hurt his ego a bit. I think he is definitely enjoying the ones he's scoring right now.

 

[hislittlekitten]

So I haven't asked him to scale down (yet)... but what I did is express reservations about what's going on, that I am uncomfortable, and we could elaborate more when we had the chance to talk in person (he has his children right now so it's difficult to get time to talk).

He took some actions before I even had the chance to talk in person. He deleted his dating profiles. I then told him about the frequency of casual partners and how the number of them he's had in the space of time makes me uncomfortable. In fact, it makes me less inclined to have sex with him. It pretty much kills my sex drive.

I told him to think about that and we could talk about it when we see each other, and I'm not sure how that's going to go, but so far things look to be going in the right direction.

Thank you all for your frames of reference, advice, and help in ways to think about things. I think this is really helping and I'm hoping that it results in a positive outcome (not just for me but for him too).

 

[kdt26417]

Sounds good; keep us posted.

 

[Len51]

I see some guys using poly as a reason for having sex with whomever they meet without jeopardising their existing relationships. Can you picture a long life together with him feeling the way you do? Can you trust him to tell you ahead of time when he has sex with other women? Do you really think he is going to ask every girl to get tested?

Me, my wife and our shared girlfriend were in a polyfidelity relationship for much of our 40+ year marriage. We never had a problem. Aside the fact that I see too many guys slapping a fancy name on being a slut to maintain their safety net at home, there are very real and deadly dangers. We learned first hand that when you have sex with a person you are also having sex with everyone else they had sex with and who those people had sex with, etc. All it takes is a broken condom or as guys sometimes do, forget to use one due to being drunk or whatever excuse they have. Then let's talk about what happens if one of his many girls gets pregnant. How would you feel about the attention and time he spends with the mother of his child and maybe desire to marry the mother?

I am pro poly but whether sex is out in the open or cheating, the dangers are the same and in fact more so with a situation like yours due to more opportunity for additional sex partners. I do not sugar coat things. I speak from experience and knowing which relationships worked and did not work among our poly friends.

 

[Marcus]

The whole conversation felt way too close to a display of disrespect. Of trying to find loopholes for his excessiveness. Of excuses. Of greed.

What he did demonstrated to me that he doesn’t respect me.

He doesn't respect *you*?

As far as I can tell, this fellow lives his life in a way that runs contrary to the way you find acceptable. It doesn't appear that he has any intention of running his life any different, so I fail to see how your continuing to feel disrespected by his unacceptable lifestyle is going to alter the situation.

You have a very negative viewpoint of how he chooses to live his life of "excessiveness" and "greed", I'm not sure why you continue to date him. Is it because you are waiting for him to change to suit your preference?