It's a Texlahoma Story

[nycindie]

Hmmm. I see "we're all in this together" as something quite different from feeling like we all have to be buddy-buddy with our lovers' lovers. And I would NEVER view my lovers and their lovers/partners/what-have-you as all being part of one family. I kind of cringe when people refer to their networks as a poly family. I am solo poly all the way. But I do wish good will towards metamours.

But you know, Alan is a long-time member here, and posts here regularly. Why not start a thread and ask him about it?

 

[icesong]

I don't have any negative feelings toward my current metamours, I think they're great women. I think Andy and Dag see each other as "reasonable friends".

But I don't think any of us have the "we're all in this together" feeling, except maybe the Steph-me-Andy vee. (And that comes from decades of friendship, not any romantic connections.)

And I certainly can't promise to "genuinely wish good things" for any and every person my husband or boyfriend happens to date. I might like them. I might love them. I might tolerate them. Or, I might hate their guts. I would try very hard to accept any relationship my partners' entered. I wouldn't try to talk them out of dating someone unless I felt it was an unsafe or abusive relationship.

If I had a metamour I couldn't stand, I'd do my best to be civil when necessary, avoid them as much as possible, and confine my hateful ranting to this blog. But relationships and friendships and love aren't transitive. Someone isn't necessarily my friend and/or my family just because my partner is dating them.

My personal take on that is more "I wish them well because it would make my partner sad if they were sad. Of course, TheKnight has never dated anyone I flat-out disliked. (I suspect I would have disliked Pink!Girl if that hadn't been a quad, or perhaps we would have become good friends - as it was it was terribly complicated.)

I mean, I don't really *need* to know the people my husband dates or my boyfriend dates - but bad things happening to them would add stress to my lovers' lives and I don't want that, therefore... so THAT is the space that I wish good things for them.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

Had to mull this over for a while...

I mean, I don't really *need* to know the people my husband dates or my boyfriend dates - but bad things happening to them would add stress to my lovers' lives and I don't want that, therefore... so THAT is the space that I wish good things for them.

I like that sentiment

Hmmm. I see "we're all in this together" as something quite different from feeling like we all have to be buddy-buddy with our lovers' lovers.

So how do you see it?

I guess my issue is that requiring friendship - or even well wishes - seems like making rules around *feelings*. I don't think of feelings as something I can completely control. Work on, yes, change at the drop of a hat just to please someone, no. The idea that caring about your metamours is necessary, as opposed to ideal or helpful, is kind of scary. It seems like denying people the right to their own opinions.

And I wasn't completely kidding about "guess I'll need that veto now". I can be 100% on board with my husband and boyfriend choosing and managing their own relationships - *if* I have no obligations to their other partners beyond basic human decency. Once you get into "you have to spend X amount of time with her" or "you have to like her"... No. I won't agree to that. (And as I've said, I feel like I *can't* promise to like her.) I'm just really dead set against the idea that I have to spend my free (as in, non work) time and energy on people I didn't choose.

Even as close as we are, my husband and I are two separate people. We have similar opinions about most people, but not all of them. I'm fine with that, and I don't think either of us should have to feel badly if we dislike one of the other's partners.

 

[WhatHappened]

Interesting article linked here

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78606

that suggests people who are flexible thinkers and tolerant of ambiguity are better suited for poly.

.... There is so much I read about poly that I quite simply can't fit into my brain.....

Non-escalator relationships are still the number one mind fuck for me. My world has a category called Life Partner, and a category called Friend. There isn't anything in between. No matter how well someone explains their non escalator relationship, I'm still thinking, "Soooo, yeah, a friend you have sex with. Cool." I cannot, for the life of me, discern the difference between a close FWB and a non escalator boyfriend/girlfriend.

I completely get having multiple life partners - it's not something I need or want, but I understand it. Triads, quads, vees, whatever, who all share homes and finances. Or, poly people who split their time equally between two or more separate partnerships, sharing an entangled life with each partner, having two homes. But my brain seizes up when anyone talks about having two equally important partnerships even though they only share an entangled life with one. It's not even that I think the entangled partnership is necessarily more important. It's worse than that. I can't see the non-entangled relationship as a partnership at all.
....

I don't buy into the whole 'poly people are better at all these things' business. It smacks of the 'poly people are more enlightened,' and if that were true, this board would have little but positive poly stories. Poly people are...people. Ups and downs, ins and outs just like any other group of people.

That said, everything you said makes more sense than anything else I've read...or experienced...about secondary relationships. I don't think it's 'tolerance of ambiguity' to be able to see it otherwise, but engaging in holding two contradictory ideas.

XBF (who btw saw himself as very enlightened ) kept telling me that he could have two equal relationships, that my being a girlfriend and her being a wife had no impact on me, that I would be like any other girlfriend and absolutely 100% never ever ever 'second.'

However, when I tried to understand how this worked, he couldn't actually explain it. And he's very smart and very good with words...but he still couldn't explain. So he just got angry if I asked too may questions, and accused me of being determined to prove it couldn't work when in fact I was doing just the opposite, because I wanted it to work so badly. I was trying to understand how it could from the self-proclaimed expert.

When push came to shove, he admitted that his wife and marriage were his 'priority.' Words mean something. If X is the priority, Y, by definition is not. He should have been honest about that much earlier in the relationship, instead of engaging in word games with me and trying to convince me I was somehow an equal priority and importance in his life.

 

[Tinwen]

Non-escalator relationships are still the number one mind fuck for me. My world has a category called Life Partner, and a category called Friend. There isn't anything in between. No matter how well someone explains their non escalator relationship, I'm still thinking, "Soooo, yeah, a friend you have sex with. Cool." I cannot, for the life of me, discern the difference between a close FWB and a non escalator boyfriend/girlfriend.
...
I don't actually see Andy as my primary and Dag as my secondary. I see Andy as my husband/partner in life, and Dag as a close friend, with frequent benefits. The idea of a "secondary" relationship doesn't have a space in my brain, you're either life partners, or...

I also read this post of yours with interest. It has a lot of good self-reflection and leads me to reflection too.

I think a part of why you have a problem grasping why people talk about something "inbetween" is, that you have very, very close friends (you wrote it to Spork somewhere, I don't remember where).
As much as I would like to have close friends to talk to several times a week and help out in a crisis, in fact, I don't. My friends cathegory has mainly people I see aprox. once a month to once a year, and we are able to share personal things, or people I do fun stuff with. Some of them I like a lot and some of them I know for years, but we are not very commited to each other. That means, there is a lot of space between friend and a life partner. Also, if I experience romantic attraction to someone, this tends to make him stand out and doubt the term "friend" accurate.
In your case, since you have really close friends and especially if you allow for romance with friends, maybe there is no "gap" to fit a boyfriend relationship in.
The difference between FWB and boyfriend? 100 people 100 words. For me, it's romance or the debth of expectations. I am more* likely to call someone I have fallen in love with a boyfriend then a FWB. That means, along with other things, I will miss him terribly if we don't meet for a week. Also, I am more likely to place expectations like "sure he can make time for me", or "sure he can help me move" on them (perhaps unfair, but that's how I work). FWB is a friend I have sex with , so I will meet him how often convenient to both and place less expectations.

I try to think about this stuff, and I give myself a headache. Because I think, ok, what if Anna-Louise does want something in-between FWBs and life partners? What would that look like? For Andy to be there for her in a crisis? Hmmm, no, that falls under friend stuff. For Andy to pay half her kids' college tuition? Noooo, that seems like life-partner stuff. I honestly cannot come up with any concrete examples of in-between which is why I just have those two categories, I guess.

Being there in crisis doesn't necessarily fall in friend stuff for me. I'm glad if I can be there for friends in crisis, and if I have one I will seek a friend, but I don't expect a single one of them to drop other things in their life to help me. I do expect that from a partner though, even if secondary.
I agree paying tuiton fees is life partner stuff. I would never accept an offer to pay half the tuiton from someone I view a friend (I would be afraid that I never can bring enough value to their life to "earn" it), but I may under some circumstances from a partner, even if I wasn't his primary. That is, if he behaved like a second partner to my kids.

I guess I have very entangled romance=partnership=commitment view, I migt want to weaken this a bit

*edited

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

I don't think it's 'tolerance of ambiguity' to be able to see it otherwise, but engaging in holding two contradictory ideas.

XBF (who btw saw himself as very enlightened ) kept telling me that he could have two equal relationships, that my being a girlfriend and her being a wife had no impact on me, that I would be like any other girlfriend and absolutely 100% never ever ever 'second.'

...

When push came to shove, he admitted that his wife and marriage were his 'priority.' Words mean something. If X is the priority, Y, by definition is not. He should have been honest about that much earlier in the relationship, instead of engaging in word games with me and trying to convince me I was somehow an equal priority and importance in his life.

Thank you for writing this - I really feel like I'm either stupid or crazy sometimes trying to understand poly

Maybe people lose sight of the difference between *love* and *logistics*. You can love two people at the same time - even the same amount! - but time and energy are finite.

I struggle sometimes because I still see Dag's problems as, well, *Dag's* problems. While I see any issue Andy has as *our* problem. A lot of that is the inevitable result of being entangled with one partner and not the other. If Dag loses his wallet, I'm sympathetic, I can offer advice... But it doesn't directly affect me, and there's nothing I can really do. If Andy loses his? Well, shit, that's also my bank account and credit at risk. And I can call credit card companies, health insurance, etc, to get replacement cards, log in to all his accounts, etc.

Sometimes it's just a matter of, with friends and non escalator relationships, you don't *know* everything. I have to ask Dag what I can do to help if there's a problem, ask when he's free to meet up, ask what's going on in his day. Whereas when you live with someone... you almost get all that by osmosis. It's simpler and easier to schedule stuff, help out, find time together.

I know some poly people are determined to do the hard work to make escalator and non escalator relationships feel equal and balanced. I'm sure many do manage it. I just... I do not feel up to that task, I guess. Maybe it will happen naturally once Dag and I have been together longer. But I definitely don't feel I can *promise* that to Dag, or anyone. I feel like it would be really shitty of me to pretend otherwise.

In your case, since you have really close friends and especially if you allow for romance with friends, maybe there is no "gap" to fit a boyfriend relationship in.
The difference between FWB and boyfriend? 100 people 100 words. For me, it's romance or the debth of it. I am not likely to call someone I have fallen in love with a boyfriend. That means, along with other things, I will miss him terribly if we don't meet for a week. Also, I am more likely to place expectations like "sure he can make time for me", or "sure he can help me move" on them (perhaps unfair, but that's how I work). FWB is a friend I have sex with , so I will meet him how often convenient to both and place less expectations.

I think this is a really good analysis. I do have a few casual friendships, but when I use the word "friend", I'm talking about the half dozen or so closest people in my life. And other than sex, there's really not a difference between how those relationships and my relationships with "boyfriends". I have the same level of expectations, the same feelings of obligation. I actually would be more hurt if my long-time friends failed to come through in a crisis than if Dag did... we just have a longer tradition of showing up for each other in that way.

The other big puzzle piece is that I have a hard time defining "romance" and "falling in love". When I think romance, I think weddings The stuff other people point to - NRE, butterflies, that feeling of needing to see someone constantly, or craving physical contact with them - I get that with friends, all the time. I just don't necessarily want sex with them.

(Like, I have crazy K cravings right now, and she is out of town for the second weekend in a row, and it sucks I miss her energy, her vibe, her laugh, her hugs, her everything, I am like a junkie who needs a hit of my friend right now. It's the same way I miss Dag when I don't see him enough.)

Someone I saw only when the stars aligned would probably not feel like a FWB to me, because if they didn't prioritize me at all, I wouldn't consider them a real friend. Maybe I'd see that as a fuck buddy? Although, honestly, if I didn't feel like I could count on seeing someone regularly and knowing I was at least kinda important, I doubt I'd feel comfortable having sex with them anyway.

 

[Tinwen]

The other big puzzle piece is that I have a hard time defining "romance" and "falling in love". When I think romance, I think weddings The stuff other people point to - NRE, butterflies, that feeling of needing to see someone constantly, or craving physical contact with them - I get that with friends, all the time. I just don't necessarily want sex with them.

So maybe you fall in love easily and make friends out of these people? I think that's great.
I have only one (female) friend I experienced this kind of NRE with, and she's dear to me, but she's not very available time-wise, so I had to gradually cut those feelings down . Otherwise, I've only fallen in love 3 times in my whole lifetime (in high-school once, and then with my ex, and the absolutely-crazy-cravy-head-in-the-sky experience I had with Idealist), so it's rather rare to me. I know poly people often do fall for someone more easily.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

Disclaimer : Rambling processing. Bad mood. Take whatever I say with a grain of salt.

I'm feeling so low today

Just sitting here wiping away tears and wondering why I even try with poly. I miss the way I used to feel - happy, safe, secure, content. Now I'm just stressed the fuck out constantly. If I had to name the emotion I feel the most frequently? Guilt. The guilt feelings never entirely go away. I want to go back to just living my life and enjoying it.

I love Dag. So much. I think he's one of the most wonderful people I've ever met. But I'm tired of being so stinking unhappy. I'm tired of feeling like a failure all the time. I'm tired of feeling guilty because we don't have sex often enough. I'm tired of putting effort in to see him and then somehow it doesn't "count" because my husband was there.

I've tried to talk to him, I don't know how many times, but he cuts it off and says he's completely happy with the way things are. I'll say, ok, but when you say "I wish xyz" - that makes me think, well, that you want xyz, and that having xyz would make you happier. And he's just, "oh no I was just getting carried away I'll stop talking about that."

What would make me happy? What would get rid of the constant "I'm a shitty girlfriend" feelings? I don't know. If I really truly 100% trusted him to come to me if he was unhappy, that would help. A lot. But I'm not sure he would. He is so freaked out by emotions and processing and communication. Talking about feelings makes him break out in a sweat. When I get sad around him, he gets a deer in the headlights expression and tries to distract me. So I worry that he would just ... I don't know. Disappear on me instead of talking about stuff. Or cheat. I'd be fine with opening things up to his finding new partners, but I'd want to know. And he is so used to the DADT thing, I stress out that he'd be uncomfortable telling me about it.

I read over what I just wrote, and it seems like a pretty clear case of needing to work on our communication. Hmmm. Not something I've ever had to do in that kind of deliberate way. My husband and my friends and I are all pretty much the same kind of communicators... I've never had this roadblock feeling before.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

So I went and pulled weeds for two hours, trying to work out my stress...

And it didn't help. Although I did get some thinking done.

I know that if I feel like I'm struggling in my communication with Dag, I should work on it. But I don't feel like I can ask for that. Like it's too much work for this type of relationship Dumb, right... After a year and a half I should feel ok asking for things.

It's just... Everything I can think of that makes me feel safe and secure and comfortable in a relationship ... Everything that makes me feel like, yes, we are both in this for the long haul and willing to work on it... It's all "escalator stuff". I don't know that I will *ever* feel that way with Dag. He can tell me he loves me until he's blue in the face, but I've never met his parents. I don't have a key to his house. This isn't move in together or legal obligations stuff, it's the baby escalator steps that I've taken with all my friends!

When I first started dating Dag, I freaked out because things weren't progressing along the relationship escalator I was used to. So I did the mental processing, learned about non-escalator relationships, and accepted that my relationship with Dag would probably look, in my eyes, more like friends with benefits than boyfriend-girlfriend. But now... I feel like we're not even keeping that pace. I'm completely separate from the rest of his life. I would think it was really fucking weird if I was platonic friends with someone for 18 months and never met any of their family or coworkers or friends. And yup, it's feeling weird to me with Dag, too.

So what do I do? No idea. I really want to be with Dag. But I also want - need - to feel important, and valued, and secure. I don't know if I can have both.

Also, I totally started crying writing those last few sentences. Because it is tough for me to say, hey, I deserve relationships that make me feel good about myself.

 

[OnceAndFuture]

I know I probably don't have the right words but I hope you can have a conversation about this with Dag at the right time--I know it can't be easy. You do deserve a relationship that makes you happy!

 

[KC43]

But hey... you *do* deserve relationships that make you feel good about yourself.

You said something about not feeling like you can ask to work on communication in "this type of relationship"... Um, what "type" of relationship doesn't allow for working on communication? As far as I know, even among acquaintances if communication sucks, you sort it out. Among friends, if there's a communication gap, you sort it out. With someone you're fucking, whether you call it FWB or partners or whatever, you damn sure have a right to sort out communication issues.

I get the way Dag is because that's how Hubby is. Don't talk about feelings. Don't ask about feelings. Etc. Though Hubby's gotten somewhat better about that because he knows it worries me if I have no idea what's going on or if he isn't willing to assure me that he and I are okay if things feel stressy. And that's the thing... Hubby is VERY uncomfortable talking about that kind of thing, but he will make the effort if he sees that not knowing what's going on is causing problems for me.

If Dag cares about you, as he seems to, if you explain why you need to know what he's feeling and that you need his assurance that he will tell you if he starts seeing someone else, it shouldn't be a problem.

The only thing in your post that I can see his side more than yours is the bit about time with him not counting if Andy is also there. I wouldn't count it either, to be honest, just like the one movie night Stella showed up, I didn't count that as "Woody and me" time because Stella was there. I don't really count movie nights at all as Woody and me time, because other people are there. Woody and me time is time when we can relax together, and snuggle, and talk about things without being interrupted by half a dozen other people. So I can see where Dag is coming from if he's saying time with you doesn't count if he's sharing that time with Andy; he isn't dating Andy. I'm not dating Stella, or Mouse, or Doll, or Hair, or whoever all else wanders into the house. While there's nothing wrong with spending time with those other people, sometimes I want to spend time with my partner, not with my-partner-and-everyone-else.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

Thanks guys. I am just having one hell of a shitty weekend, and it sucks when the person you want to lean on isn't there in quite the way you want them to be.

Andy's foot is giving him issues again... Pro tip, if you break your toe hiking, don't be all, it's just a toe! They don't even do anything for broken toes! Let's just keep going up the mountain, even though we're past 10,000 feet and there's very little oxygen! Seriously. Two years and two surgeries, 3 different pieces of bone removed and some very pricey screws. It no longer hurts him all the time (yay!) but since it is now engineered differently than a normal big toe-foot joint, there's insane blisters every time he walks more than a few miles. Friday was foot doctor, hacking off blisters and callus, Andy is supposed to rest the foot for a week.

And I'm just... Frustrated. Tired of these interruptions to our life. Tired from being Andy's support system, nurse, and cheerleader. I need somebody to lean on, too, and it would be nice if that could be Dag. At the very least, I need him to get that I'm down and not up for being Super Fun Sexy Girlfriend today. But every time I try to talk to him about being sad, he changes the subject.

Me:I haven't been able to stop crying all day
Dag:Awwww babe
Me: I'm just exhausted, you know? I can't sleep. I get so scared life will never be normal again, that all of the plans and dreams will have to be abandoned, that it's just going to be a lifetime of doctors and surgeries and watching life pass us by.
Dag: yeah, I hear that...
Dag: I'm going to Target

Not even joking. I wish I was joking.

It's hard because I'm used to Andy, and my guy friends, who are all about the feelings and group hugs and group cries. It's hard to see the lack of support as coming from a lack of ability, as opposed to a lack of giving a shit. It makes me worry that I'm only welcome in his life if I'm easy going and fun and simple. That if I became to much work, he's going to... I dunno. Leave? I know that sounds silly. It's how i feel sometimes, though.

I'm pretty sure Dag gives a shit. I think he wants to be there for me. But, and this is kind of like when my anxiety was bad a couple of months ago, I just feel too tapped out to explain what I need from him. It's easier to just call my dad or K. But not teaching Dag how to be there just reinforces that pattern...

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

Couldn't sleep again last night

I'm trying to sort out what is *my* shit to work on vs what is stuff Dag and I need to talk about/ work on together.

The assumptions I make about non-escalator relationships, I know that's a "me thing". And it's definitely a thing I need to work on...

I can't quite shake the storyline in my head, the one that says if a guy really loves you, he'll step up and put a ring on it Never mind that I'm already married and so is my boyfriend - there's a stubborn little voice that tells me, "he's obviously just not that into you". I guess I've always assumed that people choose non-escalator type relationships because they want something easy and fun - and a quick escape if things get rough. Maybe because they don't want to do hard relationship work in general, or maybe because they don't think a particular person is worth the work... But a lack of entanglement has always seemed like a lack of commitment.

So it's just incredibly hard for me to ask Dag for ... well, anything. But I need to get over that. It's just not working for me to have somebody who's a big part of my life but not part of my support system.

The other issue - the stress about us not having sex enough, me not being sexy enough - I need to talk to Dag about. I think I'm going to write him an email, I know that's his preferred way to talk over serious topics. I'd rather do it in person... But that makes him feel cornered and put on the spot, and he just says whatever he thinks I want to hear

I just don't know what to say, or how to say it. What I want to get across is - I know that families and work and schedules mean we are lucky if we get naked together once a week. And I know that's less sex than he'd like. It's less than I'd like, too, but I'm more the type who enjoys sex anytime it's on offer but can go a couple of weeks without feeling deprived. I also know he's in the mood for sexting and pics and that type of stuff way more than I am, and that's frustrating for him.

If he wanted to look for other partners, that would be ok with me. Even if it meant we had sex less, or not at all. I just can't stand the idea of losing him completely, of not even having him as a friend. But if he hid other partners from me, I don't think I could forgive that and stay friends. So, I just need reassurance that if he wants to see others, he'll be honest with me.

When I've brought it up in the past (last time was maybe a year ago) he's just done the knee-jerk "I don't want anybody but you". The thing is, I don't believe that. I mean, I believe he's not seeing anyone else, but I don't believe he couldn't ever even imagine wanting sex with anyone else. He's human. And I'm cool with that! I just... need less of the hollow "only you" reassurances, and more of the realistic "we will talk about everything" ones.

 

[OnceAndFuture]

As a hiker myself I'm almost (but I understand how serious it is) amused at the idea one could walk off a broken toe. Granted if you're out in the middle of nowhere you're going to have to do what you have to to get back to civilization, but modern medicine has advanced beyond the idea that "you can't do anything for a broken toe."

I guess the question I would ask is why you feel the need to act as Andy's physician/nurse at this point. I mean I'm dealing with The Signal's various running injuries, but at some level she realizes she's going to need to take care of herself by herself. Yes, I help her with various problems, but at the end of the day she's responsible for her own health and she wouldn't put me at risk over it. I dare say that two years on from a broken toe and when he's at a state where he is feeling no serious pain it's time for him to handle things. I mean maybe you want to wear the nurse's uniform occasionally...but NOT at the expense of your own health and stress levels, which does seem to be happening.

As for Dag I could suggest that your recent concerns about where your relationship is going are rolling into this. If you're not feeling you're connecting with him on this level, that you don't feel he is taking your stress about Andy's health seriously, that seems to fit in with your concerns about him not taking your relationship as a whole seriously. Perhaps that's part of the conversation.

 

[Cleo]

Me:I haven't been able to stop crying all day
Dag:Awwww babe
Me: I'm just exhausted, you know? I can't sleep. I get so scared life will never be normal again, that all of the plans and dreams will have to be abandoned, that it's just going to be a lifetime of doctors and surgeries and watching life pass us by.
Dag: yeah, I hear that...
Dag: I'm going to Target

Not even joking. I wish I was joking.

(

I have a tendency to fall for guys like this.
One of my exes... I used to send him long emails or texts about how I was feeling, vents and rants and panicky stuff, and he would not reply, and eventually I would ask him why he did not reply, and he'd say... "there was no question."

Current BF Bo... the first time I shared a panic attack with him, he said: "I don't know what to say, I don't really know what you want from me".

I have learned 2 things:
1) my partners show their concern and affection in other ways than I would like, but they do show it. Like when I was having a terribly stressfull week and venting to Bo about it and he never even responded or said I am so sorry you are having a hard time... and then after a couple of days he invited me to a a spa treatment with steam baths and massages "because you were so stressed".

2) I have to explicitly ASK for what I want. I cannot express my grief sadness stress panic and anxiety and expect my partners to say "Oh I am so sorry for you what can I do?"
I must say "can you help me think about how I can solve this issue that is causing me stress" / " can you tell me something you like about me so I will feel better about myself" / "will you plan a fun date with me so I have something to look forward to".

And then I go talk to my girlfriends for some commiseration.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

As a hiker myself I'm almost (but I understand how serious it is) amused at the idea one could walk off a broken toe. Granted if you're out in the middle of nowhere you're going to have to do what you have to to get back to civilization, but modern medicine has advanced beyond the idea that "you can't do anything for a broken toe."

All I can say is don't go to 11,000 feet hungover. The friend we were with is actually a professional - an environmental scientist who regularly camps up there for days at a time. But all of us were basically reduced to toddler brains by the altitude and the lingering alcohol. Water, food, water, water, food, water, water, water. One foot in front of the other was all we could handle. Well, obviously, we couldn't even handle that

I guess the question I would ask is why you feel the need to act as Andy's physician/nurse at this point. I mean I'm dealing with The Signal's various running injuries, but at some level she realizes she's going to need to take care of herself by herself. Yes, I help her with various problems, but at the end of the day she's responsible for her own health and she wouldn't put me at risk over it. I dare say that two years on from a broken toe and when he's at a state where he is feeling no serious pain it's time for him to handle things. I mean maybe you want to wear the nurse's uniform occasionally...but NOT at the expense of your own health and stress levels, which does seem to be happening.

I'm pretty sure Dag thinks the same thing

It's not like full time nurse duty, just after surgeries and such. Right now he can get around the house in the boot thing, but he's supposed to stay off it as much as possible, and no driving for a week. Last summer was the second surgery, and damn, that was brutal... Bed rest two weeks, knee scooter for six weeks, walking boot for a month after that. That was hard. This (knock wood) is just soft tissue stuff, should be over by the end of the week.

As for Dag I could suggest that your recent concerns about where your relationship is going are rolling into this. If you're not feeling you're connecting with him on this level, that you don't feel he is taking your stress about Andy's health seriously, that seems to fit in with your concerns about him not taking your relationship as a whole seriously. Perhaps that's part of the conversation.

Dag's way of taking this seriously is to back off and give me time to be there for Andy. As opposed to, pitching in, or at least coming to see me here. That's hard for me. It's like it creates a whole second stressor for me. I know he's just doing what he would want me to do if his wife were injured. But again, I'm stuck in that place of having to ask for what I need, and feeling like I can't... Like asking for anything is being high maintenance or troublesome.

And then I go talk to my girlfriends for some commiseration.

So much this.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

I'm feeling a lot better about things today

I was able to talk some with Dag about needing him around when I'm down - it was over text, so not the ideal conversation, but it helped. He gets nervous about asking for my time when I'm busy and stressed, which I get... But I needed to know he still *wants* to see me. We're doing lunch Thursday and date night Friday, so that gives me some good solid Dag time to look forward to. I know a big part of my stress is just not getting the amount of time I want with him. Less time makes me feel disconnected, feeling disconnected makes me feel insecure.

The "oh god we don't have enough sex and he's going to find someone else"... Yeah, haven't gotten up the nerve to broach that topic yet It's hard for me to sit down and write that email and not feel like I'm ambushing him. Even though I know he prefers that to being put on the spot in person. Just a disconnect in how we like to communicate, and ... ugh.

This is something I wrote on Reverie's blog...

Dag and I still get lots of alone time, Andy and I get lots of alone time, and Andy gets alone time with Steph and Anna-Louise. But our overall attitude is that if it's an adventure/activity type thing, everyone is welcome. Partners, friends, whoever wants to go. Alone time lately is more "we have the house to ourselves lets get naked" time Or grabbing lunch or a drink, or browsing the bookstore, or going for a walk.

We're all pretty busy, so there are plenty of times where, say, Dag and I come up with something fun to do, and we invite Andy but he's not free. Dag has an open invite to join us at the lake anytime we're up there, but he only makes it once in a while. Andy knows me well enough to know there are some things I just won't be interested in, so he plans that stuff with Steph. So we do get "couple adventures". But most Big Fun Things are open to everyone. It feels more comfortable to us, since that's how we've usually done it with friends.

Interesting right now because we have a couple of Big Things that aren't going to be group events.

One is Steph's daughter's college graduation - Andy is going for a long weekend with Steph, her best girlfriends, and assorted relatives. I didn't think about it until I re-read that post, but I didn't get an invite! Obviously it didn't bug me much, if it's only occurring to me now, weeks after they made plans. But I did go to her high school graduation, so, hmmm. I could probably tag along and no one would mind, but I don't particularly want to... Too many people I don't know well, too much schedule stress. (Of course everyone could see that coming, which is probably why I didn't get invited!)

The other big event on the calendar is the next Comic Con in June. Dag and I are going, and we'd planned on Andy coming, too ... But his foot is not up to walking and standing for 3 days straight I told Dag today that it would be just us, and he was really disappointed! Awwww. Sad and happy at the same time. I have, like, weird, almost compersion feelings about Dag and Andy being friends Andy says Dag is just pissed he won't have a baby-sitter for me if he wants to geek out on panels and while I'm not denying the possibility, I do think he was looking forward to all of us hanging out.

 

[nycindie]

I think it's hard for Dag to know how to respond because you do have two sides to how you want him to treat you. Nothing wrong with that - you're a multi-faceted human being, but if he is the kind of guy who sees things in black and white most of the time, I am sure he gets confused.

He might feel "damned if I do, damned if I don't" because you have those times when you are stressed and need to take care of yourself but DON'T want to get dressed up for a date, don't want him to try and fix things, and really need your ALONE time. You've been frustrated when he didn't understand you want to be left alone. Then here you are saying you wish he wouldn't distance himself when you're stressed.

Same thing with sex. You've said wish you didn't feel like your relationship with Dag is mostly about sex, and how relieved and delighted you are when you get together with him and do things besides go to a hotel and fuck. And now here you are saying you and he don't have enough sex.

I don't really have a solution, but if I were him, I'd be a bit frustrated and unsure about how to get it right. Just an observation. I hope it helps. Maybe you can figure out a way to express what you need without hoping he will intuitively know. Sort of like putting a little sign on the dishwasher that says "empty" or "full," you could have a signal that means "need closeness" or "need alone time."

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

He might feel "damned if I do, damned if I don't" because you have those times when you are stressed and need to take care of yourself but DON'T want to get dressed up for a date, don't want him to try and fix things, and really need your ALONE time. You've been frustrated when he didn't understand you want to be left alone. Then here you are saying you wish he wouldn't distance himself when you're stressed.

This is very true ...and I'm working on it What I really want is for him to be around when I'm stressed but *not* expect the dressed up dates, and *not* try to fix it But instead of communicating that, I get all "oh it's needy and demanding and too much work to ask for that stuff". And so I just tell him to leave me alone, and then get sad when he does. Sigh. I do see my role in this, trust me.

Same thing with sex. You've said wish you didn't feel like your relationship with Dag is mostly about sex, and how relieved and delighted you are when you get together with him and do things besides go to a hotel and fuck. And now here you are saying you and he don't have enough sex.

Well, I'm fine with us only having sex once a week, or once a month, or whatever. But when it's been a few days, he gets to this point where it's all he can talk about, when are we going to do it. So me not being ok with the amount of sex is solely from a "because if we don't have enough sex he'll dump me" place.

It basically all boils down to me feeling incredibly insecure in the relationship. I don't feel like I can ask for stuff... Or be less than happy-perky-cheerleader. I don't feel like he'll stick around if it's not fun and hot sex all the time.

When I try to get down to *why* I feel insecure, I just come back to not having any *real* commitment. He could replace me with some other girl with literally zero disruption to his life. And even though I know there's a million reasons for that - and hell, a lot of them are my reasons - it still leaves me feeling like I have no security.

Some days I feel like I'm so not cut out for this. Like I'd be happier if we'd never put the boyfriend - girlfriend label on it. Just kept it as friends who have sex if the mood strikes us. Because if we were still using condoms, and operating under the assumption that we are both free to sleep with whomever, I'd be like a billion times less concerned about this shit. One, there would be no "what if he cheats?" because sleeping with someone else wouldn't be cheating, or risk my health. Two, I'd feel more confident that he was spending with me because he wanted to, not because he had to if he wanted to get laid.

All this makes it sound like I'm miserable - I'm not. Mostly I'm happy with things. But there is a part of me that feels bothered by the fact that the words we use - relationship, together, commitment, girlfriend - don't match what we actually do - hang out a lot and have sex sometimes.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

As an addendum to the above post...

One thing I have learned from this relationship is that I will never again (well, never say never, but...) fluid bond with anyone besides a primary partner. It's more trust and commitment than I feel ok with in a non escalator situation. I've realized that without the tangible commitments - cohabitation, marriage, joint accounts, shared friends - I just don't feel secure about relationships.

It's funny, there's the whole cliche of the guy swearing he no longer has sex with his wife... Well, Dag went the other way, he assured me he and his wife were super happy and still had sex, when in reality, they hadn't in forever. I agreed to ditching the condoms because Andy+me+Dag+his wife was a tolerable risk for me. But knowing now that they *don't* have sex, I'm a little paranoid that if he doesn't get enough from me, he'll be on the hunt for new, unknown partners. Ugh.