Knowing Intellectually vs. Really Feeling

BonzaiBlitz

New member
Since my last thread, I've been in an intermittent state of deep introspection, trying to identify my feelings and maybe start to process them along the way.

Short version: I'm learning the difference between understanding a concept intellectually and experiencing it the hard way.

For example, when Bloom first suggested we open up, I started doing research.
I found many reasonable (if radical to the monogamous establishment) concepts, and agreed with their rationale.
For example:
1) No one person can reasonably be expected to meet all of another person's needs in a relationship.
Quite logical, and delving into the concept revealed that its opposite (the monogamous assumption) likely leads to much unnecessary stress in relationships.

2) Love is an unlimited resource.
Again, logical to the point of obviousness. OF COURSE it's an unlimited resource. Anyone who would think otherwise has turned it into a commodity in an environment of artificial scarcity and unnecessary competition.

I understood these concepts, and agreed with them almost immediately.
I didn't have to actually EXPERIENCE them until a few weeks ago, when my wife announced she finally had a boyfriend.

And suddenly, all the intellectual understanding and poly cheerleading just collapsed inward, along with my self-esteem.

1) My conscious mind understands that neither Bloom nor I should be expected to meet all of the other's needs.
But we set out to build a marriage that would last, and all (seemingly healthy) monogamous literature points to two people who stand alone against the world, meeting all of each other's needs and therefore not needing to look outside.
Thus, we've both grown away from our families, and relied only on each other for support.
Which was fine for a decade.
Problems between us were brought up immediately, and dealt with similiarly so.
But now that someone else IS meeting some of her needs, suddenly I feel diminished.
I feel less important in her life because she ISN'T looking to me for total support anymore, and I feel guilty asking her for support because she's having fun with the new relationship.

2) My conscious mind understands that love is an infinite resource.
But a harsh realization hit this past week that (in large part due to our situation described above).
I really don't have a support system outside of the marriage.
The two of us don't rely on our families (and REALLY couldn't rely on them for support regarding this situation), and haven't much noticed their general absence from our lives since we've been married.
Another PRIME factor in guides to maintaining a strong marriage is to grow a joint identity as a married couple.
I am her husband first and foremost (even superseding my life experiences before we got together), and she [was?] my wife first and foremost.
We were the "We'd LOVE a cornmeal body scrub!" couple.

Props if you get that reference.

But now?
It seems like jumping into poly is pulling us apart, forcing us to be lone individuals floating away from each other.
That pulling is taking chunks out of my self-confidence and my self-esteem, which is what tends to happen when the foundation of your identity starts to crack.

And I feel helpless to do anything about it.
Especially since I have yet to gain any real prospects in a new relationship of my own.

Bloom's in the throes of NRE, and I feel like I'm imploding emotionally, weighing her down when she should be taking flight into the adventure of this new relationship.


Thoughts?
 
Last edited:
I am sorry you struggle. I don't know if my POV could help you any.

But we set out to build a marriage that would last, and all (seemingly healthy) monogamous literature points to two people who stand alone against the world, meeting all of each other's needs and therefore not needing to look outside.

Books, movies, tv shows, etc encourage a "joined at the hip" enmeshment that is not actually healthy. Sounds like you bought into it some and are starting to come out from that and finding it challenging.

It seems like jumping into poly is pulling us apart, forcing us to be lone individuals floating away from each other.

You have always been (individuals.)

Marriage made you (individuals) AND (a couple.) Not (all couple).

In my marriage, there is

  • my stuff that only I deal in.
  • his stuff that only he deals in.
  • our stuff that we both deal in.

Bloom having a dating partner means she's doing her stuff that she deals in. It could be the dating partner, time with her friends, doing her hobbies, her things that you just are not involved in.

That doesn't mean she doesn't care about you. That doesn't mean you don't care about her. It just means you are not joined at the hip 24/7.

That pulling is taking chunks out of my self-confidence and my self-esteem, which is what tends to happen when the foundation of your identity starts to crack.

I think good self-esteem is being able to be proud of yourself doing self-honoring and self-respecting behavior. You can hold yourself in high regard.

If you sit around telling yourself yuck, kicking yourself while you are down? It is going to feel hard to feel proud of doing that behavior. Like you being your own self bully or something. :(

You existed before your marriage, dude. Your identity is not you being married to Bloom. The name of your internal newspaper is "BonzaiBlitz." Certainly your marriage has a section in the paper that reports how that is doing. Just like a regular paper has a weather section that reports how that is doing. But that one section is not the name of the whole newspaper.

You sitting around telling yourself that poly is "forcing you apart" is making you feel like yuck. Drama language.

You could be telling yourself that choosing to practice poly is causing you to recognize weak areas that before you could not see. Less dramatic language, more real-ness.

I really don't have a support system outside of the marriage.

Why is this? Because you were paying too much attention to doing "our stuff" and you neglected to do your "my stuff" layer? Rather than attend to all the things in balance?

You did not spend time with your own friends, doing your hobbies, being on your own? Making your own support system outside of marriage?

That is not poly pulling you apart. That is poly making you aware of where you weren't doing your stuff.

And I feel helpless to do anything about it.

Well, if you sit around telling yourself doom, that's not esp inspiring or esp encouraging.

You could tell yourself "I feel helpless right now. What could I do to help me feel more energetic or stimulated? What could I do to remind myself I have skills and I am competent?" rather than telling yourself "I am helpless. I cannot do anything."

Are you in the habit of "talking down" to yourself? :confused:

Especially since I have yet to gain any real prospects in a new relationship of my own.

Having a dating partner will not solve the issue of you not attending to your own stuff. It is not their job to do your stuff for you. It will also not solve your problem of learning to cope with your wife dating new people.

That's like me going "I cannot do my laundry because I don't have a BF. I cannot make plans with my friends because I don't have BF. I cannot sign up to take a class and make new friends because I don't have a BF. I cannot learn to cope with X until I have BF."

If anything, you might want to WAIT to date. Deal with your wife dating first. Because (dealing with your wife dating) plus (dealing with you navigating dating) plus (dealing with new open marriage in general) -- might be piling on too many new stressy things at once. Ever considered that?

Just because you are Open now doesn't mean your side of the V and her side of the V will magically match so that you both have other dating partners at the same time. Sometimes you might. Sometimes she will have other partners while you do not. Sometime you will while she doesn't. Sometimes you will want a dating break. Sometimes she will. Sometimes both might.

You both have the option to date other people now. You don't always have to be doing it 24/7. I have the option to drive my car. It's out there. But I'm not driving all day and night just cuz I have that option.

Bloom's in the throes of NRE, and I feel like I'm imploding emotionally, weighing her down when she should be taking flight into the adventure of this new relationship.

If she's gushing lalas at you? Tell her you are happy for her, but to please dial it down a bit around you. Like once a week is fine, not every minute of the day.

She's dealing with the new open thing on a whee! Like Track A.

You are dealing with the new open thing on a low. Like Track B.

Perhaps a visual aid helps.

http://www.eoslifework.co.uk/Images/fut1.gif

But really, it's a new gig for both of you, and each will have your growing pains and emotional ups and downs.

You could be telling yourself that the "old normal" is gone. That it will take some time to find the "new normal" and the transitional time in between is simply going to feel weird. Things feeling weird or up and down is NORMAL. Be ok being a person in transition.

It is ok to have some growing pains here. You guys are new to this.

Did you expect to be perfect at it right out the gate? :confused:

If you are dealing in poly hell things, ask for what you need from yourself, from her, and from outside help. Arrange to talk to a friend, secure a counselor... just someone not in this system.

And cut yourself a break. It sounds like you guys prepared, you guys wanted to go there, and you guys are in transition. Again...

It is OK for transition time to feel weird. You have not done it before. The old normal is gone, the new normal is not here yet. Be ok with that.

You can read many bread recipes. That doesn't mean you can DO baking. Knowledge of something is not experience of something. You will bake some "meh" kinda of loaves before you produce something good. That is HOW you get good at baking bread.

So right now? It's gonna be some "meh" kinda times before you have all the skills to weather out your partner dating a new person more smoothly. That is HOW you get good at dealing with your wife dating someone new.

Don't expect yourself to be perfect first time out. And don't think the whole marriage is doomed first time out either just because it's not super comfy right now.

There's being "comfortably uncomfortable" and then there's "UNCOMFORTABLE uncomfortable." Don't ADD to your burden with dramatic language/doom talk when it is not necessary. Strive to TAKE AWAY from your burden so you can weather out the growing pains.

Galagirl
 
Last edited:
I do feel a bit badly that you'd bought into the "poly cheerleading" nonsense & as a result got bit. I've been pushing back against it for decades, specifically because I've met so many people like you.

(It's always made me wonder whether "poly" people in general have ever faced up to any of these ACTUAL difficulties themselves or are just "gushing lalas" (as GalaGirl put it), or maybe get a sadistic thrill from watching noobs beat themselves up. :()

Nothing cheering comes up at the moment. Past GalaGirl's advice, I do have to alert you to a further scenario. Right now, Bloom is all energized, & you feel a bit as though you cannot rely upon your best friend to help you sort through your feelings. IME, it's not unlikely that when you get your individuality stabilized, & begin moving toward finding your own intimate friends, it is Bloom that will have a metldown; in many cases, it's the one who was all "damn the torpedoes!!" at the beginning that suddenly insists on all sorts of restrictions, even (likely impossible) returning to the "normalcy" of monogamy.
 
I do feel a bit badly that you'd bought into the "poly cheerleading" nonsense & as a result got bit. I've been pushing back against it for decades, specifically because I've met so many people like you.

(It's always made me wonder whether "poly" people in general have ever faced up to any of these ACTUAL difficulties themselves or are just "gushing lalas" (as GalaGirl put it), or maybe get a sadistic thrill from watching noobs beat themselves up. :(

Frankly, my reaction was virtually the opposite: that it sounds as if Bonzaiblitz bought into monogamy cheerleading and got bit. All of that stuff about how "strong marriages" are those in which people look only to each other and do everything together? Total bullhockey. But bullhockey which is forced down the throat of almost everyone with any connection to western romantic culture.

Bonzaiblitz, the two major problems I see in the scenario you're describing are both almost entirely traceable to the monogamy-cheerleading you've mentioned: first, that you are understandably reacting with the fear you have been trained to feel by a culture which views love as a scarcity commodity; and second, that because you have spent your entire marriage believing that you're supposed to have only one important person in your life -- in any capacity, not just romantic -- you've cut yourself off from other sources of comfort and support, so you're struggling without them.

I would do a few things in your situation:

-Ask your wife to dial it back. Not to change the way she's conducting her new relationship, I mean; but to change the way she's approaching talking about it around you. You are not the right person to hear her burblesquee right now. See if you can agree with her that she's welcome to her NRE and you want her to enjoy the time she spends with her boyfriend, but that when she is spending time with you, you would like to be the focus of her attention, and therefore you'd like the boyfriend not to be the topic of discussion most of the time.

-Start talking with your wife about what you two can do as a couple to revive your own sense of romance. If you're like most long-term couples, your own NRE has worn off and you're well into the companionate stage by now. One thing that a lot of poly families discover is that, when one partner gets a new partner, they're inspired by that NRE to renew the passion in their original relationship as well... so see if perhaps you can encourage your wife to move with you in that direction?

-Find your own people. Not necessarily a romantic partner, but you need something that is not about your wife. Right now, it sounds as if there are two options for how things happen at your place: either you and your wife are doing something together, or she is off with her boyfriend and you are sitting at home moping. (Yeah, I know I'm exaggerating here, but that's at least the general idea.) That's not good for anybody, whether they're poly or not. If you and your wife were 100% monogamous, but she had a regular activity she loved -- let's say she did community theater and threw herself with delight into each new play -- and you didn't, and sat at home moping when she was out at rehearsals? You'd be feeling pretty darn close to the same way you feel now.

So stop doing it that way. Figure out something you want to learn, do, try, participate in, experiment with... Google where and how to do that thing in your area, and then go out and DO it. If you find that you don't like it after all, try another one. But you need a Thing to do which is not dependent upon your wife, and you need people, friends, who are close to you as an individual and don't require your wife's presence to spend time with or talk to.

That does not, incidentally, mean that they can't be friends of your wife's as well. They just can't be the sort of people who only socialize as a couple with other couples. One of my best friends is, unsurprisingly, also one of my husband's best friends. We sometimes socialize all together, but just as often, I go to see her on my own when my husband is doing something else; or he goes to see her on his own when I'm doing something else. And I can talk to her in confidence and get sympathy and wise counsel, even about things which are going wonky with him. I'm sure he does the same about me, but I never hear about it, because that's the way she is.

So look for an activity which is yours-singular and not yours-coupled. Then, within it, look for friends who are yours-singular and not yours-coupled, if you don't currently have friends who are capable of treating you as an individual rather than as Bloom's Husband.

And consider what it would take to put down all these maxims you've been taught about what a "strong marriage" entails. They're nonsense. It's not that you can't build a strong marriage out of them, but you can build a strong marriage out of any way of interacting which is respectful, caring, and meets each other's needs. The scare stories which tell you that they know the One True Way to have a strong marriage are probably what the sources believe, but they aren't true.
 
Hi

Wifey does need to be more understanding.. your not telling her to stop. She just needs to mind your feelings right now and fast! She should be able to process that order just fine if she does care for you. If you guys are good friends she can have her nre and be able to be your friend too.... You have a need right now. And as a good hinge Let's see how she does?
Ravenscroft has his Great experience ... So mind what he shared!
Also.... Lean Very heavily on your hobbies.. And whatever gives you peace of mind spiritually!
Be willing to do for you ... Whatever, in the right context for you, whatever you need... Search for family, friends, fwb, lovers, mistress... However/whatever you need.
Again Be willing to do for You!
I see a great wide open road of possibilities for You.
Enjoy ...it's there for you..
Read and take to heart what the great the beautiful Bluebird shares when/if ; ) she does.. Lol
 
Last edited:
Definitely work on your co-dependency by exploring individual hobbies and interests. My husband DarkKnight is involved with community theater and a local chorale. PunkRock does gaming leagues and paints. They're used to heading off without me and doing their own things. It makes them interesting, well-rounded people. :)
 
This happens quite a lot. There are people who can understand it on an intellectual level, yet put into practice, it can be tough, if not impossible to reconcile. It doesn't mean that anyone is any more enlightened than the other. Much like a heterosexual man/woman can understand why some people are gay, but can't engage in it themselves. You're not brainwashed or duped by society (which is an extremely offensive suggestion btw), you're just you. You can either find a way to be comfortable with it or not, but don't torture yourself trying to squeeze into something you're not.

Something I feel needs to be touched on because it keeps getting thrown in like some sort of "obvious truth", is the notion that love is infinite/unlimited. Sure, it sounds poetic & romantic, but it's a lot more complex than that. While most people don't want to admit that giving love to one, takes it from another because they think it makes them appear callous, it's absolutely the truth. And for all the talk about human nature, we cannot avoid the reality that life is filled with competition and compromise. Even if it were true that love is infinite, our ability to experience it isn't. While we all have different capabilities, we can all only experience so much love at once. Think of love like water, and we're like a pump... only so much water can be pumped at any given time. It doesn't matter if we're pumping from a puddle, swimming pool, or the Pacific Ocean, the flow rate is the same.

As for society, the biggest issue taken with this assumption, is that it essentially makes the claim that people are too stupid to decide what works for them. Sure, society is predominantly mono, but it's not because of societal pressures to be, it's actually the reverse. More people just happen to want monogamy, and society adjusted to it. Society has never been the dictator, society is the product.
 
I think you are buying into #1 too much. Being with someone else doesn't mean your wife had some empty void you couldn't fill. I think you are concentrating too much on that fallacy. I think that a lot of mono people use that to try to cope with moving into non-monogamy. That is what is biting you on the ass, this feeling that this other guy can somehow fulfill her and you can't.

I think you are finding out that your romanticized version of monogamy is not healthy at all. Two against the world? For ten years? It's definitely time to get out of your rut and start doing some other stuff, whether you are monogamous or not.

The part about you not having any immediate prospects while she is already dating is pretty common. LOL...I remember when we first opened up my wife had unlimited prospects. I had none for awhile. Then, in the blink of an eye I had several. Just work on you and the rest will happen when it happens.
 
This happens quite a lot. There are people who can understand it on an intellectual level, yet put into practice, it can be tough, if not impossible to reconcile. It doesn't mean that anyone is any more enlightened than the other. Much like a heterosexual man/woman can understand why some people are gay, but can't engage in it themselves. You're not brainwashed or duped by society (which is an extremely offensive suggestion btw), you're just you. You can either find a way to be comfortable with it or not, but don't torture yourself trying to squeeze into something you're not.

Something I feel needs to be touched on because it keeps getting thrown in like some sort of "obvious truth", is the notion that love is infinite/unlimited. Sure, it sounds poetic & romantic, but it's a lot more complex than that. While most people don't want to admit that giving love to one, takes it from another because they think it makes them appear callous, it's absolutely the truth. And for all the talk about human nature, we cannot avoid the reality that life is filled with competition and compromise. Even if it were true that love is infinite, our ability to experience it isn't. While we all have different capabilities, we can all only experience so much love at once. Think of love like water, and we're like a pump... only so much water can be pumped at any given time. It doesn't matter if we're pumping from a puddle, swimming pool, or the Pacific Ocean, the flow rate is the same.

As for society, the biggest issue taken with this assumption, is that it essentially makes the claim that people are too stupid to decide what works for them. Sure, society is predominantly mono, but it's not because of societal pressures to be, it's actually the reverse. More people just happen to want monogamy, and society adjusted to it. Society has never been the dictator, society is the product.

OP, in case you haven't guessed, this is the anti-poly perspective :rolleyes:
 
CTF said:
You're not brainwashed or duped by society (which is an extremely offensive suggestion btw), you're just you. You can either find a way to be comfortable with it or not, but don't torture yourself trying to squeeze into something you're not.

I am not suggesting someone is "brainwashed" if they choose to practice monogamy. People can certainly pick the models they like best that work for them. Mono, poly, etc. I agree that one should not try to squeeze themselves into something they are not.

I am saying that enmeshment is not healthy. A lot of tv, books, and movies promote the idea that it is "romantic" for couples to be joined at the hip like "two hearts beating as one" or something. I disagree that it is romantic. I think enmeshment has problems.

BonzaiBlitz, you have chosen to try open/poly. If later you find it is not for you? Stop doing it.

But we set out to build a marriage that would last, and all (seemingly healthy) monogamous literature points to two people who stand alone against the world, meeting all of each other's needs and therefore not needing to look outside. Thus, we've both grown away from our families, and relied only on each other for support.

However your romantic life plays out?

I think you may have to consider letting go of the idea that a "strong marriage" means being off in some kind of 2 people bubble like "us vs the world" and isolating yourselves from others and meeting all each other's needs.

It's ok if in the end you only want each other for romantic partners. That part is fine.

But you just cannot live "joined at the hip." I don't think that part is ok. This kind of enmeshment is not romantic or healthy. You could think about bringing better balance and better health to the marriage than that.

After all, you each probably have to go to work. You each probably have to do your share of the chores -- groceries, bank, post office, etc. I would guess that you guys have a dentist to do your cleanings. You don't do that for each other and meet each other's dental hygiene needs, right?

You each have to be with other people and interact with them out in the world sometimes. Not hermit yourselves off.

I would hope you guys EACH have friends to socialize with, hobbies, interests. The things that make you EACH a healthy, well rounded person to be with.

If you were together all day long joined at the hip all cooped up in the bubble... what would you have to talk about at the end of the day? :confused:

If one of you got REALLY sick, who would come to help you if you have isolated yourselves completely from friends and family that might assist? :confused:

Whatever relationship model you ultimately practice for your romance(s)?

I think you could think about what "well balanced living" and what a "well balanced marriage" might look like to you.

Galagirl
 
Last edited:
Actually, what GalaGirl says is (as usual) spot-on, but it stirs up some interesting thoughts.

I have never recommended Open Marriage by the O'Neills, but in this situation it's highly relevant. Before the whole thing got confused by discussion of multiple sexual partners, the book itself is actually a pretty good explanation of how Monogamism has brainwashed people into thinking they NEED to give up their individuality in order to build a strong couple, & makes the case that the best thing for a couple is actually to be the best individuals possible, which often involves have social lives & avocations that run off in different directions. Their meaning of "open marriage" was in opposition to the walled-off rugged-individualist "nuclear family" being touted increasingly in the pop-psych of the '50s & '60s. They saw where this "closed marriage" stuff was only going to result in ever-increasing failure of marriage.

IMO, people NEED community. The only real failing of Open Marriage is that they didn't go further, maybe describing how community might be built if people could stop being so affected by the paranoid need for couples to wall themselves off from the world.
 
OP, in case you haven't guessed, this is the anti-poly perspective :rolleyes:

Not so much "anti-poly", but rather pointing out a couple of flaws when it comes to human interaction & relationships. If fewer people would quit sugar coating everything with fallacies about "infinite love", and claiming that partner A is "still enough" despite wanting to fuck someone else, then at least everyone can approach this with a sense of honesty.
 
I am not suggesting someone is "brainwashed" if they choose to practice monogamy. People can certainly pick the models they like best that work for them. Mono, poly, etc. I agree that one should not try to squeeze themselves into something they are not.

I am saying that enmeshment is not healthy. A lot of tv, books, and movies promote the idea that it is "romantic" for couples to be joined at the hip like "two hearts beating as one" or something. I disagree that it is romantic. I think enmeshment has problems.


I wasn't suggesting that you said that. In fact, of everyone here, you tend to be the most empathetic towards the struggling monos.

That being said, I can't count how many times I see people assert that monogamy is simply a construct that people enter just because it goes with the flow. Hell, I've heard everything from brainwashed, to unnatural, and everything in between.

As for the suggestion that the individual is more important than the couple... This is not a healthy attitude. I'm not saying that the individual is less important, but in a truly healthy situation, they're as equal as can be. If you're not going to respect your partner as much as yourself, then you don't belong in a relationship.
 
I agree with GalaGirl.

When I met my now-ex-husband, we were living in different states. So I moved here to be with him, and immediately started a really demanding job. I never really made any close friends. We had a hobby we both enjoyed, and some people we socialized with through that, but I didn't take the opportunity to form separate relationships with any of them. It didn't seem necessary, because my hubby was my best friend and so wonderful, and I'm kind of an introvert, so that seemed like enough.

Fast forward 11 years: hubby and I were in a rut. I'd lost interest in our mutual hobby, which caused distance between us. I began to struggle with depression from the demanding job, and hubby didn't get it. I felt incredibly alone. Hubby lost a lot of respect for me. We split.

After we split, I was lucky to find a group of friends and had a great time really getting to know them, and doing all sorts of platonic activities with them. I became a better, more well-rounded, more confident person because of them. I strongly suspect that if I'd made more connections outside my marriage, I'd have become that better person while still married, and the marriage wouldn't have ended.

Poly, to me, is just one possible way to keep forming new connections as an adult. I don't think the poly part is critical, but it does make it easier to get past the roadblocks that make it hard to form new friendships as an adult. And I do think that making new connections is critical to a happy life, and possibly to the continued success of existing relationships. They give you new perspectives on things, encourage you to try new activities, and generally expand your world. Being in one tiny bubble your whole life would get kind of boring, wouldn't it, even if it's a great bubble?
 
Not so much "anti-poly", but rather pointing out a couple of flaws when it comes to human interaction & relationships. If fewer people would quit sugar coating everything with fallacies about "infinite love", and claiming that partner A is "still enough" despite wanting to fuck someone else, then at least everyone can approach this with a sense of honesty.

Except neither of those are fallacies. Do you have children? Do you think parents turn off the love for one child so they can love another? It's the same thing. Granted, most people have a limit as to how much time and energy they can invest into other relationships but that is only a limitation to how many relationships one can have. It's certainly not a limitation to how many people one can love.

If you base your self worth on whether someone thinks you are the only person they need to fuck, that's fine. That seems a little shallow to me.

I don't think there is anything wrong with choosing monogamy. It's just not a choice I would make for myself. I've been both and poly just suits me better.
 
Not exactly parallel, but maybe helpful...

Hubby and I have always lived pretty separate lives, even while married. As in, more nights spent sleeping in separate beds than together. He works on the railroad and I was in school. Finished school in February and have been travelling ever since.

While in school, at least, I was available most of the time by phone. We'd talk a lot. While travelling, I was often in extremely different time zones and we'd be lucky to catch 15 minutes when one of us was waking up and the other going to bed. So during that time, Hubby started to get lonely. I was obviously too busy gallivanting around the world to have time for things like being lonely. Total lie, but I was at least busy enough not to be bothered more than occasionally.

So it was during this time that my long-time "I'm not poly, my wife is" husband actually met someone. Granted it was a D/s relationship, not actually romantic, but same difference really. I came back from my travels and realised the scope of it. He'd told me about her, and that he was "helping" her, but I didn't realise how much they talk and text and time they spent together until I got back. He admittedly didn't realise how "involved" they'd grown beyond the "just play" he thought of it as.

So here I was, 11 years into a poly relationship, and having to go from "Knowing Intellectually" to "Really Feeling" very quickly. And not only that, but I had this added pressure I was putting on myself. I'm a "veteran" of this poly stuff. I lead my local polyamory discussion groups for Pete's sake! So not only am I feeling the same insecurity feelings that are normal for any human being confronted with a new and different social situation... but I'm beating myself up for feeling them because I'm "supposed to" be "past" all that. What a load of horseshit if I ever heard it. And I knew it was horseshit. So then, are you ready? Because why not. Then I got to "meta-bully" myself. I was beating myself up for beating myself up.

Luckily it pretty much stopped there. I realised what I was doing and gave myself a break. I gave myself permission to just feel whatever insecurities were coming up. I acknowledged intellectually that social acceptance was a critical component of human evolution, and that fear of rejection is a very instinctive and irrational thing. I expressed them to my husband, but not before reminding him that I was owning them 100% and they were mine to deal with, but just checking in and letting him know where I was at. And he laughed! Why? Because he's an internal processor, the quiet type. So he was laughing because I was vocalising everything he'd gone through privately when I'd started dating all those years ago.

It's true about hobbies though. Now that I'm done travelling, I'm finding I'm not sure what to do with my free time. So we're in that boat together!
 
Except neither of those are fallacies. Do you have children? Do you think parents turn off the love for one child so they can love another? It's the same thing. Granted, most people have a limit as to how much time and energy they can invest into other relationships but that is only a limitation to how many relationships one can have. It's certainly not a limitation to how many people one can love.

If you base your self worth on whether someone thinks you are the only person they need to fuck, that's fine. That seems a little shallow to me.

I don't think there is anything wrong with choosing monogamy. It's just not a choice I would make for myself. I've been both and poly just suits me better.

Of course they're fallacies. Do parents turn off love for one child to love another? Of course not, but the love is divided between the children. I never said one can't love multiple people at once, but the more people loved, the more that love is diminished among them. Most won't admit it, but it doesn't make it any less true.

Now, J wouldn't say that it's entirely what I would base ones worth on, and let's be honest, sex isn't a real "need" for anyone... but yeah, the more people in that network, the less value any one individual holds.

And there's nothing wrong with choosing poly either. I seriously don't care what consenting adults do with their lives. Unfortunately, there are way too many circumstances where one torments him/herself because they think they want, so desperately to believe the talking points. If the poly partner was just honest about him/her not being enough (which is true by sheer definition), then it could save years of heartache by virtue of moving forward in whatever direction necessary.
 
Of course they're fallacies. Do parents turn off love for one child to love another? Of course not, but the love is divided between the children. I never said one can't love multiple people at once, but the more people loved, the more that love is diminished among them. Most won't admit it, but it doesn't make it any less true.

Now, J wouldn't say that it's entirely what I would base ones worth on, and let's be honest, sex isn't a real "need" for anyone... but yeah, the more people in that network, the less value any one individual holds.

And there's nothing wrong with choosing poly either. I seriously don't care what consenting adults do with their lives. Unfortunately, there are way too many circumstances where one torments him/herself because they think they want, so desperately to believe the talking points. If the poly partner was just honest about him/her not being enough (which is true by sheer definition), then it could save years of heartache by virtue of moving forward in whatever direction necessary.

You have failed to convince me that my experiences have been the opposite of reality.

Basically, you are taking your feelings and trying to make them the reality for everyone. Since you can't feel love for more than one person, you assume nobody can. I at least concede that some people aren't capable of poly.

Perhaps my view of "enough" is different than yours. I don't see people as "enough" or "not enough". I just see the people in my life as the people in my life. Yours is an interesting concept, but hard for me to relate to.
 
I really can't relate to CTF's ideas about love and value of people. I love many people in my life. Me having a friend doesn't make my child less valuable for me, or having a husband doesn't make my sister less valuable. And a friend becoming a lover doesn't really change their value for me, nor change how I value my husband.

For me love is not something I have and can give away. Love is something that is created together with someone. Therefore it's different with every person I have in my life. Love for person A is not taken away from love for person B (or C or D or E). Of course the different relationships do affect each other. Having a second child makes you see the first one differently, and it changes the relationship. But it's not LESS. It can even be MORE.
 
...Think of love like water, and we're like a pump... only so much water can be pumped at any given time. It doesn't matter if we're pumping from a puddle, swimming pool, or the Pacific Ocean, the flow rate is the same.

OK, going with the love as water analogy - you might be interested in YAH's post on her outside blog On analogies and love - she is a self-described struggling mono in a mono/poly relationship - interestingly in her analogy "pendulum vs. fountain", the water analogy attempts to clarify the poly position.

Perhaps, as you have suggested, the "flow" of love is limited by the pump. However that pump is on ALL of the time. And no one person is going to stand at that pump and immediately use all of the water instantaneously - you can't drink that fast. So you use that water to "filll things (i.e. put your emotional resources and time into building relationships) - some people fill lots and lots of "buckets" and one swimming pool (a married person with lots of casual friends for instance). Some of us prefer only swimming pools, but a few of them - or a swimming pool AND a hot tub:p).

Regardless of your preference, the "love" keeps flowing. At some point even the largest swimming pool is full. :)D -
While we all have different capabilities, we can all only experience so much love at once.
(Assuming the pool/person is healthy and not leaking out water/love faster than it can go in - that's a different problem, and the pool has to be fixed before you can put any more water into it.)

Sure, sometimes one of the buckets spills a little, water evaporates from the pool - you periodically have to "top them off" (relationship maintenance - "dating" your spouse, remembering the little things, getting together with your friends, etc.) But when all of a person's buckets/pools are full? You can either let the open hose run and all of that water just tickles off to nowhere, or you can start filling something else.

...As for the suggestion that the individual is more important than the couple... This is not a healthy attitude. I'm not saying that the individual is less important, but in a truly healthy situation, they're as equal as can be. If you're not going to respect your partner as much as yourself, then you don't belong in a relationship.

I agree with GalaGirl - the relationship can only be as healthy as the people in it. You can respect your partner 100% and still respect yourself 100%. It is important that you take care of yourself so that you can bring your whole, healthy self to a relationship. If you are 100% respecting your partner, and place the "relationship" on such a pedestal that you sacrifice your own self-respect/health - you are trying to build a house on shifting sand.


Of course they're fallacies. Do parents turn off love for one child to love another? Of course not, but the love is divided between the children. I never said one can't love multiple people at once, but the more people loved, the more that love is diminished among them. Most won't admit it, but it doesn't make it any less true.

Back to the water analogy - I personally don't have the emotional energy (water-fllow) to build and maintain relationships with more than a very few people (I am an introvert and need LOTS of time to recharge - socialization is exhasting!) I chose to spend that energy on my husband, my boyfriend, and my best friend. That's it. I DON'T spend a lot of time/energy/love/water on other friendships (get together a few times a year) or on my family of origin (holidays and family camp) - not because these people aren't great/awesome (they totally are!) but because those buckets stay full for LONG stretches of time without spilling.

So I do get what you are saying, but, to address the kid analogy - I think that most people, when they have a second child DON'T actually take energy/water/love away from the first child - they tend to take it from the fringes - outside friendships or extended family. They take it from THEMSELVES - dropping hobbies, not "letting" themselves do things that they enjoy. They ALSO tend to take it from their spouse - who is doing the same thing; which is why, in my opinion, so many marriages hit rocky times when the kids are young.

(But take that all with a grain of salt - I personally don't have kids.)
 
Last edited:
Back
Top