Need some advice for my first real negotiating meeting

[Cleo]

My husband and I have been together for almost 2 decades, opened our marriage a couple of years ago. Right now we seem to have a reached (after a particularly drama-filled summer) a new place of relative calm, where we both have our other relationships and also get along really well together.

However, the past months have taught me that the way we go about negotiating, discussing rules & boundaries, etc. is not exactly ideal. For instance, we often seem to do this after an evening of drinks, or when one of us comes home and is emotional, or right after a fight, etc.

So about a month ago we set a date for a 'meeting' which will take place next week where we will sit down, without wine to discuss in a business like manner where we stand, what our expectations are, possible new rules, stretching boundaries. My husband is a bit flippant about it, but I actually have a couple of things that I want to discuss that are new, and will possibly freak him out.
One of them is that I want him to think about the possibility of my BF spending the night with us, on occasion. (he lives in another city and lives alone, which means I always go and see him, but I would love to have him visit my city every now and then, meet my friends, hang out, and then be able to spend the night at my house). I haven't really thought about the logistics yet (like, who I would sleep with on these nights - or if maybe we should all 3 sleep in different bedrooms?).

Any advice how I can bring these sensitive things up? I should probably add there is no way that I would ever be ok with my husbands GF spending the night while I was in the house. But to me this is very much related to her as a person. (she cheated on my husband - they broke up and only just got back together). I could see me having no problems with another woman spending the night - though maybe I'm just thinking this because its hypothetical?
How can I bring this up with my husband and let him think about it rationally without him getting defensive or going 'ok then I want this too?' or am I being naive, in wanting something I'm not (right now) prepared to give him?

Should also add that he has met the BF a couple of times and likes him - they even had coffee together one day without me.

 

[gomugirl1656]

Hey Cleo

I just wrote about negotiation on my blog. These are the things we keep in mind ourselves it may be helpful your you. Been poly and married 13+ years we are happy and it's working. Also check out the post on Fighting vs P/S communication. The link to my blog is in my sig. Good luck.

 

[SchrodingersCat]

If your husband has forgiven the cheating, do you think it's helpful for you to hold a grudge?

You don't have to like your husband's girlfriend, you don't have to spend time with her. But if you're going to expect your husband to approve of your boyfriend staying a night in your house, then it seems only right that he should have the same privilege. I'm big on "What's good for the goose is good for the gander," provided the goose and gander actually want the same thing.

As for how to bring it up, I think you're right that just taking alcohol and reactive emotions out of the picture will help a lot. The exact wording isn't important as long as you're being supportive and open-minded. Remember to let him speak his feelings without judgement. But also, be prepared that he may not agree to your request, especially if you're not willing to return the favour. In other words, don't get too attached to that outcome because you could end up mad if he says no, and then the discussion may spiral downward from there.

 

[GalaGirl]

Treat it like a business meeting.

You seem to have set the appointment date.

Send the agenda for points needing covering. Over email maybe? Then he has time to prepare and not be blindsided. Does he have agenda things to bring up? Are they best served at THIS meeting or does he need to be given an opportunity for a separate but equal meeting? Then he is also having opportunity for his own air time for his own things.

Then navigate it rationally. This is not a conflict, but a negotiation.

http://www.mindtools.com/CommSkll/NegotiationSkills.htm

If someone emotionally floods, adjourn and plan to continue business meeting later, and TLC the flooded person.

You already know you are not up for his GF spending night as a trade. Expect he will bring that up. What would have to happen for that to BECOME a "tradeable" for you? Think those sorts of things out.

Think also where else it could go. What is the goal here? BF to visit you in your city? Or BF to visit you in your city AND stay in your house while visiting?

That's 2 different things.

GG

 

[Anneintherain]

I would probably go with an email too, tell him I'm sending an email with bullet points I want to cover, and including a few topics we haven't discussed before, or that were sources of conflict in the past. Probably send it 2-3 days beforehand, and say I don't want to discuss it until our meeting, but that I wanted him to have a chance to think about the topics before the meeting.

I'd encourage him to send me a list of bullet points he'd like to discuss if there is anything not on the list that he'd like me to think about ahead of time too.

I'd be clear that we wouldn't discuss anything until the meeting.

Err, and I'd make sure not to drink in those 2-3 days and go to bed early to stay out of impromptu late night talks!

Really this is because I don't like things sprung on me, I like having a bit of time at least to think about things. Adam usually doesn't have anything he wants to talk about unless he's prompted, so I'd also hope the bullet points would stir up if there was anything he wanted to bring up.

I also dont see a problem with a double standard of who stays over. People I don't like wont stay in my house while I'm home. People who negatively affect my life don't stay over in my house while I'm home. Your bf doesn't live that close, and it sucks to be the one doing all the travel. I would have a few options available to suggest to your husband
bf stays over on nights your husband stays elsewhere
bf stays over and you agree to curtail all potential noise making activities past X pm so your husband can relax and not worry every noise he hears is you thumping against a headboard
your husband agrees he stays over on a night he has plans elsewhere, your date ends at X pm and you go sleep with your husband and your bf sleeps alone.
bf spends a night or two over first and sleeps separately but spends a bit more time getting to know your husband (if they both want to or think that would make it easier) before staying over and sleeping with you. I think the offer to all sleep in different rooms is a great one because it shows your concern isn't being able to get busy in a more convenient way.

now that I write all that out, maybe less is more...I tend to have too many options for my dear husband sometimes...

 

[SchrodingersCat]

I have to pipe in. I have a very difficult time putting off discussions. If something's bothering me, it will eat away at me until I deal with it.

If I was on the receiving end of an email that said "We have something really serious to talk about, it's about __this__, but we can't say peep about it for three days" then I would spend three days worrying about what's going to happen at that meeting. I admit, I have mild anxiety and tend to worry more than I need to, but this approach would not work at all for me.

That being said, the fact that your husband and you agreed to this talk some time ago, it doesn't sound like you guys suffer from my disposition.

 

[Anneintherain]

Don't think anybody (I at least wasnt) suggesting anything like saying there was "something serious" to talk about then not addressing it, just to send a list of talking points so there's no surprises (and I would've included *talk about possibility of overnights with Brian at our house in the list, I wouldn't be vague. If I wrote a list of topics and my husband wanted to talk about one of them sooner than our appointment, I'd make time, but I'm the impatient one in our household.

Of course if something is important or vital I'd talk about it ASAP. Then again I couldn't put off even a normal conversation for more than a few days, which is why we make sure to schedule 2 days a week at home so if something comes up we can talk about it.

 

[swadvice]

Good you have set a meeting for clear thoughtful discussions. The outcome depends on several factors but mostly on a calm loving discussion with lots of listening. His feelings of security and comfort in your relationship and his is a big one.

Does he enjoy knowing of your romantic encounters? If so that could be a double bonus. If not then it could become a give and take discussion. This is a big step for all 3 (or more) of you. My advice is to listen to his reaction before you push too hard to sell the idea. He may surprise you and want to simple give you this added benefit (compersion) the act of receiving pleasure from giving your significant other the freedom of pleasure with another.

Ooop, gotta run... more another time.
Love to all
Susan

 

[SchrodingersCat]

Don't think anybody (I at least wasnt) suggesting anything like saying there was "something serious" to talk about then not addressing it, just to send a list of talking points so there's no surprises (and I would've included *talk about possibility of overnights with Brian at our house in the list, I wouldn't be vague.

Other than wording, I don't see the difference. When I said "it's about __this__," "__this__" meant "the possibility of overnights with Brian at our house."

How do you bullet point "I want my boyfriend to sleep-over" and then expect him not to want to discuss it right away? My understanding was that they'd set this appointment so far ahead because they weren't available for a long discussion any sooner. Otherwise, why not set the discussion appointment for the first available time?

Her help request was that she didn't know how to bring it up, knowing it was a sensitive topic for him. In my opinion, bringing it up as a talking point for a discussion days away is not the most compassionate way to introduce a sensitive topic. I still believe that it sets him up for a few days of anxiety, waiting for this discussion appointment.

I do understand your point about giving him time to think about it before hand. But there's the chance he'll take that time to become more and more opposed to the idea, without seeing it through her eyes. Not necessarily, of course.

It depends on how he processes things, whether he's generally open-minded, whether he's skilled at looking at issues from multiple points of view, whether he's generally an anxious vs laid-back person, if he processes things quickly or takes more time to think them out... Without more information on her husband in particular, it's impossible for either one of us to know which approach is better.

 

[Anneintherain]

How do you bullet point "I want my boyfriend to sleep-over" and then expect him not to want to discuss it right away?

Her help request was that she didn't know how to bring it up, knowing it was a sensitive topic for him. In my opinion, bringing it up as a talking point for a discussion days away is not the most compassionate way to introduce a sensitive topic. I still believe that it sets him up for a few days of anxiety, waiting for this discussion appointment.

I on the other hand, got the idea that they set the meeting so far ahead because there wasn't anything pressing that needed to be discussed. Putting "*want to talk about my gf staying over sometime" in an email to me would be OK with me, because I OFTEN freak out on hearing new info for a couple of minutes, process it, then I'm fine. I'd rather do that bit beforehand than face to face, because it makes my husband associate telling me what he wants with me being sad or thinking I "can't handle it", instead of remembering if we fast forward 5 minutes everything is fine. Obviously that wouldn't work for you, so I imagine your partners wouldn't do that.

I did not hear her say it was a sensitive topic for him just that
1."we haven't talked about it before and so I feel super awkward bringing it up, and I think he may freak out since it's unexplored territory"
2. how do I bring it up if I am not comfortable with his gf staying over too?
#1 is very familiar to me since I always worry my husband will freak out when I bring up new stuff, but it's almost always just the worry in my head.

My boyfriend fell asleep at the end of our date last week and I was worried about him driving home all groggy. He said he'd just go check into a motel on the way home if he needed, so I had to reiterate it was fine if he ever needed to stay, but afterwards I revisited the subject with my husband since we hadn't discussed "if Brian gets tired and driving home would be less than ideal it is still OK if he spends the night" for 6 months. I wanted to reconfirm it'd be fine for me to sleep with him if that happened. They've only spent 3 minutes in the same room ever, so though it's not a sensitive topic now since we did already discuss it, it's still awkward. I remember how nervous I was to ask about it the first time.

If she had said this was touchy subject between them I wouldn't suggest sending an email list, because you're right, that's not compassionate. If she did think her husband would respond negatively to something like that, making sure there was an hour or two free that night to talk about it would make sense. Then again that's why we have 2x a week together here, if I have things I want to discuss I write them on a notepad as I think of them and we go over them that same week.. Obviously the same communication style doesn't work for everybody, but that isn't going to stop me from giving suggestions on what works for me, I'm sure Cleo can take what she wants and leave the rest.

 

[SchrodingersCat]

I did not hear her say it was a sensitive topic for him

Any advice how I can bring these sensitive things up?

She didn't specify that it was sensitive "for him" but she called it sensitive in general, which I interpreted as meaning for him...

But now I'm just nitpicking for no particular reason. I think we're on the same page in terms of sculpting the delivery to fit the recipient. Cleo has lots of options now, and a variation on one of them should be suitable for her situation.

 

[Cleo]

thanks all, for your input! I really appreciate it... the reason I haven't been back to this thread is that before the planned Talk with my husband, I'm visiting my BF (haven't seen him in almost 2 months) and I have some serious stuff to discuss with him too, about boundaries / communication / intimacy. And I'm finding it hard to prep for 2 potentially difficult relationship conversations at once Poly is hard work sometimes!

More later.

 

[AggieSez]

Hi, Cleo

Just curious -- is this meeting only between you and your husband? Or will your other partners also be involved? It sounds like your additional relationships are pretty well established; they're not brand-new or casual. If you and your husband are basically negotiating aspects of your relationships that will directly affect your additional partners, it would be fair and respectful for them to have their own direct voice in those negotiations. It's their relationship, too.

 

[SchrodingersCat]

If you and your husband are basically negotiating aspects of your relationships that will directly affect your additional partners, it would be fair and respectful for them to have their own direct voice in those negotiations. It's their relationship, too.

While I see your point, that one couple should not negotiate boundaries for another couple, I disagree on this particular point. This is about whether a certain person is allowed to sleep in someone's home.

Your home needs to be a safe place. If you would feel put out or uncomfortable by having someone in your house, then that person's desire to be in your house is irrelevant. It's your house, not theirs.

 

[Cleo]

Hi, Cleo

Just curious -- is this meeting only between you and your husband? Or will your other partners also be involved? It sounds like your additional relationships are pretty well established; they're not brand-new or casual. If you and your husband are basically negotiating aspects of your relationships that will directly affect your additional partners, it would be fair and respectful for them to have their own direct voice in those negotiations. It's their relationship, too.

we don't really do things that way... I talk to my BF about my needs and wants and his needs and wants in the relationship I have with him, and he trusts me to bring his needs and wants to the table when I talk to my husband, and my husband trusts me to 'represent' his needs and wants when I discuss things with my BF.

That said! we had the meeting and it was awesome!!!
We discussed all relationships that are currently going on in our poly configuration, including the ones that are nothing but potential relationships.
When we came to my relationship with C, I said "ok, I want you to think about something, you don't have to decide today, I would just like you to think about the possibility of C spending the night here when you are also home." I immediately made clear that it wasn't about sex, but about me wanting to spend time with C in my city, and that we would all sleep in different rooms, and that he would not hang around the whole day ater the visit. I was SO surprised but my husband said that he's willing to try it, and see how we all feel. "Let's experiment", is what he said, and that's much more than I'd hoped for
So, big success, and my BF was so happy about it, and we're planning the first sleep over soon.
So, this was another case of me being way too nervous for something that turned out to be relatively simple.

 

[Cleo]

If your husband has forgiven the cheating, do you think it's helpful for you to hold a grudge?

You don't have to like your husband's girlfriend, you don't have to spend time with her. But if you're going to expect your husband to approve of your boyfriend staying a night in your house, then it seems only right that he should have the same privilege. I'm big on "What's good for the goose is good for the gander," provided the goose and gander actually want the same thing.

Wanted to respond to this as well. I don't hold a grudge, but I've never really liked her, and the cheating part hasn't helped with that, and I don't want to share my space (and my bathroom) with someone I don't like.
Also, because I spend 1, sometimes 2, nights a week at my BF's house, she can spend those nights in my house with my husband - which is fine with me. And, because my husband often works from home, she sometimes comes by for lunch and I'm pretty sure a lot of those lunchdates stretch into afternoons in the bedroom... which is also fine with me, as long as I'm not there and as long as the house is tidy when I get home!

So these are all opportunities for my husband to spend time with his GF in our house that I don't have with my BF. And because my husband can't spend the night at her place, (roommate issues), I don't have the same privileges he has when it comes to having people spend the night. But on the other hand, I can stay at my BF's lovely house and take little minivacations there, which is something my husband can't do. So there is an imbalance already... and btw, my husband never even mentioned that he would want her to spend the night while I am home. I don't think he'd even want that, for fear of drama

 

[AggieSez]

Cleo, I'm glad your negotiations went well, congrats.

I understand that your preferred negotiation style is not to include your additional partners directly in negotiations about your network of relationships; that you and your spouse choose to "represent" your respective additional partners in negotiations, and convey the decisions you make back to them. I'm glad that so far this seems to work well for you. I hope it's also working well for your additional partners.

I'd ask you to consider the long-term implications of this negotiating style.

What often happens in the long run when negotiations are handled hierarchically and indirectly is that a "game of telephone" crops up. In any situation where people are speaking and negotiating on behalf of others, and direct communication/negotiation isn't part of the process, errors of interpretation or omission are especially likely. That's not a big deal when things are running relatively smoothly -- but during a conflict or crisis, indirect communication often amplifies problems or misunderstandings and prevents collaborative solutions.

That's why it's usually easier and safer in the long run (though at first perhaps a bit awkward) to do at least some regular direct communication/negotiation that involves additional as well as primary partners. If you get used to this process on small issues, when things are running well, you're more likely to navigate inevitable major crises, changes or conflicts with less stress and risk.

You might want to clarify *why* you don't currently include your additional partners directly in negotiations about your network of relationships. What are you trying to preserve, protect, or avoid? There may be other (and fairer, and less risk-prone) options to achieve those goals.

Also, from the perspective of an additional partner, this direct approach to negotiations is more fair and respectful. Many poly people prize fairness as a value, and this is a key way to walk that talk.

Whenever someone is deprived of a direct voice in matters that affect them directly, that set up an unbalanced power dynamic that puts the voiceless at a significant disadvantage. The effect, too often, is that their needs (as well as whatever ideas or resources they have to offer) are more likely to get less consideration, and they may be treated more disposably.

Just something to consider.

- Aggie

 

[nycindie]

Cleo, I am glad to hear how well the conversation went for you -- and I look forward to reading your posts after your bf starts staying over!


Aggie, not everyone wants or needs to conduct their relationships like one big happy huddle. It's perfectly fine and valid to manage multiple relationships separately, whether there is a hierarchy or not. They do not live communally, are not all involved with each other, and it seems they have a method that works for them and respects their autonomy. I see no problems in how Cleo and her husband communicate with and on behalf of their lovers. Just because her bf wasn't sitting down at the table with them doesn't mean he didn't have a direct voice. Cleo expressed for him what he wanted expressed, and posted that the bf is happy with the results of the meeting! If it ain't broke...

 

[GalaGirl]

GLad it went well!

GG

 

[Cleo]

Cleo, I am glad to hear how well the conversation went for you -- and I look forward to reading your posts after your bf starts staying over!

Thanks! we have the first sleep over planned, it will in 2 weeks very, very excited about it, and I'll be sure to report back on my blog!

Aggie, not everyone wants or needs to conduct their relationships like one big happy huddle. It's perfectly fine and valid to manage multiple relationships separately, whether there is a hierarchy or not. They do not live communally, are not all involved with each other, and it seems they have a method that works for them and respects their autonomy.

Yeah, this is how I see it. Unless we were all living together, or spend a lot of time together on a regular basis, I don't really see the reason to have a meeting with the 3 of us present. Personally, I would never expect my other BF, to whom I am a secondary, to include me in his talks with his primary GF about how he divides his time. I haven't even met her, yet he and I have been together for almost a year (although we don't see each other very often, we have a strong connection), and there's never been an issue.

Aggie, what you said

I understand that your preferred negotiation style is not to include your additional partners directly in negotiations about your network of relationships; that you and your spouse choose to "represent" your respective additional partners in negotiations, and convey the decisions you make back to them. I'm glad that so far this seems to work well for you. I hope it's also working well for your additional partners.

makes it seem like I think that my husband and I, as the Couple, are somehow in charge. But like I said, it works the other way around too - I represent my husband when I talk to BF. I expect my other BF to represent me when he talks to his primary about spending time with me. And if C. (the BF who is now coming for a sleepover - sheesh it gets confusing with so many BF's ) finds another partner, I would expect him to represent her needs when talking to me, and mine when talking to her.

I could only see this changing organically, for instance when my BF were to spend a lot more time in my house and with my husband around, they would develop a relationship of their own, and it would make sense to talk together about stuff. Right now, it doesn't.