Needing some input from experienced people please

A

Alexandra

New member
Hello :)

I'm unsettled by the situation that I'm in, and I'm hoping I might get some useful advice from experienced others please.

Briefly: I'm in my mid forties, happy and healthy. I've been in a relationship with my partner L for almost twenty years. We've had our ups and downs, of course, but we're happy and good for each other. I love him dearly, I don't want to be without him.

June this year, I found myself back in touch with my first love, T. To my surprise and delight, I found that I am still in love with him. He has never stopped loving me and hoping that we might one day be reconciled. (However, we've had almost no contact in the intervening years.) We texted and spoke on the phone and eventually we met up. The feelings were incredibly intense and beautiful.

After a couple of months I knew that I didn't want to be without T or L. I approached L and asked if he might consider opening our relationship. We discussed it over several weeks, and eventually he agreed. However, he said that he felt that he didn't really have a choice. He recognises that I am "madly" (his word) in love with T, he is fearful of losing me.

When T asks me "What do you want?" I say "I'm greedy, I want both of you. Why should I have to choose between these two amazing men? Why should I ration the love that is available and offered to me?" T is prepared to share me, to meet L if L wants it, and is generally being generous, open, loving, patient and kind.

L believes that T has an agenda, and is "dishonourable" for "messing with another man's lady". T pointed out (half joking) that since he knew me first and has never stopped loving me, it is in fact L that is the interloper

I feel no remorse or guilt at all, but I do feel the pain that L is experiencing, and I hate that I am causing him pain.

L either can't or won't talk about it. It's become the elephant in the room.

How can I negotiate this, how can I make it easier for L?

Obviously, this is a very brief synopsis and it's all far more interesting and complex than this post allows!
 
I don't know that there's anything you can do unless L decides to discuss the issues. It takes the two of you to negotiate issues, not just one of you. Without him taking an active role in negotiating things...well, there's no negotiating things.

He just may not be able to deal with a poly relationship, even if he's just poly to the extent that he's in a mono pairing with a poly partner. There are no magic words to engage somebody who's just not interested in discussing an issue. It may end up that you have to decide on one or the other.
 
By not discussing it with me, he creates an impasse, which is one way to assert control of some sort, I suppose.

It's funny... I always thought he was the more poly-minded of us, but it appears that I may have been wrong in this.

No, I can't seem to find the magic words to enable him to discuss this with me. He seems to think that if he doesn't think about it or talk about it it, it somehow isn't happening. But he is having bad dreams, very clearly about this situation.

One of the things that makes me uncomfortable is that his refusal to engage with the issue somehow forces me to be secretive. And that feels deceiptful. If T phones me, I feel that I have to hide it from L.

Having to choose between them is not something I want. I love L, I don't want to be without him, he makes me happy. But now that T is in my life, I can't imagine being without him either.
 
Maybe L needs time? Maybe a different approach? (Not sure what). I can see how it is difficult to be at a standstill when you're willing and wanting to discuss things, but it takes two to do that...
 
Perhaps if you told L that you are beginning to find a need to go underground with your love and that is not going to work for the long haul then he will sit up and listen. It probably would help if you were to spend time all three of you together. Bottom line is that he needs time and you will have to wait, keep communicating and be patient.

There are many stories on here that are similar to yours... please read as much as you can on here and elsewhere, because you are not alone.
 
Sometimes you just have to make a choice in life. Hopefully you will be able to work through it and all be happy. Happiness may or may not result in being together. Just accept that while loving two may seem natural to you it may be beyond the ability of others. Nothing wrong with that..just life.

Take care
 
Thanks for the replies :)



rolypoly said:
Maybe L needs time? Maybe a different approach? (Not sure what). I can see how it is difficult to be at a standstill when you're willing and wanting to discuss things, but it takes two to do that...
Click to expand...

Yes, of course he needs time, I can see that. I am patient by nature, and T is also prepared to be patient. But I suspect that L may use the waiting game as another way to keep things on his terms.

I don't like game laying. And I;m not even sure that L sees that it might be game playing. He's just trying to cope, reacting to a new and very difficult situation.


redpepper said:
Perhaps if you told L that you are beginning to find a need to go underground with your love and that is not going to work for the long haul then he will sit up and listen. It probably would help if you were to spend time all three of you together. Bottom line is that he needs time and you will have to wait, keep communicating and be patient.

There are many stories on here that are similar to yours... please read as much as you can on here and elsewhere, because you are not alone.
Click to expand...

I wish it were possible to have a meeting with all three of us. L has said he cannot think of meeting T. Originally he said "In case I like him". Now I think he simply cannot contemplate such a thing. He seems very stuck.

I am open and looking for any and every opening for discussion, but L keeps shutting it down, avoiding it, and I don't want to force him to talk about it when it clearly is so painful for him. However, avoiding it is also very clearly causing him pain.

He even said that he wishes I'd just had an affair and left him in "blissful ignorance". I pulled him up on that and he admitted it was not the better option.

I don't want to use emotional leverage though: I hate ultimatums, they never work. By saying "I'm beginning to find a need to go underground with this love and that is not going to work for the long haul", am I not creating an ultimatum? Is that really my best option?


MonoVCPHG said:
Sometimes you just have to make a choice in life. Hopefully you will be able to work through it and all be happy. Happiness may or may not result in being together. Just accept that while loving two may seem natural to you it may be beyond the ability of others. Nothing wrong with that..just life.

Take care
Click to expand...


Yes, life... But the thought of losing either one of them is just horrible.

Ah me.... :(

Why is it that something that has the potential to be so beautiful, abundant and embracing can also be the source of pain and exclusion....



The irony is that in all the years we've been together, L has always had intimate emotional attachments to other women. I have always allowed and even encouraged these attachments. They have never become physical, but I know that he has been in love with some of them. Indeed, he is currently involved with one and has been for two years.

I too have had close emotional connections with other men over the years. The difference now is that I want to be sexual with T.

Why does L feel so much more threatened by this aspect of it? I know you guys can't answer this for me, I know it can only be resolved in discussion and by communication, but in the absence of such an opportunity, I have to use the keyboard and an internet forum to straighten out my thoughts....
 
Alexandra said:
Why is it that something that has the potential to be so beautiful, abundant and embracing can also be the source of pain and exclusion....


....
Click to expand...

Try not to forget that what you are asking for is not recieved by most the way you describe it. Put the question to your friends and family and see if they use the same words.

It takes a lot of different wiring and thinking to even comprehend poly, let alone embrace it. Yes, it can be all the things you say; beautiful, abundant and embracing ....for the right people. For the wrong people it is pain and exclusion.

Each of us as individuals have to find our own path and decide who and how many we will walk it with.
 
When it comes right down to it, you can decide to suck it up and be "just friends" with T. There are qualities called "self control" and "free will" and those are two things that set us as humans apart from animals.

In other words, the world is not going to end as you know it just because you don't have sex with T.

Good luck with that.
 
I hope you don't mind a few direct questions and statements...if so, no need to respond my friend :)

Alexandra said:
Hello :)

June this year, I found myself back in touch with my first love, T. !
Click to expand...

How?

Alexandra said:
He has never stopped loving me and hoping that we might one day be reconciled.

L believes that T has an agenda, and is "dishonourable" for "messing with another man's lady". T pointed out (half joking) that since he knew me first and has never stopped loving me, it is in fact L that is the interloper
Click to expand...

I'm a little suspicious myself honestly. "Half joking" anything usually means there is half truth in it. I'd hate to think this guy has a sense of being "obliged" because of your history. That would be disrespect to your husband in my humble secondary opinion.


Alexandra said:
I feel no remorse or guilt at all
Click to expand...

A little New Relationship Energy perhaps?
 
Poly awareness

Hi Alexandra,
I see some sound advice here already but it leaves me at a point of wondering if we've even maybe jumped "ahead" ?
Something to really focus on I think is that overall awareness of "polyamory" in the general population is pretty low and even confused in some who have at least some minimal exposure.
And it seems from your writing you may be in that position right now and IF that's the case then I feel you need to back up, slow down, and as some have suggested start ALL having some deep discussion on the topic & possibilities in general. If you go rushing ahead you may tank the ship for lack of a good compass and understanding of wave behavior.

The general concept of being able to be -successfully - in a loving relationship (let's say 'romantic' although I hate that term) with more than a single individual is NOT something most people are exposed to in our culture.
For most it comes as one of those "WHOAAA - you are saying WHAT ???" moments. And THAT is where the learning process starts.
There's LOTS of good resources out there including forums like this that you all should probably investigate. A couple that come to mind are......

Polyamorysociety.org
Lovemore.com

The folks here I know will be happy to share their views & experiences with all of you too.

Good luck !

GS
 
Gosh i have a lot of empathy for you, Alexandra. Your reconnection w L is intense, you feel infatuated, you have what is called NRE, new relationship energy. I have had so many "crushes" while I was in my long term mono marriage... I know how overwhelming they are, like an obsession.

Yes, I wonder as others do, how you reconnected w L.

My gf and I just went to a conference last weekend where poly/mono relationships were addressed. Where one partner wants other partners, and yet his/her primary doesnt. That isnt our situation, but the material in that session should help you. Here's a link to that faciliator's workshop material on the subject.

all downloadable docs here:

http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/downloadabledocuments.html

guide to opening a prev mono relationship:

http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/images/14_steps_to_opening_a_relationship.pdf

the pleasure and pain of poly/mono relationships
http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/images/Lemons_and_Lemonade_-_Poly_Mono_Relationships.pdf
 
YGirl said:
When it comes right down to it, you can decide to suck it up and be "just friends" with T. There are qualities called "self control" and "free will" and those are two things that set us as humans apart from animals.

In other words, the world is not going to end as you know it just because you don't have sex with T.

Good luck with that.
Click to expand...

Yes, I know this.

L and I have been together for nearly twenty years. In that time, we both of us have had close emotional connections with other people, this has never been an issue for either of us*. Neither of us has ever made those connections sexual.

Speaking for myself, I have certainly been in love with some of those others, and I have desired them sexually. I have will power, I am able to exercise self control.

With T, the desire to be sexual is very powerful. This may be because our teenage love affair was never consummated. We are both able to exercise self control, indeed we have had to rely upon this ability!

As for just being friends - well, I cannot pretend that I'm not in love with him. I can try to keep it non-sexual, I can decide to do that, but even if we never have sex, I will always be aware (well so far this is true) of the heat and desire that we generate when we are in each other's company.


* When I say it's never been an issue, it is of course more complicated than that implies. I don't have a problem with the fact that we each have emotionally intimate connections with other people, nor with the fact that those connections are exclusive and personal. But L tends to chose women who are often rude and out of order towards me. While I tolerate their behaviour when we are in public, I refuse to put up with in in my own home.

We have discussed this a lot over the years. If one of my boyfriends were rude to him, I'd soon say something, but L allows his girlfriends to disrespect me. It's very interesting, and there's much to discuss and explore here. I've certainly given a lot of thought to this dynamic myself.

I have never doubted L's love for me, his relationships with other women have never been the issue. I don't feel jealous or threatened, but it does piss me off when they are ignorant or cocky towards me in my own home! And it pisses me off that L allows and enables their behaviour.

I think that if we were able to move towards an openly acknowledged polyamorous agreement, then we would have to address these issues within that context and perhaps be better able to resolve them.
 
MonoVCPHG said:
If he is anything like me maybe this will help.

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1016
Click to expand...

Thanks Mono, I found that very useful. I have wondered if perhaps it's just that L is more monogamous by nature than I am...


MonoVCPHG said:
Try not to forget that what you are asking for is not recieved by most the way you describe it. Put the question to your friends and family and see if they use the same words.

It takes a lot of different wiring and thinking to even comprehend poly, let alone embrace it. Yes, it can be all the things you say; beautiful, abundant and embracing ....for the right people. For the wrong people it is pain and exclusion.

Each of us as individuals have to find our own path and decide who and how many we will walk it with.
Click to expand...


And thanks again. Yes, I know that it's a big leap for many people. I think I am by nature more poly-minded. When I was in my teens I dreaded the thought of being married, tied to one person for ever, never able to develop new intimacies.

I never really wanted an "open relationship", I mean I never wanted to just pick up lovers or swing. But when I first heard about polyamory it seemed very attractive and sensible to me.

I have broached the subject with L from time to time over the years, but he has always shut down the conversation pretty quickly. I never pursued it because I never had the deep urge that I am currently experiencing with T. And because we arrived at an unspoken agreement whereby we each allowed the other to form these close emotional intimacies with others. We even refer to these friends as "your boyfriend" and "your girlfriend".

The pain and exclusion you refer to: yes, I understand that. I see it and feel it in L now. And I have experienced it myself.
 
MonoVCPHG said:
I hope you don't mind a few direct questions and statements...if so, no need to respond my friend :)
Click to expand...

I'm happy to respond, especially to one so open hearted as yourself :) It's a great opportunity to explore and understand my own motivations and thinking.


MonoVCPHG said:
How?
Click to expand...

You ask how T and I have re-connected after so many years. I'll start by asking a question of my own: I'm wondering why this is relevant? Especially since magdlyn has also asked the question.

We were together for two years when I was 15-17 and he was 16-18. I broke off with him, but not because I no longer loved him. My life was so different, I was going through some very tough and messy stuff, and my family had moved away from the area.

Over the intervening years, I have often thought of him and occasionally (like maybe three times) I'd phone his family home to send greetings and hear news. I didn't speak to him, only to his mum or dad.

Nine years ago, T phoned me (the only time we actually spoke with each other in the last 30 years). He got my number out of the phone book. We had a long conversation and when we hung up, I felt exactly as I had when we were together as teenagers. There was no gap between us. I was surprised by that, but acknowledged to myself that I was still connected to T, still in love with him. And I went back to my own life, enjoying the sense of love. About a year or two later I phoned his mum to send greetings. And so it went.

This last time I phoned (June) his mum said that the house was on the market and they were about to leave the area. Had I left it another month (and every time I've phoned in the past, I've procrastinated for at least a month), I'd have lost connection with T. (He's not a cyberspace person, no facebook or anything of that sort).

His mum offered to pass my number on to T, and to my surprise he phoned me within the week. It quickly came up in conversation that he had never stopped loving me, and I couldn't help telling him that I too felt love for him.

Because I am accustomed to feeling connected and emotional intimacy with people other than L, I didn't think this would be any different. But of course, somehow, it is. Perhaps because he and I were so in love when we were youngsters? Perhaps because he is not a part of my life with L? I don't know.

At first I thought that was simply hung up on me, hung up on the past and our teenage romance, but it's really more than that, He knows me as I am now, he doesn't expect me or require me to be the teenage me... Indeed, I think the reason we were so connected when we were young is because he was able to see and love the real true inner essence of me when I was just a kid. And to me, he seems just the same as he was then. I don't mean that he seems like a 17 year old, I mean that I love in him now just what it was I loved in him then.





MonoVCPHG said:
I'm a little suspicious myself honestly. "Half joking" anything usually means there is half truth in it. I'd hate to think this guy has a sense of being "obliged" because of your history. That would be disrespect to your husband in my humble secondary opinion.
Click to expand...

Of course, yes. As Freud taught, there is no such thing as a joke... I chided him for it and he excused himself saying "Sorry, that was a Bloke thing" or something similar. Actually, he is very respectful and generous about L. He has never pressured me or made me feel in any way as if L is a difficulty for him. When I ask him about this ability, he says "He's your rock, your root, you love him, you're with him. Loving you is about wanting you to have what you want, what makes you happy, and L makes you happy". He is not greedy or needy about my time, energy or attentions.


And as I have said elsewhere, although L tolerates and allows disrespect from his "girlfriends" towards me, I would not (and do not) accept or tolerate that from my "boyfriends".


MonoVCPHG said:
A little New Relationship Energy perhaps?
Click to expand...


Well of course....! But are you suggesting that I ought to feel remorse and guilt?

I do feel dreadful that I am causing pain for L, but not guilty. I mean that I don't feel that being loved is a thing to feel guilty about. I don't feel that I have done anything wrong. I have not lied or cheated or betrayed. I have been open, I am trying to behave honourably, I am trying to find ways to negotiate new and challenging territory, with respect and love for L and for our relationship.

I think that in a way this whole thing would be far simpler (not easier, certainly, but more simple) if I wasn't in love with L, if I was just ready to end the relationship and move on. But I don't want to leave L, I love him, I love our life, I love to spend time with him.

If anything, I am more aware and more appreciative of the love L and I share now that I have T in my life.
 
GroundedSpirit said:
Hi Alexandra,
I see some sound advice here already but it leaves me at a point of wondering if we've even maybe jumped "ahead" ?
Something to really focus on I think is that overall awareness of "polyamory" in the general population is pretty low and even confused in some who have at least some minimal exposure.
And it seems from your writing you may be in that position right now and IF that's the case then I feel you need to back up, slow down, and as some have suggested start ALL having some deep discussion on the topic & possibilities in general. If you go rushing ahead you may tank the ship for lack of a good compass and understanding of wave behavior.

The general concept of being able to be -successfully - in a loving relationship (let's say 'romantic' although I hate that term) with more than a single individual is NOT something most people are exposed to in our culture.
For most it comes as one of those "WHOAAA - you are saying WHAT ???" moments. And THAT is where the learning process starts.
There's LOTS of good resources out there including forums like this that you all should probably investigate. A couple that come to mind are......

Polyamorysociety.org
Lovemore.com

The folks here I know will be happy to share their views & experiences with all of you too.

Good luck !

GS
Click to expand...


I'm not sure I fully understand what you mean by "jumped ahead".

Are you suggesting that I may not fully understand the concept? I'm sure that's true to some extent: after all, can you really understand something until / unless you live it?

I have thought about polyamory a fair bit over the years, I have discussed it as a concept with people, and read about it a bit as well.


Many of our friends and acquaintances have asked us if we have an open relationship because we are accepting of each others' "girlfriends" and "boyfriends" (I don't really know what other term to use for these close connections with others).

I know that I don't want to have an affair, be secretive and deceptive.

I know that I am in love with more than one person, and that I want those people to continue to be part of my lfe.

I know that if / when L is in love with (an)other people, I will have to deal with that too. I know that I may be ambushed by my own feelings and reactions ( I have been in the past!).

I know that communication is key, and I am willing to have difficult conversations.

I know that L may be unable or unwilling to accept polyamory. I know that he may ask me to choose. At this point, I dread this and I have no idea how that might pan out.

I know that polyamory is something that is not accepted or acceptable to many. I know that this may cause problems in our family and social circle. I know we may have to obscure things from those we love, and that's not great.
 
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Magdlyn said:
Gosh i have a lot of empathy for you, Alexandra. Your reconnection w L is intense, you feel infatuated, you have what is called NRE, new relationship energy. I have had so many "crushes" while I was in my long term mono marriage... I know how overwhelming they are, like an obsession.

Yes, I wonder as others do, how you reconnected w L.

My gf and I just went to a conference last weekend where poly/mono relationships were addressed. Where one partner wants other partners, and yet his/her primary doesnt. That isnt our situation, but the material in that session should help you. Here's a link to that faciliator's workshop material on the subject.

all downloadable docs here:

http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/downloadabledocuments.html

guide to opening a prev mono relationship:

http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/images/14_steps_to_opening_a_relationship.pdf

the pleasure and pain of poly/mono relationships
http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/images/Lemons_and_Lemonade_-_Poly_Mono_Relationships.pdf
Click to expand...



Thanks for the links. I'll have a proper delve when I have the time to devote to them properly.

NRE... yes, of course that's part of the picture. But it really doesn't feel like a crush. It feels to me like a deep true lasting connection.

I've had crushes, and they're a lot of fun, but really very internal, private, somehow nothing to do with real life, and never something that I want to pursue or develop. I have had a crush on one of L's best buddies for the whole time I've known him. I adore him, admire and respect him, fancy him, and I suspect that some of the feelings are reciprocated; but I'd never want to be in a loving / romantic relationship with him.

And I've had very tender crushes on others too, with fluttering heart and yearnings.

And I have been in love with several others while L and I have been together. One of them I still have a very close relationship with. We date, we hang out, we have occasionally teased each other about fancying each other, I miss him when I don't see him, we enjoy gazing into each others eyes; and now that he has a girlfriend (he's mono by nature, he says), while I am of course happy for him, I miss our intimate moments together.

But until now, with T, I have never felt this um... need, I suppose, to really incorporate them into my life.

Why?

Not sure.

Perhaps because of the connection we had when we were youngsters. Perhaps, as I said, because it was unconsummated back then: unfinished business. Perhaps because T is not someone I just met, someone who knows L, someone who is part of my current social circle and life.

Or perhaps because it's true and real and he and I are in love?
 
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