Not sure I like being a secondary, is it something I can get better at?

[nouryia]

Background: I'm a woman married to a bi guy w/2 kids and I have a boyfriend who has two other full time mates (m/f) and 2 kids. I'm also new to polyamory.

Dilemma: Struggling with feelings in the secondary relationship. Somehow, this secondary relationship has become rather serious in that we share some pretty strong feelings for each other after about a year of dating. But we don't live together, nor do I really see a way to make that happen. So, I'm not sure where we go from here...

We see each other a couple of times a week, some of it is social, with our mates and other times are more just about 'us'. B/f seems happy with the arrangement and it's okay for the most part. But deep inside, I wish we could have more together... I want to be able to talk to him whenever I feel like it, give him a hug when I get the urge, wake up together once in a while...basically just share my life with him AND my hubby...yet I know it's never going to happen. We both have families that we're committed to. Then I start to wonder: HOW on earth can this relationship sustain itself if it cannot grow? It's like we're 'stuck' at the dating stage and never moving past it.

Question: Am I unable to feel satisfied with a secondary relationship because I'm so new to poly and a mono one would follow a different pattern that's ingrained in my psyche? Or am I just bad at being a secondary?

 

[nycindie]

I wouldn't even entertain the thought that you're "bad at being a secondary" if I were you, so stop that!

I think your situation sounds wonderful!

You are married, so you have a fulltime partner, plus a shared household and two children who also need your time. You have a boyfriend whom you see several times a week and not just for getting laid, which means it is a relationship that has some depth and quality time. Poly relationships don't have to require living together to be successful and, indeed, many do not.

Yet you say you want more, and you wonder how your relationship can grow with the limits it already has. As I see it, some of the things you mentioned you want, such as more opportunities for sharing physical affection, and having overnights, don't seem too unreasonable to me. I don't know why being committed to a family and other partners would preclude those things. They can be negotiated. Perhaps you can ask for an overnight once a month.

As for talking to him "whenever you want," that would probably be problematic. Since he has two children and two other partners beside you, there will be times he cannot talk to you, and to disrupt his time with another partner could be seen as a bit disrespectful if you were to expect that.

My question to you, however, is how much time do you have -- realistically -- for him to be more involved in your life? You didn't say how old your children are, but I would imagine that your schedule is not wide open either. How long have you been seeing the bf? If it's still new, it could be NRE euphoria that just makes you want more. But even if it's not that, it could be just that this is new territory for you and you're not used to having a serious relationship that is not completely entwined with your life. I say, be grateful for that! Maybe all you need to do is a little reframing of your perspective. Being with him can be an oasis when you need it. And you can grow in intimacy by letting down emotional boundaries (when you're ready), even if the amount of time spent together never changes. Taking risks with your heart only needs quality of time, not necessarily quantity of time.

Or maybe you think that if he is more available to you, it will mean something, like that it's a good relationship. We ascribe meaning to all sorts of things, often without realizing it. Like you said, a "pattern ingrained in your psyche." So maybe somewhere in you, you don't think a relationship is real enough or meaningful enough if you're not with him or in touch every day. You seem smart and like you have a good awareness of yourself, so take a look at your belief system regarding intimacy and relationships and see if there is something like that at play here. If this is coming from some old idea from the past about what relationships "should" be, that doesn't necessarily mean that what you want is not valid, but if you know where it's coming from then you have a choice instead of running on automatic pilot. If wanting more involvement and more time with him actually is something you want/need in the present, then you can talk to both your bf and husband about how to have it.

I think it would benefit you to look at all the good, juicy positive stuff you get from this relationship, see if the things you are pining for are really what you need to make you happy or not, and then figure out if there is a way to negotiate for them. But make sure that you're not shortchanging your husband, kids, and your own alone time, in wanting more from the bf -- and be prepared that he might not be able to accommodate your request. Like I said, I think what you have seems pretty sweet to me, but only you know if it is satisfying enough for you.

 

[ThatGirlInGray]

I wish I had an answer, because I'm in a similar situation! I would LOVE to live with both my husband and my partner, but I really don't see that happening anytime in the next, oh, decade (having kids is part of it for us, along with lack of space!). TGIB (my partner) and I have talked extensively about to what degree we want to entangle our lives, and while he, like me, would like more than what we're currently stuck with (LDR) he knows he needs his own space and once he’s out of his current situation does not want to live with ANYONE for a while. At some point he may end up with a roommate or living with an OSO and that will be hard. I know I'll be jealous because that person gets to be there with him every day and I don't. I’m hoping, though, that we can work out a living arrangement in the next few years where he’s in an apartment over our garage or in some sort of in-law quarters. However, that’s only a possibility because of our particular situation and set-up. I doubt it would be an option if he had other partners already.

It may be that I, too, am bad at being a secondary- when I'm close to someone I want them around! Maybe not 100% of the time but I want them around more often than not! Unlike what seems to be a lot of poly people, I don’t like alone time (I’ve never even lived alone). The things I do to recharge still involve people, just maybe different people from the ones I’m usually around. I’m not poly because I want to be independent- if anything I’m poly because I get close to people and want to make them an even bigger part of my life.

I know with kids it can be VERY difficult to do overnights but once a month sounds like a good starting place, and then gauge if more is possible/needed or if fewer are necessary from there. However, I don’t know that your relationship necessarily needs to “grow” from the point it’s at now. I guess I don’t see how sustaining a relationship necessarily requires growth. Change, yes, but that happens automatically with time, regardless of the circumstances. Adapting to the change and keeping your connection is what will sustain your relationship, as I see it, not necessarily growing beyond what it currently is.

Again, I wish I could be more helpful but you are definitely not alone in feeling the way you do!

 

[Anneintherain]

Nycindie had a hell of a lot of great points right there. I'd also throw in a few other questions.

1. Does your husband know you'd like MORE from your other partner, and if so, how does he feel about (either this partner or some other partner in the future) co-habitating with other partners in the future?

2. Does your bf know you'd like MORE from him? Him seeming to be satisfied with what you have is different than talking about it and hearing he would/wouldn't like more. Being vulnerable and telling a partner you'd like to see more of them and having them say they are content with what is happening now can be awkward, but if you haven't asked, I think it's better than keeping things to yourself if you are feeling frustrated.

3. If your bf says he would like more frequent contact with you, is it possible that perhaps some day in the future you might move closer to each other (if not in together). Would it address any of your feelings if you could stop in for coffee because he was just a few blocks away? Is that something his other partner's would be comfortable with? etc etc.

I think if you're afraid to ask him some of the hard questions, it's less likely that your relationship would grow past the plateau you feel you are at in your head. I think if you (for ease of wording) would like this "secondary" relationship to grow into more of a "primary" one, that really requires some soul baring honesty about how you are feeling and what you would like from the relationship. Talking about it might help settle the issue either way for you, you may even hear what he has to say and find yourself more content even if nothing can change.

I also wonder about sustaining longer term non life sharing connections, I think I have assumed that they will either fade away or grow into more in time since I have no experience in maintaining them before now. It's going on a year here with my boyfriend and I wonder if I can see somebody once a week for two years? Three? It is new odd territory for me too, so although I am not in a position to want what you want from your relationship, I am very curious about what other advice and responses you get about this subject.

 

[nouryia]

So much wonderful advice...

Thank-you...every reply brought up some really good points and questions. Looks like I have much thinking to do. Maybe I don't really want more from the b/f, maybe I just worry about losing what we already have.

We have no life together per se, no kids, no joint account...just moments in time. I guess I've been looking to set some kind of foundation to solidify this really great and loving relationship but can't seem to find a way, for obvious reasons.

I also wonder, as was said, how we're to go on 'dating' for 2-3 or more years. Typical mono relationships either evolve into deeper commitment or face the great 'fade out'. And I worry that once the new and shiny wears off, we'll have nothing left.

Perhaps I need to address those fears with him directly...I just hate feeling so damned insecure

 

[SchrodingersCat]

I can't help but feel like people who need to be with their partners all the time have dependency issues.

I personally find it very draining to be involved with people who can't stand being away from me.

So it makes me think... it's not that you're bad at being a secondary, it's that you're bad at being single. It just happens that you're not single, but the symptoms look the same to me.

I think it's important for people to meet their own needs themselves. Expecting other people to meet your needs puts a heavy burden on them. It's a lot to live up to.

For those who feel the need to share every aspect of their lives with their partner, I'm curious: do you have a history of rushing into serious relationships? Does that ever leave a trail of destruction when the relationships don't work out? Or is it more that you're comparing your marriage, which you've spent years building, to a new relationship that's still growing? Perhaps all you need is to give the new relationship time to flourish.

Hmm... that is an interesting observation you make about many poly people liking their alone time. I know I certainly do. I haven't ever polled people to see how common that is. I'm currently interested in a woman who is very gregarious and hates being alone. I'm interested in hearing how it is for other poly folk.

 

[Magdlyn]

Hi nouryia, welcome to the board.

Like NYCindie here, I think your arrangement sounds pretty wonderful, especially because your bf makes time to see you twice a week, despite 2 other live-in partners and you both having kids.

I hear you wish you could tell him things whenever you feel like it.
But that's why god gave us internet IMs and PMs and texting!

One social get together and one evening for intimacy sounds good to me... I know when my kids were younger and still living at home, this would have seemed like an unattainable luxury to me.

However, I think your main problem is your fear of fully communicating your desires for even more contact. Even if it's impossible to negotiate more time, I'd encourage you to express your longing. One thing we say in poly is it's all about full disclosure of feelings. Open and honest communication is mandatory. Don't expect people to read your mind.

Maybe you'll be able to arrange an occasional overnight and more online and text communication, maybe not. Either way, you'll probably feel better to let your bf know how you are feeling. Just use "I statements"-- "I wish," "I need," "I feel..." (envious, jealous, lonely, imbalanced, unfulfilled, or whatever it is).

And yes, I do think you're stuck in a mono mindset. Commitment in poly often does NOT lead to shared homes and finances and kids together, happily ever after with a mini van and a white picket fence. Poly brings us other good things: shared interests and activities your other partner(s) don't share with you, good talks, laughs, and lots of yummy sex. Also there is the potential for much personal growth when one gets opinions and views from more than one lover... it keeps us challenged and taking risks.

 

[Preia]

Monogamy programs us to think that the relationship should move through stages and if it gets stuck that we should end it. We start out with meeting people and dating casually, then dating seriously, then comes marriage/moving in together, and kids. The great thing about poly is realizing that you don't have to do it that way for every relationship. You also don't have to give it up if it gets "stuck". If you enjoy the relationship for what it is, relax and enjoy it. Not all relationships need to be marriage minded. That is a hard mindset to break though. It took me most of a 15 year relationship to get it right in my head that moving in and marriage is not happening, and he and I still fantasize about it together on occasion in terms of wouldn't it be great if..... Yeah it would be so great... Oh wait... No it wouldn't. For a lot of reasons.

 

[polyq4]

I am involved in a quad and occasionally now we discuss the 4 of us moving in together. So never say never number one. And we are going on our 4th year as a quad.

 

[Magdlyn]

Monogamy programs us to think that the relationship should move through stages and if it gets stuck that we should end it. We start out with meeting people and dating casually, then dating seriously, then comes marriage/moving in together, and kids. The great thing about poly is realizing that you don't have to do it that way for every relationship. You also don't have to give it up if it gets "stuck". If you enjoy the relationship for what it is, relax and enjoy it. Not all relationships need to be marriage minded. That is a hard mindset to break though. It took me most of a 15 year relationship to get it right in my head that moving in and marriage is not happening, and he and I still fantasize about it together on occasion in terms of wouldn't it be great if..... Yeah it would be so great... Oh wait... No it wouldn't. For a lot of reasons.

Yeah... it's fun to fantasize! My most serious OSO has an underground solar heated house Ive yet to see... Maybe next week! He and his wife dont sleep together because of different mattress preferences. He's building a studio outdoors and it's gonna have a bunk. We could sleep together, he could sculpt, I could draw and paint, we could take long walks on his land, and my gf could cook us great meals.

We are all bi or pansexual too, so of course I've been imagining some kinky sex orgies as well!

Well, I might not be able to get that on a permanent basis, but I am sure looking forward to it once a month or so!

(edit: not the sex orgies, the other stuff lol)

 

[redpepper]

I just got dumped by a boyfriend that considered me his secondary so my thoughts on it might be skewed you can read my blog for details. I would wonder what his wife thinks of you having more.

I had a once a month date for three years and no sex. To me you have it good. Mind you I have other partners too so the time thing was an issue. Really though, it does work and that new relationship energy can last and last the way you are going right now. It can drive you crazy for more or keep you energized if you can ride the wave.

I would breath, smile and enjoy every moment for now. If more comes along then great, but really, to me it sounds like just enough if you have a family and other partner to think about.

 

[ThatGirlInGray]

I can't help but feel like people who need to be with their partners all the time have dependency issues.

I personally find it very draining to be involved with people who can't stand being away from me.

Firstly, "need" and "all" are very absolute words. "strong desire for" and "most" would probably be more accurate. And maybe the OP and I do have dependency issues, but so? I probably have dependency issues, frankly, but I'm doing alright. The key is that I know myself, know what I need and want, and can communicate effectively enough to find partners that are ok with my needs and wants. Neither MC nor TGIB have a problem with the amount of alone time they get compared to together time, so what does it matter if I'm a little on the dependent side? Who am I hurting? I said I didn't like to be alone, not that I couldn't be alone. There's a big difference. The OP is saying she wants more time with her bf, not that she can't function without him. Also a big difference.

I think it's important for people to meet their own needs themselves. Expecting other people to meet your needs puts a heavy burden on them. It's a lot to live up to.

If we meet all our needs ourselves what's the point of having any relationships? I agree putting all that burden on ONE person isn't fair. No one person should be the center of my world and reason for being, not even myself. I live for myself, my kids, my partners, my family, my friends, the kids I help at work...

You know, this thread is making me think of my best friend from high school. He's the opposite from me in some ways, and wants so much alone time that for a large part of my 20's I was worried about him. He probably has intimacy issues, but I've realized that it doesn't matter. He's happy and content with his job and video games and cats and friends and doesn't want a romantic or even purely sexual relationship with anyone. He has no desire to entangle his life with anyone besides his roommate (his sister) and that's ok too. He's fine.

For those who feel the need to share every aspect of their lives with their partner, I'm curious: do you have a history of rushing into serious relationships?

Again, "every" is a strong word. I don't like EVERYTHING the MC and TGIB like, nor do they like everything I like, but I want to hear about things that are important to them, even if I don't share their enthusiasm. And vice versa. I would never have been exposed to anime, for instance, if I had never gone to an Anime Club meeting with a previous bf, which is where I met MC. The three of us like a lot of the same stuff and have similar interests, so it's usually VERY easy to hang out together, but the interests that are different can be excellent ways to grow and learn too.

I tend to rush in to close friendships (when things just "click"!) and sometimes get hurt because of it, but I don't rush in to "sharing my life" kind of relationships. I've only ever had two, the two I'm in now, though there were two others that could maybe have gotten to this level if other things hadn't interfered. So, 4 in 20 years of dating? No, I don't rush in.

Does that ever leave a trail of destruction when the relationships don't work out? Or is it more that you're comparing your marriage, which you've spent years building, to a new relationship that's still growing? Perhaps all you need is to give the new relationship time to flourish.

No, and I doubt it. 1 of the 2 "maybes" was before I ever even met my husband, and the other "maybe" is coming from MC's perspective. I don't think of that relationship as THAT serious, but he sees it as when we began being poly. *shrug*

MC and I knew we'd be sharing our lives before we had been together 6 months. TGIB and I took a little longer but we also knew fairly quickly considering it's a LDR and we've only been together in person for a total of 3 weeks. So I stick with the idea that it doesn't matter how much or how little time you want with a partner as long as you communicate what you want and it works for your partner as well. That's how you avoid lopsided relationships where people end up hurt because they're not getting what they need.

ETA: To clarify, MC and I have the house, kids, joint account, etc. He is my "primary" and we have a legally recognized commitment to each other as well as a personal one. TGIB is my descriptive secondary because while we may at some point share living space (if there's enough of it!) we will never have kids together, combine finances, or own anything together. But we plan on being in each other's lives for the duration. That's our personal commitment to each other.

 

[nouryia]

And yes, I do think you're stuck in a mono mindset. Commitment in poly often does NOT lead to shared homes and finances and kids together, happily ever after with a mini van and a white picket fence. Poly brings us other good things: shared interests and activities your other partner(s) don't share with you, good talks, laughs, and lots of yummy sex. Also there is the potential for much personal growth when one gets opinions and views from more than one lover... it keeps us challenged and taking risks.

Yeah...I fear you're right. It's a bit hard to unlearn after a lifetime of being monogamous. We do have a lovely relationship even without the traditional 'commitment' you mention above. Sometimes it helps to have the obvious pointed out, ya know? lol

As for what Schrodingerscat is saying, it's not that I need to be constantly with my mates. The hubby and I have separate interests, he has a FWB of his own, we are not joined at the hips. I am not constantly needing to "do something" either, I'm a rather quiet person and I enjoy quiet moments. It's the lack of foundation of my secondary relationship that's had me second guessing it's depth and importance. But after reading the many replies, I can certainly say I have a better understanding and mindset regarding what it's like to be a poly secondary

 

[nycindie]

It's the lack of foundation of my secondary relationship that's had me second guessing it's depth and importance. But after reading the many replies, I can certainly say I have a better understanding and mindset regarding what it's like to be a poly secondary

Lack of foundation? Hmm... I am curious - what does that mean to you? What kind of foundation are you lacking in the relationship with your bf? I think it might be a good writing exercise for you, to explore what a "foundation" is to you, and what kind of commitments you want. There are all kinds of ways to commit to someone.

If there is honesty, and the ability to communicate honestly with each other, that is certainly a good foundation. Or are you looking for some sort of "pledge" or declaration from him? If you feel that you are unsure of how to express your needs in this relationship, working on your communication skills and confronting your insecurities would be a good place to start in building a strong foundation.

And you don't have to feel like you should project some kind of easygoing experienced-and-cool-with-poly attitude. It is perfectly fine to say to him something like, "Sometimes I feel like I don't know how to be a secondary. You know I'm crazy about you, but I feel a little insecure about my place in your life. I'd like some sort of reassurance that I can count on this, or at least knowing that you want to keep moving forward with me for the long-term. Without that, I just feel like our relationship is a little bit on shaky ground - but it could just be my inexperience. What do you think?"

How do you feel about saying something like that to him?

 

[nouryia]

How do you feel about saying something like that to him?

Honestly, I'm a little bit afraid. I do want to seem 'cool about it' rather than insecure...so guilty there. I don't like to admit my insecurities, I feel like that would make me annoying and whiny. I know it's advisable to be open and speak up...but I'm definitely a bit apprehensive, probably because I know in my subconscious that some, if not most of my fears, are likely unfounded.

The lack of foundation I mention is a lack of traditional commitment (ie. moving in/marriage) that's not on the agenda of this secondary relationship. He has a wife and a husband, I have a husband and we have 4 kids and 7 pets between the two of us...moving in together would be a logistical nightmare, lol.

I am glad to hear that some of you have carried on meaningful secondary relationships for multiple years...it gives me hope we can make it work too

 

[nycindie]

Honestly, I'm a little bit afraid. I do want to seem 'cool about it' rather than insecure...so guilty there. I don't like to admit my insecurities, I feel like that would make me annoying and whiny.

You could just direct him to this thread.

 

[redpepper]

Knowing what kind of foundation you feel comfortable with is important. It can be uncomfortable to have a need for some kind of certain stability in the form of shared income, formal commitment, shared housing and know you won't ever have that with a person. It takes a lot of trust and even then its no guarentee that it will work.

If you have some of the foundation you need from others in your life, perhaps you can just let it go and enjoy. I hope so, I struggled with that as a secondary, but pushed myself to let go as much as I could. It wasn't enough letting go, but for you it could be.

Maybe there is a boundary that he is willing to see you at if you talk to him about how you feel. I suggest you go to him with some kind of idea of boundaries that he might be able to meet though. Maybe sit and think about what you need and what you would be willing to forgo in order to get somewhere close to seeing your needs met. Then go and tell him your struggles and give him some ideas on how you could feel more worthy and needed in your relationship by him. Ask him what he needs too.

 

[gwendolenthefair]

Nouriya, I'm in a similar boat. I have a LDR with my secondary partner and both of us are married to other people. We have four kids among us, and we own homes and are very settled in our communities. I only get to see him every 2-4 months, depending on what is going on. Although we have only been together for ten months (and that is if you count virtual friendship, which is how we started), I see him as a life partner and I know he sees me the same way. I just don't know how to get to happily ever after from what we have now. I am completely committed to my husband and my OSO is completely committed to his wife. I haven't even dared to fantasize about living with him but living in the same town would sure be nice.

What bothers me the most about being a secondary is having very little input in terms of who else my OSO dates. He dated someone local over the summer, who sounded very nice to me, and I was supportive. It didn't work out, and now he is interested in someone new. I have seen this person's profile on a kink site and I think she sounds like a sociopath. In addition, I am very uneasy about any partner of mine being potentially the sub in a D/s relationship (new woman is a domme), after having a very bad experience with a domme metamour in the past, who booted me out of a long-term relationship with someone I loved very much.

(I hadn't even known my OSO was interested in kink until he told me about this new woman, we have always been vanilla and he seemed happy with that. I could have easily played that way in our relationship, I have some experience with that, but he never asked.)

Anyway OSO listened politely to my concerns, then told me he could take care of himself and not to worry. I dropped the issue, but I hate not having more input than that. If I was his wife, I know I would.

 

[wildflowers]

Honestly, I'm a little bit afraid. I do want to seem 'cool about it' rather than insecure...so guilty there. I don't like to admit my insecurities, I feel like that would make me annoying and whiny. I know it's advisable to be open and speak up...but I'm definitely a bit apprehensive, probably because I know in my subconscious that some, if not most of my fears, are likely unfounded.

I can really relate to this. It isn't always an issue for me, but it pops up somewhat regularly. The fact that it isn't always present can make me feel like maybe I should just get through it on my own when it does recur, knowing that I do have unwarranted flare-ups of insecurities. On the other hand, the fact that it keeps coming back makes it feel like a real issue that I shouldn't ignore. And feeling that I can't talk about something tends to make it worse for me. I think what I tend to do now is not bring it up immediately, try to sit with the feelings for a while and see if they subside, and also get a better sense of what it was that triggered them. Then if I need to talk I can do it a bit more calmly, and it can ends up being more of a real discussion, rather than simply a session for soothing my jangled nerves. It's definitely possible to talk about it without being whiny. And really, I don't get a sense that you are being whiny, which I associate with being critical; I didn't hear criticism of your boyfriend's behavior at all.

What I don't get a sense of from your posts is how communicative your boyfriend is about his feelings and expectations. Do you just need him to talk more about them? Does he talk about past relationship so you have a sense of whether his relationships have a typical progression? Not that yours would necessarily follow that progression, but still, his experience likely shapes his expectations.

Also, in that you seem to want to share a lot emotionally, I expect that you want such sharing to come back to you. So is part of your insecurity simply that he has less of a tendency to talk about all this stuff, giving you a feeling that you don't totally know him or understand him?

 

[wildflowers]

Nouryia, I found your question about insecurities a helpful starting point for my own thinking. I started writing them down as if addressed to my boyfriend, although I'm not actually planning to give the writing to him. But I thought some of it might be helpful for you, seeing that/how others might struggle. But I didn't want to hijack your thread, so I started my own, which is here:
http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?p=122346#post122346