Polyamorists who have had near death experiences

[Zay]

Welcome to the 4th level I'm watching. Classical and quantum physics...at the top of a list of sciences. Although I'm unclear about your comment concerning the word "coincidence". According to google it's synonymous with destiny and serendipity. In Al-Anon they had piece of literature "Just for Today" which basically was my program. One of the items says that we take our "luck" as it comes in quotes, suggesting that there no such thing as chance. -> ( How would that strike you Al, you're Jungian ? ) <- Serendipity is a word I found in my main group ACOA, meaning a happenstance albeit a fortunate circumstance, much like an either / or equation like Schrodinger's cat, being the alive cat instead of the dead cat, and in all our groups "there but for the grace of....well, you know who....there go I" is a ubiquitous standard saying that grace trumps karma in our case. I can't argue with it. I can't imagine what my life would have been like without my programs. But coincidence meaning destiny ? Hmmm. I dunno. There are three schools of thought (quantumly speaking), the Copenhagen/ Bohr ; Deterministic/ Einstein ; or All Worlds / Everett. ( Personally, I'm in Feynman's camp, All Worlds. ) Which would you be in? About the unremarkable incidents, to me, that's only a matter of time and place. (Like the cats, alive by chance in this world, who knows in the other, presumably alive as well. )

 

[kdt26417]

My comment about coincidence was just meant to say that non-random events can come together in a coincidental way. That's not to say that no coincidence can be random, and if someone thinks a coincidence was random, I guess serendipity would be the thing to call it. There's a word for randomness, namely the word "randomness" itself. Even if nothing is random, the concept is conceivable and thus a word for it exists. But my point was that coincidences can happen even if there is no randomness.

 

[Zay]

Hmph. Interesting. I really want to thank you Kev. This is probably the most civil and interesting conversation I've had with an atheist in a long time, even if we differ on things like "coincidence" and "unremarkable incidences". I guess the saying is true, some people see the world as if nothing is a miracle, while others see the world where everything is a miracle. The difference then would be the centering principle of our own individual perspectives. Unremarkable incidences? To my mind, there is no such thing, it is only the arc, the pathway, the journey through time to what we perceive as being remarkable, like steps on an unremarkable staircase from downstairs to a remarkable upstairs, or the steps along the way from point A to point B with the seemingly remarkable perceptions only perceived as such directly due to what we see as unremarkable in contrast to the remarkable. I'm use to seeing the world from a fifth dimensional view point, or what I call, from a God's eye view of the world. Are you familiar with Minkowski Light cones? Or with Brian Greens Fabric of the Cosmos/ The Illusion of Time? It's an interesting watch and study. Any starting event can be mapped out by a Minkowski Light Cone, be it your birth date, the day you met a beloved one, or from the event called The Big Bang that started it all, the beginning of the universe. Using the speed of light as a constant of the expansion rate, it forms a cone as it travels through space-time, a 4th Dimension. In Brian Green's / PBS Illusion of time was part of a series, (and available on Youtube,) Brian steps in front of a Minkowski Light Cone which is a map from the penultimate moment when the universe flashed into being, up till now and projected forward into future, which gives a rare glimpse of something that most beings can never see as 3D people living within a 4D envelope of space-time, a view of us from outside of that envelope. Hugh Ross, a cosmologist, suggested that whatever the source that set all this in motion, must exist outside of time, as well as space. Then you can understand how a claim like knowing the end from the beginning, and how you can slide in a out of space time to be anywhere in it and outside it too, do anything with anyone at anytime or none at all, and it's all possible in a fifth dimensional world.

 

[Al99]

More of a mystery is the Big Bang, and subsequent existence of the universe.

Here you go, Kevin.
(Apparently you will have to click on the file to see it - with the current software. I seem to recall we used to be able to post pics - but I believe you will find it amusing).


View attachment big-bang1.jpg

 

[Al99]

Kevin, I do respect your "Doubting Thomas" perspective - and that you would need to chat with a dead person to be convinced of an afterlife. However, labeling volumes of anecdotal evidence "confirmation bias", it seems to me, is unjustifiably dismissive of a great deal of in depth research and may well be reflective of one's own preconceptions. Many objective third parties would undoubtedly find the body of evidence convincing, even overwhelmingly so - yet others still may not. Still, if your bar is a personal experience, then these volumes will obviously not be meaningful. While I have had numerous personal experiences that left me personally convinced of the reality of an afterlife (and of a universe of consciousness that transcends the physical), I have no expectation that anyone else would believe them or find them useful - nor would I attempt to convince anyone of such - or (for personal reasons) share them on this forum. Still, I suspect that you may be pleasantly surprised when your time comes.

My perspective is not religious - although I do hold certain metaphysical, ontological, and spiritual beliefs to be true in a form that I resonate with. I use the term Christian to refer to Jesus' message of love, kindness, and forgiveness - to which I aspire - not the Nicene based traditional Christian theology. Obviously the idea that God sent His Son to be sacrificed to "save our souls" from eternal hell is absurd, a reflection of primitive tribal beliefs that required sacrifice to appease the Gods. As I wrote earlier, religion has nothing to do with thought and consciousness that may transcend our limited space-time awareness (other than religions trying to explain such with all manner of superstition). Quantum physics has established that thought itself interacts with the physical. And the 2022 Nobel Prize in Physics was awarded to three physicists for proving that the universe "is not real" - science is increasingly understanding that "things are not what they seem". Cutting edge quantum theories suggest that thought itself may underly physical reality. One metaphysical suggestion is that the Big Band was the result of a thought that there could be a universe separate from the Oneness of Reality. Again, my perspective has nothing to do with the traditional concept of "God" - other than as a "First Thought/First Cause" so to speak. And, I am not trying to convince anyone - but would certainly encourage anyone to have an open mind.

On a different note, while I don't have a lot of time to post here these days - I do appreciate all the effort that you have consistently dedicated to this group over the years (as well as all the other "regulars" who devote time and effort to assist those dealing with poly-related issues, and especially those who are transitioning to poly). This group was very helpful to me as my wife and I transitioned our marriage to poly.

Al

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Zay,

I believe there can be such a thing as a miracle without any supernatural underpinning. Most things in this world and universe are miraculous even when they have a natural explanation. I assume everything has a natural explanation, we just haven't discovered every explanation yet.

My perception of the Big Bang is that time and space did not exist before/outside it, it literally marks the beginning of all things. Nothing "set it in motion," it just emerged from nothing. Not a very exciting model of existence I guess, but it's what I believe.

I don't think we can slide in and out of space and time. I don't think anything exists outside the universe. We are limited to whatever dimensions are contained within the universe. (String theory has some interesting things to say about that.)

Hi Al99,

Thanks for your friendly and good-humored response to my cantankerous musings. I can only hope for a pleasant surprise when I pass away, as it stands I just have to expect that all of my memories and awareness will disappear, including any disappointment I may feel.

I do feel mighty skeptical about the idea that, "Quantum physics has established that thought itself interacts with the physical," although I admit I have very little understanding about quantum mechanics, outside it being a description of how atomic and subatomic entities behave.

Ultimately I guess I do rely on personal experience to determine what I personally believe. I spent a lot of years taking the LDS church at its word, I don't want to take anyone at their word now. I don't mean to be adversarial by saying that, but maybe I am adversarial. Sorry.

Regards,
Kevin T.

 

[Zay]

Well we all have one thing in common on this site, we are all polyamorists. Call it what you may, coincidence, destiny, serendipity, etc, etc, we're all together here in this one place at the same one time. (With teleology telling me, "for a reason") (which you may or may not share.) As polyamorists in this time and space, I perceive that the odds are stacked against us on multiple levels for having and maintaining successful long term relationships, (for today.) That doesn't mean we cannot have successful long term relationships, it just means we are disadvantaged several ways, yet are the trailblazers for those who are going to follow after us down the polyamorist path. There are some certainties for our species as human beings, that without an intervention, the reality is when we individually die, we will all eventually die in our own time, alone. The main questions I have is how we can use what we know to our advantage, to lessen those odds against us collectively. Both Freud and his protege Jung belonged to a group that used Gestalt. ( I did a major comparison study, with a religious polyamorous group vs a secular polyamorous grouping, both operating under a Gestaltian approach, both of which eventually failed and no longer exists. Then compared that result to a plethora of groups under a 12 step Jungian approach, who are not only still around and surviving but growing and thriving as well, suggesting that the Jungian approach and model is a better format to build a stable foundation on, increasing the odds for long term group survival for success, in our favor. Make of it what you will.) Well Freud believed that the concept of God was a delusion of the mind. Jung confronted him on that with a thought. His research concluded that about 98 % of the people he encountered and observed, without prompting, had some form of God consciousness, (whether by nature or by nurture) on a subconscious level, and suggested that spirituality is hardwired into our nature, as human beings. This was made clear by his statements to Freud, Rowland H. and Bill W. plus his teachings. Furthermore, Jung was non-monogamous with multiple paramouri including his wife Emma, Spielrein, and Wolfe. His quip to Freud was this; if God was a delusion of the mind, why would nature imbue us with a thought of a Higher Power, if a Higher Power didn't exist? It took a commodities teacher to bring that thought home to me by teaching us to bring our spirituality into our trading. He suggested that our nature had hardwired us humans with a method to "know" that food and water does indeed exist as an intuitive instinct, even in a desert where neither food nor water exists or would be available, yet we would still "know" it exists by our own hunger and thirst as internal prompts to go searching for it. Since I "know" I exist, and know that I didn't put myself here, I "know" intuitively something intelligent, something greater than me also exists as well. So I use Anthropic principle as a form of reverse engineering to backtrack myself to that source.

TO KEV-> String theory, eh? <g> That Brian Green vid on time had a bunch of experts, several of which I know. I took in 96 lectures from astrophysics prof, Alex Filippenko from Berkeley, (Max Tegmark, MIT professor, was a student of Alex, ) (and Alex also worked with Adam Reiss, discoverer of Dark Energy.) Alan Guth of MIT who plays with bubbles in his basement lab, (and no doubt in his bathtub too<g>.) I've been following the work of Ovrut, Turok, and Steinhardt's work on Brane (M) Theory, merging the five string theories together, also Lisa Randell, Harvard, on M theory as well. I've also done a doctorate level course on Superstring theory under Sylvester (James) Gates, adjunct professor out of the University of Maryland, with a double doctorate in physics and mathematics, who works for DARPA with a team, and is team leader of 3 other doctors of physics and 3 of mathematics. What would you like to know?<g> Since you're following an atheistic path, I'll play devil's advocate and give you a possible source for you to play with. M Theory suggests two Branes collided which caused the Big Bang. I've seen a Minkowski model of two universes created back to back from the same source, like equal and opposite reactions to the Big Bang, which operate similar to the north and south polar jets of a magnetar. It would certainly explain why anti-matter is so rare in this universe, and suggests the other universe could be composed of anti-matter our polar opposite. Furthermore it also follows Gates' work and the model that he shows at the end of his course which looks rather bilateral. Knowing you are from an LDS source, I can certainly understand how traumatic leaving it must have been for you since I did the same thing with a Hebrew Roots type church whose principles seemed compromised and incompatible to to my direction, so I blew them off. (I'm keeping tabs on one Messianic site run by a guy who comes across to me like a violent lunatic, yet he has some interesting and knowledgeable guests, and one of them was Jake Hilton who did a series on the Mormon church, demonstrating the Book of Abraham was a fraud, and if that was so, what about the Book of Mormon? I knew a guy, Walter H. who was polyamorist Mormon from Utah, a regular like me, and guys like Dave Phoenix on the lovingmore chat when Ryam Nearing was in charge of the site. Life wasn't easy for him. Say what you like however, the Mormon community is a strongly knit, wealthy community of a fairly decent natured people, yet highly perfectionistic, so leaving it and its security had to be difficult and overwhelming, even if the community is built on a house of cards. And like Al, I thank you for your service to the polyamorist community.



TO AL-> Strong words, thank you for your input. They were fitting from a certain perspective, yet there's other ways to see it from the perspective of a guy like Tim Mahoney who shows evidence that the major miracle stuff of the OT was real with the Yom Suf crossing occurring at Nuweiba Beach of the Aqaba finger of the Red Sea, with Jabel al Lawz the Mount of Moses. This wouldn't be of interest to Kev, the Thomas of this group, but it may be to you. It still begs the question why a "loving" God would give what some would call 613 impossible laws, unless that was the point to identify the one person who could keep it all and identify him as the Anointed One. As you know, we operate by progress rather than perfection, making me more of a somewhat imperfect perfectionist <g>. Jung, the source of the 3rd and 11th steps, was asked if he believed in a God in a 1961 radio broadcast, he replied, "No, I "know" there is." I initially thought, "How the heck could he "know" there is a God?" I knew from my intuition and by abnormal meiosis, by a reductionist method, as confirmation. So I followed his research, and saw something that even he didn't see, but I did. Ross went further to show via the fine tuning argument, that the source has a personality. It's a pretty good argument, although I question his percentile by just how much smarter than us he is, and found both him and Meyer, although brilliant with the Cambrian Explosion argument, a bit preachy. Tour, one of the top chemists in the world, a Messianic, is utterly brilliant with endless energy, meticulous, is relentless and pure science<g>. Garte on the other hand, a biochemist, makes a more laid back yet great argument as well on the same topic as Tour in regards to chemical evolution. What I do know is that motivation by threat, violence, guilt, fear, shame, control, deception or any other negative means, may work for a while, but not indefinitely. Attraction rather than promotion will work, as you said, love and kindness and a few more positives like patience, tolerance, self-control etc is the Good News and the path forward. A study of Jesus (/ Yeshua's ) life and teachings to which I also aspire, imperfectly so, brought me to place where I caught a subconscious thought that I said from my own self, which locked it in for me, and that was, "Well if he ain't God, then he should be." There's a very popular show, crowd funded, called The Chosen. So far it has 3 seasons in, each with 8 episodes, 24 so far, that is free from both the The Chosen and Angel studios websites, that highlights what I just said. (Don't expect bible rote from it, it's only a show, but it does get across my last statement very strongly.) What would a 14 billion year old super-being who put everything in motion look like in our world with us? That's the surprise, and it ain't the only one. Yeshua is polyamorous, and that is scriptural.

 

[Magdlyn]

There's a very popular show, crowd funded, called The Chosen. So far it has 3 seasons in, each with 8 episodes, 24 so far, that is free from both the The Chosen and Angel studios websites, that highlights what I just said. (Don't expect bible rote from it, it's only a show, but it does get across my last statement very strongly.) What would a 14 billion year old super-being who put everything in motion look like in our world with us? That's the surprise, and it ain't the only one. Yeshua is polyamorous, and that is scriptural.

I am kind of a gnostic, like Al. I've read quite a bit of historical criticism of the canonical bible (I have been studying since 2000), as well as the apocrypha, gnostic texts, alternate apocalypses, etc., as well reading about other ancient cultures and religions. My favorite writer on biblical and other ancient history is Richard Carrier. All religions are made-up ways for people to deal with our mortality and struggle with moral questions, and just have fun imagining super beings, as we still do in the Marvel Universe. It is quite enjoyable to study it all.

My daughter, who is an evangelical Christian (bless her heart, she has a mental illness called borderline personality disorder, and a literal view of the bible helps her to function), recommended this show to me. I tried to watch one episode and was bored to death. It was very plodding and I didn't care for the extra stuff they threw in on top of the bible story as it is.

 

[phoenix]

Hi Zay,

I experienced an NDE approximately a year and a half ago and I view the time I’m living now like a gift from the universe (I now also see very clearly that my life leading up to the NDE was also a miraculous gift). It prompted me to ask myself how I would like to live this ‘bonus life’ and I found myself considering polyamory as a way to live and love moving forward .

My background: I’ve found the philosophical teachings of Buddhism (not the religious doctrine that grew up around the memory of the Buddha), especially the teachings of Thich Nhat Hahn, best for me earlier in life. I consider myself spiritual, not religious, and have never studied religion or belonged to a religious group. My area of study/profession is scientific in nature, but I have studied and greatly appreciate the arts.

Since I sincerely do not wish to place obstacles in your path, I will write in general terms about my experience. I did separate from my body and was observing my partner and paramedics crouched down in front from a point above and behind my body. I find it fascinating that I didn’t think of it as my body anymore but ‘the body’. There was absolutely no feeling of ownership or belonging to ‘the body’. I didn’t experience emotion as we do in life, but I understood emotion……I observed. There was no sense of time whatsoever……in fact, the scene in front of me was frozen, but when I ‘wanted’ info about the state of ‘the body’ time flowed in front of me. I realized I had the ‘choice’ to come back or proceed ‘onwards’ to something entirely fascinating that I could see through a ‘window/doorway’ in black space (not the Elysian Fields ). I know that joyful discovery will be waiting for me later…… I didn’t think I could find my way back to ‘the body’ if I chose to explore, and I didn’t want to leave my partner and human life yet……I decided I had more to give and explore here. If being reborn to a body is anything like your first birth, it’s no wonder babies are born screaming. It was extremely disorienting and abrupt and felt like I was being tumbled in surf, unable to breathe, not knowing which way was up. Light, sound, pain……sensory overload. If you want to know what the experience felt like this technomusic might give you a taste of the feeling…..

Apotheosis — O Fortuna

My thoughts: I do believe that we have all the tools within us for ‘enlightenment’ or understanding of the universe, but we prize intellectual study too highly in our society. I’ve found for me, greater understanding came by ‘feeling my way through’ and deliberately tamping down my urge to study, my urge to let logic always lead. Everyone will interpret what they see differently……it’s a bit like Charades……meaning can only be determined deep within you, without judgement or preconceived notions, and this skill takes so much practice. Intellect, emotional mind and body must find balance, and then you can really observe what is truly surrounding you.

May you find joy in your journey.
P

 

[Magdlyn]

Hi Zay,

I experienced an NDE approximately a year and a half ago and I view the time I’m living now like a gift from the universe (I now also see very clearly that my life leading up to the NDE was also a miraculous gift). It prompted me to ask myself how I would like to live this ‘bonus life’ and I found myself considering polyamory as a way to live and love moving forward .

My background: I’ve found the philosophical teachings of Buddhism (not the religious doctrine that grew up around the memory of the Buddha), especially the teachings of Thich Nhat Hahn, best for me earlier in life. I consider myself spiritual, not religious, and have never studied religion or belonged to a religious group. My area of study/profession is scientific in nature, but I have studied and greatly appreciate the arts.

Since I sincerely do not wish to place obstacles in your path, I will write in general terms about my experience. I did separate from my body and was observing my partner and paramedics crouched down in front from a point above and behind my body. I find it fascinating that I didn’t think of it as my body anymore but ‘the body’. There was absolutely no feeling of ownership or belonging to ‘the body’. I didn’t experience emotion as we do in life, but I understood emotion……I observed. There was no sense of time whatsoever……in fact, the scene in front of me was frozen, but when I ‘wanted’ info about the state of ‘the body’ time flowed in front of me. I realized I had the ‘choice’ to come back or proceed ‘onwards’ to something entirely fascinating that I could see through a ‘window/doorway’ in black space (not the Elysian Fields ). I know that joyful discovery will be waiting for me later…… I didn’t think I could find my way back to ‘the body’ if I chose to explore, and I didn’t want to leave my partner and human life yet……I decided I had more to give and explore here.

That's fascinating. What a gift.

If being reborn to a body is anything like your first birth, it’s no wonder babies are born screaming. It was extremely disorienting and abrupt

This is just a little nitpick. Babies are firmly in their bodies while gestating. They are not returning to the body as you did. And they are not all born screaming. The screaming comes from the rough handling, the bright lights and loud noises of uncaring people barking orders and being all excited. The first few breaths to expand the lungs may well feel uncomfortable. But from having worked with pregnant and newly-delivered mothers and babies, and being in the homebirth, natural birth movement, I know that if you make sure to not use painkilling drugs or disorienting anesthesia during birth, if you make sure the environment is quiet, that the lights are low as baby emerges and is laid on the mother's belly or breast, the baby will be able to open its eyes and see and smell Mama, feel her warmth, and be calm and comforted in the strange new environment, and may not cry at all, but just gaze into Mama's eyes.

and felt like I was being tumbled in surf, unable to breathe, not knowing which way was up. Light, sound, pain……sensory overload. If you want to know what the experience felt like this technomusic might give you a taste of the feeling…..

Apotheosis — O Fortuna

My thoughts: I do believe that we have all the tools within us for ‘enlightenment’ or understanding of the universe, but we prize intellectual study too highly in our society. I’ve found for me, greater understanding came by ‘feeling my way through’ and deliberately tamping down my urge to study, my urge to let logic always lead. Everyone will interpret what they see differently……it’s a bit like Charades……meaning can only be determined deep within you, without judgement or preconceived notions, and this skill takes so much practice. Intellect, emotional mind and body must find balance, and then you can really observe what is truly surrounding you.

I know I spoke of reading and studying in my last post, but I also agree that there comes a point when books are not necessary. Gnosis is, as Jung understood, a knowing of what the divine is. I don't claim to know, but I do seek it. Gnostics are seekers of gnosis. I have felt the presence of the goddess while on mushrooms and on a few other occasions... I have heard her speak to me. I have felt her ground me.

 

[phoenix]

You’re right Magdlyn……it was foolish of me to use the stereotype……I too have witnessed many births and not all babies cry (although many docs traditionally prefer to hear that sound to let them know the baby’s unlikely to be lethargic). I was using the stereotype to refer to the sensory overload that often happens in bright, sometimes quite noisy, obstetrics units.

P

 

[phoenix]

I am not an obstetrician or obstetrics nurse, but I do know that obstetricians and nurses do care very much about mothers and their babies. I found that those peers who choose this field tend to more openly display joy and caring. Nurses are often (not always) better at displaying that caring than doctors. Unfortunately, doctors are taught a ‘clinical distance’ which is supposed to keep one unemotional for decision making, but, in essence, just puts distance between doctor and ‘patient’. This model is losing credibility (not fast enough) but the teaching is hard to shake since we learn from those who went before us. It’s a tough call for mothers……a more natural birth at home in a calmer, controlled environment vs an obstetrics unit where if something goes wrong unexpectedly (and I’ve seen it go wrong fast) there is immediate help for life-threatening situations to baby or mother.

 

[Zay]

I am kind of a gnostic, like Al. I've read quite a bit of historical criticism of the canonical bible (I have been studying since 2000), as well as the apocrypha, gnostic texts, alternate apocalypses, etc., as well reading about other ancient cultures and religions. My favorite writer on biblical and other ancient history is Richard Carrier. All religions are made up ways for people to deal with our mortality and struggle with moral questions, and just have fun imagining super beings, as we still do in the Marvel Universe. It is quite enjoyable to study it all.

My daughter, who is an evangelical Christian (bless her heart, she has a mental illness called borderline personality disorder, and a literal view of the bible helps her to function), recommended this show to me. I tried to watch one episode and was bored to death. It was very plodding and I didn't care for the extra stuff they threw in on top of the bible story as it is.

Hi Magdlyn,

Thank you for your input on my NDE + polyamorist study. If you are gnostic, then you're not alone, there were as many opinions and flavors of Christians and non-Christians as there are people.

I'm a bit surprised by your reaction, since the very first episode was the calling of Magdalene, suggestive of your own handle. As for the show plodding along, I s'pose it could be viewed as boring by those of a certain age and predisposition/disposition. Not exciting enough to hold your attention from your own racing thoughts. It certainly would have been boring to me when I was younger, and not aliened as real enough according to the eye witness accounts. Like, there was no Barnabys, or Schulas, or Edens, etc etc, in the scriptural accounts, but Peter was married, yet it doesn't mention his wife by name for instance.

There were crowds that by their 100's and 1000's that followed Yeshua around, since he demonstrated real not mythical power, but not many are recorded by name. They wouldn't have believed either if they didn't see him actually do the stuff he did with their own two eyes, and if they didn't, they would have never followed him around as they did otherwise.

There were Roman authorities, Pharisees, Sadducees, and the like, real people, but very few are mentioned by name, and would have been terrified by the power he wielded, yet he only used that power in beneficial ways, not that he couldn't do otherwise, as he demonstrated with a fig tree. Yet being literally tortured to death, he didn't launch at them as he could have. Even I wouldn't be able to do that, although I can be emotionally ice without too much effort.

I'm an art lover, and Jenkins and his cast and crew are masters at their craft fleshing out the characters of those groups so mentioned, even by those whose names are not mentioned in scripture, their art ranks as a form of worship to me. Jenkins is evangelical, I am not.

Your daughter as BPD and I've taken extra note of those that have it. (Most likely she's an ENFP or ESTJ who are susceptible to BPD, since they will have trouble distinguishing what they think from reality, and fantasy from reality as well.)

As for Marvel heroes like Odin, Thor and Loki, I know they are based on the blown up legend Disney characters of blown up legends of historically real people, since I can track my own West Saxon heritage to the Gewisse tribe from southern Denmark, to Baldr, who was murdered by Loki in real life; so I know where Carrier, you and Al are coming from, but prefer Habermas and Strobel (who was atheist, btw) who centered their findings on the 1st century firsthand data rather than on 2nd and 3rdcentury data.

A JAMA article published concluded Yeshua's cause of death was by pericardial effusion, yet was seen literally by 500 people at the same time after his resurrection, something no one could fake. My point was after you cull out all the stuff Jenkins added for plot and story lines, the miracles, attitude and demeanor of Roumie's portrayal of Yeshua is incredibly accurate to the actual history.

 

[Zay]

Hi Zay,

I experienced an NDE approximately a year and a half ago and I view the time I’m living now like a gift from the universe (I now also see very clearly that my life leading up to the NDE was also a miraculous gift). It prompted me to ask myself how I would like to live this ‘bonus life’ and I found myself considering polyamory as a way to live and love moving forward .

My background: I’ve found the philosophical teachings of Buddhism (not the religious doctrine that grew up around the memory of the Buddha), especially the teachings of Thich Nhat Hahn, best for me earlier in life. I consider myself spiritual, not religious, and have never studied religion or belonged to a religious group. My area of study/profession is scientific in nature, but I have studied and greatly appreciate the arts.

Since I sincerely do not wish to place obstacles in your path, I will write in general terms about my experience. I did separate from my body and was observing my partner and paramedics crouched down in front from a point above and behind my body. I find it fascinating that I didn’t think of it as my body anymore but ‘the body’. There was absolutely no feeling of ownership or belonging to ‘the body’. I didn’t experience emotion as we do in life, but I understood emotion……I observed. There was no sense of time whatsoever……in fact, the scene in front of me was frozen, but when I ‘wanted’ info about the state of ‘the body’ time flowed in front of me. I realized I had the ‘choice’ to come back or proceed ‘onwards’ to something entirely fascinating that I could see through a ‘window/doorway’ in black space (not the Elysian Fields ). I know that joyful discovery will be waiting for me later…… I didn’t think I could find my way back to ‘the body’ if I chose to explore, and I didn’t want to leave my partner and human life yet……I decided I had more to give and explore here. If being reborn to a body is anything like your first birth, it’s no wonder babies are born screaming. It was extremely disorienting and abrupt and felt like I was being tumbled in surf, unable to breathe, not knowing which way was up. Light, sound, pain……sensory overload. If you want to know what the experience felt like this technomusic might give you a taste of the feeling…..

Apotheosis — O Fortuna

My thoughts: I do believe that we have all the tools within us for ‘enlightenment’ or understanding of the universe, but we prize intellectual study too highly in our society. I’ve found for me, greater understanding came by ‘feeling my way through’ and deliberately tamping down my urge to study, my urge to let logic always lead. Everyone will interpret what they see differently……it’s a bit like Charades……meaning can only be determined deep within you, without judgement or preconceived notions, and this skill takes so much practice. Intellect, emotional mind and body must find balance, and then you can really observe what is truly surrounding you.

May you find joy in your journey.
P

Hi P

Hi Zay,

I experienced an NDE approximately a year and a half ago and I view the time I’m living now like a gift from the universe (I now also see very clearly that my life leading up to the NDE was also a miraculous gift). It prompted me to ask myself how I would like to live this ‘bonus life’ and I found myself considering polyamory as a way to live and love moving forward .

My background: I’ve found the philosophical teachings of Buddhism (not the religious doctrine that grew up around the memory of the Buddha), especially the teachings of Thich Nhat Hahn, best for me earlier in life. I consider myself spiritual, not religious, and have never studied religion or belonged to a religious group. My area of study/profession is scientific in nature, but I have studied and greatly appreciate the arts.

Since I sincerely do not wish to place obstacles in your path, I will write in general terms about my experience. I did separate from my body and was observing my partner and paramedics crouched down in front from a point above and behind my body. I find it fascinating that I didn’t think of it as my body anymore but ‘the body’. There was absolutely no feeling of ownership or belonging to ‘the body’. I didn’t experience emotion as we do in life, but I understood emotion……I observed. There was no sense of time whatsoever……in fact, the scene in front of me was frozen, but when I ‘wanted’ info about the state of ‘the body’ time flowed in front of me. I realized I had the ‘choice’ to come back or proceed ‘onwards’ to something entirely fascinating that I could see through a ‘window/doorway’ in black space (not the Elysian Fields ). I know that joyful discovery will be waiting for me later…… I didn’t think I could find my way back to ‘the body’ if I chose to explore, and I didn’t want to leave my partner and human life yet……I decided I had more to give and explore here. If being reborn to a body is anything like your first birth, it’s no wonder babies are born screaming. It was extremely disorienting and abrupt and felt like I was being tumbled in surf, unable to breathe, not knowing which way was up. Light, sound, pain……sensory overload. If you want to know what the experience felt like this technomusic might give you a taste of the feeling…..

Apotheosis — O Fortuna

My thoughts: I do believe that we have all the tools within us for ‘enlightenment’ or understanding of the universe, but we prize intellectual study too highly in our society. I’ve found for me, greater understanding came by ‘feeling my way through’ and deliberately tamping down my urge to study, my urge to let logic always lead. Everyone will interpret what they see differently……it’s a bit like Charades……meaning can only be determined deep within you, without judgement or preconceived notions, and this skill takes so much practice. Intellect, emotional mind and body must find balance, and then you can really observe what is truly surrounding you.

May you find joy in your journey.
P

Hi Phoenix,

Bingo! Thanks for responding. I'm busy at the moment with prior commitments but will get back soon.

Zay

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Zay,

I agree with your sentiment that everyone dies alone. No matter how many people are standing around my bedside, I will have to venture into that long dark tunnel by myself.

Humanity has come up with a number of ideas over the centuries, some more useful than others. This includes a belief in various gods and goddesses, which I interpret as a way of explaining and coping with life in this scary, if also beautiful, world. Religion was another of those ideas. Not so useful, at least mainstream Christianity isn't so useful. I'll grant you that one can believe in a God/dess without being religious.

I would argue that we do indeed bring ourselves into existence, just not consciously, and we do it with the help and prompting of a sperm cell and an egg cell.

Just some thoughts,
Kevin T.

 

[kdt26417]

Here's a (fun? interesting? problematic? you decide) mental exercise. Consider the following:

• a human being
• a cat
• a dog
• a horse
• a cow
• a fish
• a rat
• a spider
• a honeybee
• an ant
• a mosquito
• a cockroach
• a virus
• a blood cell
• a cancer cell
• a tree
• a carrot
• a robot
• a calculator
• a rock
• a planet

Which of the above will have an afterlife? Which might? Which should, and why? Does it matter? Why or why not?

 

[Zay]

Hi Zay,

I experienced an NDE approximately a year and a half ago and I view the time I’m living now like a gift from the universe (I now also see very clearly that my life leading up to the NDE was also a miraculous gift). It prompted me to ask myself how I would like to live this ‘bonus life’ and I found myself considering polyamory as a way to live and love moving forward .

My background: I’ve found the philosophical teachings of Buddhism (not the religious doctrine that grew up around the memory of the Buddha), especially the teachings of Thich Nhat Hahn, best for me earlier in life. I consider myself spiritual, not religious, and have never studied religion or belonged to a religious group. My area of study/profession is scientific in nature, but I have studied and greatly appreciate the arts.

Since I sincerely do not wish to place obstacles in your path, I will write in general terms about my experience. I did separate from my body and was observing my partner and paramedics crouched down in front from a point above and behind my body. I find it fascinating that I didn’t think of it as my body anymore but ‘the body’. There was absolutely no feeling of ownership or belonging to ‘the body’. I didn’t experience emotion as we do in life, but I understood emotion……I observed. There was no sense of time whatsoever……in fact, the scene in front of me was frozen, but when I ‘wanted’ info about the state of ‘the body’ time flowed in front of me. I realized I had the ‘choice’ to come back or proceed ‘onwards’ to something entirely fascinating that I could see through a ‘window/doorway’ in black space (not the Elysian Fields ). I know that joyful discovery will be waiting for me later…… I didn’t think I could find my way back to ‘the body’ if I chose to explore, and I didn’t want to leave my partner and human life yet……I decided I had more to give and explore here. If being reborn to a body is anything like your first birth, it’s no wonder babies are born screaming. It was extremely disorienting and abrupt and felt like I was being tumbled in surf, unable to breathe, not knowing which way was up. Light, sound, pain……sensory overload. If you want to know what the experience felt like this technomusic might give you a taste of the feeling…..

Apotheosis — O Fortuna

My thoughts: I do believe that we have all the tools within us for ‘enlightenment’ or understanding of the universe, but we prize intellectual study too highly in our society. I’ve found for me, greater understanding came by ‘feeling my way through’ and deliberately tamping down my urge to study, my urge to let logic always lead. Everyone will interpret what they see differently……it’s a bit like Charades……meaning can only be determined deep within you, without judgement or preconceived notions, and this skill takes so much practice. Intellect, emotional mind and body must find balance, and then you can really observe what is truly surrounding you.

May you find joy in your journey.
P

You wrote-> Since I sincerely do not wish to place obstacles in your path

Be yourself dear. I've trained myself well to be able to flow around the obstacles<g>, since I facilitate Qigong, Tai Chi and Tai chi chih in my area. I'm a practitioner of yoga, and multiple forms of meditation. It's also step 11 of any 12 step/Jungian group as a way of life. By the way. I like your Thich Nhat Hanh. He's a gentle soul and a man of peace. I serve the Prince of Peace. So be yourself.

I'd like to thank you for responding to my query. Some time ago I found out that there are various patterns that do exist when people share common experiences from similar backgrounds, they generally share a lot other things in common as well, some really unusual thoughts and beliefs as well. If you've been following the thread, I apply a lot of science to my spirituality, and live out my Jungian principles independently of anyone else, as all Jungians do, with a live and let live approach meaning if you want to share you share, and if you don't you don't, and we're all gonna love you either way until or unless you do feel comfortable in doing so,.... or not. With that said, I gotta say, in what you've said thus far you're ringing bells with me, just in unexpected ways like the science and art things. I've never had an NDE, but the door/window thing is always on my mind. So Kev may be right about the brain activity thing after death, but I don't see how with a flatline EEG. First things first. The gist of this thread was to find out if polyamorist people share a similar NDE experiences or not, since I've seen NDE patterns of involving those walking through fields, and tunnels of light, being surrounded by loved ones or a spiritual guide like Buddha or Jesus, etc. The best one yet was an atheist who went whoosh straight to a presence that exuded just love, it wasn't what he expected, and it wasn't just love, he knew that presence was madly in love with us all, then whoosh he was back in his body. But you're the first one I've come across that said the door/window thing that I know for. So:

Have you always known you were poly, at some level, even if you've tried to run from it, hide it, bury it, suppress it, or deny it? (Because I went through all that<g>) If not then when did you know?

Are you able to remember what happened just prior to your NDE experience? Also if you know you were flatlined and for how long?

Next, the door/window thing, if you can, could you describe it in a bit more detail?

Joy in your journey too
Namaste
Zay

 

[Magdlyn]

Hi Magdlyn,

Thank you for your input on my NDE + polyamorist study.

You're welcome.

If you are gnostic, then you're not alone, there were as many opinions and flavors of Christians and non-Christians as there are people.

Yes, thank you. I didn't feel alone.

I'm a bit surprised by your reaction, since the very first episode was the calling of Magdalene, suggestive of your own handle.

I didn't see the first episode. I just watched some of the first one that popped up when I sought out the show on Angel Network, and it seemed to involve the male apostles.

I can only imagine how they said Mary was from Magdala. I don't even think that is correct. Her name comes from the Hebrew word "migdal," which means tower, perhaps Tower of Faith, since she was the only apostle that really got Jesus on a deep level.

Edit: I don't want to assume, so I will watch the first episode to see if it is any more enjoyable or life-enhancing than the random ep I already watched.

By the way, I'll be upfront that, unlike your assertions below, I do not believe any of the gospels are fully true historic records. That is not how history was written in the ancient world. I should think you'd know that! The intent of so-called histories at the time, in those long ago days, was to present a theme or moral lesson. So even if there were germs of truth, real people whose existence could be backed up by independent records, etc., many, most or all the speeches were purely fictional from the minds of the authors of the texts. They weren't there taking shorthand as events were happening. lol (Much less did they have the ability to record things as we have had since the late 19th century.) This is screamingly obvious in Acts, especially, but it is all throughout the gospels as well.

As for the show plodding along, I s'pose it could be viewed as boring by those of a certain age. Not exciting enough to hold your attention from your own racing thoughts.

It certainly would have been boring to me when I was younger

I'm 67. I found it boring and pedestrian. My thoughts aren't necessarily racing, but they are more interesting and of more depth. I told you I've been studying Christianity since 2000 (not to mention Egyptian and early Hebrew/Judaic mytho-religion, as well as the Babylonian, Assyrian, Canaanite, Persian, Greek and Roman mytho-religions. I've also done a bit of a course on the Mormon and Celtic mythologies/religions, Hinduism and a bit of Buddhism. I know something about South Pacific Island mythologies, as well. I'm not a kid.

There were crowds that by their 100's and 1000's that followed Yeshua around

Fiction. Hagiography.

since he demonstrated real, not mythical power, but not many are recorded by name. They wouldn't have believed either, if they didn't see him actually do the stuff he did with their own two eyes, and if they didn't, they would have never followed him around as they did otherwise.

That sure sounds like a CS Lewis/Strobel "either-or" assertion. Sure they might have believed. People can be very gullible. They believe in all kinds of outrageous stories. There were "magicians" then as now. There was also word of mouth that may have convinced them. There is also such a thing as hallucinations, known as visions (see Paul, Elijah, etc.).

There were Roman authorities, Pharisees, Sadducees, and the like, real people, but very few are mentioned by name, and would have been terrified by the power he wielded,

So you say. This is not scientific historical criticism. It's your feelings. You have been taken in by rhetoric and assertion and faith in the unseen, for some reason, despite your interest in science.

I think the things Nero and Caligula did were probably quite terrifying, and are attested to in multiple places.

yet he only used that power in beneficial ways, not that he couldn't do otherwise, as he demonstrated with a fig tree.

Oh my gosh, the fig tree story is merely symbolic of the Hebrews not believing Jesus was their messiah. Why be so literal? Jesus was made to speak in parables to hint at deeper meanings.

Yet being literally tortured to death, he didn't launch at them as he could have. Even I wouldn't be able to do that, although I can be emotionally ice without too much effort.

lol

I'm an art lover, and Jenkins and his cast and crew are masters at their craft fleshing out the characters of those groups so mentioned, even by those whose names are not mentioned in scripture, their art ranks as a form of worship to me.

That's nice for you. I prefer a more scientific approach. However, I do hold a BFA as well.

Jenkins is evangelical, I am not. Your daughter as BPD and I've taken extra note of those that have it. (Most likely she's an ENFP or ESTJ who are susceptible to BPD,) ( since they will have trouble distinguishing what they think from reality, and fantasy from reality as well.) As for Marvel heroes like Odin, Thor and Loki, I know they are based on the

blown up legend Disney characters

of blown up legends of historically real people,

Real people, you say? OK...

since I can track my own West Saxon heritage to the Gewisse tribe from southern Denmark, to Baldr, who was murdered by Loki in real life.

What?

so I know where Carrier, you and Al are coming from,

No, you really don't. If you read "On the Historicity of Jesus" by Richard Carrier, you might then know his work. If that book is too hard and long for you (as I suspect, since TV shows are your way of worshiping), you could try the shorter version of the same information, "Jesus from Outer Space." If that's still too hard, you could read some articles on his website. richardcarrier.info

but prefer Habermas and Strobel

Oh, not Strobel! lol I did read that book, The Case for Christ, and it was terrible, poorly written and condescending. Mere assertions of belief, and fear-mongering, and completely unconvincing (as is CS Lewis, so don't go there).

(who was atheist, btw) who centered their findings on the 1st century firsthand data rather than on 2nd and 3rdcentury data.

There was no canon until the beginning of the 4th century, at the earliest. Have you read the Shepherd of Hermas? It was EXTREMELY popular in the very early Christian community.

There is no "firsthand" data except for Paul. And he knew nothing of a Jesus who walked the earth.

All I really need from the New Testament canon are the true letters of Paul, and Mark. Everything else is "against Mark," (aka against heresy; "Matthew" and "Luke" were mere corrections of Mark's simplicity and his Jesus' hidden message. John had a whole other agenda, timeline, stories, etc.). Revelation is a revenge story and only one of many apocalypses of the era.

A JAMA article published concluded Yeshua's cause of death was by pericardial effusion, yet was seen literally by 500 people at the same time after his resurrection, something no one could fake.

No one could fake 500 people seeing the risen Christ? Perhaps. But anyone could tell a fantastic story of such, with no alternate writings confirming it, in a gullible superstitious time, as is the case. Thank goodness, we have known better since at least the 18th century.

My point was, after you cull out all the stuff Jenkins added for plot and story lines, the miracles, attitude and demeanor of Roumie's portrayal of Yeshua is incredibly accurate to the actual history.

That's if you believe anything was actual history in the Bible, and I guess if you enjoy bad historical fiction.

 

[kdt26417]

Re: "So Kev may be right about the brain activity thing after death, but I don't see how with a flatline EEG" ... the hallucination/memory change would take place immediately before and/or after the flatlining.

 

[Al99]

Zay - I will share one brief story with you, although it is not an NDE per se. It does not represent "proof" by any stretch but there is a somewhat interesting anomaly in the account. When I was a freshman in college, my favorite aunt passed. She had helped raise me at one point due to a family situation, so we were quite close, and I certainly mourned her passing. A few months after she passed, I had an extraordinarily vivid dream. In the dream, I found myself in a pitch black void. However, I could see a light in the distance. So I went to explore the light. At the light, I found a staircase, which I ascended. At the top, I found myself at a landing. In front of me was a large heavy ornate wooden door, firmly locked. However, to my left was a large window (that I realized was a two way mirror - I could see in but I was not visible). Through the window, I saw my Aunt (as I remembered her in her prime) who was happily working in a flower garden (one of her great loves). The dream ended and I felt like that I had been given a glimpse into the afterlife to assure me that my Aunt was actually alive and well. However, I was also a bit of a college agnostic at the time (have rejected my Fundamentalist Evangelical indoctrination), and thought it more likely to have been a dream my brain concocted to console me over the death of my aunt. But I did discuss with one of my mentors of the day, who held a doctorate in psychology (but was also philosophically open minded). When I described the dream, he asked me if I had read or heard of the NDE scenario. I had not. (Raymond Moody's "Life After Life' had been published, but I was not aware of it). So the interesting thing is that I had this dream which included a version of the classic NDE scenario with absolutely no knowledge of the scenario - and obviously none of the type of dying brain stimulation that some believe is the source of the NDE scenario. In and of itself, it is a relatively minor event - although it became only one piece of a puzzle that unfolded over a lifetime.

Al