Sorting thoughts before a possible date...

Tinwen

Active member
Hi everyone,
I have been around this forum for some time now, and I figure people are really helpful, and I would use few tips now.

Thing is, I am really inexperienced when it comes to early dating or just having a crush on someone, I have had three partners throughout my life and in each case they picked me rather than me picking them.

So, in autumn me and Idealist were attending regular tantra evenings. There I met this man (I'll call him Joker for the purpose of this post) I am kind of attracted to. He is somewhat older then me, like 10-15 years, I don't know. As these evening contain various forms of intimacy, from talking to erotic touch (going as far as all people involved are comfortable with), we have been close on several occasions, two of them I would even call short bdsm-sessions. At some point we exchanged contact info and connected on facebook, and chatted a bit.

I finished school on Fryday and Joker is asking me out for diner to "celebrate", and I accepted. I think this might be a date, although I am really not sure what goes on in his mind. Maybe he is just as unsure about me, after all he knows about Idealist, and he knows that we are open, and he probably has no experience with polyamory :)

I am kind of unsure about my own thoughts and intentions with Joker. In the big picture, I am looking for a primary partner. (Idealist lives with Meta and it is hardly possible to get more entwined there, although we are pretty close.) In the mid-scale I might be leaving for phd abroad in summer, so then I might be leaving all this behind. In the small scale, I really am intrigued to get to know Joker better, he is an interesting man, and I am physically attracted to him. I am afraid I might be on the verge of falling in love though, and I am not sure I want that. Last time I fell into NRE (with Idealist) it was kind of an unstoppable emotional force, and it seems to have lasted nearly two years, so I might want to choose wisely early on. Large part of what concerns me is the age difference. I think I would like to find a lifelong relationship if possible, and I figured I would like someone closer to my age for that. Or... should I just let relationships take whatever path they wish?

I know I cannot discern a crush from something with a potential to become more serious. I guess I am over stressing here. I fear that if I don't resolve the conflict, I will just get dragged along into other peoples ideas about life. Any tips on how to get more clarity?
 

kdt26417

Official Greeter
Hi Tinwen,

I think that if you keep seeing Joker, you will probably fall in love with him. So, if you don't want to fall in love with anyone new right now, I guess breaking it off is the only thing to do.

I'm inclined to vote for you to keep seeing him and take that chance, but I am something of a romantic. Maybe this is a situation where practical concerns take precedence?

In the end, only you can decide.
Regards,
Kevin T.
 

GalaGirl

Well-known member
How you want to go is up to you. So... decide how you want to go.

1) You want relationships to unfold however
2) You are looking for a specific thing

Either way? To me this is the point to get clarity.

I finished school on Fryday and Joker is asking me out for diner to "celebrate", and I accepted. I think this might be a date, although I am really not sure what goes on in his mind.

Before accepting, you ask "Just so I am clear before I accept, is this like a friend date, or is this like a DATE date?"

If you aren't sure what is going on in his mind? Since you are not a mind reader, you have to actually ASK.

So go ahead and ask and keep life easier on you.

GL!
Galagirl
 

Tinwen

Active member
Thank you both :)

Before accepting, you ask "Just so I am clear before I accept, is this like a friend date, or is this like a DATE date?"

If you aren't sure what is going on in his mind? Since you are not a mind reader, you have to actually ASK.
So I guess this one is easy, in theory at least. I read it in the morning, and it didn't really feel like the best idea now (I already accepted, and over the internet, I might just get a joke from Joker O:)). But I calmed down during the day. Yes, I will just ask when we meet in person. We need to get clarity either way, continuing as friends, or thinking about dating, so it will be good to initiate the conversation at some point during the evening.
 

Tinwen

Active member
Hell, poly relationships are difficult.

I went to sushi with Joker. It was a very nice evening, and in the end I managed to start the direct talk about expectations. Seems like he is interested in whatever experience develops, probably more casual intimacy and experimenting. At some point I said that I do want an encouter, but that I might consider it a terrible idea the next morning, so I will let him know later. He understands that.

Meanwhile Idealist is feeling bad over this date (and trying to make me responsible for his feelings, bleh... how long is he into poly and into spirituality? I guess he is forgetting all he learned.), showing how he is absolutelly not ready for me to have another partner or play with someone else. Makes me want to continue experimenting with Joker just to get through this with Idealist and have those issues out of the way once something more serious commes up.

I am so glad now that I have been "procrastinating" on this forum all autumn, because now the "collective wisdom" serves me well. Of course I want to support Idealist and am worried about how he is. But I am also able to see his insecurities for what they are, and can stand ground to tell him clearly that my (possible) relationships are not about him. I think I could not do that a year ago. He is no longer my main source about open relationships, which really helps, so thanks for this forum. But hell, poly relationships are difficult.
 

kdt26417

Official Greeter
Sorry to hear about this fly in the ointment. I hope Idealist gets a grip on his insecurities.

Glad the outing with Joker went well. Sushi! I'm hungry and jealous. :)
 

Tinwen

Active member
Sorry to hear about this fly in the ointment. I hope Idealist gets a grip on his insecurities.

Glad the outing with Joker went well. Sushi! I'm hungry and jealous. :)
Yes, thank you, we are better already (after the third phonecall :eek:)... turns out we had another not-so-easy topic open, and it kind of mixed for him.

Sorry to make you jealous, LOL :D
 

Tinwen

Active member
Turned out I thought we were better.
Not particularly happy with the last two days. We had a fight/discussion with Idealist for hours, two days in a row, and I am not even sure what that was all about - different expectations in relationships would be the closest, but this was nowhere near to clarifying assumptions and seeking for a compromise, more like both assuming the other just should understand, blaming and getting deffensive. Like, I comforted him on the phone right after the date, but then we went swimming and ... how the hack did that discussion start again? Not even sure. Probably something like him telling me I was distant (when in fact I was tired after the date and after comforting him) and that I had to hinge well (as if I hadn't done more then I could already), and me telling him he was wrong accusing me and that he should not control my other relationships anyway.
I agreed before that I would ask before having intimacy, so I am ok with some degree of control, but back then I assumed he owns his anxieties, and that this is comming from a place of good will. Like he wants me to ask to feel valued as my dom, but if there is no good reason to say no the default answer would be yes. I kind of lost that trust seeing his overreaction to that dinner date.
The on-going discussion is my fault too, since I cannot stand closing such a topic while we are in a conflict.

What came out early in the discussions, in my eyes, he was being completely unrealistic. His ideal picture is, that a potential partner should come and ask to "borrow" me, thus being subordinate to him. I told him any man I could be interested in won't possibly do that, so I hope he remembers that one at least. Another thing he told me was, that he wants to have a close relationship with my partner as well. Hell yeah, how kind to anticipate the other persons consent. He doesn't seem to be able to grasp this one. My default is to expect partners not to interact, and anything above that is a bonus. I think they could, but I will not demand this. I cannot even explain this, he gets defensive long before I finish a sentence. He thinks I am taking away from him (which, as we all now, can happen with finite resources to some degree, though I don't think it would be much in the particular scenario at hand), and won't put up with it.
He keeps telling me to bring Joker over for a threesome or for discussion at least. I am not opposed, but commeon, he is not even a partner/FWB yet, I didn't tell Joker a clear yes, and even if I did it would be a yes to "we want to experiment with intimacy, so let's try and see where it leads us". I don't feel it appropriate to ask someone to establish communication with my preexisting partners if (me & potential partner) don't even know if we are suited for each other and what the shape should be.
In the end, I understood that Idealist
  1. in the first place wants all partners to really cooperate and share (which is a fine goal)
  2. thinks that anything but coordination between the two men is not managable and will tear me appart (probably true, but sounds to me too much like cooperation on his terms, wtf)
  3. thinks that me having all the responsibilities of a hinge and deciding about my relationships all on my own will destroy our DS dynamics (IMO just if he takes it personally, or I don't know, I asked over and over and he wouldn't explain to me in terms I would understand, wtf)
I am sure he wouldn't agree with the formulation of what I took away.
After me getting quite desperate and one more night he managed to come back to his understanding self. Could hear me at least on the point that I don't think it's a good idea to try to build connection between the two men before I start building connection to Joker myself. Our behaviour got back from fighting to loving.
However I feel I have lost. I really cannot be a hinge managing two relationships under these conditions. I lost part of the trust in myself, the trust to lead it well as a hinge.
On top of that, what angers me the whole time is, that sorting out things with Idealist, I had no room to decide what I actually want to do with Joker. Maybe it's irrelevant, because I cannot bring him into this dynamics anyway, not as FWB or anything else. Or, I have to give over the vessel to those two man, hoping they can communicate. Fuck that, this possibility is attractive to my submissive self and it may really be the one that would work best with all my panicky emotions, but this is not the way I think things should work. Maybe I can find a clever way to negotiate a better arrangement with Idealist once emotions calm down, but this discussion was all fucked up. Something like that didn't happen to us for a long time, and if, then we always solved it quicker. I am going away for the weekend, which is probably good. I have to sleep a few times more on the anger.
 

Magdlyn

Well-known member
Hi Tinwen, I read you other longish thread to remind myself of your background... But to confirm, did you say you were raised in a religious household with negativity towards sex? Were you also repressed as far as making your own choices in life?

Anyway. You are confused, obviously. You seem subby, but at the same time, strain against your bonds.

Did I get it right, you are collared? Is that something you were 24/7, or just for play sessions?

It's a good idea when you are collared, to have some kind of contract with your Dom, with your agreements defined. And your personal duties listed. You've been with Idealist a year and this hasn't been done?

And now he is insisting if you plan to date others, they must approach him, as your owner, first? This is very formal protocol and assumes that the others who might wish to be with you are also into D/s to the extent this would seem acceptable to them.

I know you've had a lot of growth in how you view and deal in relationships since being with Idealist. But you are obviously, still quite a passive indecisive person. This is not a dis of you. My partner is the same way. She is now 38 and in the 7 years we have been together, she has made great strides in self esteem and functioning, but she does sometimes still swirl in indecision and procrastination. She has been a slave to two Dominants, and had some non-D/s but kinky relationships. She and I are equals, although I am 22 years older and help her with decisions when she asks me.

Your relationship with Idealist has its limits. He is partnered. His partner is jealous of you. Yuck! Your parents, with whom you live, do not approve of Idealist (for some reason) and so he is not welcome in your home. You are limited to public play dates and the tantra space.

It's fine to be subby and seek a Dom to help you shape your life. This is a way of being mentored... and it can be something that is less needed as you grow into your own power. But maybe you need a Dom (or just a Top at least) who has a home you are welcome in, where you can feel at home, welcome, relaxed.

Or maybe if you go ahead and pursue your PhD, you won't have much time for relationships, and this will be somewhat moot for a while. But pursuing your educational goals might do a good deal for increasing your self esteem and feeling of personal integrity and power.
 

Tinwen

Active member
Hi Tinwen, I read you other longish thread to remind myself of your background... But to confirm, did you say you were raised in a religious household with negativity towards sex? Were you also repressed as far as making your own choices in life?
Hi Magdlyn, thank you very much for the effort :)
I was thinking about starting a blog so that the info is more in one place, but I didn't so far.

We are not religious, but the attitude to sex was indeed... well, taboo at best, I never heared much about it except for getting a book when I was twelve and the "allways use a condom" warning. There would certainly be a very negative view of any casual sex. More like having any sex outside of a marrige was unnecessary and irresponsible.
Today, my mum knows I am into kink (which she probably kind of accepted as a fact after internal struggle) and tantra (she doesn't understand what that is). Polyamory is the worst part, she thinks Idealist having two partners means automatically he is abusing us (and he cannot really love, it never works etc., all the basic mono misunderstanding. The Ds part obviously doesn't help either). I sometimes still struggle to get her view out of my head.
Anyway. You are confused, obviously. You seem subby, but at the same time, strain against your bonds.
You're right. Maybe it's just that.
I think I have some not-so-submissive parts as well. Maybe I am going too far in being submissive.
Did I get it right, you are collared? Is that something you were 24/7, or just for play sessions?

It's a good idea when you are collared, to have some kind of contract with your Dom, with your agreements defined. And your personal duties listed. You've been with Idealist a year and this hasn't been done?
I am collared. I had a play collar, and quite newly I got a locking one I can wear 24/7.

We have no formal contract, we don't really tend to appreciate written laws and inflexible agreements (maybe it is a mistake in this case, I don't know). I do follow his wishes more often then not, but we have very little rules in place. The collar is more of a message: "I love you and you cannot do anything about it."
But we do have some emails summarizing the discusion about the meaning of the collar. I did agree to ask before I can be submissive to others there and then. I read the email now, and I feel ashamed promising something and not following through very well. I guess the agreement is not clear enough, especially not stating exactly under which circumstances I should ask.
But also, as I said in my last post, when agreeing to it I thought he was fine with me having partners (he told me I could find a partner multiple times during the relationship). I didn't expect he would lose his temper over a dinner date. I thought he would only say no for a good reason.

And now he is insisting if you plan to date others, they must approach him, as your owner, first? This is very formal protocol and assumes that the others who might wish to be with you are also into D/s to the extent this would seem acceptable to them.
Exactly, too many assumptions about the other person. I didn't agree to that, so it became more of a wish for a close relationship with the metamour.
Combined with the demand for me to ask to be intimate (and the prospective partner to accept that), I think this is the DS version of a unicorn.

Your relationship with Idealist has its limits. He is partnered. His partner is jealous of you. Yuck! Your parents, with whom you live, do not approve of Idealist (for some reason) and so he is not welcome in your home. You are limited to public play dates and the tantra space.
Thankfully the privacy issue has evolved a little since I wrote in the other thread in October. Idealist comes to my home (I live on another floor than my parents, so it's not necessary to meet them), which helps, and I come to his (if he is alone or if I feel like seeing Meta - since I hold my boundaries on spending little time with her, we are usually ok). We know that we must create enough alone space-time ;).

It's fine to be subby and seek a Dom to help you shape your life. This is a way of being mentored... and it can be something that is less needed as you grow into your own power. But maybe you need a Dom (or just a Top at least) who has a home you are welcome in, where you can feel at home, welcome, relaxed.
Yes, I think this is what makes this subject so touchy. I do need to build my own home home, preferably with someone :( One of the reasons that makes me want to seek a partner (and one of the reasons to be wary of age difference). Anyway, I must get my work/finances in order first.

I think Idealist is still half-caught in the dream that I could come to his home. ("Idealist", you know? Living in ideas, rather then reality, sometimes... the charming aspect of this quality is, that sometimes the least likely things work out well.) I guess I have an (unrealistic) dream as well, hoping that I can meet someone will be my primary, and that I don't have to leave Idealist entirely :(

Pursuing your educational goals might do a good deal for increasing your self esteem and feeling of personal integrity and power.
I hope, but school has been a major source of self-esteem to me for far too long. Science covers such a small area of life. I guess I will have to make time for other skills as well.

I am better, no longer that angry, but still confused. The weekend was fine but tiring. I am not making any decisions with Joker (my head says it's nonsense to be dating him anyway), nor having any discussions with Idealist, until I get good sleep.
 

Tinwen

Active member
Tl;dr of the previous post, which got long and off topic

I am colared by Idealist, but we don't have a formal contract. I did agree to ask before sharing my intimacy with others, but there and then I expected more authonomy and his good will to support me in getting experience and seeking a partner.

We are for sure not going to live together anytime soon, because I don't get on that well with Meta. I do need a home, I want to seek a partner to build it with (ok, if there is no one, I will do it alone). Idealist probably still hopes, that he could bring us all to live together.
Magdlyn made me realise, that this is one of the main things why the subject of other relationships is so difficult for both of us.
 
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I think there's a big difference between YOU asking prior to intimacy with another partner and YOUR PARTNER having to ask your Dom for permission. Any new person you date has no obligation to be involved in your current relationship, and may be very turned off by that. Of course, if you want a new partner to have to consult your Dom for permission, then that's the "price of admission" to date you. But I think there needs to be a better negotiation of expectations in regards to how new partners are handled, what the actual line in the sand is for when permission is sought (as you noted, you thought it was sex, he freaked out over a date).

While yes, a formal contract might be more than what you guys are interested in from a "rules" perspective, at least going over one might help you to walk through some of those expectations. And realistically, no matter what you negotiate, if any party becomes uncomfortable or changes their mind, there's nothing stopping either of you from seeking re-negotiations as things change.

Ultimately, if you know that you can't live with him and want to seek out another partner to be a potential primary, then he's going to have to accept that their will be limits to what his role as your Dom can take and how much control/power he is given.

As someone who's a switch, I just started dating someone who I hope will eventually fill a Dom role in my life. But my primary, and likely future live-in partner is my sub when we're actually doing D/s stuff (we're not 24/7). Because of that, I'll have to negotiate with any future Dom where his power starts and stops, because I have no intention of making my Dom, my boyfriend's Dom as well (especially since my b/f isn't into dudes anyway) and I won't allow any of my partners to dictate the terms of my other relationships.

You just need to think about it and decide for yourself how you want your relationships to intersect and impact each other.
 

Magdlyn

Well-known member
In the 7 years miss pixi and I have been together, it's been known that she would like to find a Master, but one who would accept she is poly, she is my life partner, and she is free to also date anyone else she wants. One just needs to have a clear idea of what one wants, and keep to one's standards, not try to fit into someone else's ideas for one's life.

Of course, having these expectations does narrow her dating pool. It's only in the last year or so, she has found a Dom type who provides what she seeks. She sees him 2-3 times a month for an overnight. He lives in Boston, she goes to his place. He and I haven't met, he seems to not want or need that. It's OK by me. I had met some of her previous guys, had dinner with them etc., but her current Master is introverted. She really has fun with him and he has helped her self esteem, so I'm pleased with that! He gives her certain assignments to do when they aren't together. For example, she wants to get stronger and lose a bit of weight, so he bought her a Fit Bit and monitors her daily steps online. It's a nice motivation for her.

So, just because you are a sub does not mean you need to live for your Dom's goals and needs. Yours are every bit as important. If it pleases you to please Him, great. There's a difference between a sub and a doormat. A good Master values his precious sub and treats her like the wonderful person she is.
 

Tinwen

Active member
Thank you both for the answers :)

I think there's a big difference between YOU asking prior to intimacy with another partner and YOUR PARTNER having to ask your Dom for permission. Any new person you date has no obligation to be involved in your current relationship, and may be very turned off by that.
Yes, indeed. It would be very hard for me to separate relationships completly, like not being able to take both partners to the same event or talk about one in front of the other, but I have no intention to demand they should be involved in the power dynamics too. Yuck.
... there needs to be a better negotiation of expectations in regards to how new partners are handled...
...no matter what you negotiate, if any party becomes uncomfortable or changes their mind, there's nothing stopping either of you from seeking re-negotiations as things change...
...he's going to have to accept that their will be limits to what his role as your Dom can take and how much control/power he is given...

You just need to think about it and decide for yourself how you want your relationships to intersect and impact each other.
Yes, we should negotiate (and the discussions are going on). My issue is, I don't know how to keep communication effective and open. We seem to hurt each other with every other sentence, because we are unable to disagree on anything important. We blame, we get defensive, etc. DS dynamics often seems to be the issue, but really, I am sure there are plenty "vanilla" couples experiencing the same.
Suppose I do decide what I want, and it is incompatible with his idea (which it is, at least in some details) -- how do I communicate, to have the best chance of being understood? How do I tell him "look, this is not aligned with me, I cannot do it" without him hearing that I want to leave, I am questioning his dominance, I am being mean...?

So, just because you are a sub does not mean you need to live for your Dom's goals and needs. Yours are every bit as important. If it pleases you to please Him, great. There's a difference between a sub and a doormat. A good Master values his precious sub and treats her like the wonderful person she is.
A good master does this... if he isn't all overwhelmed by the fear that his pet might find someone else. Hence the problem above, how do I communicate my wishes in an effective way?

I don't help all this by not being quick enough to realize my limits. We talk, I agree to something, then two hours (or two weeks) later I realize there was this red flag in our conversation which I just didn't find so important at that time, and that I cannot keep what I said. And I throw back a not-at-all submissive "hey, I do not like this red flag (how comes you don't understand, how this impacts others)", and he gets defensive like "what red flag, thats not a red flag/you don't understand this/this must be my way, becase it's the right way". I cannot blame him for getting defensive in this case, of course.
 
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GalaGirl

Well-known member
Magdyln said:
There's a difference between a sub and a doormat. A good Master values his precious sub and treats her like the wonderful person she is.

QFT.

Tinwen said:
Maybe I am going too far in being submissive.

I think you might be.


Tinwen said:
A good master does this... if he isn't all overwhelmed by the fear that his pet might find someone else

I think a person wanting to BECOME a good master could work on his own fear issues before making himself available as a dom. Repair his own hole.

(Making sure you are healthy and fit to dom before making yourself available to dom) is kind of like (making sure you are fit to date before putting yourself out there as available to date.)

I have a recently divorced friend who keeps bombing at dating because he's doing it much too soon. He's not healed from the divorce at all. He's all blah and stuff. Then he gets even more blah when his potentials don't pan out because they pick up on his divorce blah and don't want to deal in it. He's not listening to us when we tell him instead of seeking a person to "fill the hole she left behind" -- he FIRST needs to repair himself and his hole on his own. THEN date new people. Nobody wants to take on a case load. At least... nobody healthy themselves would want to.

Could these help you figure out what you are seeking in a dom and what you want from being a sub?

The New Topping Book

The New Bottoming Book

This part?

Tinwen said:
My issue is, I don't know how to keep communication effective and open. We seem to hurt each other with every other sentence, because we are unable to disagree on anything important. We blame, we get defensive, etc. DS dynamics often seems to be the issue, but really, I am sure there are plenty "vanilla" couples experiencing the same.

As a sub, don't loose your sense of self and get enmeshed with your dom so that it becomes the land of "we-ness." That's not good for you, esp if you lose the ability to see if your dom is a healthy person or not. Some kinky people are really great -- but some are not. Abuse can happen in kink. It isn't like kink is magically "abuse proof." Like anywhere else, there will be some people there who are just NOT "nice people."

All that "we" up above also does not line up with this next part.

Tinwen said:
Suppose I do decide what I want, and it is incompatible with his idea (which it is, at least in some details) -- how do I communicate, to have the best chance of being understood? How do I tell him "look, this is not aligned with me, I cannot do it" without him hearing that I want to leave, I am questioning his dominance, I am being mean...?

I am not seeing where you are blaming or being defensive. You seem to be doing your end of the communication job and communicating what you are not up for. Do you also communicate what you ARE up for? Paint the complete picture map.

Do you do plan to do "colors" for communicating DURING? When exploring things you are not sure on but willing to see?

  • Green = Go
  • Yellow - proceed with caution
  • Red = Stop to check in. Might continue. Might not.
  • Black = Abort mission immediately. Game over.

(This assumes you are verbal when bottoming. I can do "colors" only to a point. )

Let's look at that again with an eye to his behaviors:

Tinwen said:
Suppose I do decide what I want, and it is incompatible with his idea (which it is, at least in some details) -- how do I communicate, to have the best chance of being understood? How do I tell him "look, this is not aligned with me, I cannot do it" without him hearing that I want to leave, I am questioning his dominance, I am being mean...?

In that bit I mostly see HIM taking things personally, assuming a bunch of things, feeling yucky because of his assuming thoughts, then acting out at you because he's made himself feel yucky. He doesn't seem to realize that he is the one doing the bit in parenthesis. Only sees YOU, so blames YOU.

  • (he thinks) You want to leave
  • (he thinks) You question his dominance
  • (He thinks) You are being "mean" --- rather than you are simply reporting where you are. (He is taking things way personally)

Reality check from an outsider?

  • It's totally reasonable to leave if you are not happy there.
  • It is totally reasonable to question his dom skills if you don't know him well yet in that area or see him being wonky.
  • He might feel disappointed that you don't want to do an activity he wants to do, but is not reasonable to call you names like "mean" because you are not willing to let him do whatever he wants to your mind or body whenever he pleases.

If he cannot see the difference between him thinking you are doing something and you actually doing something? He doesn't control his own emotions well? Oy... don't get tied up near him when he's holding a whip.

He does not seem to understand that you (the sub) get to define the picture map. Like.... "These things I will not do, these things I will do, these things I am willing to explore on "colors."" You get to paint to the picture map because you choose to give up control of the steering wheel and entrust him to design how the trip is gonna go. He gets to get to hold the steering wheel because he chooses to give up control of painting the picture map. He promises to play fair and keep it on your map, because it's your car (your mind and body is what gets damaged most if he "drives" wrong.)

It is a power exchange because you each choose to give up something in order to gain something else.

It is not him having power OVER you -- even though you might play at it or it might feel like it at times.

If he cannot "dom" his own emotions and not lose his cool, I'd be leery of doing a scene with him and letting him dom you. What if he gets carried away in topspace or has an axe to grind -- then what? It just has to come out of your hide? Yikes! :(

I don't help all this by not being quick enough to realize my limits. We talk, I agree to something, then two hours (or two weeks) later I realize there was this red flag in our conversation which I just didn't find so important at that time, and that I cannot keep what I said. And I throw back a not-at-all submissive "hey, I do not like this red flag (how comes you don't understand, how this impacts others)", and he gets defensive like "what red flag, thats not a red flag/you don't understand this/this must be my way, becase it's the right way". I cannot blame him for getting defensive in this case, of course.

He's afraid of his subs leaving him... gee I wonder why? :mad: He seems to want power OVER you, and for you to always say he is "right no matter what." Rather than wanting to be in right relationship with you as dom/sub.

If he doesn't understand how things impact others... he lacks some interpersonal skills. He could work on taking feedback on board, reading body language, looking for other cues. When I bottom, and I'm deep in subspace? I lose all ability to speak. So much for doing "colors!" I need my top to check in with me, look at my eyes/face/body language to know what I need... because I need them to have sense FOR me when I don't have it. When it's been long enough, when I might need food, when I might need a warm blanket, when it is simply too much on the body, etc. Because I cannot advocate for me then. I am off in la-las. I am literally NOT THERE. I am that deep in altered consciousness.

If you already see he lacks some of these "seeing how it is for me" skills, don't rely on him to dom you well.

I would not feel safe doing kink with a person like that. I believe a dom exists only at the consent of the sub. To me, a good dom (creates safe space for a sub to raise concerns) to enable the dom to (create safe space for the sub to get their sub fun on in).

In fact, some demand it! They might want a certain framework around it depending on your personal dynamic. Like a kowtow with "Master, may I speak freely and share my concerns?" is one kind of tone... and sitting in a lap with "Baby wants Daddy to..." is another kind of tone.

But whatever dynamic y'all like... the point is that the dom is wants to hear and is willing to LISTEN to whatever the sub is reporting and takes that feedback on board. Might find or invent a reason to give you some spanks after you tell to get back into the scene, but the point is... they WANT you to tell so they have the info they need as a dom to shape a good scene for the both of you.

He also doesn't seem to understand basic consent.

Until you clear all that stuff up? I suggest you not place yourself in a position where you are at his mercy and judgment call. Because if he's lacking a bunch of skills, and he's not taking care of you sub communication needs very well? It's highly unlikely he will meet your scene needs or 24/7 needs well.

And you don't need physical or psychological damage from doing a scene with a bad dom.

Galagirl
 
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Becca

Member
Ugh. I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. How can you make space for potential primary partner when Idealist has such toxic ideas about how he should control your other relationships?

It leaves a bad taste for me, mainly because it reminds me of my ex-boyfriend. I never agreed to his requests for control (and decided against even having the D/s dynamic he wanted, because I didn't want him to have control), but I wasted a lot of time trying to take care if his feelings.

I don't have any great advice for dealing with someone like that, but don't compromise what's important to you.
 

KC43

New member
As others have said, being submissive doesn't mean just accepting anything and everything your Dom does and says. Even if you're owned/collared. The only exception is if you've agreed to a CNC (consensual nonconsent) arrangement, in which you gave your Dom blanket consent to do anything and everything he wants and you will not oppose it.

But even in that case, as I understand it, there is recourse if something is completely unpalatable or unacceptable to the sub. (I might be wrong; I've seen differing descriptions of CNC, so I think it's one of those "depends on the participants" things.)

If Idealist is getting angry and offended when you try to discuss problems, that, to me, would be a red flag in and of itself. You're his sub, not his blow-up doll. You're a human being with thoughts, feelings, needs, and wants, and you have the right to express those. If he's responding to "I have this problem with our relationship" with "You're being a big old meanie, and you just want to leave"... that's HIS problem, and personally, as harsh as this probably sounds, I would question his capability as a Dom if he's that insecure and disrespectful. As Magdlyn said, a good Dom respects and takes care of his sub, and it doesn't sound like Idealist is doing that for you.

You're putting the blame for HIS behavior on yourself. Try to take a step back and think about what you would tell someone else if you saw them saying "Oh, my partner whines and complains and gets mad if I speak up, but it's all my fault because I shouldn't be speaking up in the first place." Nope. Not your fault. HE is responsible for managing his own shit. You cannot make him feel or think a certain way; that's HIS job. Even as a sub, you have the right to speak up if something is bothering you.

Woody is my Dom. There is no question in my mind that I belong to him, and that he has some authority over me. But that is because I've *chosen* to be his. I've *chosen* to give him control and authority, and I can take it back any time I decide it isn't working anymore. And not only does Woody accept it if I bring up problems--even when it's something that bothers him to hear--he encourages it and to some extent requires it. He never wants me to feel as if I don't have options or a voice.

And I think he would laugh his ass off if someone approached him to get permission to fuck me...
 
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