Spiritual Sex

[arrowhead]

I am not a Pagan (at least not yet) but I am very interested. I have also known for some time that I am poly. My wife is not poly and is very much against it. I am not in a continuous poly relationship b/c of this. I am also a nudist.

In my Pagan studies, I have come across terms like "skyclad" and "sex magick." Being a nudist, being skyclad would seem quite natural. Sex magick seems a lot like tantra, or spiritual sex. One author even equated the two, so right or wrong, that's the bent I am coming from.

I have some friends that also believe in sex magick. At one time when my wife and I were separated last year, I had some very positive experiences with them. In fact, we openly discussed having a poly relationship.

Spiritual sex is something my wife has no interest in but I really believe in it. Question: Does my marriage trump my spiritual beliefs? I am trying hard not to make a justification for "cheating." It is really frustrating not to have this level of intimacy though; and I don't feel it is wrong to want that with more than one person.

For the record, I decided last year to stay in my marriage for a variety of reasons. I didn't get into a poly relationship with the other couple for this reason. But we are still very close and I am sure things could get intimate if I wanted it to. I am very open with them regarding where I am at but it is so frustrating not to be able to act on what seems natural.

I used to be Mormon and my beliefs have slowly evolved a lot over the last 7 years. It is becoming more difficult to stay in a marriage where I can't do what comes naturally to me. I love my wife in so many ways, but we also have many differences. I am having second thoughts if I made the right decision. My wife has done nothing wrong - it is me that has changed. We just have different preferences and levels of comfort. There is a lot more to this story but I'll leave it here for the time being. I would appreciate any thoughts you have. Thanks.

 

[bassman]

Geez I cant help but I can empathise. Ive gone off ALL religion and my wife is very into it. I'm stuck.

 

[neegoola]

My wife has done nothing wrong - it is me that has changed.

wow, this is very rare...

for my experience i may say that with very few basic "infos" we should be "able" to live a deep, spontaneous, spiritual Meeting within sex in love.

 

[Magdlyn]

We can love someone deeply and still grow apart. Marriage as lasting forever is an outdated concept.

If she is really holding you back to the point where you really can't be yourself, it might be better for both of you to part.

Sex and spirituality can be the core of one's being. Who wants to live their entire life with their core needs unmet?

*hugs*

 

[nycindie]

In my Pagan studies, I have come across terms like "skyclad" and "sex magick." Being a nudist, being skyclad would seem quite natural. Sex magick seems a lot like tantra, or spiritual sex. One author even equated the two, so right or wrong, that's the bent I am coming from.

I have some friends that also believe in sex magick. At one time when my wife and I were separated last year, I had some very positive experiences with them. In fact, we openly discussed having a poly relationship.

Spiritual sex is something my wife has no interest in but I really believe in it.

Hopefully you are aware of this already, but more often than not, the sex magick being performed in a pagan or wiccan group is symbolic and does not actually involve physical sex. From what I learned in the few years I spent being involved in Wicca, I can tell you to be careful about participating in any ritual sex or sex magick within a group. Ritual sex, whether for the Great Rite or some other reason, is considered sacred and is mostly performed in private by committed partners, or those with whom you have developed a large amount of trust over time and are at the same level in their studies. No reputable coven would require sex as an initiation, and very few traditions will engage in sex or orgies as a part of group rites. Certainly, taking part in sexual rites -- or even being skyclad -- should only be an option and never a requirement to belong to a group.

When the physical act of sex is part of a ritual, it should be a very intimate sharing of one’s body and spirit. There are predators out there to be wary of. Some join groups looking for sex, because of some misconceptions they have, and others lead groups to take advantage of their position with members who don’t really have knowledge of what is appropriate.

Sex In Circle: A Philosophical Treatise On Ritual Magick

The Great Rite

 

[arrowhead]

Hopefully you are aware of this already, but more often than not, the sex magick being performed in a pagan or wiccan group is symbolic and does not actually involve physical sex. From what I learned in the few years I spent being involved in Wicca, I can tell you to be careful about participating in any ritual sex or sex magick within a group. Ritual sex, whether for the Great Rite or some other reason, is considered sacred and is mostly performed in private by committed partners, or those with whom you have developed a large amount of trust over time and are at the same level in their studies. No reputable coven would require sex as an initiation, and very few traditions will engage in sex or orgies as a part of group rites. Certainly, taking part in sexual rites -- or even being skyclad -- should only be an option and never a requirement to belong to a group.

When the physical act of sex is part of a ritual, it should be a very intimate sharing of one’s body and spirit. There are predators out there to be wary of. Some join groups looking for sex, because of some misconceptions they have, and others lead groups to take advantage of their position with members who don’t really have knowledge of what is appropriate.

Sex In Circle: A Philosophical Treatise On Ritual Magick

The Great Rite

Thank you for the advice. Actually, paganism is very new to me and I am still learning about it. My only exposure is the few friends I have in it and a book I am reading by Joyce Higginbotham. I appreciate the links you also provided. I was not aware that The Great Rite, or other rituals in kind, can also be practised symbolically. I have a long way to go in understanding the ins and outs or paganism. I don't know exactly where my beliefs fit in either. I am taking my time and asking a lot of questions.

Again, my biggest problem is when my spiritual beliefs about sex or even poly, run headlong into my partner's belief in marriage and what that is supposed to be. The only alternatives I find are either to "practice" my beliefs in secret (an option I don't like) or leave the marriage (another option I don't like). Sometimes it seems like you have to take a few steps back to move forward. I don't know if this is one of those times.

I appreciate everyone's responses so far. However, is there anyone on this forum that has left a marriage over belief differences or b/c they knew they were poly and the other spouse couldn't accept it? I feel selfish and yet, I want to acknowledge who I really am w/o having to pretend. That seems like the right thing to do. You know...coming out poly or having non-standard beliefs about sex is, I imagine, like coming out that you're gay. Some people can handle it and some can't. What do you do with those who are close to you that can't?

I would appreciate any insights anyone could offer if you have gone through something like this. Thanks all for your help.

 

[Magdlyn]

Well, of course, marriages can break up for many reasons, infinite reasons. I was with my ex for over 30 years but shouldve gotten divorced after 20, if not for the kids.

We held differering spiritual beliefs, he was into Native American, I am into a combination of Wicca, Asian and Greek mysteries. That wasn't a huge problem, but our communities really started to differ.

Also, I am naturally poly and no matter how I tried to suppress it and hide it from him, downplay my crushes (I never cheated), he was always jealous. Plus, I am queer and he is straight.

There was more to it, but it was a great decision to finally make the split. I am so much happier now.

 

[dingedheart]

What exactly is spiritual sex? And why would any loving married partner resist such a thing ...sounds delightful. Are you saying she doesn't like sex?...just can't wait til you climb off or finish.

If your wife is mono and adamantly against poly wouldn't be easier to explore spiritual sex with her, (teacher her that) than all the coping skills, fights, heartache, she will need to adjust to you having spiritual or any other kind of sex with other partners?

 

[arrowhead]

Well, of course, marriages can break up for many reasons, infinite reasons. I was with my ex for over 30 years but shouldve gotten divorced after 20, if not for the kids.

We held differering spiritual beliefs, he was into Native American, I am into a combination of Wicca, Asian and Greek mysteries. That wasn't a huge problem, but our communities really started to differ.

Also, I am naturally poly and no matter how I tried to suppress it and hide it from him, downplay my crushes (I never cheated), he was always jealous. Plus, I am queer and he is straight.

There was more to it, but it was a great decision to finally make the split. I am so much happier now.

My wife and I also have different spiritual beliefs and that does make things much harder.

I am also naturally poly too. I have suppressed mine too. I have tried to talk about it with her several times, but she already told me if I wanted to be with someone else that we might as well get divorced. I have told her on many occasions that I can love more than one person, but that doesn't take away from the love I have for her. She doesn't understand that. She is very straight and mono.

I think one of the biggest problems we face is that the communities we want to be involved with the other partner doesn't want anything to do with. For example, I want to be more involved in getting to know a pagan community and learning from them. She wants to stay in a Mormon community. There are other things too.

I guess what I want to know from you is, what was the final straw that made you make the split? How did your family take it - especially your kids?

 

[Magdlyn]

The final straw... I guess it was when my ex found out I'd been flirting with a guy online. I kind of drifted into a flirtation with him, and even tho it was all cyber, I realized he was actually giving me more attention and fun that my ex was... The ex was passive aggressive, and a bad communicator. He held grudges about the most stupid stuff from decades earlier. My friends were all encouraging me to leave him. We'd done therapy back in the early 2000s, and that helped me start to create boundaries for my own comfort.

The kids were all late teens, early 20s when we split. Actually I think the years before the split were harder on them than afterward. My ex and I used to have long long circular conversations, so frustrating. The kids felt the tension.

Ah, it's a long sad story. Suffice it to say, I am so much better off now. I've got 3 delicious lovers who are totally on board with who I am, poly, queer, social, extroverted, kinky/sexual, instead of trying to control me and put me in a box like my jealous, low self esteemed-ex always did.

 

[arrowhead]

What exactly is spiritual sex? And why would any loving married partner resist such a thing ...sounds delightful. Are you saying she doesn't like sex?...just can't wait til you climb off or finish.

If your wife is mono and adamantly against poly wouldn't be easier to explore spiritual sex with her, (teacher her that) than all the coping skills, fights, heartache, she will need to adjust to you having spiritual or any other kind of sex with other partners?

Spiritual sex is...well...spiritual. It is more than just orgasm. It is a connection and buildup and infusing of energy with your partner. It is becoming one psychically as well as physically. I have only experienced it a few times and quite by accident (the stars were aligned I guess), but when I have, it is a different experience. It is another plane of sex altogether. I am also a yogi and know about the seven chakras. When serpent energy goes from your base chakra up through your spine to the final chakra at the crown of your head, it is a feeling of spiritual bliss and oneness. Spiritual sex, tantra, or sex magick (if the terms are synonymous) is like that. I am sure there are differences between the traditions (and I am slowly learning about them), but this is what I want to explore with her or any partner.

Yes it does sound delightful doesn't it?! And yet, my wife has no interest in exploring such a thing. I have tried to get her interested several times, but to no avail. You would think that a woman would be interested in having this sort of relationship with her partner, but she is not. It isn't something important to her. And this is one of the problems I have in the marriage: if I want to explore, I have to do it by myself. This is not the only area of mismatch with us; there are several others. So in the end, I can't share my deepest self - physically, psychically, or socially. And THAT, is what I long for more than anything. Is there anyone on this forum that wouldn't want that too?

I have often thought that it is unrealistic to expect one person to meet all our needs throughout life. That is one reason why Polyamory - aside from what seems like a natural fit for me - would allow all partners to have their needs met. But she is not interested in poly; either for me or for her. I am more than willing to let her have a poly relationship too to have her needs met that I can't fulfill. I am sure it is just as frustrating for her. Yet, she does fulfill some of my needs. But as time goes on, the more apart and diverse we seem to become.

Am I being unrealistic or selfish about me desires?

 

[arrowhead]

What exactly is spiritual sex? And why would any loving married partner resist such a thing ...sounds delightful. Are you saying she doesn't like sex?...just can't wait til you climb off or finish.

If your wife is mono and adamantly against poly wouldn't be easier to explore spiritual sex with her, (teacher her that) than all the coping skills, fights, heartache, she will need to adjust to you having spiritual or any other kind of sex with other partners?

Spiritual sex is...well...spiritual. It is more than just orgasm. It is a connection and buildup and infusing of energy with your partner. It is becoming one psychically as well as physically. I have only experienced it a few times and quite by accident (the stars were aligned I guess), but when I have, it is a different experience. It is another plane of sex altogether. I am also a yogi and know about the seven chakras. When serpent energy goes from your base chakra up through your spine to the final chakra at the crown of your head, it is a feeling of spiritual bliss and oneness. Spiritual sex, tantra, or sex magick (if the terms are synonymous) is like that. I am sure there are differences between the traditions (and I am slowly learning about them), but this is what I want to explore with her or any partner.

Yes it does sound delightful doesn't it?! And yet, my wife has no interest in exploring such a thing. I have tried to get her interested several times, but to no avail. You would think that a woman would be interested in having this sort of relationship with her partner, but she is not. It isn't something important to her. And this is one of the problems I have in the marriage: if I want to explore, I have to do it by myself. This is not the only area of mismatch with us; there are several others. So in the end, I can't share my deepest self - physically, psychically, or socially. And THAT, is what I long for more than anything. Is there anyone on this forum that wouldn't want that too?

I have often thought that it is unrealistic to expect one person to meet all our needs throughout life. That is one reason why Polyamory - aside from what seems like a natural fit for me - would allow all partners to have their needs met. But she is not interested in poly; either for me or for her. I am more than willing to let her have a poly relationship too to have her needs met that I can't fulfill. I am sure it is just as frustrating for her. Yet, she does fulfill some of my needs. But as time goes on, the more apart and diverse we seem to become.

Am I being unrealistic or selfish about me desires?

 

[arrowhead]

The final straw... I guess it was when my ex found out I'd been flirting with a guy online. I kind of drifted into a flirtation with him, and even tho it was all cyber, I realized he was actually giving me more attention and fun that my ex was... The ex was passive aggressive, and a bad communicator. He held grudges about the most stupid stuff from decades earlier. My friends were all encouraging me to leave him. We'd done therapy back in the early 2000s, and that helped me start to create boundaries for my own comfort.

The kids were all late teens, early 20s when we split. Actually I think the years before the split were harder on them than afterward. My ex and I used to have long long circular conversations, so frustrating. The kids felt the tension.

Ah, it's a long sad story. Suffice it to say, I am so much better off now. I've got 3 delicious lovers who are totally on board with who I am, poly, queer, social, extroverted, kinky/sexual, instead of trying to control me and put me in a box like my jealous, low self esteemed-ex always did.

I can relate with the whole passive/aggressive communication pattern. I deal with that too and it gets old.

I am glad things are so much better for you. I often wonder if I could experience some of the same. I guess I have nagging doubts that the grass will be greener on the other side. For the short time my wife and I were separated, it was hard. Like I said in an earlier post, I did have some experiences that sort of wetted my appetite. I now believe I should have stayed separated for awhile longer. I don't think I gave myself enough time.

 

[dingedheart]

You said you moved out then later decided to returned. Before, during or after did you and your wife participate in any marriage counseling?


So as I get the question now ....its I have these new ideas, got to sample some of that briefly, made the decision to return....now really starting to regret that decision. Have you told your wife about this? Trust your gut and do what you need to do to be your authentic self.

 

[arrowhead]

You said you moved out then later decided to return. Before, during or after did you and your wife participate in any marriage counseling?


So as I get the question now ....its I have these new ideas, got to sample some of that briefly, made the decision to return....now really starting to regret that decision. Have you told your wife about this? Trust your gut and do what you need to do to be your authentic self.

My wife and I have gone to marriage counseling MANY times. We went to counseling on and off over a period of years before our separation, and with several counselors. I had to drag her kicking and screaming each time. We haven't gone since the separation b/c it takes so much energy and I'm worn out from trying. She is not a bad person but she isn’t an open person either. She is who she is but doesn’t want to change. I am the one who wants the changes. I just want significant others that want (at least a little bit) of what I want.

You have correctly interpreted the gist of my situation. I haven't told her of my latest thoughts and feelings. I wanted to let them simmer for awhile. I have gone through a lot of changes in the last five years. It is hard on a family. I have learned some things can’t be discussed; others have to be timed. It is not a simple thing. That is one reason I discuss them here. So what do I do when my beliefs interfere with the standard definition of monogamy according to my wife? I am not left with many choices.

It is hard to trust my gut. I don't know why. Perhaps it is b/c I feel like such an island. I am beginning to think I may be a pagan who also believes in polyamory. You know how rare that is??? I don’t know any pagans personally. I don’t know anyone who is actively living a poly lifestyle either. I can make decisions, but when it is just you, it makes it harder.

 

[SNeacail]

My wife and I have gone to marriage counseling MANY times. We went to counseling on and off over a period of years before our separation, and with several counselors. I had to drag her kicking and screaming each time.

BIG RED FLAG!!! There are bigger issues between you and your wife than if she will ever be able to accept you being poly. I find this behavior odd, when my husband and I were finally driven to counceling, I won't say we actually enjoyed it , but we found that we both got a great deal out of it and regret that we can't afford to continue to go. What were her biggest objections to going to counseling?

 

[Magdlyn]

Arrow, I have read a lot about Mormonism and I know what a tight community it is. Now that you've left the church, have you been shunned by family and former friends?

You and your wife have been deeply programmed. Now you've broken away. I guess you won't meet many pagans in your area (Utah?) but there must be some around if you look online. Read websites and books about paganism and polyamory.

I can do nothing but recommend you go to therapy yourself ( a non-Mormon one of course!) and keep strengthening your resolve to find your self, follow your truth and your own bliss, with your wife, or not.

Bless, Mags

 

[arrowhead]

BIG RED FLAG!!! There are bigger issues between you and your wife than if she will ever be able to accept you being poly. I find this behavior odd, when my husband and I were finally driven to counceling, I won't say we actually enjoyed it , but we found that we both got a great deal out of it and regret that we can't afford to continue to go. What were her biggest objections to going to counseling?

My wife doesn't believe in counselors. She thinks we can just work it out ourselves. That hasn't worked out too well. Funny, she has a bachelor's degree in psychology too. How's that for a rationalizing?!

She has a hard time opening up with her feelings. After all the counselors we've gone to, I have finally stopped trying to change this part of her behavior and allow her to be who she is. She has many other good traits, but this is one aspect of her personality that doesn't meet my needs. It prevents a level of closeness that I am looking for in another partner. This is one of the reasons why I believe in polyamory; because it seems unrealistic for one person to meet ALL the needs of another.

 

[arrowhead]

Arrow, I have read a lot about Mormonism and I know what a tight community it is. Now that you've left the church, have you been shunned by family and former friends?

You and your wife have been deeply programmed. Now you've broken away. I guess you won't meet many pagans in your area (Utah?) but there must be some around if you look online. Read websites and books about paganism and polyamory.

I can do nothing but recommend you go to therapy yourself ( a non-Mormon one of course!) and keep strengthening your resolve to find your self, follow your truth and your own bliss, with your wife, or not.

Bless, Mags

Mormonism is a very tight community. They have a built-in network that surrounds its members. There are a lot of advantages with that. But a major disadvantage is that they become myopic in their views. They really have little understanding of outside worldviews (like Paganism) or even of other types of Christianity for that matter. You would be surprised at the level of ignorance.

Have I been shunned by family or friends? There has certainly been an amount of that, but not outright shunning. Mostly, my extended family stays away from certain subjects around me. I know far more about Mormonism (and Christianity for that matter) and its history than your average Mormon. They know they can't intellectually debate me on such topics.

You don't just leave the church. As long as your family is in it, it is always there. However, I am a constant reminder to them that I don't buy-in to their beliefs. That makes it very uncomfortable for them. You can't have an honest conversation about beliefs. I wish I could.

Programmed?? You don't know the half of it! I have been unwinding my brain for the last 5 years from all the bullshit I was fed. Even though I am in a much better place now, I still deal with the fallout. The Mormon church is a cult, and like all cults, there is damage that ensues b/c of it. I am damaged somewhat. I know that. However, I try not to be a victim. I also try not to completely blame them (I take responsibility too for being clueless) although I do have some bitterness. It is a constant struggle for me. Some days are better than others.

I do not live in Utah but in California. So I know there are a lot of pagans here. I just don't know any personally. Perhaps they are afraid to come out?! I have been thinking of going to some meetups at Meetup.com. I am just trying to learn a little bit more to see where my current beliefs fit. If you have other suggestions, I would love to hear them. Are there poly meetups? I don't know of any. I am not even sure it would be appropriate for me to go given my situation. I am still sorting this out.

My current position in my beliefs is that I am sort of an animist. Meaning, I find a spiritual quality in all things, both animate and inanimate: people, animals, mountains, rivers, even rocks. I would have thought this was crazy 5 years ago, but my level of understanding has deepened regarding the natural world. Nature has always held a spiritual quality for me. I am just beginning to get glimpses of how much I have missed.

Thanks everyone for all your help and even for just listening. It is helpful for me just to write stuff like this out.

 

[nycindie]

Genealogy is a passion of mine, so I am grateful to the Mormons for all their archiving and record-keeping, but when I used to visit an LDS library, it was clear to me from what I observed that it is indeed a cult. My theory is that Joseph Smith was basically schizophrenic and suffered from hallucinations, but somehow a huge religion came out of that, and it continues. I suspect that somewhere deep in the LDS organization, a few people are making lots of money.

I have come across forums and website for excommunicated (or disfellowshipped?) Mormons. I don't have any links right now but I recall seeing a very supportive community. I have a friend whose whole family was shunned by the Jehovah's Witnesses, and she had to go through some deprogramming, too.