Star Trek and Star Wars

Scott

New member
Star Wars vs. Star Trek is definitely one of the consummate archetypical debates of contemporary Western popular culture. You can apply it to just about any intellectual masturbation exercise, and use it to prove whatever point you want.

I have always leaned toward the "Trek" camp, probably because I can find more characters in it with whom i identify in real life, but it doesn't really matter which side of the fence you land on. It is still a wonderful rhetorical tool.

I hope you don't mind that I responded to your post in another thread BG, but it was kinda getting off topic in the original thread and yet I found it an interesting enough sidetrack to not want to let it go :). So here goes...

In regards to polyamory, I think that Star Trek wins hands down in the poly issue; they even had that doctor in Star Trek Voyager who was openly polyamorous. Nycindie wrote a great post regarding perhaps the most brazen display of polyamory in the Star Trek Universe; in contrast, I can't really think of -any- polyamorous content in any of the Star Wars films.

That being said, I loved the Star Wars films as well; unlike Star Wars which, by some lights, could seem to be an updated version of the U.S.'s military (call it the 'explorer division' if you will), Star Wars is constantly portraying things from the -other- side; the rebels, desperately trying to win what frequently seems like an impossible battle against the well established powers that be.

I know it's not nearly as clear cut as that; the Bjorans, ofcourse, are generally thought of as rebels, but by and large we tend to see the perspective of the ones in power, not those without it. The only large exception to this is the Q; I know that the main Q guy is constantly annoyed Picard, but considering the immense power they had, they really seem to be amazingly benign. The Empire in Star Wars is generally anything but.

Anyway, if anyone else would like to share their thoughts on Star Wars and/or Star Trek, regarding polyamory or otherwise, please pitch in :).
 
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RunicWolf

New member
I'm a fan of both, honestly. I lean more Star Wars then Trek, mostly because Trek is too clean and the people too perfect. That said, DS9 was probably my favorite Trek show because it felt more real then the others.

That said, in both cases you only see a small fraction of the universes, in shows, movies, or expanded universes. There should be no reason poly relationships can't exist in either setting. Personally I could care less about how much I see. Like my life, unless it's important, does anyone really need to know? Does it move the story along, or is it just a quirk to make a character/race seem more unusual? I'm okay with it being so far in the back we never see it because it's not important. Like how Babylon 5 handled the same sex relationship that cropped up. You know it was a thing but it's only brought up when it's important to the plot (which was all of twice) and handled tastefully.
 

Scott

New member
I'm a fan of both, honestly. I lean more Star Wars then Trek, mostly because Trek is too clean and the people too perfect.

You know, I'd never thought of that.

That said, DS9 was probably my favorite Trek show because it felt more real then the others.

Really? I thought it was ok, but for me, The Next Generation was the one that I loved. I'm pretty sure I saw every episode atleast once and most of them twice, laugh :). Oh one thing about DS9 though, Jadzia Dax was hot :)!

That said, in both cases you only see a small fraction of the universes, in shows, movies, or expanded universes. There should be no reason poly relationships can't exist in either setting.

For sure. Ultimately, I see fiction as a reflection of those who created it, and those people are firmly in this world :).

Personally I could care less about how much I see. Like my life, unless it's important, does anyone really need to know? Does it move the story along, or is it just a quirk to make a character/race seem more unusual? I'm okay with it being so far in the back we never see it because it's not important. Like how Babylon 5 handled the same sex relationship that cropped up. You know it was a thing but it's only brought up when it's important to the plot (which was all of twice) and handled tastefully.

For sure. Whenever I see a film/show/anime/what have you, what I always try to think of is, why did they make it this way? I suspend disbelief to some extent; I don't really care if something that happened in a fictional show is technically impossible so long as it's not blatantly so. I generally think that all of these mediums are generally trying to communicate something on a deeper level, and that's what I like to focus on. Sometimes, even the authors themselves may not fully understand what inspires them to do this or that, but I like to come up with theories.. definitely keeps my mind going :).
 

RunicWolf

New member
Really? I thought it was ok, but for me, The Next Generation was the one that I loved. I'm pretty sure I saw every episode atleast once and most of them twice, laugh :). Oh one thing about DS9 though, Jadzia Dax was hot :)!

And had many relationships, sometimes at the same time. With the Trill relationships where a tricky thing. They could have many, where known for having flings and where not restrained in who or how they loved other then a few basic rules (which got broken or bent). I mean, look at Dax by the end. In an odd little way you -almost- have a V going with an alien space slug as the hinge (chew on that image for a while!).

And the real thing I liked about DS9 over the other Trek shows? It was set on a dirty station in a little corner of the galaxy. It was dingy and often had the Trek universe's scum floating through and causing trouble. People where people, with real flaws, problems, and strengths. The station was far from clean or even operational at times. Plus I'm behind any Trek series where Q gets punched in the face ("You punched me! Picard never punched me.").
 

Scott

New member
And had many relationships, sometimes at the same time. With the Trill relationships where a tricky thing. They could have many, where known for having flings and where not restrained in who or how they loved other then a few basic rules (which got broken or bent). I mean, look at Dax by the end. In an odd little way you -almost- have a V going with an alien space slug as the hinge (chew on that image for a while!).

Lol :)

And the real thing I liked about DS9 over the other Trek shows? It was set on a dirty station in a little corner of the galaxy. It was dingy and often had the Trek universe's scum floating through and causing trouble. People where people, with real flaws, problems, and strengths. The station was far from clean or even operational at times. Plus I'm behind any Trek series where Q gets punched in the face ("You punched me! Picard never punched me.").

Lol :). Picard certainly wasn't that nice to Q either though. Honestly, you'd think they'd have a little more respect for an almost omnipotent being, if for no other reason then that he's got so much power. And I -really- think it was insane how they never even -tried- to harness that power every time I saw them interact.

As to the station, I guess you're right about that. It's just that I loved practically every episode of TNG because of the stories in them.. a lot of the TNG episodes were kind of one offs.. no loose ends the episode before or any of that, it was like watching a short movie for a lot of those episodes.. but yeah if I had to choose my second favourite it'd probably be DS9 :).
 

BoringGuy

Banned
Q was no question my favorite Star Trek character of all-time. I wish they had one where Q and Captain/Admiral Kirk meet. Maybe they do have one with that in it. I only paid attention to TOS and TNG, and the movies. I didn't care too much for the Borg, but they did add an interesting adversarial element to the show; also, they WERE introduced to the Federation BY Q, so they have that going for them as far as I am concerned.
 

Somegeezer

New member
No love for Stargate? Sadtimes. =[ I'd have to choose Trek over Wars, but Stargate wins both anytime for me. I think SG1 especially, Atlantis a close second. Though Universe is just terrible. I'll throw that in with the Star Wars fellas. =P

I really fell in love with O'Neill as a character. Really resonated with me. =] I was sad to see him pushed away near the end of the series. Though Teal'c is cool too. Much like myself, I felt. No real poly, that I remember, though O'Neill and Carter right through was always those moments when you had to shout at the screen "get on with it already!" =P
 

huatare1990

New member
I'm a fan of both, honestly. I lean more Star Wars then Trek, mostly because Trek is too clean and the people too perfect. That said, DS9 was probably my favorite Trek show because it felt more real then the others.

That said, in both cases you only see a small fraction of the universes, in shows, movies, or expanded universes. There should be no reason poly relationships can't exist in either setting. Personally I could care less about how much I see. Like my life, unless it's important, does anyone really need to know? Does it move the story along, or is it just a quirk to make a character/race seem more unusual? I'm okay with it being so far in the back we never see it because it's not important. Like how Babylon 5 handled the same sex relationship that cropped up. You know it was a thing but it's only brought up when it's important to the plot (which was all of twice) and handled tastefully.

I like them BOTH! They are both great in their own way
 

Scott

New member
No love for Stargate? Sadtimes. =[

Lol :)

I'd have to choose Trek over Wars, but Stargate wins both anytime for me. I think SG1 especially, Atlantis a close second. Though Universe is just terrible. I'll throw that in with the Star Wars fellas. =P

Maybe I only saw universe? I don't know, the only bits of Stargate I saw I wasn't all that impressed with.

I really fell in love with O'Neill as a character. Really resonated with me. =] I was sad to see him pushed away near the end of the series. Though Teal'c is cool too. Much like myself, I felt. No real poly, that I remember, though O'Neill and Carter right through was always those moments when you had to shout at the screen "get on with it already!" =P

Laugh :).
 

CielDuMatin

New member
I am a fan of harder, darker Sci Fi, so for me there are plenty of franchises that stand out above Star Trek and Star Wars. Of the Stargate series, I much preferred SGU, because of the darkness, otherwise I found it simmilar to the other big franchises. I loved Babylon 5 because of the amount of detail in the story, the richness of the characters and the massive story arc. Also a big fan of Farscape for the utterly alien nature of things, including the characters. And, even though I am far from being a Browncoat, I will put my vote in for Firefly for the less heavy end of Sci Fi. Add in Doctor Who to the less heavy mix and I think that's my top list.
 

RunicWolf

New member
No love for Stargate? Sadtimes. =[ I'd have to choose Trek over Wars, but Stargate wins both anytime for me. I think SG1 especially, Atlantis a close second. Though Universe is just terrible. I'll throw that in with the Star Wars fellas.

Oh, I was sticking with Trek/Wars because, you know, the OP.

However I adore the first 8 Seasons of SG-1. I've always been a big fan of those kinds of sweeping stories with the "little" guys getting to step up, play with the "big boys" and win. That and Teal'c and Bra'tac stealing the damn show so often. Proud Alien Race Guys that don't fall into Worf Syndrome? Yes, please, I'll take two. Already covered? Thanks!

Babylon 5, though, has to be my favorite Sci-fi series in a long long while. The main advantage it had was the scripted nature of it's seasons. The big, long arc mixed with the gritty and often realistic (space combat physics! <3<3<3!!!) nature of the setting made it so worth while for me. I mentioned how I loved the grit of DS9, but B5 did that AND had the "Clean" sections of Trek in the same, believable setting. From the clean and polished officer's quarters and the command center all the way to Downbelow with it's transients and homeless, human and otherwise.
 

BoringGuy

Banned
All I'm saying is, I wish they would make more movies that don't suck.

Star Treks V, VI, VII, IX, X, and XI sucked, as did, everyone agrees, Star Wars I, II, and III.

Having established that, I still think the best hope for a continuing plot for Star Trek (forget about Star Wars - Lucas is twice as useless as Roddenberry, notwithstanding) is to have them bring back Data. If you recall, Data was destroyed at the end of one of the sucky movies - it was the one where someone cloned Captain Picard and raised the clone on the Dark Side of Romulus, or whatever the fuck Romulus' freaky twin is, Remus (sp?). But near the beginning, they found all these Chinese-knockoffs of Data on some planet, and the bootleg Data started acting like Dr. McCoy after Spock implanted himself onto McCoy's head-chakra at the end of II. Anyway, it would make a good story, plus it would bring back Data and satifsy the Star Trek meme of drawing parallels between TOS and TNG.

Also, I think Star Trek I (the VGER one) was a lot better in retrospect than it was when I saw it the first time (actually, the first time I saw both Star Trek I and Star Wars IV, they both bored the hell out of me and I fell asleep just as they were getting good (now that I know). But compared to seeing it before the other movies after it, I appreciate it a lot more).
 

JaneQSmythe

Well-known member
I'm Star Wars (the original 3 movies) >> Star Trek (which I could never get into). Anyone besides me just about piss themselves over the "Clerks 2" Trilogy scene? We went to see the 1-3 Star Wars movies for our friend's wife and TLOTR trilogy for ME (the only Fantasy series I am really into.)

Put me down for Firefly/Serenity and the first season of Dark Angel (because Jessica Alba is HOT...at least until she talks out of character).

My sci-fi leanings are way more geared to printed media - fan of the hard SF from the "Golden Age" of SF personally....\

JaneQ
 

BoringGuy

Banned
I'm Star Wars (the original 3 movies)


JaneQ

As long as you agree that I, II, and III sucked, then we can probably share the same internet.
 

JaneQSmythe

Well-known member
As long as you agree that I, II, and III sucked, then we can probably share the same internet.

Crisis averted. We are in agreement.

JaneQ
 

Scott

New member
I am a fan of harder, darker Sci Fi, so for me there are plenty of franchises that stand out above Star Trek and Star Wars. Of the Stargate series, I much preferred SGU, because of the darkness, otherwise I found it simmilar to the other big franchises. I loved Babylon 5 because of the amount of detail in the story, the richness of the characters and the massive story arc. Also a big fan of Farscape for the utterly alien nature of things, including the characters. And, even though I am far from being a Browncoat, I will put my vote in for Firefly for the less heavy end of Sci Fi. Add in Doctor Who to the less heavy mix and I think that's my top list.

I think my parents liked to watch a bit of Doctor Who when I was young. I still remember the beginning music.. I saw an episode or 2 and thought they were pretty scary at the time, laugh :). But they stuck to me.. the music, the bit that I saw... I really liked it. As mentioned before, never really got into Stargate, but maybe that'll change one day. I did kind of like Babylon 5 but never managed to see too many.. Part of it all may be that I generally watched tv -with- someone.. and the one show that my family all liked watching was Star Trek TNG; we were also all Star Wars fans :)
 

Somegeezer

New member
Maybe I only saw universe? I don't know, the only bits of Stargate I saw I wasn't all that impressed with.
Possibly. Or maybe you just didn't like it. Anyone who liked Universe, probably watched it before SG1 and Atlantis, or just didn't like SG1 and Atlantis to start with. Universe is just far from either.

I am a fan of harder, darker Sci Fi, so for me there are plenty of franchises that stand out above Star Trek and Star Wars. Of the Stargate series, I much preferred SGU, because of the darkness, otherwise I found it simmilar to the other big franchises. I loved Babylon 5 because of the amount of detail in the story, the richness of the characters and the massive story arc. Also a big fan of Farscape for the utterly alien nature of things, including the characters. And, even though I am far from being a Browncoat, I will put my vote in for Firefly for the less heavy end of Sci Fi. Add in Doctor Who to the less heavy mix and I think that's my top list.
I keep meaning to watch Farscape, but definitely, Firefly/Serenity was awesome. I'd probably say my fav sci-fi in all, with Stargate being second. I also enjoy Doctor Who, the newer ones, at least. think I'm too young to have ever seen any of the original episodes whilst they were on. But I'd not watch them now, just because of how used I am to more modern TV. Just the props alone in the original Doctor Who messes with me.

Oh, I was sticking with Trek/Wars because, you know, the OP.

However I adore the first 8 Seasons of SG-1. I've always been a big fan of those kinds of sweeping stories with the "little" guys getting to step up, play with the "big boys" and win. That and Teal'c and Bra'tac stealing the damn show so often. Proud Alien Race Guys that don't fall into Worf Syndrome? Yes, please, I'll take two. Already covered? Thanks!

Babylon 5, though, has to be my favorite Sci-fi series in a long long while. The main advantage it had was the scripted nature of it's seasons. The big, long arc mixed with the gritty and often realistic (space combat physics! <3<3<3!!!) nature of the setting made it so worth while for me. I mentioned how I loved the grit of DS9, but B5 did that AND had the "Clean" sections of Trek in the same, believable setting. From the clean and polished officer's quarters and the command center all the way to Downbelow with it's transients and homeless, human and otherwise.
Yeah, I think I knocked this topis way off, just with my comment. =P Sorry OP. XD I agree with all your Stargate paragraph though. =]
never got into Babylon 5. I think my mum watched it a fair bit, who also got me into Stargate, I remember. =P But I think the whole tightly scripted nature was the same reason I didn't like it. It felt very forced. But that was very long ago. I've recently had a friend watching through them again, and I've been seeing her talk about it a lot on facebook. Making me think I should go ahead and give it another chance.

DS9 was the one series of Star Trek that I watched a fair few episodes of. I thought it was the best one, but still didn't get me into Star Trek. [you know, just to bring the topic a little back. XD]
 

Papillon

New member
Anyone who liked Universe, probably watched it before SG1 and Atlantis, or just didn't like SG1 and Atlantis to start with. Universe is just far from either.

Beg to differ! :p I've always loved Stargate (SG1 & Atlantis) but I also loved SGU. I agree that it's a very different animal, but life would be boring if everything was the same! There were still bits of plot/situations that made it fit with the more usual Stargate vibe, but the desperate setting meant it was always going to be more gritty, and it was much more of an ensemble cast, rather than the 'small team visits a different alien planet each week' thing.

I think it was well done, and I think a lot of the reason it got slated by fans was because they were expecting another clone of SG1 (which lets face it, Atlantis pretty much was :p). You have to view it in its own right...but even then I appreciate it's not going to be for everyone.

Also, I adore Robert Carlyle in SGU!
 

CielDuMatin

New member
Anyone who liked Universe, probably watched it before SG1 and Atlantis, or just didn't like SG1 and Atlantis to start with. Universe is just far from either.
Nope - watched the Stargate movie, then watch SG-1 and Atlantis as they were coming out. Then watched SGU.

They were all good, but I think SGU suited my tastes best.
 

Random

New member
I love TNG, am currently watching them again on Netflix:)
Original Star Wars is the best, the newer ones are awful. Except I do love me some Ewan McGregor.

Awesome thread Scott!
 
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