Thoughts on being his secret?
- Thread starter Tigger40
- Start date
Christ, did I ever say I thought this was "puppies and rainbows" or whatever the hell you took the small snippet of my story as? No, I didn't. I said that I have an issue that I was hoping to get feedback about because it is actually bothering me. Being immediately told that I'm "kidding myself" as such a finite resolution to someone I feel so strongly about....yeah, kinda took that the worst way I suppose. That doesn't mean I completely ignored what was said. It just doesn't do anything to help me.
Sorry to get defensive and sorry to Kernow if I made it sound like I was being flippant about her situation and story, but holy hell.....thanks for taking what little I felt comfortable opening up about and making it sound like I'm the scum of the earth because I'm daring to try to figure out my situation without anyone's heart being stomped on. I already know that the original situation was the wrong one and a mistake, hence why he and I both backed off before anything could really happen that we knew we'd regret. Now here I am asking about what I initially believed to sound like a reasonable success story in regards to a situation similar to my own (which I was mistaken about....again, I apologize if I sounded like I was glorifying it, Kernow), and I get slammed by someone who takes my 2 sentence response as complete ignorance and decides to go off on me with condescension and sarcasm.
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friskyone4u
New member
Don't know what kind of help you can expect other than maybe a cheering section from some who may not care about damage as long as they get what they want. I always thought the whole idea of "ethical non-monagamy" of any sort was that honesty and openness were the building blocks. If you want to become his mistress you do not need any advice from anyone. You are capable of doing that by yourself.
If your friends partner is going to be the "cheated on wife", I agree with NY Cindie and the others. You are not in any kind of poly relationship, you are just the "other woman"
That's up to you. Doesn't seem too complicated
If your friends partner is going to be the "cheated on wife", I agree with NY Cindie and the others. You are not in any kind of poly relationship, you are just the "other woman"
That's up to you. Doesn't seem too complicated
I actually thought my response had been quite measured. I'm certainly not saying that you are a terrible person, but I do think that by daring to hope that this can be worked out without anyone getting hurt is unrealistic. I give you credit for pulling back and not letting it go too far, but I honestly believe that you will be the one who is most likely to get badly hurt. You are right that the outcome for us has been good in the long term, but I think ours is a fairly unusual situation. I tried to give you an objective answer, I care very much about the other woman involved in our situation and while we are all happy with our situation she would be the first to admit that in many ways she has been short changed by my husband.
I have tried to tell you honestly about our situation, it is not meant as criticism of you. I like the way our life is now, I wouldn't want to change it very much but in all honesty I don't think it is perfect from the other woman's viewpoint.
I'm very new to this forum (and new to poly) and I am disappointed. Forums frequently degenerate into disrespectful judgments. It was naive to think that a forum dedicated to polyamory-- something that's inherently vulnerable to judgments from our social networks-- would be more sensitive.
What I was hoping for was experiences. To those of you who shared your experiences, thank you. Those who have experience being someone's secret seem inclined to not repeat the experience. That is useful information to me.
I am disappointed by the disrespectful judgments on BDaemon. She's struggling with tough decisions, she is hurting, and we jump down her throat. Perhaps we can find it in your hearts to offer loving advice and your experience to BDaemon rather than our 'moral superiority'. Look back at our words, ask yourself, if you were in her place, how would those words affect you? Were they helpful? Would they persuade you to feel differently? Would you cease to love the person whose secret you are? Would the pain you feel hurt LESS after someone accused you of 'puppies and rainbows'?
Or would our words hurt and alienate you?
Again, thank you to those who shared your experiences. I will ponder your words and reflect.
What I was hoping for was experiences. To those of you who shared your experiences, thank you. Those who have experience being someone's secret seem inclined to not repeat the experience. That is useful information to me.
I am disappointed by the disrespectful judgments on BDaemon. She's struggling with tough decisions, she is hurting, and we jump down her throat. Perhaps we can find it in your hearts to offer loving advice and your experience to BDaemon rather than our 'moral superiority'. Look back at our words, ask yourself, if you were in her place, how would those words affect you? Were they helpful? Would they persuade you to feel differently? Would you cease to love the person whose secret you are? Would the pain you feel hurt LESS after someone accused you of 'puppies and rainbows'?
Or would our words hurt and alienate you?
Again, thank you to those who shared your experiences. I will ponder your words and reflect.
No, I thank you for your candidness. It's all stuff I'd pretty much considered and have been trying to work my way through. I realize that I might be on the losing side of things and of course I might get hurt. I'm not so naive to believe everything could come up roses. But I also know I've never come across a situation where I've felt as strongly about a person before, to the point where I didn't feel jealously towards their significant other and actually want them to stay together. To have that happen says something far different about this situations than others, to the point where I at least want to attempt compromise.
However, not as the "secret". I know for a fact I can't continue as that. If that means waiting in the wings and it only being friendship for now....then that's what I'll do, and continue to hope that he and I can find a way to make it work with his wife some day. If something is worth it, it's worth it to be patient and with open communication. I know that now.
Thank you Tigger for the understanding. It seems once some people see certain trigger words or situations, they automatically believe that the person is morally unethical and therefore deserving of some kind of shaming. (as if that helps the situation at all) No, I do not want to be the mistress or the woman-on-the-side or whatever the heck frisky and nycindie want to assume I am, or assume I am okay with. I'm not. If I was okay with the situation, I wouldn't bother asking for advice. I wouldn't be bothering trying to change things, and make up for initial mistakes. I'm new to this whole shebang and I thought opening up here was the best place for feedback from people who've been there, and though I knew not all of it would be positive...I guess I was thinking there would be a lot less venom.
InfinitePossibility
New member
What?
ONE person admitted that it was "a bit fun"...I hardly think that translates to a "number of people"...
The OP and one other person talked about it being fun to be a secret. One other person is clearly looking for a way that an affair can become legit. That seems like a number of people to me.
Even one person saying that it's fun to lie, cheat and sneak around behind somebody's back seems like a lot to me. To have anybody at all back it up feels like a lot to me.
So it might hardly translate into a "number of people" to you. It does to me.
It's funny you should refer to it as that. I've often heard polyamory as a whole be described as just a "legit affair" from mono-oriented people.
CattivaGattina
New member
There's a world a difference between polyamory (where everyone involved at least knows that people have multiple relationships) and an affair you are hiding from a partner.
Thanks. That's what I thought (about the metamour thing), but since someone else used the term in reference to her, I wasn't sure. Like I said, still learning.
She can't deny him visitation, but the way things are now, Guy travels on business 10 months out of the year. He's "home" about once a month for a weekend during those ten months, and then is off the road for two months. During his weekends home and the two non-traveling months, he stays with that ex to co-parent their son, who's on the autism spectrum. (He also stays there because right now he pays for her housing and can't afford to stay anywhere else.) I don't know what their custody agreement says in terms of visitation, but she's told him if he has a girlfriend--any girlfriend, mono or poly--she won't let him stay with her and their son anymore, which would greatly cut down the amount of time he's able to see the boy.
So let me get this straight, based on what I'm seeing here - I get close to a guy I care significantly about who is married, we back off before anything hot and heavy goes down and leads to regret and irrevocable damage in favor of trying to figure the situation out and not make any more mistakes, and it still gets labeled an "affair" as if we've been sneaking around in sin for years messing around. Is that how I understand it? That cut & dry around here, huh?
Christ, where's my big red "A" I get to sew on? Clearly that's what some people here believe should happen.
CattivaGattina
New member
If nothing happened, no it's not cheating or an affair. But if you decided to still get together, kiss, have sex, go on dates and hide that from his wife, yes it is an affair and cheating.
Alleycat
New member
Polyamory:
It's ok to to have non-standard relationship ethics, and behave outside of standard sexual and interpersonal conventions, Except when your ethics and/or behaviours are different than those of the morality police in the echo chamber.
Then your just a terrible awful cheating hussy whore-pants McGee. Shame! Shame! Shame!
It's ok to to have non-standard relationship ethics, and behave outside of standard sexual and interpersonal conventions, Except when your ethics and/or behaviours are different than those of the morality police in the echo chamber.
Then your just a terrible awful cheating hussy whore-pants McGee. Shame! Shame! Shame!
I think you may be taking things that have been said more personally than was intended. When I first started using this forum I thought that some responses were a bit harsh but I think a lot of it is down to differences in communication style. We may all speak English, but we come from different places and what may be plain speaking to some may seem harsh and judgemental to others. In the end the opinions of others don't matter, you only have to be true to yourself.
None of us are perfect, we all make mistakes one way or the other so I don't think most of the responses were intended to be judgemental, I think it was more about trying to tell you are likely to get hurt, and perhaps to offer you a different viewpoint. Don't give up on the forum because a lot of people here are very helpful (even if their advice is difficult to hear at times). I wish you well, I genuinely hope that you can find way forward that works for all concerned, but I think the odds are against you.
I wouldn't want to be kept secret, especially from other partners. I want to be able to be openly affectionate or at least not have to watch my words to make sure I don't accidentally let it slip I saw him the other day, and he said he was in a meeting, or whatever drama results from lying and cheating and going behind people's back. It's just too much work and effort even if I didn't find it a total turn-off to begin with that someone is willing to cheat, or doesn't respect me enough to let others know we're together.
PaperGrace
New member
This thread reminded me of a short blog that someone resurrected. http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1779
This guy took things a little further with his secret, but I believed in his good intentions and admired his willingness to take a hard look at his mistakes.
This guy took things a little further with his secret, but I believed in his good intentions and admired his willingness to take a hard look at his mistakes.
Hi Tigger40,
If I understand correctly, your question was, Has anyone here been in a cheating situation (such as a man with a lover his wife doesn't know about), and if so, what were the results?
I have heard more than a few people say that their polyamorous life started out as a cheating situation (an affair). I even know of one situation where the cheated-on spouse never found out about the cheating, and yet the situation eventually morphed into a polyamorous arrangement which that spouse did agree to -- though he agreed without finding out about the cheating. So does that count as bonafide consent? I don't know; maybe not.
Most of the cases I heard of ended with the affair being discovered by the cheated-on spouse, and there was a whole lot of pain and heartache before anything got resolved. Sometimes the person who was the secret lover had to be ejected from the picture before anything could get resolved, even if the original couple did eventually decide to try (open/honest) polyamory. So the secret lover did not end up being able to be a part of that happy ending.
Cheating is, arguably and/or admittedly, exciting in some ways while it lasts, but it's reeeally dangerous behavior to engage in. Part of the counsel I usually give people who are cheating is, if you really feel you must cheat, at least have an exit strategy to end the dishonest dynamic as soon as possible. Otherwise you're tempting fate to hit everyone over the head with a big ol' hammer. Secrets have a way of getting found out.
Okay, so now you know more about what the practical outcomes and likelihoods are. Now, what about the moral/ethical considerations? Even if you knew you could cheat without getting caught ... even if you knew you could have a great time without paying for it ... wouldn't you still want to refrain from doing it because of the wrongness of the dishonesty?
Yes, as has been mentioned in this thread, many polyamorists (me included) lie by omission to most of their traditional friends/family. So I guess you could argue that polyamorists are hypocrites to be preaching about honesty. But I believe there's a big difference between what you tell your extended family and what you tell your spouse. Your spouse has a special right to know stuff that the rest of the family perhaps doesn't.
I have done many wrong things in my day, and thus have no authority to act like I'm standing on higher ground. But the ethical code I currently try to adhere to forbids me to condone being the secret lover of someone whose spouse doesn't know. It forbids me not because of the practical risks (which are many), but because of the moral implications. Cheating is just too darn dishonest for me to condone it.
Now what if there was a cheating situation that morphed into a poly arrangement, and somehow everyone managed to not get hurt in the process? I guess you could argue that if no one gets hurt, then no obvious moral code has been violated. I don't know the answer to that riddle. I do know that cheating tends to put multiple people at great risk of getting hurt, and in that sense it's immoral.
It would be like letting a couple of toddlers play with a loaded gun. If no one got shot, well, then, maybe no moral laws were violated. But the fact that people were inserted into a very risky situation makes it irresponsible at best.
But strictly in answer to your question: Yes I do know of a few secret affairs that morphed into poly configurations -- not painlessly though. I think if those people had it to do over, they'd do it differently.
Hope that helps.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
If I understand correctly, your question was, Has anyone here been in a cheating situation (such as a man with a lover his wife doesn't know about), and if so, what were the results?
I have heard more than a few people say that their polyamorous life started out as a cheating situation (an affair). I even know of one situation where the cheated-on spouse never found out about the cheating, and yet the situation eventually morphed into a polyamorous arrangement which that spouse did agree to -- though he agreed without finding out about the cheating. So does that count as bonafide consent? I don't know; maybe not.
Most of the cases I heard of ended with the affair being discovered by the cheated-on spouse, and there was a whole lot of pain and heartache before anything got resolved. Sometimes the person who was the secret lover had to be ejected from the picture before anything could get resolved, even if the original couple did eventually decide to try (open/honest) polyamory. So the secret lover did not end up being able to be a part of that happy ending.
Cheating is, arguably and/or admittedly, exciting in some ways while it lasts, but it's reeeally dangerous behavior to engage in. Part of the counsel I usually give people who are cheating is, if you really feel you must cheat, at least have an exit strategy to end the dishonest dynamic as soon as possible. Otherwise you're tempting fate to hit everyone over the head with a big ol' hammer. Secrets have a way of getting found out.
Okay, so now you know more about what the practical outcomes and likelihoods are. Now, what about the moral/ethical considerations? Even if you knew you could cheat without getting caught ... even if you knew you could have a great time without paying for it ... wouldn't you still want to refrain from doing it because of the wrongness of the dishonesty?
Yes, as has been mentioned in this thread, many polyamorists (me included) lie by omission to most of their traditional friends/family. So I guess you could argue that polyamorists are hypocrites to be preaching about honesty. But I believe there's a big difference between what you tell your extended family and what you tell your spouse. Your spouse has a special right to know stuff that the rest of the family perhaps doesn't.
I have done many wrong things in my day, and thus have no authority to act like I'm standing on higher ground. But the ethical code I currently try to adhere to forbids me to condone being the secret lover of someone whose spouse doesn't know. It forbids me not because of the practical risks (which are many), but because of the moral implications. Cheating is just too darn dishonest for me to condone it.
Now what if there was a cheating situation that morphed into a poly arrangement, and somehow everyone managed to not get hurt in the process? I guess you could argue that if no one gets hurt, then no obvious moral code has been violated. I don't know the answer to that riddle. I do know that cheating tends to put multiple people at great risk of getting hurt, and in that sense it's immoral.
It would be like letting a couple of toddlers play with a loaded gun. If no one got shot, well, then, maybe no moral laws were violated. But the fact that people were inserted into a very risky situation makes it irresponsible at best.
But strictly in answer to your question: Yes I do know of a few secret affairs that morphed into poly configurations -- not painlessly though. I think if those people had it to do over, they'd do it differently.
Hope that helps.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
We're clearly dealing with an issue that triggers a strong reaction in you
The reality is that cheating is a widespread phenomena. Although polyamory is definitely NOT about cheating, many people start exploring poly as a result of an affair, either as a participant or as a 'victim'.
A bit of compassion never hurt anyone....
InfinitePossibility
New member
We're clearly dealing with an issue that triggers a strong reaction in you
Indeed we are.
I've always found it hard to deal with situations where people or animals are harmed. I've been like this since I was a kid. Some of the harm is hard for individuals to avoid - the ongoing wars that governments in the west participate in that kill millions, the treatment of animals kept as livestock etc. Some of the harm isn't. Some harms we can predict and avoid causing by looking at our own behaviour and modifying it accordingly. I very much agree that sometimes it's difficult. Feelings happen, people make mistakes, nobody is perfect. That's all understandable.
What I cannot understand is the people who say that the sneaking around is fun, the keeping of secrets makes things exciting while knowing that there is somebody who is very likely to be harmed by those secrets. Some people are harmed very badly by affairs when they come to light. In families with children, it's possible to harm multiple people. I don't think I could ever understand the notion that knowingly putting complete strangers at that sort of risk can be fun.
I guess that's the trigger for me. The putting of unsuspecting others at risk and then enjoying that situation.
Indeed it is. So is domestic violence. I don't know that just because things are widespread makes them okay.
I'm sure that people get a bit of a thrill out of violence as well. I would be just as bothered if I was reading a thread where one person was seeking a way to make it okay to continue inflicting violence on somebody who hadn't consented. And more bothered if people chipped and told about how they also had found a real thrill in violence - even if they'd eventually stopped because of the risks of going to prison or accidentally killing somebody.
copperhead
New member
Wow, that blog was worth reading.