Two months in, and still struggling

[tincuptt]

Hi all,

I'm a first timer on here. This is a great forum. I appreciate being able to read about everyone's various situations; it makes me feel better about my own, as I don't feel so alone, despite having no friends to share my situation with.

My wife and I have been together about 9 years. She is bisexual, and until a couple of years ago, only desired to have sex with females (other than me). I am completely mono. A couple of years ago, she started openly fantasizing about males, and I eventually let her know I was ok with the concept of her being a hotwife-- having casual sex with males, primarily as something I would watch, but no emotions, and nothing ongoing.

After many close calls within the last six months, Claire met a guy and immediately began an intimate emotional relationship. She kept me well-informed, but let me know she intended to have a sexual and emotional relationship with him, saying that she couldn't have sex unless it was meaningful. I asked her to take it slow, as I wasn't prepared for it, but she went forward anyway. And now we are two months in to this.

Originally she said since I opened the door to her having sex with another male that I had to respect her decision to do it on her terms. Eventually she backed down and took responsibility for the fact that she was hurting me by doing something I didn't approve of. We have had good communication, which eventually led her to introduce me to this forum. It is important to note that she has been very miserable for the last few years, and this relationship has opened a window of happiness for her that I haven't seen in a long time. (We've had major major external problems, but no serious relationship things.)

Here are my challenges-- first and foremost, every time I feel myself moving towards accepting the polyamory concept for us (I really believe she is sincerely polyamorous), I feel that it just validates her decision to have proceeded without my approval. I understand it's her body and her decisions, but if she had just taken it slower I probably would be much more accepting. I worry that if I come to openly accept the relationship, then I've opened the door to her continuing to do "what she wants" without regards to any agreements we have in place.

How do you balance that?

The other question (at least for now, I've got tons of them, really) is-- how do you keep your jealousy in check? I have never been jealous of the attention Claire gets from males (it's always been over the top), but obviously this is completely new to me, and I haven't handled it well. I know that I have to do everything to keep it internalized, and instead deal with the root causes, but darn, it's near impossible. I have broken down in front of her at least five times (and not in front of her twice that many times) and it just pushes her away. And even though I tell myself not to ask her to stop, I just did it again last night. If I end up forcing her to stop this relationship, it will make ours a living hell. "Pursuing a hobby" is not an easy option for me, because I have to watch our kids when she's with New Guy, and it's at that time that I go craziest.

In fairness to her, now that NRE has subsided some, she has treated me more fairly about our time, and I have received some benefit (better sex, and I'm much more in touch with my feelings for her). But I can't stop this daily feeling that I just wish she'd end it with New Guy.

 

[Ariakas]

Keeping emotions out of sex is almost always tougher than it seems.

So you are concerned with her almost being like a child, where you're giving her an inch, she's taking a mile, and continuing on while you sit there and watch her bounce around? That's a tough one, because you have to trust in her.

Really, in the end, the door is open. Some people can only handle so many romantic relationships at once. Others date like fiends. Others are somewhere in between. Would her committing to you and him only quell your fears?

I have broken down in front of her at least five times (and not in front of her twice that many times) and it just pushes her away. And even though I tell myself not to ask her to stop...

That concerns me. Why is she pushing you away? Is she really, or is this something you are seeing through your own glasses? Even at her worst point of NRE, she should still be empathetic to your challenges. Pushing you away is like ignoring the problem and moving on, hoping you will figure your own shit out. That ignorance of your feelings is a bit of a yellow flag, in my opinion, anyway.

There are lots of posts on jealousy. Maybe read up on them. Find the root of your jealousy. I think you have nailed part of it. You fear the "Will this ever stop?" syndrome. If you give over completely, how and when will you ever get your needs met? She has already proven to ignore one of those needs.

Also (and others may disagree), if you suffered no jealousy before, it might be something about the new guy throwing you off. Maybe you just don't like him, or maybe there is actually something there you just can't quite get, throwing you into protective mode. It's a true balance between being a good and strong husband and trying to protect your wife, vs allowing her her own freedom. Are you concerned about a potential cowboy (man coming in and trying to steal her instead of a true poly relationship) or worse yet, a man taking advantage of her polyness and using her for sex? Not sure either would be correct, but you might be getting a vibe, making you defensive.

I haven't really given you any advice, sorry, just babbling. Your post has struck a cord because I usually see it in reverse. As the monogamous person in a poly relationship, you have an uphill battle I think. (There is a guy named Mono on this site. Look for his early posts. They might be able to shed some light on it.)

Also, since you seem to also be the stay-at-home dad, I would be concerned with potential dependency issues, which may or may not be the case. But if you are stuck (and I use that word purposefully) at home with the kids, while she gets to play, that creates potential resentment. Why not find a babysitter? I realize this costs money, but at these early stages it could be very difficult to be at home while she is out having her fun.

 

[ray]

Hey, welcome! I'm sorry that you're feeling hurt. I'm pretty new to all of this myself, only a few months in. For me jealousy is usually about something else.

I'm dating O (a man) who is married to A (a woman). For a while, I didn't feel much jealousy at all.

Then there was this girl that was interrupted time that we'd previously had alone (circumstances beyond our control) and I still have a hard time not feeling jealous when he pays her lots of attention. Part of me is afraid he'll find her more interesting and stop caring about me. But the truth is that he does care, and whether or not he's talking to this girl doesn't change that.

I think it's different for everyone. The other thing to consider is that maybe things really are moving too fast for you, and if they were slower, you would find the jealousy more manageable. It sounds like she hurt you by moving too fast. It might be hard to deal with the jealousy until you resolve the hurt feelings you have regarding her violating your boundaries.

 

[tincuptt]

Some more facts about New Guy might shed light on my jealousy. I'm 45. He's 27, no kids, no responsibilities. Claire goes over to his place, cooks dinner for him and his roommate, hangs out and watches sports (like we used to). She gets to go out on nice dates, etc. We really can't afford a babysitter more than once a week, and that is the time that Claire and I have carved out for our date own night, which was part of the bargaining over all of this.

Claire is very much like a child. She tends to be bouncy about things, and has emotional ADD at times. When we have "serious" conversations, she will literally change subjects mid-sentence.

I appreciate the comments. I will keep looking for posts on jealousy.

As far as not trusting the guy, part of the challenge is that she won't let me meet him, although I have seen him out a couple of times, and Claire is so open with me that I feel I do know him well enough to realize he's not a "threat," in the sense of my long-term security. Also, as part of our current agreement, Claire has made me promise that I accept and believe that she will never leave me for another man (especially him). Given his background, I do believe her, although I wonder what would happen in a future relationship with someone else.

And, "Oh, by the way," she has declared to me that she's open to having more than just this one side relationship, and continues to meet new men, although nothing sexual seems likely at this time, as she committed to New Guy that she wouldn't have sex with anyone else (other than me, of course),

 

[ray]

Hmm, why won't she let you meet him? I'm not trying to imply you shouldn't trust her, I'm just curious, since you mention wanting to meet him.

 

[Ariakas]

Okay, ignoring the fact he is younger and unattached, you need to find strength in your long-term relationship. Every new secondary relationship kind of feels like this. The secondaries get the icing. The fun happy-go-lucky unattached feeling happens with someone new. You need to find your relationship strength in the struggles you have had as a couple in building your long-term love.

As far as not trusting the guy, part of the challenge is that she won't let me meet him, although I have seen him out a couple of times. Claire is open with me. I feel I do know him well enough to realize he's not a "threat," in the sense of my long-term security.

This is a double-edged sword. You can't confront the other side, so you don't know what or who your opponent is. It creates a level of unknown which can create massive insecurities.

Another massive insecurity is the fear of the unknown. While we haven't read her side of the story, it doesn't appear she is giving any leeway to you. She is pushing constantly. At some point, she needs to slow down, or even in your very acceptable behavior you will probably break.

 

[tincuptt]

Hmm, why won't she let you meet him? I'm not trying to imply you shouldn't trust her, I'm just curious since you mention wanting to meet him.

1) She doesn't want him to see my pain, and I don't think she trusts that I will avoid confrontation (not physical, but emotional).
2) I think she feels that if he has to meet me, that he'll want to end it. He has asked her very little about me, and he goes out of his way to make sure that our paths don't cross. He never phones her at our home, and he does not try to intrude on time that's not designated for him. It's like they have a good thing and don't want to jeopardize it.
3) I think it's easier for her to continue to do it if its not "real" for her. I know that sounds contradictory, since she'll only have sex with someone she cares for, but the separation of her two lives makes it easier for her. Plus I don't think she wants us sharing war stories.

While I wouldn't say I have 100% trust, Claire is extremely honest about facts. Even if I can't always get a straight answer on her feelings, she is brutally honest about anything I ask her factually. So at least I always feel like I know what's going on.

 

[ray]

What do you think it would be like if you two met? Would you want to have an emotional discussion, or could you do a light meet and greet?

I can see where Claire's coming from on "keeping it separate," and it's good that he wants to respect the time you and she have. I feel fairly certain, however, that I, personally, would not be happy not meeting the primary partner of my SO. Like Ari said, when you haven't met, it's this big unknown and it's scary and intimidating. When you meet you can stop imagining and just get to know them. Some people like the DADT/separate approach. I like having those connections.

 

[Ariakas]

1) She doesn't want him to see my pain, and I don't think she trusts that I will avoid confrontation (not physical, but emotional).

Sometimes, knowing and understanding your "other" makes things easier, not harder. Having a face, a body and a connection with them can truly help. It does in most cases I have seen.

2) I think she feels that if he has to meet me, that he'll want to end it, He has asked her very little about me, and he goes out of his way to make sure that our paths don't cross. He never phones her at our home, and he does not try to intrude on time that's not designated for him. It's like they have a good thing and don't want to jeopardize it.

So he has her for his time with her body, but doesn't have to deal with her the rest of the time. He and she are not polyamorous. He is her "mistress" and he likes it.

3) I think it's easier for her to continue to do it if its not "real" for her. I know that sounds contradictory, since she'll only have sex with someone she cares for, but the separation of her two lives makes it easier for her. Plus I don't think she wants us sharing war stories.

I am not trying to be a dick with this next part, just an observation. The 20th century idea behind a mistress was the basis that the man in the growing suburbs would be able to have his wife, kids, house, picket fence, while working in the big city. He would have his loft with a hot young thang available for weekly sexual fun. A kept woman. In reverse, if I remember right, the man is called a paramour. While this isn't inherently a bad thing, it still isn't reading as if it is polyamory.

Maybe she does this because it's the dirty little secret effect. Maybe she enjoys this setup because of the separation and private division of sexual and emotional rights.

In all cases, it's not polyamory.

While I wouldn't say I have 100% trust, Claire is extremely honest about facts..Even if I cant always get a straight answer on her feelings, she is brutally honest about anything I ask her factually. So at least I always feel I know what's going on.

Extreme honesty, for the record, does not include not getting a straight answer on feelings. Using brutal honesty on facts to mask brutal honesty on emotions does not reveal theentire picture. As a very logic-based person, I can weave a web of deceit using logic that is very truthful, but shows the other person nothing. 0's and 1's have that ability.

I think what you describe can work, but you need to figure out what you want from this, what she is truly looking for, and in the end, what you can handle. In that set of truths you can figure out how to adapt to your marriage being open.

 

[GroundedSpirit]

In fairness to her, now that NRE has subsided some, she has treated me more fairly about our time, and I have received some benefit (better sex, and I'm much more in touch with my feelings for her). But I can't stop this daily feeling that I just wish she'd end it with new guy.

Hey Tincuppt,

This is good. You've survived the hardest phase. It gets easier from here, usually, if you keep perspective.

Here's an important fundamental that I think is important to grasp. There are many people that can't find real sexual stimulation/satisfaction without some emotional connection. And I think, statistically, you will find this especially true with most women. It's not a bad thing. Don't look at is as such. Ideally, you should feel a bond with someone you have sex with, in most cases. Not to say a one-time quickie can't be exciting too, but long term it's seldom enough to meet the requirements.

This is what causes so many horror stories in the swinger community. It's rare that people can separate sex and bonding for long. Many try to deceive themselves with rules (no bonding allowed), but has there ever been a rule not broken? Better to not make stupid rules you know in advance are unreasonable.

Bonding is not a threat. Don't be afraid of it. You can both (as you've discovered already) benefit from more happiness and contentment in your relationship. It's a win/win if you allow it to be. Sounds like you are headed in that direction. Awesome. Refocus, keep paddling, enjoy the ride.

 

[tincuptt]

Ariakis and GroundedSpirit,

Thanks for your insight. I'm starting to see the difference between polyamory and open relationship. I think right now it's a lot closer to open. Perhaps over time we'll both evolve into a full polyamorous situation, regardless of whether I stay monoamorous or not.

Bottom line is that no matter what it is, my biggest hurdle is to contain my emotions. I continue to freak out every time she's about to go see New Guy, and then I beat myself up over acting out.

Can you have compersion in an open marriage that's not truly poly, as you guys define it? I think ultimately I need to get there, because I profess to only want happiness for Claire, and this clearly makes her happy. So therefore I feel I'm being "wrong" for begrudging her, especially as I believe that this is no real threat to our marriage (unless I screw it up), and with the only negative factor to me being that she "cares" for this person she's having sex with. And yes, I hesitate to even call this a "negative factor" now.

Thanks again.

 

[Tonberry]

It seems to me you're in a pretty hard situation.

He seems to get the good parts, and when you need help dealing with the situation, she just abandons you. I can understand it would be hard for her too. But one way for you to get better over it is for her to make you feel important. While there are people who want all the attention, you don't seem to be that way at all.

It's important that she recognizes her responsibility in breaking your boundaries and cheating on you. When you fully accept polyamory, if you do, that won't mean what happened before wasn't cheating. Cheating means breaking the rules, and she certainly did, and seems not to have cared much about it, and blamed it on you instead. She needs to take responsibility if she wants it to get better.

The fact that you can't meet him worries me. It would be much better for you to have some contact, at least. What if something happened to her and you needed to get together to work through it? What if you wanted to plan a surprise for her together?

Separating the two and living a double life, I could understand if it was really the same, if she lived half the time with one of you, half the time with the other. But at times it sounds like she's acting like a teenager, being out all day or night and expecting you to take care of the house and kids in the meantime.

And the fact he doesn't want to meet you... I'm worried he's either trying to recreate a cheating situation, because he's more comfortable with that, or that he's a cowboy. Either way, I feel he needs to really acknowledge the situation for what it is: a relationship involving all three of you.

Dealing with jealousy is always tricky. But right now, I can't really blame you. It seems like she decides and you just have the right to take it with a smile.

Polyamorous relationships require time, patience and communication, especially poly/mono ones. It sucks when you're the one who has to slow down because a partner requires you to, but if you value them, and you're not being incredibly unreasonable (and you don't sound so) I feel you need to take the time to show them everything is fine, until they're comfortable enough that you can proceed.

She's going too fast, without taking you into account. By doing that, she risks reaching your breaking point, when you won't be able to take it anymore. If she slows it down, she's likely to be able to keep both relationships as long as she takes everyone's feelings into account. Being the hinge means you get two people (or more) who care for you, but also that you need to take care of both (or all) of them. It's not all fun and games; there is a lot of responsibility involved in it.

 

[redpepper]

I have a big red flag on the "no meeting" thing. She's afraid that you will blow up emotionally? Perhaps it's time to sit down and make some goals. What is it that she hopes to achieve out of this arrangement? What do you hope to achieve? What could you do that would make it easier for her? When can you meet him and how would she like to see this happen? What would she like from you in this regard? When do you get to go out and seek out what you desire in life? When can she take the kids/kid so you can have your time? Maybe she should take the kids with her sometime when she goes to see him so that you can have your time.

I know what we read here is one-sided, and it's hard to know what goes on for her, but what is this really about? Is she a mum that is struggling with parenting, and finds that she keeps her sanity by hanging out with younger people, pretending she is still at that stage? Is she really still lost in NRE and being selfish? Are you the type to sit back and let her do what she likes while she thinks it's okay? It's so hard to tell.

Really, the only thing I can grasp onto is the fact that you have not met. This is a big one in poly. The idea is that we all support one another and have consideration for one another by knowing one another. This is not polyamory, to me, but open. All very well, but there are different ideas around open and polyamory, and if you are struggling, then maybe some good ol' defining together might be in order. Get on the same page. Back to having a chat about common goals, perhaps.

 

[mumbles]

Redpepper knows what she's talking about. You're your own person, but her "red flag" call was spot on with me. It led me to face some personal demons and I've found myself changed.

Just a vote of confidence.

 

[tincuptt]

Redpepper knows what she's talking about. You're your own person, but her "red flag" call was spot on with me. It lead me to face some personal demons and I've found myself changed.

If you could clarify for me, please-- this red flag, is it a concern in general, or is it simply a red flag that Claire doesn't understand or subscribe to in polyamory? I'm not even positive that I want to meet him myself. I don't really have a lot of worry that he's got some ulterior motive. There aren't many single 27-year old bachelors who are looking to steal a wife and four kids away. If all the facts are true, as she's disclosed (and I've done wayyyy too much fact checking) then this guy is just along for the ride, doesn't want anything more than he's getting, since he has a perfect situation for him presumably (no commitment, good sex, and someone who cares for him without it getting too serious).

Is it possible that this is just an "open" marriage we have, and that we really aren't ready for pure polyamory? Until a month ago, I had never heard of this, so I don't profess to have a great understanding yet, if it even applies to our situation. That being said, from what I've read on this forum and in other research, polyamory seems to be a pretty awesome concept. If she's not there, but aspires for it, do I push for something that really isn't critical to me right now (talking to New Guy)?

Sorry, lots of questions.

 

[ray]

I would be a bit put off by the whole not meeting thing myself. It doesn't mean necessarily that there is anything wrong going on between the two of them, but I think it is healthy to at least have a short face to face. Doesn't mean you two need to be best friends. And as previously stated, if there's some issue standing in the way, it might be good to work through it. Some people like not meeting, generally known as DADT (don't ask, don't tell) or some variation of it. Not something I want to do. Maybe you and she could just discuss further why she really doesn't want to. Or ask her if she simply doesn't want the three of you socializing, but would be ok with a quick introduction. I think it's worth some consideration, though.

 

[redpepper]

She might be comfortable with a DADT policy, and if that is so, then that is fine. It just sounds a little concerning that they aren't interested in you knowing him. To me, it says something about who you are to her, and who he is, if she doesn't want you to meet. It makes me think that she is content in her escapism when she goes to his house and that she has one foot out of her reality.

Sometimes when metamours meet, they discover that the whole thing is real. It sounds to me that this guy might be living in a fantasy world also. This might move you all forward into the future and what arrangements you could have that would work for all.

I would suggest that a conversation about what she intends and what you intend from her relationship and your future is in order. It doesn't sound like you know what she has planned or what plans they have made, if any, for a future. That is not to say that they have to have a plan and that this has to be a serious long-term thing, but you have a family and she is your wife. Usually those two things come along with a life plan that you share together. How does he fit in, if at all? If there are big plans for them, then shouldn't you know them? If they have plans, would that not include you? Would you not have a right to know the person that is intent on being in your wife's life for the long haul?

Ray is right. You don't have to be best buds. But at some point acknowledging what is going on here would have to happen. Metamours defining their relationship is the foundation of a long-term poly arrangement, I think. That has to start with meeting.

 

[Tonberry]

There aren't many single 27 year old bachelors who are looking to steal a wife and four kids away

Maybe. But maybe he's interested in the wife, knowing she's already had kids, and he won't have to "provide" any, and that you'll be there to take care of the kids while she's out with him. This isn't necessarily very fair to you. Getting to know you could help with that. Possibly getting involved with the kids in some way (as a friend of you guys), ideally to take care of them for the two of you to go out on a date, would I think be ideal later down the road.

When you start a relationship with someone, you take them the way they are, with all their baggage: that include the kids and the existing partners.

That being said, I don't want to be too categorical here. I hear DADT works for some people. I still you need to ask yourself if it really does for you.

 

[Vexxed]

I'm turned on by hotwife/cuckold fantasies. I have been having trouble with jealousy. You have my sympathy.

I believe that she should be able to go on from here, respecting your boundaries and expectations. They need to be clearly stated and understood, and the two of you should agree on them.

 

[tincuptt]

Maybe he's interested in Claire, knowing she's already had kids, and he won't have to "provide" any, and that you'll be there to take care of the kids while she's out with him. This isn't very fair to you. Getting to know you could help with that. Possibly getting involved with the kids in some way (as a friend of you guys), ideally to take care of them for the two of you to go out on a date, would I think be ideal later down the road. When you start a relationship with someone, you take them the way they are, with all their baggage: that include the kids and the existing partners.

Between the responses I'm getting here, and the other threads I've read, it seems pretty common that the two males should have some communication. Let me know what you think about this. Neither of them want to have me meet him, so how about if I sent him an email? That way they would feel less threatened, and yet it would still force him to understand that there is another person around. Lord knows what I would say to him, but it might be easier for me, as well.

I feel like I need to do something because, after two plus months, I'm no closer to accepting it, and no closer to "forcing" her to end it. It's like a purgatory for me.