Why?

Tri46guy

New member
So why is it that fear of losing the people we love the most makes us treat them shittier than anyone else? What sense is there in that? And why does insecurity cause people to do crap that is the exact opposite of what would make sense. Bad day. Yesterday poly sounded like a great idea. Today, I think maybe poly is a very bad idea.
 

Bella999

New member
Mathematics has something to do with it.

With two people, there are only two elements of argumentation or disagreement. You don't agree with him, or she doesn't agree with you.

However, when you bring in a third person, there are now 6 elements of contention. Think of a triangle. Three sides with each side containing two possible directions of contention.

It just gets more and more complicated.

IMHO, it all has more to do with personality types than anything.
 

GalaGirl

Well-known member
Not sure what you are alluding to. I am sorry if you are being treated poorly by someone right now.


In the general sense? IME dating some people like that? Here's what I think happens in their heads... I don't know if it helps you any or if it is just me talking to the air. FWIW?

So why is it that fear of losing the people we love the most makes us treat them shittier than anyone else?

It's a way to hold them at arms distance so they can't hurt you too bad when they leave.

Folks like this do not view themselves living their lives like "I am the captain of my own ship." They view themselves more like "leaf blown about in the wind." Things just happen TO them.

What sense is there in that?

If you hold them at arm's distance? They cannot see how "horrible" you are and then maybe they won't leave you too soon. (BONUS: you get to complain they never really loved the REAL you when they go.)

And if they DO leave you because you keep them at arm's distance? It just proves that they really didn't love you anyway because they didn't take the trouble to climb the wall. (That you put up to keep them out. But let's not mention that, shall we?)

Both approaches reinforce a core belief of "I am not lovable." So both is a "Win" for the person holding that core belief. The belief gets reinforced either way.

Both approaches also let the person be "off the hook" for taking personal responsibility over their own behavior contributing to the situation making. It's all "the other guy doing it" or the "other guy not doing enough."

Translates as a win for the insecure person. It wasn't their fault! Nothing is ever their fault. "Poor me, nobody loves me" stuff. (Reinforces belief they are unloveable.)

And it makes for a great sob story for the next person they date... how the ex just never really loved them, etc.

It's not a healthy way of going, but there's "wins" all over the place! If you are not after being healthy and just are after the "win" of getting that wonky core belief reinforced? It's like hitting jackpot many times over.

And why does insecurity cause people to do crap that is the exact opposite of what would make sense.

Why does the blind person not see? Cuz blind.

Why does the deaf person not hear? Cuz deaf.

Why does the insecure person do insecure things that make no sense? Cuz insecure.

Until they decide to become secure? They will keep on keeping on like they have in the past.

Besides... being insecure and doing insecure things to sabotage their relationships helps them maintain the core belief of "I am not loveable." It works for them. Win!

Galagirl
 
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Tri46guy

New member
Actually I made it sound one sided and its not. Its just my wife has been interested in pursuing poly and we discused/did therapy for a year and a half while I was the one dealing with the fear of losing her and dealing with my insecurities and at times dealing with it poorly.. but then she started to move forward with the poly guy she was interested in and his wife asked for time so movement on that has been stalled for her. But a few days ago we had a good talk about it all where I expressed more of what I might want...

Up until now Ive been very careful, maybe too careful, about saying I wouldnt do anything unless or until she did... but this time I was clear that if there was a way to do it without hurting her or losing our relationship (which is super important to me) then yes, Id like that opportunity to date and connect with others too. She was good with that for 24 hours and we even had great sex after that talk, but then insecurities and fear started flowing freely with a torrent of things ranging from accusations about how I spend money too freely to concerns about how I divide my time between her and work and exercise... just bad day for her and I totally understand as Ive been there... but it just sucks for everyone that fear of losing someone makes us say and do stupid shit. So Im not blaming her - she needs time to adjust to a perspective where it might not be all about her poly relationships but coud be about mine too. Lesson for me is I should have been thinking more about me sooner and been clearer about what I might want... but wasnt really sure and at some level I guess it still felt wrong and like something I shouldnt want...

Anyway just bitching about how life works with relationships really. It will be better in a few days.... thanks for thoughts...
 
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GalaGirl

Well-known member
Then I hope it blows over and you guys can come to be on the same page with concerns addressed.

Though I have to admit I find it pretty odd sounding. Are you saying that you were in therapy considering Open marriage for 18 months and never talked about an Open model where both of you could date? The counselor didn't bring it up?

Galagirl
 
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Spork

Active member
Holy crap, GalaGirl, you described my ex husband...and here I've been beating my head on a wall trying to understand why he continues these self-sabotaging thoughts and behaviors...

Wow!

Tri46guy, are you still considering coming out to Voodoo?

Next Friday (4/1) is First Fridays, which is a great get together thing at a bar downtown in the Springs (The Underground, on Nevada)...let me know if you wind up wanting to go to that and I'll introduce you to people. Then we've got the first Saturday tasting party at Voodoo on 4/2, which I plan to attend.

The tasting parties are great fun!

I hope things calm down between you and your wife, sounds like maybe she was just having a stressful and moody day, perhaps it will pass.
 

GirlFromTexlahoma

New member
but then insecurities and fear started flowing freely with a torrent of things ranging from accusations about how I spend money too freely to concerns about how I divide my time between her and work and exercise... just bad day for her and I totally understand as Ive been there... but it just sucks for everyone that fear of losing someone makes us say and do stupid shit

Sure, it's possible she was just throwing stuff out to hurt you because she was feeling insecure. And it sounds like your wife brought up these issues in an unhealthy way, and that sucks... But worries about how you spend your time and money doesn't seem like "stupid shit" to me. It sounds like real concern that the balance you guys have now will be disrupted if you seek other relationships. I don't worry at all about how much my husband loves someone else. I absolutely worry, a lot, about how much time and money he spends with them!

I hope you two are able to sit down and have an honest discussion about these things. It's the un-fun side of poly, but it's important.
 

Tri46guy

New member
Though I have to admit I find it pretty odd sounding. Are you saying that you were in therapy considering Open marriage for 18 months and never talked about an Open model where both of you could date? The counselor didn't bring it up?
Galagirl
Well, worded this way, I have to say I feel stupid and maybe some is my fault. Yes it came up and I did express some interest but really always qualified it with being willing to wait for her to decide what she wanted or something developing for her... and focusing on my interest in swinging (which we are doing and both cool with). But its not like I never discussed it - I did say that there were things about poly appealing to me and we even talked about two women I feel connections with... but really I never made a decision of "yes, this is something Id want for me too" until this discussion. I think I was avoiding that decision maybe...
 

Tri46guy

New member
Tri46guy, are you still considering coming out to Voodoo?.
Still trying to picture actually doing that... Not sure I can explore too many things at once though... too much going on....
 

Spork

Active member
Still trying to picture actually doing that... Not sure I can explore too many things at once though... too much going on....

OK. :) Don't try too hard to picture it. Your mind will give you a far more intimidating picture than the reality. If you ever decide to come out, let me know. It helps to have someone there that you've spoken to before, who can introduce you to others. Just tends to feel more comfortable that way.
 

Tri46guy

New member
Sure, it's possible she was just throwing stuff out to hurt you because she was feeling insecure. And it sounds like your wife brought up these issues in an unhealthy way, and that sucks... But worries about how you spend your time and money doesn't seem like "stupid shit" to me. It sounds like real con7cern that the balance you guys have now will be disrupted if you seek other relationships. I don't worry at all about how much my husband loves someone else. I absolutely worry, a lot, about how much time and money he spends with them!

Sure - I dont mean in any way to say money or time are stupid issues - not at all. I have real concerns about that too and about how it would work with others involved...But her approach to it was shitty and was coming from insecurity... it was stuff like how I spend money on skiing or other sports stuff, but I negotiate all of that with her in advance and stick to the plan... she was just thinking ahead about spending money and time on dating others and instead of really discussing that it was a freak out going back on stuff we had already agreed to... anyway its ok. We had a good resolution talk this morning and she apologized and said as much... we will sit down and figure it out when emotions are settled.

Its just all another lesson in how direct communication is best and how even if Im motivated by not trying to hurt her, that avoiding my own wants and decisions can come back to bite me in the ass... . But I was proud of myself for realizing I was making that mistake and bringing my actual wants forward... but I guess I should have done it sooner.

But I do hate this part of the possibility of poly leading to fear of loss that leads to crappy interactions like this from both of us at different times... this is the part about the whole thing that makes me just not want to go there...
 
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Tri46guy

New member
OK. :) Don't try too hard to picture it. Your mind will give you a far more intimidating picture than the reality. If you ever decide to come out, let me know. It helps to have someone there that you've spoken to before, who can introduce you to others. Just tends to feel more comfortable that way.
Thanks - thats really nice of you! I did discuss that with my wife too - she has no interest in going but also no opposition or judgement if I go. But right now I feel like I dont want to throw too many things at her... getting some new ideas from here can be dangerous. Need to give her some time before I create more insecurity...
 
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GalaGirl

Well-known member
But I do hate this part of the possibility of poly leading to fear of loss that leads to crappy interactions

Fear of loss -- I think that's something every couple has to deal with even if they are not poly. One could fall out of love or get run over by a bus or... YKWIM? People are dynamic, living creatures. What you want at 20 when you first get married may not be what you want when you turn 40, 60, 80.

I think like with other things, poly just brings it to the surface so it has to get talked about. It isn't that poly causes it or leads to it.

It's always there.

Galagirl
 

Tri46guy

New member
Fear of loss --
I think like with other things, poly just brings it to the surface so it has to get talked about. It isn't that poly causes it or leads to it. It's always there.
Galagirl
Yeah... but its pretty hard to believe that when you are feeling insecure...
I get it though. We've talked about it a lot. Half our friends have divorced without trying poly... though really probably half of the half of them had cheated. Sure I see the possibilities for lots of crap to still happen if mono - just drifting apart or feeling dead/bored, or feeling repressed and resentful, or still meeting someone new at starbucks... and I can see all the reasons why poly could actually help - feeling more fulfilled, more emotional support, more growth and feeling alive... etc. etc.

But sometimes the good communication skills fail when you feel insecure and that part that sucks. And while we are getting a lot better than we used to be, it still makes we wonder if either of us can really handle all the drama. But I guess life is long and you gotta fill the time somehow..
 

Perrey

New member
When emotions are running high, communication skills can be left behind. It happens. What matters is how you come back from it.

For me, I can empathize with your wife. For her to live in a poly world is one thing, its another when you realize your partner wants it too. New feelings and thoughts arise. Jealousy can happen. What's important is being supportive and understanding yet communicating your needs. They can seem very contradictory at the same time.

I had to ask myself, would I share my husband? And at first, I didn't think I could. It wasn't until I realized what scared me was not liking or knowing the other woman. When I came to the realization that I could be friends with her and like her, then I was okay. Then I could see how it would benefit us and I could be open to him being poly. That realization took time and plenty of talks with a lot of active listening and being open to hearing things that would be uncomfortable. On the other hand, I wanted him to be who he is and be true to his needs and wants.

I know I can't fulfill every need and want. But in our society that's the expectation. Its ingrained. Reality is far from the truth. If he meets a woman who fulfills in him something I can't then that's more than okay. I want that for him.

When emotions are high and conflict is occurring, it can seem easier to just smooth things over and see it as too much of... drama, work, tedium. But if you don't go through the conflict, you won't reach the working stage. You won't get to negotiate, compromise and build something new. Conflict is uncomfortable but it will pass. Its gonna take work but doesn't everything? Its up to you if its worth it.
 

Tri46guy

New member
For me, I can empathize with your wife. For her to live in a poly world is one thing, its another when you realize your partner wants it too. New feelings and thoughts arise. Jealousy can happen. What's important is being supportive and understanding yet communicating your needs. They can seem very contradictory at the same time.
Thanks Perry for the very thoughful reply. You've made me realize I was being a little grumpy feeling like it was a little uncool of her to have a hard time with it for me given that its been something she wants, but you are making me realize that the two are different and its not really about whats fair or not and I should get rid of any alue judgement about that... She cares for me and needs time to adjust and you are right I should and want to support her and give her time. Thanks for helping me see that a bit clearer!
 

Perrey

New member
Your welcome. From what you've posted, she wasn't aware of your needs. This is something that can be communicated going forward. Also, her feelings are hers. You can support her, you can provide information and communicate but ultimately, she works through them. That's all hers. It may take time and that's okay. Take as much time as you need. There's no race. There's no deadline.

One step at a time.
 

kdt26417

Official Greeter
Staff member
Hi Tri46guy,

I hope things are going better now between you and your wife. I was married awhile ago ... and during some of the later years of that marriage I acted out in ways that cause me deep sorrow when I think of them now. For now my wife has passed away and it is too late to go back and let her know I was in the wrong.

I don't know why any of us do that. And I don't want to excuse myself, I just want to be sorry and live the rest of my life as well as I can (which isn't great).

I wish I had more wisdom for you.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
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