Wife has ended poly

[Albert Ross]

I have been apologizing everytime my wife has felt insecure or upset. I have given her far more freedom than she has given me, all on the premise that I was hoping she would be happy. But she turns it around and says I only gave her that freedom so I can see my gf. Well, that is part of it, but I do legitimately want to see my wife happy

I'm sorry you're going through all this — it sounds very painful. I'd like to reflect something back to you, if I may.

In the above-quoted post (emphasis mine) and the one before, you mention some version of wanting to make your wife happy many, many times. I wonder if that's been a pattern throughout your relationship, and not just since you started practicing polyamory?

Of course you want your loved ones to be happy instead of not, but the reality is we can't make other people be happy — we can't be in charge of the emotions of other adults, (even ones we've been married to for decades! )

Your wife's happiness is up to her, not you.

So it's not surprising that all your attempts to "solve" her insecurity and upset feelings... aren't working. Instead, you're hiding the truth to try to avoid her getting upset, and she's snooping on your private communications with your girlfriend (YIKES! ) to discover the deceit and end up even more upset.

It's understandable to prioritize the 23-year-long-with-kids relationship over the year-long relationship, sure, but we can't escape that there's another person here whose happiness is affected; do you feel responsible for your girlfriend's happiness, too, or just your wife's?

(From your previous post, it's clear you DO care deeply about your GF and her family, I'm only asking that question to follow it with this one):

What about your happiness? Where is that in all this?

It's great that you're doing both individual and couples counselling — I hope it's helpful in understanding and healing how you relate to each other.

I hope you'll consider exploring the question, "Do I put my wife's emotional needs before my own? How do I stop doing that?" in counselling, because it may be a root cause of all of this mess.

 

[Magdlyn]

She has been seeing a personal therapist since February, and we started seeing a couples therapist, that is skilled in ENM, a couple months ago. I think we had 3 or 4 sessions, and I felt things were actually getting better. Our conflict resolution was more calm, and we were having less arguments, until she flat out didn't believe me about this one thing.

I have been apologizing every time my wife has felt insecure or upset. I have given her far more freedom than she has given me, all on the premise that I was hoping she would be happy. But she turns it around and says I only gave her that freedom so I can see my gf. Well, that is part of it, but I do legitimately want to see my wife happy, and she seemed happy when she was going out, just not when I was going out.

The thing is, swinging is different than polyamory. Much different. In swinging, you go to a party together, hook up however, go home together. In poly, as was said before, you're more independent, or should be, even if you're in a couple. You go out when you want. You don't have to agree to only go out if wife has a date. That has kept both of you too dependent on each other. And it hasn't helped her feel more loved or confident, if she's at a point where when you just wanted to call her to say hi, she immediately thinks something is up, gets all suspicious, argues with you all day.

This is something that can be worked on in therapy. I don't think you have to jump and agree to Wife's demand that you dump gf immediately. Instead, go to your counselor and talk this over with an impartial intermediary.

As GalaGirl said, in poly, there will be times when one or the other of you won't have a partner.

I had veto power over my ex h's relationship back in 2000 and I asked him to stop seeing her. He did, resented it, fell out of love with me and we broke up a painful 10 years later. Don't be like us. We had grown apart. He wanted to be mono with this gf at that point. He kept talking to her and seeing her as a friend (no sex) for those 10 years. I wasn't even dating in those 10 years, as we had thought we would share that gf, but she wasn't interested in me.

We did couples therapy for one year. He did individual therapy for one year, and his counselor told her he wasn't making progress and refused to keep seeing him. I did individual therapy for three years and made a lot of progress. I still wanted to "save the marriage," but we couldn't reconcile.

It can be just as hard to transition from swinging to poly as from monogamy to poly. Your wife may just be a swinger. You may be poly but may have outgrow the r'ship with Wife, since she's quitting poly and you'd be devastated to do so.

And most of the time I only went out when she had a date. I could stay home without her, but she freaked out about staying home without me.

She admits that she doesn't even know if she wants another relationship. She enjoys the swinging side of things. Making new connections and having fun. But she says she can't handle me having a loving relationship with someone else if she doesn't too.

 

[GalaGirl]

Gently... if you have been walking on eggshells for quite some time? Like damned if you do and damned if you don't?

Since you are gonna be "damned" anyway? How about you just don't? You pick the one that is LESS work for you so at least that much lightens up in your load. Maybe something to think about with the counselor?

She has been seeing a personal therapist since February, and we started seeing a couples therapist, that is skilled in ENM, a couple months ago. I think we had 3 or 4 sessions, and I felt things were actually getting better. Our conflict resolution was more calm, and we were having less arguments, until she flat out didn't believe me about this one thing.

This is progress then.

And fine. She doesn't believe you on that one thing. That doesn't mean you skip your ice cream date.

Next time that happens? If Wife doesn't believe you that you called wife because you wanted connection with wife? And you have plans later to get ice cream with GF since Wife is going out on a date anyway? Get on with your own life. Get the ice cream. Let wife go ahead and feel whatever upset/mad her own unrealistic expectations are creating. Say "No" if she blows up inappropriately at you.

Talk to couple counselor about this -- being kind but FIRM to wife when she's all disregulated. Her getting upset is not excuse to walk all over you.

Also... Put passcodes on your devices that your wife doesn't know.

I have been apologizing everytime my wife has felt insecure or upset.

Why though? If you actually did poor behavior to wife? Yes, apologize for doing it and cut it out.

But apologizing to her just because she feels yucky? You didn't make those feelings. You cannot wave a magic wand and "make" her feel happy.

You could say things like "I see that it is hard right now." You could NOT say "I'm sorry" like you are responsible for her feelings.

Is it hard for you to see wife experiencing difficult emotions? Talk to counselor about this.

It's not like you don't care about her at all. It's just that you cannot do her stuff FOR her -- it is part of detangling. If there is enmeshment or codependent things going on here talk to counselor about it.

Even if you two never try polyamory again? If the counseling goal is a healthier marriage? This kind of of stuff needs to be addressed. You can't continue in some "walking on eggshells" marriage and be in good health yourself. Always on the lookout for some blow up.

I have given her far more freedom than she has given me, all on the premise that I was hoping she would be happy. But she turns it around and says I only gave her that freedom so I can see my gf. Well, that is part of it, but I do legitimately want to see my wife happy, and she seemed happy when she was going out, just not when I was going out. And most of the time I only went out when she had a date. I could stay home without her, but she freaked out about staying home without me.

Do you subsume yourself to the relationship? Do self neglect because you are so busy worrying about putting her and her happiness first? What do YOU need to be happy participating in this marriage? Not just being free of her blow ups. That's just getting to "neutral" or even "basic polite."

What do you need to feel actual JOY in your marriage? Like not just surviving the relationship but thriving in it?

Are you able to articulate that to yourself and to counselor?

She admits that she doesn't even know if she wants another relationship. She enjoys the swinging side of things. Making new connections and having fun. But she says she can't handle me having a loving relationship with someone else if she doesn't too.

So what's she doing? Just chasing polyamory because you were developing a long term GF? She was scared of being "left behind" or "replaced" or even competitive feelings with you so even if she doesn't really want it she has to have "the same or better" than you?

That's something to unpack in counseling.

Galagirl

 

[MK78]

So last night my wife and I had some very good talks. I explained to her that through out all this I've been stashing my feelings away and just focusing on her needs. I think in doing so, when ever we would have an argument, my feelings would bubble up and explode, and that wasn't good.

She says that although I had good intentions, because I wasn't showing any sort of feelings towards situations, she took that as me not caring. I was trying to be strong for her, and she wanted to see that I still cared for her.

So I believe we made some progress, she still isn't comfortable with me even talking to my girlfriend right now, but we will be discussing that by the weekend.

My gf is very understanding, hurt and sad, but she's supportive of me. So I've been told by her husband, who I AM still "allowed" to talk to

 

[GalaGirl]

Glad you talked. So some progress then. Remember not to talk this 24/7. Y'all need times for REST too.

I hope you are able to get a therapist appointment soon.

These you might want to unpack with counselor.

I explained to her that through out all this I've been stashing my feelings away and just focusing on her needs.

I see you've been stashing your feelings. But focussing on her needs WHY?

To avoid a blow up? And meet your own need for "peace" in some kind of backwards way? Like if you fix her things she won't blow up and then you don't have to be anxious?

I was trying to be strong for her, and she wanted to see that I still cared for her.

Strong for her? Or strong for you to avoid the blow ups?

And care for her HOW?

I encourage you to talk all that out with counselor.

 

[WestCoastRedhead]

So last night my wife and I had some very good talks. I explained to her that through out all this I've been stashing my feelings away and just focusing on her needs. I think in doing so, when ever we would have an argument, my feelings would bubble up and explode, and that wasn't good.

She says that although I had good intentions, because I wasn't showing any sort of feelings towards situations, she took that as me not caring. I was trying to be strong for her, and she wanted to see that I still cared for her.

So I believe we made some progress, she still isn't comfortable with me even talking to my girlfriend right now, but we will be discussing that by the weekend.

My gf is very understanding, hurt and sad, but she's supportive of me. So I've been told by her husband, who I AM still "allowed" to talk to

I'm glad you and your wife are communicating better. So important.

I am curious about something - why are you accepting the "not *allowed* to speak to the GF" rule dictated by your wife? You are an adult and your GF is too - since when do we let another adult "allow" who we can speak to? I get that maybe you agreed to keep the peace, but how long is that to continue? I think if it was me, I'd say to my spouse - "I understand that you are struggling, and I want to keep working together with you in this. But I am going start speaking to my GF again - this silence I've agreed to can't continue. It's not fair to her, and she shouldn't be punished for what's going on between us. I understand if you will be unhappy with this, but this is something I need to do for me. What *I* need matters too, and what my GF needs also matters."

I know that I wouldn't allow a spouse/partner to tell me who I can and can't speak with. Just something to consider...?

 

[ref2018]

since when do we let another adult "allow" who we can speak to?

I know that I wouldn't allow a spouse/partner to tell me who I can and can't speak with. Just something to consider...?

Many married people still have or had "obey" in their wedding vows, leaving the door open for that to be invoked in any situation.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Many married people still have or had "obey" in their wedding vows, leaving the door open for that to be invoked in any situation.

Besides that, he probably doesn't want to lose his marriage for the sake of this other relationship. He probably really likes his wife.

 

[MK78]

I'm glad you and your wife are communicating better. So important.

I am curious about something - why are you accepting the "not *allowed* to speak to the GF" rule dictated by your wife? You are an adult and your GF is too - since when do we let another adult "allow" who we can speak to? I get that maybe you agreed to keep the peace, but how long is that to continue? I think if it was me, I'd say to my spouse - "I understand that you are struggling, and I want to keep working together with you in this. But I am going start speaking to my GF again - this silence I've agreed to can't continue. It's not fair to her, and she shouldn't be punished for what's going on between us. I understand if you will be unhappy with this, but this is something I need to do for me. What *I* need matters too, and what my GF needs also matters."

I know that I wouldn't allow a spouse/partner to tell me who I can and can't speak with. Just something to consider...?

You are correct, I am trying to keep the peace. It's what I have been doing the entire time. I did say I will talk about it with my wife by the weekend. For right now I'm letting her emotions settle and just not ruffling feathers. Unfortunately it's what I tend to do, and it is a habit I need to break from.

I have had more than one friend tell me to call her bluff. If she says she'll leave me if I talk to or see my gf again, let her go. They don't think she will leave, but they're also not convinced I wouldn't be better off if she did leave. I'm not at that point yet though...

 

[Magdlyn]

You are correct, I am trying to keep the peace. It's what I have been doing the entire time. I did say I will talk about it with my wife by the weekend. For right now I'm letting her emotions settle and just not ruffling feathers. Unfortunately it's what I tend to do, and it is a habit I need to break from.

I have had more than one friend tell me to call her bluff. If she says she'll leave me if I talk to or see my gf again, let her go. They don't think she will leave, but they're also not convinced I wouldn't be better off if she did leave. I'm not at that point yet though...

Sometimes "leaving" is a good thing. My ex h did that once. He packed a bag and went to a hotel for a day or two. It can be kind of like two boxers going to their corners for a breather. Since it seems like you and wife are too tangled up, having a couple days of peace could actually help give a different perspective on the whole thing.

Of course, I understand you don't want her to leave forever, but sometimes a separation of a couple days, weeks, months, whatever, is the healthiest step to take. It's not failure (to keep the peace) on your part, it's more an acknowledgment that you and she are independent beings who have chosen each other as life partners, and that you're equal. Your feelings matter just as much as hers. If you learned as a child (who maybe had a parent or two who tended to have blowups) to make yourself smaller in order to avoid being yelled at (or worse), you can begin to unlearn this outgrown and ineffective coping skill now.

She may see this as you choosing gf over her. She's allowed to think that, even if it is incorrect. You can't force her to see things your way, and she can't force you to see things her way. Negotiations need to be made. Growth has to happen.

 

[GalaGirl]

You are correct, I am trying to keep the peace. It's what I have been doing the entire time.

"Avoid conflict to keep the peace/prevent blowups" is not "creating actual peace and getting along well."

It's just not talking about things that need to be talked out. You seem to see that.

I did say I will talk about it with my wife by the weekend. For right now I'm letting her emotions settle and just not ruffling feathers. Unfortunately it's what I tend to do, and it is a habit I need to break from.

Taking a time out is reasonable. Not everything is solved in one conversation.

Some things need more time to solve. Days, weeks, months. Talking to a counselor. The intent is to pick it up again when cooler headed.

Not just gloss it over and never talk about it again to "keep the peace."

Sweeping junk under the rug like that? Eventually there's this GIANT lump there anyone can see and has to struggle not to trip over.

I have had more than one friend tell me to call her bluff. If she says she'll leave me if I talk to or see my gf again, let her go. They don't think she will leave, but they're also not convinced I wouldn't be better off if she did leave. I'm not at that point yet though...

Your wife is going to leave the marriage if you talk to your GF that wife no longer wants you to have because WIFE broke up with her BF?

I'm with the friends. This is hooey if she's bluffing breaking up/leaving you just to get her way.

I'm also with you. It's fine if you aren't ready to stand your ground and call wife on her bluff yet. You need to take your own time on that. Cuz it's you doing it. Not your friends, or me, or anyone else. It is YOU.

Wife? She's doing some weird thinking and kinda sounds like at times cranking her own self up.

But living like this -- where everything little thing is "Do it my way or I dump you" -- that's stressful. So's dealing with blow ups.

And after a point? You might stop caring. Like "OMG, this again. Here, let me just solve it for you. I am dumping YOU and there. We don't have to do this any more."

I don't get the vibe you want to break up with either wife or the GF.

You just want the frustrating bits to STOP. Is that true?

Does your wife has some kind of medical condition that make it hard for her to regulate her emotions? Or struggles coping with changes?

Galagirl

 

[WestCoastRedhead]

Many married people still have or had "obey" in their wedding vows, leaving the door open for that to be invoked in any situation.

Is this the 14th century?

I'm with Galagirl, in the idea of "My way or the highway" dictating all of this, including “allowed” communication? Nope, not healthy, not cooperative - pure hooey indeed.

 

[ref2018]

Is this the 14th century?

I'm with Galagirl, in the idea of "My way or the highway" dictating all of this, including “allowed” communication? Nope, not healthy, not cooperative - pure hooey indeed.

No, this is the 21st century. I'm not sure when wedding vows started including "obey" as part of their verbiage. Perhaps it was in the 14th century.

I didn't say I agreed with it. I'm simply stating a fact. Are you saying you have never heard of wedding vows including the promise to obey each other?

I mean wedding vows that include the word "obey" usually contain other verbiage about forsaking the intimate company of others (or words to that effect), so anyone who invokes one and disregards the other is cherry-picking and therefore a hypocrite, but all I did was answer your question about where the idea of "allowing" one's spouse to do something came from:

WestCoastRedhead said:
since when do we let another adult "allow" who we can speak to?

I know that I wouldn't allow a spouse/partner to tell me who I can and can't speak with. Just something to consider...?

I'm sorry if you were offended by the answer I gave.

 

[WestCoastRedhead]

No, this is the 21st century. I'm not sure when wedding vows started including "obey" as part of their verbiage. Perhaps it was in the 14th century.

I didn't say I agreed with it. I'm simply stating a fact. Are you saying you have never heard of wedding vows including the promise to obey each other?

I mean wedding vows that include the word "obey" usually contain other verbiage about forsaking the intimate company of others (or words to that effect), so anyone who invokes one and disregards the other is cherry-picking and therefore a hypocrite, but all I did was answer your question about where the idea of "allowing" one's spouse to do something came from:


I'm sorry if you were offended by the answer I gave.

Yes, I'm familiar with the idea of "obey" in some marriage vows. I would be surprised if many married poly couples actually used or agreed that it's a concept they had to follow...? I mean, if we are going by that notion, our OP of this thread has just as much right to make his wife "obey" as she does him. Doesn't sound like obedience is part of their marriage agreement though, from what I'm seeing. Sounds like his wife is acting out of fear (fear of loss, abandonment, etc), which is totally understandable. But unless their marriage has obedience as part of the overall "this is how we do things", she does not have the right to dictate who he speaks to, GF or otherwise. Only the GF can ask him not to communicate with her.

Not offended, just surprised and confused. It's a pretty outdated notion for most North American/European (and other) societies and couples. Women are not property, nor do we have to obey. Not in our society, anyway.

 

[MK78]

I don't get the vibe you want to break up with either wife or the GF.

You just want the frustrating bits to STOP. Is that true?

Yes! I don't want to end it with either of them. I just want it to not be such an issue. Every time I have a date with my gf, my wife is upset. Doesn't matter if she has a date too, doesn't matter of her date is longer or better, she feels upset because I'm with my gf.

Does your wife has some kind of medical condition that make it hard for her to regulate her emotions? Or struggles coping with changes?

She has been seeing a therapist, and they have unpacked a few things.

2 separate people, who know my wife well, have sent me links and articles about borderline personality disorder. My wife does check all the boxes for symptoms and I check all the boxes for what it's like to live with someone that has BPD. But how does someone actually mention that?

 

[Magdlyn]

Yes! I don't want to end it with either of them. I just want it to not be such an issue. Every time I have a date with my gf, my wife is upset. Doesn't matter if she has a date too, doesn't matter of her date is longer or better, she feels upset because I'm with my gf.

Again, that is swinger mentality, not healthy polyamory behavior. You are not a coupleblob. You have a gf, she has the potential to date others too. In reality, she is just feeling insecure, jealous, envious. Those are her things, not yours. I used to try to placate my ex h and no matter what I did, the issues were his and nothing I did was ever enough. This led to me leaving him after years of doing the same reassurances and always getting the same result. And our therapist agreed I was "doing all the right things," and it made no difference to his security.

She has been seeing a therapist, and they have unpacked a few things.

2 separate people, who know my wife well, have sent me links and articles about borderline personality disorder. My wife does check all the boxes for symptoms and I check all the boxes for what it's like to live with someone that has BPD. But how does someone actually mention that?

You don't diagnose your wife, or tell her so and so said you might have symptoms of borderline. That is for her therapist to diagnose and treat. Leave that in her bucket.

Learn to differentiate what are your jobs and what are her jobs. You can't do her jobs for her. We can't manage other people's emotions. We can try, but it just doesn't work. Eventually we learn not to bother. And this can lead to good results!

 

[Magdlyn]

Yes, I'm familiar with the idea of "obey" in some marriage vows. I would be surprised if many married poly couples actually used or agreed that it's a concept they had to follow...? I mean, if we are going by that notion, our OP of this thread has just as much right to make his wife "obey" as she does him. Doesn't sound like obedience is part of their marriage agreement though, from what I'm seeing. Sounds like his wife is acting out of fear (fear of loss, abandonment, etc), which is totally understandable. But unless their marriage has obedience as part of the overall "this is how we do things", she does not have the right to dictate who he speaks to, GF or otherwise. Only the GF can ask him not to communicate with her.

Not offended, just surprised and confused. It's a pretty outdated notion for most North American/European (and other) societies and couples. Women are not property, nor do we have to obey. Not in our society, anyway.

This conversation is kind of "meta," and a bit irrelevant. Besides, the "obey" thing was always for the woman (the property) to obey her husband (her owner). No man ever swore to obey his wife (unless there is some kind of D/s kink going on in these modern times).

 

[ref2018]

This conversation is kind of "meta," and a bit irrelevant. Besides, the "obey" thing was always for the woman (the property) to obey her husband (her owner). No man ever swore to obey his wife (unless there is some kind of D/s kink going on in these modern times).

Well they do in the Catholic ceremonies I've attended. The priests always read the list of vows separately for each partner and it always included "obey" in both of them. I haven't attended one of these since I was in my 20s, but I'm hard pressed to believe that NO ONE does this anymore. There are plenty of religious people who still do this.

 

[GalaGirl]

Yes! I don't want to end it with either of them. I just want it to not be such an issue. Every time I have a date with my gf, my wife is upset. Doesn't matter if she has a date too, doesn't matter of her date is longer or better, she feels upset because I'm with my gf.

When she is feeling upset, what behaviors does she do? I see it frustrates you, but can you articulate what she actually DOES? Would it be terrible to just let her be upset and do nothing about it; let her sit and stew on her own til she calms back down, even if it takes a long time; learn to separate yourself from it; learn to maintain strong personal boundaries?

You could say things like:

"No. I see that you are upset. I can get your phone if you want to talk to your therapist to help you cool off. But nope, I do not accept you just yelling at me from the sky."

"No. I don't like yelling. I'm leaving the room. We can talk later when you have cooled off and can talk to me without yelling."

Or similar.

2 separate people, who know my wife well, have sent me links and articles about borderline personality disorder. My wife does check all the boxes for symptoms and I check all the boxes for what it's like to live with someone that has BPD. But how does someone actually mention that?

That gets tricky. If you are ready for "come hell or high water" you just tell spouse your concerns. And expect a blow up, tears, whatever.

It could be BPD, ADHD, something else, or even a combo of things. Anosognosia may or may not be in the mix -- the inability to understand that one has a condition. If that is in play, telling the spouse is not gonna help any. They won't be able to see it.

You can't actually dx her. She can't dx herself either. Her doctor does that dx job.

What you CAN do is read about conditions and educate yourself. If she WAS dx'ed with BPD, is some of this big struggle happening because you are her "BPD favorite person?" Could it be something else?

If you don't know what's going on it can feel like punching fog.

You might read things at:

Out of the FOG | Personality Disorders, Narcissism, NPD, BPD

Helping family members & loved-ones of people who suffer from personality disorders.

outofthefog.website

It contains what to do/what not to do for several traits.

Whatever condition it might be doesn't have to be "officially dx'ed" for you to start learning about those traits you have been experiencing over there. Each article contains what to do/what not to do and shows how to change how you cope when she has/does whatever it may be. See what works/does not work. Learn to maintain strong personal boundaries.

You can consider individual counseling for YOU so you have support as you navigate your wife getting a dx or not and how living with her affects YOU.

Perhaps you also want to send her doctor a note with your BPD concerns. The doctor cannot tell you what is in her patient file; there is patient confidentiality. But you, as the spouse, can tell the doctor what is worrying YOU and what living in the home with her is like, and they will determine what to do with that info.

It would be easiest if the patient (your wife) gave permission for the doc/doc office to share her file with you because you are married/next of kin. But if she doesn't give permission, view it like a one-way street, rather than a two-way street. You can tell the doctor your concerns. They will decide what to do with that data. They cannot tell you about her file.

Once you have a dx, you can look into joining [name of condition] patient and caregiver boards to help you better learn how to deal with this.

If things get rough, remember you CAN have a trial separation. Not all patients are nice.

But, one thing at a time...

GalaGirl

 

[MK78]

You don't diagnose your wife, or tell her so and so said you might have symptoms of borderline. That is for her therapist to diagnose and treat. Leave that in her bucket.

Oh don't worry!! I'M not telling her that!! Lol