Lost and Frustrated

N

naturebug32

New member
Okay, so... I need some guidance here. I'm not really new to poly, but the situation I'm in right now is new. Sorry for this being so long.

I met and starting seeing Jay 6 months ago. At the time, he was living with one girlfriend (Bea) who he referred to as the nanny (Jay has a son) and was seeing two other women (Cee & Lee) that didn't live with him. (He also has an estranged wife Nora, who lives there, though she won't be staying there much longer. She has mental issues that arose a bit before he broke out into the poly scene years ago.)

I had told him in the beginning that I wasn't sure I could do the poly thing again, since I had been burned in the past. But we clicked very well and fell in love rather quickly. He told me right away that he planned on breaking up with Lee (which he did) since it wasn't working for him.

Well, as things went on, I realized that Cee wasn't very good for him. He was constantly unhappy with her; he rarely saw her; and when he did he'd come back grumpy. She became toxic. She took constantly from him and never gave. She was always asking for favors and having him run everywhere, to the point that he was exhausted. Then she'd just sit there and complain about everything. I told him how I saw it and he agreed.

She lost her apartment and had to move in with relatives almost an hour away. I thought he would break up with her but, he didn't. I also thought that he was just letting her hang out on the side while barely seeing her, but talking to her every day. I found out recently this isn't the case. He's been seeing her all along. He had been seeing her without telling me because he knew I didn't like her.

I started staying there with Jay pretty much full time (though I have my own apartment). In the beginning, Bea would sleep in the same room with Jay and me. We tried to do threesome things with her, but it didn't work out. I just didn't have feelings for her. Also, Bea has serious anger issues, and problems from her past haunt her. It causes her to snap some days and yell and start fights with people (mostly me).

Jay and Bea haven't been getting along either. Bea doesn't like his estranged wife and constantly badgers him about getting her out of the house. She has issues, because she'll go a few days being really nice and jovial, to throwing accusations (mostly at me) that have no root. What she yells about isn't true and usually just comes out of the blue. She's threatened to leave many times, even to the point of packing all her stuff. They aren't intimate (hardly ever, anyway). He pulls away when she touches him. He doesn't spend much time with her. She's unhappy. She says he only spends time with me, but when he asks her to go places, or to come along with us, she refuses.

He kept telling me that I was The One and that no one had ever made him as happy as I did. He started talking about marriage, and though I had been married before and sworn never to marry again, I felt strongly that I could marry him. The way he kept encouraging me to stay with him, and as much as he didn't get along with Bea, and didn't see Cee (or so I thought), I guess I fooled myself into believing that eventually it would be just him and me.

(Side note: Jay displays all the signs of high-functioning autism. His dad and mom were diagnosed, as was Jay's 7-year old.)

Things came to a head recently, though. Jay's wife (Nora) had been in the psych ward for a stint. When she was coming back home, Bea flew into a rage about why Nora shouldn't be there again. Later, when we were waiting for Jay to come home with Nora, Bea flew into a rage and said that if Nora tried to take Jay's son away, she would kill her. Then she went into graphic detail about how she would do that. I freaked out. I told Jay I didn't want Bea sleeping in the same room with me anymore, and why.

She didn't, for a while, so I thought he had talked to her. Two nights ago, Jay and I were in bed, and I was venting to him privately, when Bea came in and calmly started laying her blankets out on the bed. I looked at Jay with panic and he just kept whispering, "It's okay, it's okay." I turned over feeling freaked out and angry until I couldn't take it anymore. So I left the room.

A bit later he came and talked to me. I asked him if she intended on sleeping there. He said, "Yes, it appears so," and asked me what he should do. I told him, "Do I really need to explain to you again why I don't want her in there?" He got pissed and said he'd take care of it. I tried to explain my position and he glared at me and shouted, "I said I'd take care of it." I started crying and went into the bathroom. A few minutes later, I heard Bea walk by. I went into the bedroom then. Jay and I had some words about the whole thing, and went to sleep.

He was finally forced to talk to Bea about why I didn't want her in there. So now she doesn't sleep in there anymore. But now he's feeling stuck. He doesn't want to not be with me just to sleep with her. We talked last night. He kept saying the only thing he knows is that he wants to marry me. He also said that if I wanted him to break up with Bea and Cee, then he would, but he seemed sad about it.

My thing is, if he truly loved and cared about either of them (Bea or Cee), I'd be more apt to be okay with them being around. But he doesn't. I've asked him straight out, and he either doesn't reply, or says that they're familiar and comfortable, or he changes the subject and says he loves me. I don't think it should be my decision whether he breaks up with them or not, but he keeps putting me in that position. I told him this morning that he needed to figure out what he feels and where he stands with them, then I can decide what I'm doing.

At this point, I don't know what to do anymore. He's all sad today. Maybe he's afraid if he says he will keep seeing them then I'll leave. I don't know what I should do. He said last night that what he was looking for before he met me was someone to make all the pieces fit and make them all make sense, since everything was like this before I came along. I did enter the picture. but I see, I didn't make the pieces fit. I guess i just complicated things. Though I feel if things were that messed up, then he shouldn't have been looking for someone to fix it for him. He should be the one to fix things. And now we're both stuck and don't know what to do.

Any help or guidance would be most welcome.
 
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naturebug32 said:
Ok so I need some guidance here. I'm not really new to poly, but the situation I'm in right now is new. Sorry for this being so long...

I met and starting seeing J 6 months ago. At the time he was living with one girlfriend (B) who he referred to as the nanny (J has a son) and was seeing two other women (C & L) that didn't live with him. (He also has an estranged wife who lives there, though she won't be staying there much longer. She has mental issues that arose a bit before he broke out into the poly scene years ago.)

I had told him in the beginning that I wasn't sure I could do the poly thing again since I had been burned in the past. But we clicked so well and fell in love rather quickly. He told me right away that he planned on breaking up with L (which he did) since it wasn't working for him.

Well as things went I realized that C wasn't very good for him... he was constantly unhappy with her, he hardly saw her, and when he did he'd come back grumpy. She became toxic and took constantly from him and never gave, she was always asking for favors and having him run everywhere to the point that he was exhausted. Then she'd just sit there and complain about everything. I told him how I saw it and he agreed. She lost her apartment and had to move in with relatives almost an hour away. I thought he would break up with her but he didn't. I also thought that he was just letting her hang out on the side while barely seeing her, but talked to her everyday. (I found out recently this isn't the case, he's been seeing her all along. He had been seeing her without telling me because he knew I didn't like her.
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Hey there. I am going to just respond to this before I read the rest of the post, as I see a couple (strike that), a ton of things that bother me.

1. Did you know he was going to break up with Lee before Lee did? Either way, if somebody I started dating told me they planned on breaking up with a partner before they had broken up with that partner, I would run as fast as possible. I'd like to think that my boyfriend might tell his wife or his long-term girlfriend he was going to break up with me if he was thinking along those lines, but if he told somebody he'd just met, well, that feels wrong to me on so many levels.

2. I don't think you should meddle in other relationships unless you are asked for advice. If his time with YOU is being affected because he is complaining, ask him to not talk about Cee while you are together.

3. If you are not spending time with Cee and Jay, anything you hear from him is just one side. You seem to be jumping to be his champion and save him from this toxic relationship. But he doesn't want to be saved, obviously.

4. If he is lying about seeing somebody because you don't like them (and as far as I can tell, you don't like them because Jay has made them seem nothing BUT unlikeable by bitching about her all the time) well, honestly, that is a deal breaker. Maybe you can negotiate honesty and move forward, but I think you are setting yourself up to be burned again, and I would do serious thinking about if the NRE stage of love you're in with Jay is really worth all the negativity you are experiencing already.
 
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Anneintherain said:
Hey there, I am going to just respond to this before I read the rest of the post, as I see a couple, strike that, ton of things that bother me.

1. Did you know he was going to break up with L before L did? Either way, if somebody I started dating told me they planned on breaking up with a partner before they had broken up with that partner, I would run as fast as possible. I'd like to think that my boyfriend might tell his wife or his long term girlfriend he was going to break up with me if he was thinking along those lines, but if he told somebody he'd just met, well that feels wrong to me on so many levels.

2. I don't think you should meddle in other relationships unless you are asked for advice. If his time with YOU is being affected because he is complaining, ask him to not talk about C while you are together.

3. If you are not spending time with C and J, anything you hear from him is just one side. You seem to be jumping to be his champion and save him from this toxic relationship, but he doesn't want to be saved obviously.

4. If he is lying about seeing somebody because you don't like them (and as far as I can tell you don't like them because J has made them seem nothing BUT unlikeable by bitching about her all the time) well honestly is a deal breaker. Maybe you can negotiate honesty and move forward, but I think you are setting yourself up to be burned again, and I would do serious thinking about if the NRE stage of love you're in with J is really worth all the negativity you are experiencing already.
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The only reason I was saying anything about Cee is that it was wearing on him mentally, physically, emotionally. This, of course, trickled back into my relationship with him, because he was always angry because of her. And he did ask for my advice on the matter many many times. I told him my opinion because he asked, but never told him what he should do. Maybe I should have run then, but I didn't. In the beginning, I did spend time with both of them, and trust me, she did nothing but complain and whine about everything. She never spoke one word of gratitude for all he was doing for her, at least not in my presence.

Well, Jay understands now that I'd rather know when he's meeting up with Cee, rather than him going around without me knowing. He's been very open with me since then about seeing her, and telling me when he plans to see her. I agree it does seem that I'm saving him from a relationship he doesn't want to be saved from. I'm not entirely sure why he insists on seeing her at all, because he's made it clear he doesn't want to be with any more than he is. He only sees her for like 10-20 minutes a few times a week. He's made it clear he could never have her live with him. He said he couldn't take being around her so much. So if you have any ideas why he insists on seeing her, please enlighten me. This is one of my frustrations.

As far as Lee goes, he had already been talking to her about it not working before I came along. He was just informing me that while technically they were still together, it was dissolving. They broke up mutually and are still friends.

Honestly, I'm much much more concerned about Bea, what to do with the whole living situation, and my future with Jay, if there is to be one.
 
Six months, and you're The One he wants to spend the rest of his life with? Wow, he gets "comfortable" with women pretty fast. I don't really see why anyone would stay in this kind of immature drama of a situation. What does your common sense tell you? Do you think he probably sells the same bullshit to his other girlfriends?

I have a strong hunch that this is just infatuation you two feel for each other, and that even if he gets rid of all the other women in his life, eventually down the road, he'll have more relationships, and you'll be the one he's apathetic about and tolerating just because you're there. He seems to get off on having a harem. Seriously, do you need this much melodrama in your life? How happy do you think you could be with him, I mean, totally happy, joyful, and satisfied with life? There are better guys and better poly situations out there.
 
Jay should get all the negative people out of his life. If he doesn't, there is no point in you continuing this relationship with him, because it just won't work. If Jay isn't strong enough to get rid of these drama people, then you are better off without him, infatuation or not.
 
Wow, Jay has loads of women around him, and all of them "be crazy," except for you. Hmm... that sounds suspicious. How do you know that you won't be just another one of his "crazy" girls that he needs to kick out of his bed when the new girl comes along?
 
nycindie - yeah I suppose he does move fast, but then, so do I. There is a lot of drama going on and it's frustrating, especially when Bea starts in with her random bitching and power trips. This is not just an infatuation though. We've gotten past the NRE, so I feel strongly that what I feel for him now is not infatuation. When the others are not around, we both relax, and that's when I see the real him and whom I've fallen in love with.

I'm not sure about his getting off on having a harem. It's more like he's afraid of the change for several reasons. I'm still trying to uncover all the reasons, but he's definitely terrified of anything changing at the moment. I really don't want the melodrama and there are a lot of questions unanswered, which leaves me feeling off-centered and anxious.

bulrush - I agree, he surrounds himself with people that are no good for him. I'm not sure I can make him see why he needs to get rid of them. He concedes that they are not good for him, but then brings up the reasons why he needs them around.

We talked last night and he kind of confused things further by basically saying he wants to marry me, no matter what that takes (which, in my mind, would be him getting rid of the others). But then, on the other hand, he makes it clear that Bea is not going anywhere and that she knows that she will remain in his life for the duration. Now I don't know if that means as just friends, or what he means by that. But he constantly does this back and forth bit, saying things that seemingly contradict each other.

MichelleZed - the same thought had occurred to me, that I might wind up as crazy as they all seem to be, and whether I'll be kicked to the curb if someone else were to come along. I've actually brought the second part up to him, but he insists that there won't be anyone else. He said last night that if I left him, he would probably leave everyone and become a monk. I know that sound silly and far-fetched, but he had seriously considered becoming one years ago, but life situations caused him to put it on the back burner.

I asked him if he was just willing to break up with everyone after I left, why couldn't he do it now? He just sighed and changed the subject. So I don't know what to think anymore.
 
I agree, red flags abounding here.

He does not seem to be a very emotionally and mentally healthy person, and he surrounds himself with people that seem to not be emotionally and mentally healthy. This is not an accident.

I think the bigger question you need to ask yourself and look at is, why are you choosing to be with somebody with so many giant issues? You've been together six months and already there's been drama, and lots of work, and wavering back and forth by him on what he wants and what he says. A healthy relationship shouldn't be hitting this many issues/roadblocks quite this soon. Or really, ever.

Why do you think he's going to change how he is, how he acts and who he's with all of a sudden now just because you're in his life? It is looking a bit like, "I love him and want to be with him, BUT I want him to change huge parts of his life because I don't like that." People can tend to get into that, because they're feeling all the good and giddy feelings that come with new love. It is still new. Sometimes the hormones and brain chemicals that are released in the beginnings of new relationships don't subside for up to a year and a half.

I think this early into the relationship you need to really take a look at him and his world and ask yourself HONESTLY if that's the energy you want in your life. Then you need to take him as he is, or leave. Anything else is an exercise in futility.
 
Break up with this guy. I think the women he's with appear to be "crazy" and "no good for him," but the one thing they all have in common is him. I'm beginning to suspect that it's really Jay who is crazy and no good.

I mean, really. He's been involved with Bea for a substantial period of time. She sleeps in his bed and takes care of his son. But he's willing to just kick her out of bed because you don't like her? Who does that?

Meanwhile, Bea is portrayed as "crazy" because, way back when, she pulled the same stuff you're pulling now. She doesn't like Nora, the ex-wife, and wants her out of the house. Nora presumably previously slept in his bed and took care of his son for him. But Bea (the new girl at the time) didn't like her, so she had to go, too.

See the pattern?

You're next, Naturebug. You're next. Get out before this insane man pits you against the next new girl for his own entertainment.
 
Not to in any way diminish what anyone else has said, because I think you're all 100% right, but to me, one of the biggest red flags is that it sounds like from NB's most recent post, Jay is completely incapable of verbalizing his rationales and motivations without contradicting himself, and when he gets called on it, he disengages entirely. Maybe he's a pathological liar, or maybe he himself is truly incapable of aligning and facing his thoughts. Either way, the problem is something deep, and beyond what anyone who loves him can fix, unless he's willing to recognize the core issue in himself that's causing him to act this way, and seek counseling/treatment.

Also, the thing about NRE is that you generally don't know that you're in it, anymore than you know why you feel depressed or bitchy before your period, unless you've experienced it enough times to clearly know your own patterns. It usually takes someone from the outside to help you see the signs. So, don't assume that you're looking at this guy with a clear head, even though a whole six months have passed.

I'm not saying your love isn't real. But you can love someone and know they're not right for you to be in a partnership with right now.
 
MichelleZed, I appreciate your point of view and it is definitely worth thinking about. However, Jay's estranged wife Nora took herself out of the picture long before even Bea was in the picture, by going into some sort of depression after giving birth to their son. She refused to take care of the baby or herself, leaving Jay to take care of them, both before and after work, and to come home from work during lunch break to take care of them. Even Jay's mom will attest to this.

Jay carried on in this manner for almost 2 years before he met Bea. She moved in and started taking care of Jay's son after her dad kicked her out. Jay admits even now that Bea isn't the one for him and that's why he's dated other women. He's afraid if he breaks up with Bea now then no one will be there to care for his son. (He and I work and there's no money for daycare.)

Nora still refuses to come out of her room and still won't care for their son. She's been this way for over 7 years. She's trying to get better and is working with her doctors to get her out on her own.

Bea has serious emotional issues stemming from her past. Please read my original message for an example of what she does that shows the imbalance. People don't generally sit around saying exactly how they are going to kill someone, while shaking with anger. Also she is nice as pie one minute, and then snapping at people the next, putting Jay's son in time out for things he didn't do or say, etc. Maybe part of it is from dealing with Jay's bs and all the girls he has dated since she moved in. I don't know. But she definitely isn't stable.

Jay kicked her out of bed with us, directly because I asked him to after she did that whole killing description scene. Had you seen her describe it in detail, with her mannerisms and anger, you'd at least be a bit shaken, if not downright terrified.

Right now, we're trying to find a compromise for the whole sleeping situation, but I definitely do not want her in the same room with me while I'm sleeping.
 
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Annabel, you're right. Jay does contradict himself a lot. He doesn't always disengage, but when I've called him out on other inconsistencies he concedes that he sees the contradiction and tries to explain. But he does disengage a lot too. I'd say it's about 50/50.

I don't believe him to be a liar, really. He tries to tell me everything. Although he hid from me that he was still seeing Cee, it could also be seen that I had something to do with that, by the way I complained when she did stupid stuff. After a while, he started hiding it to keep me from bitching. Was it right? No. But that's what happened.

I think part of his inability to communicate accurately and deal with confrontation at all has to do with the autism. I've seen others with high-functioning autism act the same way. I'm not excusing his refusal to try at times. I'm really just explaining how I'm thinking on these things.

One of the most recent contradictions he made was when he said that Bea knows she'll be around for the rest of his life. To me, this means that she's not going anywhere. I'm not sure if that means that she'll be his gf forever, or if it just means that she'll be involved in his life in some way. But in the next sentence he says he wants to marry me, no matter what it takes. Two completely different paths, right? I don't know. I almost want to ask him if he wants to marry me, would he consider a monogamous relationship with me if we do get married? Is that wrong of me to ask?

With the NRE, I have been through it quite a bit, especially recent years. I've started realizing when the warm fuzzies are fading. Though it's possible some of the stragglers are skewing my view of things...
 
Is there anyone in this 7 year old's life who is a functioning mature adult? The whole situation sounds like a gong show. Adults are free to do whatever turns their crank, but I have to say that I'm pretty concerned about the child in this situation.
 
He does realize that he's harming his kid by having his primary caregiver be someone insane who punishes him for no reason and goes into murderous rages, right? As hard as it may be to contemplate, the little guy would probably be better off with a grandparent, aunt or uncle, someone...

Let me say it as clearly as I can -- it is dangerously irresponsible to allow someone unstable to be your child's caregiver. If someone called social services, they could make a strong case for having the child removed from that situation.
 
"I don't believe him to be a liar, really."
"After a while, he started hiding it to keep me from bitching."

If my boyfriend asks me if I'm seeing someone else romantically, and I know he won't like it if I say yes, and I say no-- I am lying!
 
I realize what you two are saying about the dangers of her being the primary caregiver while being unstable. We are working on her getting a psych to talk to. In the meantime, the boy actually does stay quite a bit at Grandma's.

Let me be clear that we are all very careful about not having words or anything while Jay's son is around. He is not privy to much of any of what I've said here, other than that I stay there too. Yes, he does get put in time out for the wrong things, but those instances are usually cleared up and Bea apologizes to him.

I'm asking for help from this board to clear my own head, so some of what I say is going to biased since you all are only reading one side of the story. Please try not to jump to conclusions when something is said. I encourage you to ask me questions for clarification, if it'll help you work me through some of this. I'll do my best to clarify so I can get the most from what you're saying. Thanks.
 
Six random, poly-friendly strangers are all telling you that there are major red flags here, and that this guy is bad news unless he makes big changes. I really don't think it's that we don't understand what you've said; I think this is just an objectively bad situation. We can't help work you through to a solution where there isn't one. :( I'm sorry.

I can understand why you might be eager to second-guess yourself and assume that our pessimistic advice is because of your biased account. But give yourself and your writing abilities some credit. You're not being unfair; this is just a really problematic situation and a really problematic guy.

If he's willing to change things... okay. Maybe he can break these patterns and build the life he says he wants with you. Maybe. If he's not willing, or not able, because this may just be an aspect of his condition that will never change, that's really, really, really not okay, not healthy, not safe, not cool.

Again, see my comment about loving someone, but knowing a partnership with them isn't right for you.

In your romantic history, is there a pattern of people and situations that have been bad for you?
 
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AnnabelMore said:
"I don't believe him to be a liar, really."
"After a while, he started hiding it to keep me from bitching."

If my boyfriend asks me if I'm seeing someone else romantically, and I know he won't like it if I say yes, so I say no, I am lying.
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I realize that he lied and I called him on it. However, I believe I gave him a reason to lie that time. And to be fair, I never actually asked him if he was still seeing her. I just assumed. I shouldn't have assumed, and he shouldn't have hidden it. We're working on it.
 
naturebug32 said:
However, Nora took herself out of the picture long before Bea was in the picture, by going into some sort of depression after giving birth to their son. She refused to take care of the baby or herself, leaving Jay to take of them, both before and after work, and during lunch break. Even Jay's mom will attest to this.
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Shame on him and his mom for not getting the wife to the doctor for Postpartum Depression. This is a serious condition that can have tragic results. Personally, I would consider this neglect and irresponsibility on the part of ALL the adults in this mom's life. It's great that he stepped up and cared for the kid, but that didn't negate his responsibility for getting his wife immediate medical help.

I agree with other posters. This guy has serious RED FLAGS and seems to thrive on drama in his life. Time to deal with the real issues, which all center around Jay himself.
 
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