Can a monogamous secondary be satisfied?

[LovingRadiance]

Thank you for addressing this. It's the kind of thing that helps me understand BF's mindset. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe that's exactly what he would do.

I know that's what I would do, but I also don't consider my boyfriend secondary. (It has taken a ridiculous amount of time to get to where we are.) It's not evenly broken up in terms of time/attention, but a lot of that has to do with the differences in needs and desires.

GG is a much more independent person than Maca. He's also more... private? For example, he would never make out with me in front of another person. It just doesn't work for him. But it doesn't bother him if Maca makes out with me (mildly) in front of him. So, we don't make out in front of my Maca, it would piss him off, but the reason we don't make issue of the "double standard" is because we don't want to anyway.

The same is true of sleeping. Both GG and I sleep better alone. So generally, I sleep with Maca at night (which allows GG to get some alone sleep for a couple hours). We go to bed about 10. GG gets home from work about 1am, is asleep by 2am. Maca leaves for work at 6am, and I move up to GG's room for more sleep, until he gets up about 9am.

So, while I generally spend the nights with Maca, it isn't because he's "primary" or because GG is "secondary". It's because it is what works best for all of us. I think that is the key difference, actually.

Our boundary lists were made as a group, not just by Maca and me. We all discussed our individual needs and desires. None of us got EXACTLY what we'd want in a perfect world, but we all got the most important things we needed, and we all compromised for the benefit of the others.
Some things are still a work in progress. But there's never been a point when I have allowed the importance of my GG to be ignored, even though Maca would have preferred that. In fact, that was our biggest struggle, because he did want me to flat-out label it as a secondary relationship, and lay things out so that he always came first.

We compromised where it was reasonable to compromise, either because it wasn't important to GG and me, or because it wasn't as important to us as it was to Maca.

Bottom line, they both have equally meaningful places in my heart, in my family and in my life.

 

[WhatHappened]

TGIG, I won't re-quote everything, but thank you for some thoughtful answers.

He and I did talk last night--a bit obliquely, admittedly--about the issue of him going out with her on my one free night. I think it's more a matter of scheduling and planning ahead. As far as I can tell, she is entirely for this relationship (although me being not at all of the poly or kink world, it's very different from his usual relationships, and I suspect she has had some adjusting to do herself).

It was also a matter of it being a time and place he can see some friends he's been seeing very little of lately, as a result of being with me, and I understand that. I think it's a very easy fix for him to go to the events on the nights I'm not available rather than the nights I am. (And actually, he changed his plans regarding that particular night and I will be seeing him after all.)

Seems like what you want for yourself may not line up with being in a secondary relationship, which is perfectly understandable.

It's possible I'm misrepresenting the actual situation. (I guess in part because there are so many aspects to it, it's hard to sum up any one of our individual stories in a few forum posts.) But right now, I actually am 95% happy with the situation. Right now, I don't want a husband; I don't want a boyfriend needing to see me every night; I don't need a man who expects to be introduced to the kids when they're still dealing with their father moving out and divorce. (I never planned on anything remotely like serious dating this soon, and didn't go out looking for it. I was loving being alone for awhile, in fact.) I don't particularly want a man in my house or involved in my finances. I'm still reeling from finding out what my ex-husband was up to financially, and the complete devastation it would have brought down on me and the kids had I not filed. I'm happy having my own space, my own home.

There are days I wonder if I'll ever want to share a home or finances with a man again. It seems pretty risky when I still thank God every morning, noon, and night to have escaped with a roof still over my head and no diseases from his cheating. So... really, it just may be that I will be happy with this situation forever.

But I'm looking at the future, trying to be realistic, and realizing most people eventually do come to want the whole package again, and it's highly likely I will. And it seems foolish to set myself up for a time when I'll almost certainly want what I almost certainly will not be able to have.

AC, I'm starting to feel like I've thread-jacked here, and apologize, but hope it will all be taken as a discussion of the issue at hand, of mono secondaries.

 

[AnotherConfused]

I think, within my own heart, I want to spend a good deal of my time with my husband and family, and a good deal of time with Colin. Mostly I've been able to see Colin during the middle of the day on a weekday, when the kids are at school and my husband is at work. I think I've been trying especially hard not to let any time with Colin infringe on time I would otherwise spend with my husband, because I feel guilty about it-- guilty for changing the rules of our marriage years into it.

My husband's attitude is, "Why should I give anything up? I don't owe Colin anything," and he has had a lot of conversations with me about needing me to devote more time to the kids and more time to him. I've offered to reduce hours at work (I run a business and am flexible that way), if he feels I'm neglecting anything at home, but I think maybe it just comes down to the idea that I'm off spending time with Colin, when he is working, or whatever.

I push and push for him to take time to go enjoy whatever he wants to enjoy, whenever he wants to, but he has a hard time letting himself do that, for some reason. (Other women don't interest him at all; I would just like him to pursue hobbies or sports or friendships.) So my time going out always exceeds his.

Sometimes I think how silly it is to try to make Colin have zero impact on my time with family, when no one minds at all if I take half an hour to go jogging, or an evening to go dancing, or an afternoon to spend with a woman friend. Shouldn't I be free to divide my time among my own priorities? Deep down, I think I should, and I want my husband to see things in terms of what he needs and receives from me, rather than how I spend time beyond that. But this poly guilt creeps in and I worry about spending too much time with Colin. And then, of course, I feel guilty for not offering C as much of my time as I'd like to give him... although he doesn't take half of what I offer.

I know it would open the door to a lot more time for both of them if I could be with them both together sometimes, but my husband will only do that if Colin and I give up physical intimacy. We strongly considered it, but we knew we could only ever manage if we thought it was temporary, and that didn't feel honest. It doesn't matter anyway, I guess, since Colin is "too busy for more than a couple of hours every few weeks," anyway.

I wonder what would happen if C ever "needed" me for anything. His life seems so complete without me, that I can't imagine that ever happening. But if it did, I hope my husband would want me to help.

 

[AnotherConfused]

AC--I'm starting to feel like I've thread-jacked here, and apologize, but hope it will all be taken as a discussion of the issue at hand, of mono secondaries.

Not at all! Your experiences are definitely helpful for me to read about. You had me thinking for a while that you were definitely in a bad place (and probably Colin was, too), but now I think you are in a relationship that suits your current needs and will fulfill you enough to keep you going until you are ready for something more primary again (and maybe Colin is, too). I've never liked the idea that a relationship that ends is a "failed" relationship, just one that outgrew its ability to benefit the people in it.

 

[WhatHappened]

You had me thinking for a while that you were definitely in a bad place (and probably Colin was, too), but now I think you are in a relationship that suits your current needs, and will fulfill you enough to keep you going until you are ready for something more primary again (and maybe Colin is, too). I've never liked the idea that a relationship that ends is a "failed" relationship, just one that outgrew its ability to benefit the people in it.

Funny how much talking it apparently takes me to be clear!

I suppose it is a difference in focus between looking at the present or looking at the future.

Interesting idea to redefine failure or success. I think this is how BF looks at relationships-- were they good at the time, why they ended, if they ended amicably and remained friends.

But fwiw, I do feel it's a little pointless to invest my heart and a lot of time and energy in something I know can't last, although I certainly seem to be investing the time and energy, regardless.

 

[AnotherConfused]

Talk about not feeling valued...

About 4 weeks ago, Colin told me he'd have some free time between last weekend and this, when he'd be in my part of the state, and we decided we'd spend the time together. He later amended that to exclude Friday and Monday, but we were planning on Tuesday morning through Friday morning (all the hours my husband was at work, plus one evening of dinner and going out together). I've been looking forward to this ever since. I arranged to take time off work, and shuffled my schedule so I wouldn't have much else to have to do for the next three days, as well as lining up a babysitter so we could have some time to ourselves.

This evening he emailed to suggest coming Wednesday afternoon, so he could have some more time to do laundry and run errands, and catch up on sleep.

I feel like I work extremely hard to make a space for him in my life, even though I have a husband. He means that much to me. The emotional work I've done, having conversations with my husband, the practical arrangements, all the soul searching I do. It's hard enough that most of our times together are his stopovers from one travel adventure to another, and at least half of them get canceled or shortened due to poor time planning. I chalk it up to his having a lot of things he loves to do, and not being good at estimating the time he needs in between for unpacking and repacking. But this-- setting aside 3 days, and then, at the last minute, changing it to one day and a half-- it doesn't feel like he really wants to be with me.

He doesn't understand why I'm upset. He says he won't go with that suggestion to change plans, then, and he'll be here tomorrow after all, but he doesn't see why I would take it personally that he'd want to shorten our time together. He didn't realize I was taking time off work. I'd forwarded him three different emails in which I had written that I was taking time off! He thought three hotel nights would be too much money to spend. He has a retirement budget that exceeds his actual spending by several thousand dollars a month!

I guess it's not always the person with a primary partner who doesn't have enough time for their secondary. Even a monogamous secondary can make their girlfriend feel unimportant. I might just let this be the end.

 

[AnotherConfused]

And in spite of making my feelings extremely clear, about needing to feel valued and always feeling like I'm put last, he emailed a cheery little note this morning to say he'd gone back to sleep a few times this morning and was coming half an hour later then scheduled. And later, another little note to say he'd spent some time on email with his former employer and would be another half hour late.

He's either incredibly clueless, or he's actively trying to push me away, I think. Am I being oversensitive?

It feels like this to me:
Me: I don't feel like I have an important place in your life, because you make so little time for me.
C: No, you really are important to me; I'm just bad at scheduling. Here, I'll spend three days with you next month.
Me: Great! I'll clear my schedule.
C (the night before): Oh, do you mind if I come a day and a half late? I would rather do laundry tomorrow than see you, and you probably have to work anyway.
Me: This really hurts my feelings. I feel like I'm your last priority.
C: I don't see why this makes you feel that way, but okay. I'll be there tomorrow at 10:30.
Me: See you at 10:30 then, but I'm still hurting.
C: Mmm, sleeping late felt good. See you at 11 instead.
Me: (fuming)
C: Guess what? My former boss emailed me, and I didn't have anything more important to do, so I spent some time working for free. I'll see you at 11:30.

It's starting to make sense, his being single at age 57.

 

[Arrowbound]

Sounds like he's being an ass. I'd probably just let this dwindle.

 

[AnotherConfused]

He was due here 20 minutes ago. No word about why he's delaying even more. If nothing else, it will be entertaining to hear him explain.

 

[CielDuMatin]

Some people are unreliable and are incapable of following-through on committments that they have made. To those people who believe very strongly in making commitments and sticking to them, these people seem flaky and uncaring.

This is who he is - you have made it very clear to him what your priorities and expectations are, and he seems incapable of living up to them. Based on what you have said so far, it doesn't seem malicious - just his character.

You said he is retired, so chances are this is the life he wants to have, and it would be foolhardy (and a bit disrespectful) to try to change that.

So you have to make a choice of whether you want to have a relationship with someone with these qualities, or not. If yes, then I'd suggest that you don't make any firm commitments, or rearrange your life to fit him in. If stuff fits, then it fits. If not, then *shrug* oh well.

 

[Marcus]

Follow Through

"I know tomorrow is the one night you're free, but my wife wants to do something."

Wow, that's really rude.

I certainly hope that the wife was unaware of his plans and wasn't just being a bitch, and that there was some underlying emergency involved and he wasn't just being spineless.

 

[WhatHappened]

Originally Posted by WhatHappened
"I know tomorrow is the one night you're free, but my wife wants to do something."

Wow, that's really rude.

I certainly hope that the wife was unaware of his plans and wasn't just being a bitch, and that there was some underlying emergency involved and he wasn't just being spineless.

He didn't say those words directly. The full quote was,

the phone call I got the next day was, essentially, "I know tomorrow is the one night you're free, but my wife wants to do something."

In his defense, when he and I go out depends on my ex-husband's schedule (so the kids aren't sitting home alone), and that schedule moves around. Still, there's a pattern to it, and bf did know that was my free night. I think he forgot, and the plans had been made some time before, and he'd forgotten about those plans, too.

In the end, he cancelled the plans and he and I did go out together.

 

[WhatHappened]

AnotherConfused, as much as I can understand why someone might not invest in a relationship that can't lead to a future, a spouse, a home together, etc., it sounds like it's just outright thoughtlessness, at best, at this point.

 

[AnotherConfused]

AnotherConfused, as much as I can understand why someone might not invest in a relationship that can't lead to a future, a spouse, a home together, etc., it sounds like it's just outright thoughtlessness, at best, at this point.

Well, it turns out he was just really clueless about how I've been feeling, partly due to being so busy he'd been only scanning my last several emails. He also has a habit of over-scheduling himself. He was also hesitating to put time with me on his calendar for fear my husband wouldn't like it. We talked it all through and cried a lot and came to a much better place, and he wrote me into his calendar for next month. He also has thanked me for encouraging him to be here, because it has been a fantastic time getting to be together.

Meanwhile, my husband has been "clarifying" our rules by objecting to more and more things I've tried to do with Colin, and has now outright forbidden his presence in our house, whether my husband is home or not. He keeps pointing out how much more time, effort and money he's put into it. He works full time. I am the caregiver parent. I also run my own business part time (which doesn't make much money).

This makes me feel like it is not my house, just his house.

So tonight, Colin's last night in town for this visit, will be our last date for a while, and I will give monogamy another try in order to try to save my marriage. I have no idea how this will work, because I love Colin very much. That will be true whether I am with him or not, whether we touch each other or not.

Colin is adamant that he wants no part in breaking up my marriage. My husband now is equally adamant that my being polyamorous doesn't work for him. What does this mean? How do I stop? I have no idea how to do this, but I know I have to try. It feels like ripping my heart out.

 

[Arrowbound]

Where is this "clarification" coming from all of a sudden? Why is your husband dictating to you? Have y'all had a conversation about this, or are you just resigned to doing what he wants?

This can end up not being good for your mental health, to be frank. I'm gleaning a lot of "I have to, or else" from all of this. Not good.

 

[AnotherConfused]

What honestly seems to be happening is that we run into "grey areas," where we haven't explicitly laid things out clearly enough, and suddenly I either find myself having done something that my husband thought I "should have known was not okay," or find my husband nixing a plan that I thought should have been okay. In his mind, I am continually "pushing the boundaries" every time this happens.

For example, when he had plans to go out the other night for volleyball, and it was one of Colin's 3 nights in town, I suggested Colin come over while he was out, and we'd watch a family movie with the kids. My husband felt this was completely unacceptable, because the movie room is the basement room where he works from home, and that felt like a violation to him. Instead, he canceled his own plans and stayed home. Up to that point, I had understood our agreement to be "Colin doesn't come over when my husband is home," and "Colin and I will not be intimate in our house," an implicit "other people don't go in our bedroom," along with my attempts to limit my time with Colin to times my husband isn't spending with me anyway. So he clarified that he didn't want Colin "coming over" to do activities at our house, but only being here incidentally, such as to pick me up, or to spend time with me if I am too ill to go out. (I had another relapse of pericarditis and have been in bed a lot again,)

The next day, I was out with Colin, and my pain came back and I felt a strong need to lie down. For complicated reasons, we had about 20 minutes when the place Colin was staying in wasn't available to us. I was at a loss. I finally decided that I should be allowed to lie down in my own home when I'm in pain. So we returned to my house and went to the guest room, which doubles as my home office. It it is the closest thing I have to my own room.

The bed is in a nook, with no space for a chair, so Colin stretched out alongside me. No cuddling, of course-- I was under the covers, he was not. My husband was irate to find this out, and to realize that we had passed through the movie room to exit the house 20 minutes later. The bed in the guest room is one we used to have in our bedroom, so to my husband, it was obvious that Colin shouldn't have been on it.

In the end, my husband felt these grey areas were so pervasive that it would be best just to bar Colin from our house entirely. I don't like going along with this at all. My home is a big chunk of my life I don't want to keep hidden from a loved one. But as my husband keeps pointing out, it has been mostly his earnings paying for the place, so he feels he has the right to make these rules.

I've been browsing condo ads. I want a place where I can make my own rules. My husband supports me using my own earnings for my own place, not to live in, just a getaway. I think this will make "our home" even more into "his home."

I just think that, in the end, it comes down to my husband really not being okay with this relationship with Colin, and Colin being firmly against causing problems in my marriage, which pretty much leaves me in the position of trying to make monogamy work. I've asked my husband to let me know what kind of agreement he would feel really truly comfortable with. He says he felt "coerced" into all our previous agreements. He is taking some time to figure that out. I don't know what to expect. Colin is just hanging back, being prepared to engage with me as much or little as I offer.

I hate how complicated life has become just because of the addition of some extra love.

 

[AnotherConfused]

We have it! We have an agreement that we are all satisfied with, and I couldn't be happier. For my husband, my relationship with Colin itself has not been as difficult for him to cope with, as has the messy way it has overlapped with his home life with me, causing one misunderstanding after another, with all the grey areas involved.

We've decided that an ongoing relationship between Colin and me will be possible, though, by limiting it to a couple of clearly defined, discussed in advance, days per month, when I go to see Colin, rather than him coming to our city. We already have a weekend event planned together in October, but for the most part, I'll be able to schedule days mid-week so that my time away is largely while the kids are at school and my husband is at work.

This helps tremendously in my relationship with Colin as well, whose life is largely a series of events and trips one after another. Rather than trying to fit me in between, or having to give something up to make time for me, I can simply join him for something each month that is close enough for me to get to for a couple of days. This can help satisfy his desire for a partner who can travel with him, although I know two days a month isn't much.

I've always been frustrated by the frantic feeling of our times together, when they have been limited to an hour or two, and we barely have time to get past small talk to just relax in each other's presence. He's often felt bad about having this busy life that leaves little time for me, even though he is thinking of me and has expressed an intention to make me more of a priority. Now he can know that with our times together scheduled in advance for an agreed amount and frequency, he doesn't need to try to alter his habits to accommodate me.

During the days in between, I can give my focus fully to my husband and kids. My husband and I have discussed things for hours and are already finding ways to improve what we have between us, so this is feeling like a win-win-win to me. We recognize that grey areas and misunderstandings will no doubt arise eventually, but I think they will be much easier to see coming, so we should be able to resolve them without all the drama and pain we've been through lately.