It's a Texlahoma Story

I'm sorry you seem so stuck in limbo.

Also your cosplay was awesome!
 
FallenAngelina said:
Everything emanates out from how we see ourselves, so no amount of negotiating with Dag will fix this. ...
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If I may dare paraphrasing (I am not entirely sure if I get what FallenAngelina says, but I think I've got a sense, please correct me if I don't).
This is an approach to problems when you work on the inside, and expect the outside to kind of follow. So, from this viewpoint, if you work on your self-esteem, what will probably happen is
- you will feel better about yourself
and in consequence
- you will either become comfortable with what Dag is doing
- or you will become comfortable breaking up, because you realize that you deserve better
- you find a more natural way to negotiate
- or something else, which nevertheless reflects the internal journey you have done.
No need to work towards one of the outcomes, because focusing on being the best of you alone leads you in your decision-making. Also, the improvement is more lasting then if you "just" manage to sort out things in one particular life situation, because the issues are less likely to re-emerge.
It's also an approach that realizes that things take time sometimes.

I actually believe this, the only problems putting this approach to reality I see are 1) sometimes it is really painful to wait up until outside things follow internal changes, 2) sometimes we have no idea how to do that internal work effectively.

Does this make more sense? :)
 
I read FallenAngelina's post as saying we can only control ourselves, not others.

You are perceiving Dag's behavior in a certain way because of factors within yourself. (Your self-esteem, past experiences, etc.)

*You* cannot change Dag's behavior. Only Dag can do that. You can ask him to change, but it's ultimately his choice. And if someone makes a change only because someone else wants them to, rather than because they themself sees the need to change, it rarely sticks.

(Example: My kids and I asked Hubby repeatedly for the first 2 or 3 years we knew him to stop smoking. He consistently refused. It wasn't until he realized he was having trouble breathing, and was spending a ridiculous amount of money on cigarettes when we needed that money for bills and he could have spent some of it on books or games, and decided he wanted to be around to see my kids grow up and have kids of their own, that he actually quit--because *he* saw the need to quit, rather than other people telling him *they* saw that need.)

What you *can* change, if you choose, is how you think about things and how you react to them. If you don't like something Dag does, rather than trying to change *his* behavior, you can choose to change your reaction; if your first inclination is to just keep your mouth shut, you could instead choose to say "I don't like it when you do that." Or you could choose to think "I deserve better than that" instead of "I don't deserve good things from my partners.

You could choose to break up with Dag because you aren't compatible. You could choose to recognize that other people don't necessarily friendship or relationship the way you do and that's okay; or you could choose to recognize that and only bring people into your life who *do* things the way you do. Etc.

Understanding that you have choices and control of your own life and behavior is the first step to being able to develop a life you enjoy and are happy with. But if you focus only on others' behavior, you might begin to feel that you have no choice and no control...because when it comes to *their* behavior, that's true. You can't choose or control what they do. Only what you do.

Did that make any sense? I think I'm rambly today.
 
**** When I read this over, I honestly thought about deleting it instead of posting it. But, it's honest, it's how I feel, so I'll put it up. With this disclaimer that this is my crazy brain, not my rational brain ;) ***

KC and Tinwen, yes, those thoughts do help...

My self esteem stuff is so confusing and weird, I don't exactly know how to work on it. I don't even know if "self esteem" is the right term.

I still feel good about myself overall. I know I'm smart, and fun, and interesting. I'm good at my work, and talented in other areas, too. I'm a great wife, and a great friend - loyal, caring, a good listener, able to be a shoulder to cry on/advice giver or cheer someone up as needed. I'm still in kick-ass shape despite weighing a few more pounds than I'd like. I'm pretty enough in a girl-next-door way.

I've just started to believe that none of that matters to Dag, or would matter to any guy I date in the future :( That married/partnered poly guys are just looking for arm candy and sex.

And I feel like I can't compete on those. I'm 37 for fucks sake, I may be a workout fiend and an eye cream junkie, but I'm never going to look 22. Plus I'm just not comfortable in the skintight mini dresses Dag loves. I love sex with Dag, and when we're together for a while I could do it all day, every day :eek: - but I definitely have one of those "responsive" sex drives. I don't wander around horny all day, or show up to dates raring to go. It takes me an hour or two of being around someone - smelling them, touching them, watching them - before my brain goes, oh yeah, sex!!

So there's this sense of sucking as a "girlfriend", and not being what poly guys want in a new partner - despite still feeling like I'm all around awesome and someone worth having as a life partner or friend. Dag doesn't want to talk about neurotransmitters, or have me design him a new deck. He doesn't want me to be there with homemade soup when he's sick, or get a promotion at work. He just wants to fuck.

I do understand this is not reality, just what it's like in my messed up brain. But I don't know how to un-mess it :cool: Focusing on all the great stuff I do, or even spending time with the people who appreciate it all, doesn't fix the specific issue... Not when I feel like I'd be a more desirable girlfriend if I quit doing all that shit and just sat around taking naked selfies all day.
 
My therapist suggested that instead of working on self-esteem (which I've always thought was a bunch of feel good nothingness, ever since I was introduced to the whole concept in a special class in 4th grade), that I work on my self-compassion. He recommended this website and the website owner's book http://self-compassion.org. The reason he wanted me to work on my self-compassion is that I am really compassionate to other people but when it comes to myself, I have a tendency to be incredibly judgmental and mean. I'd never treat another person the way I treat myself in my self-talk, especially when I'm struggling emotionally. This book and Brene Brown's books about vulnerability and shame have helped me immensely.

It seems like to me, from reading your posts, that you might also be struggling with self-compassion. If your good friend came to you to talk about issues like you're struggling with in your relationship with Dag, would you tell her that none of her good points matter, that the only thing that matters is making herself over into what she thinks her boyfriend wants in a girlfriend, so that the only important thing about her is that she's the perfect girlfriend? I really doubt it, I think you'd be upset that your friend would want to give up all the wonderful, amazing things that make her so special for the sake of becoming her boyfriend's idea of a perfect girlfriend. Yet you post about the fact that you will only have value to Dag if you are the perfect, compliant girlfriend. You discount all the wonderful things that make you the amazing person you are because you feel it would be better to be what you imagine Dag wants, that you only have value if you somehow comply with this vision of the perfect girlfriend you've made in your mind.

You have value because you are who you are. You give of yourself to your husband and friends in amazing ways. I admire you for the person you've shown to us since you joined the board. I hope you are able to get to the point again that you are able to value yourself for who you are, instead of devaluing yourself because of not measuring up to some imagined perfect girlfriend. <hugs>
 
Hannahfluke said:
You have value because you are who you are. You give of yourself to your husband and friends in amazing ways. I admire you for the person you've shown to us since you joined the board. I hope you are able to get to the point again that you are able to value yourself for who you are, instead of devaluing yourself because of not measuring up to some imagined perfect girlfriend. <hugs>
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This! 100% this! We value you a ton here!
 
Thanks guys :) I needed to hear that, tough night here.

I'm trying to sort through some stuff with Dag over text, which ... Sucks. I'll try to post about it tomorrow.

Andy is dealing with some rough Stephanie stuff tonight :( He has always known that she was sexually assaulted by a family member at a young age. (The ensuing issues around sex are why Steph has always been more of a friend/ romantic partner to him, than a sexual one, she tends to blow up any sexual relationships on her life in dramatic fashion. ) But I guess she recalled some stuff on the trip to visit her aunt, and is coming to terms with the fact that the sexual assaults happened repeatedly, for years. It's unclear to me (and I'm not going to poke Andy for details) if Steph is just remembering this now, or if she's been aware but not wanting to think about it or process it.

Andy gave me the bare sketch he did only because he's basically like, "Help! What do I say?" (Steph knows I know about the one experience she shared with Andy before, so I'm hoping she's fine with me hearing this. Sigh.) I'm looking at Andy like, I dunno! I'm one of the lucky women who has never experienced anything like that! And yes, I'm technically a therapist, but to KIDS. My counseling adults experience is limited to what I learned in school, and hey Andy, you took those same classes. Not to mention, Steph doesn't want a therapist, or she'd have called hers. She wants her person. Her friend-boy.

Who is googling "what to say to someone who's been raped" right now.

So yeah. If anyone has any advice I'll take it. And thanks again to everyone for all the kind words and support lately!
 
"I'm here if you want to talk about it." or "Is there anything I can do to support you right now."? This seems like one of those things where compassionate listening is going to be a lot more helpful than saying much of anything.

But I'm a listener, not a talker, so I dunno. =(
 
AutumnLeaves said:
"I'm here if you want to talk about it." or "Is there anything I can do to support you right now."? This seems like one of those things where compassionate listening is going to be a lot more helpful than saying much of anything.

But I'm a listener, not a talker, so I dunno. =(
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Listening is what Andy ended up doing, all night. Well, reading, actually... Steph was around her mom, who knows nothing about all this apparently, so they did it all over text. I hope it helped.

This morning Andy was basically just angry at Steph's parents, for not protecting her back then. I am too, although it's less personal for me. I don't know how/if he's going to manage helping Steph with her mom's end-of-life care at this point.

:(
 
I've been trying all night to write about what's going on with Dag, but the words are never right. Same shit different month is probably the best way to sum it up. I summon all my courage and tell him I'm unhappy with x and y, could we try z? And he says, absolutely! Z is what I want, too!

I guess I'm jaded these days, because I have very little hope anything will change.

On the other hand, I am taking to heart the advice about focusing on *me* and the changes I can make. No more saying yes to last minute dates. I need to stick to that. Either planning ahead (I'm talking like, 24 hours ahead) works for Dag, or we are just not compatible.

In the middle of our texting back and forth, Dag wrote this:

Our relationship is not a fleeting few month thing. We've been together far longer and I feel we've grown together. I do not have fear, anxiety when it comes to us. I don't feel I'm trying to be someone that you want me to be. I trust you. I harbor no jealousy. I value the time we can spend together. I've shared a level of intimacy that I have not shared with anyone. We are friends, and incredible lovers. You are very important to me. I'm going to try and be more inquisitive about what you are feeling and ask that you continue to be honest with me on what are you feeling.

Kind of ironic, huh? We weren't actually talking at all about me feeling insecure or like I have to be perfect for him. We'd gone off on a tangent about his ex, and he was basically contrasting our relationship to the one he had with her. But it just blew my mind, the words he chose. About not having fear or anxiety; not having to try to be what I want.

How can two people in a relationship experience it so differently?
 
Differently? Hmm, it seems to me he's more in tune with you than you want to believe.

I think his last sentence there is saying that he knows there is stuff that bothers you but you won't tell him what it is. He seems to be wanting things to get more real between you two. Maybe you can stop pretending and hiding and telling yourself what a good girlfriend is "supposed to" do or be, and actually express to him your disappointments and anger instead of all the torment and twisting yourself into knots that you put yourself through.
 
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GirlFromTexlahoma said:
But it just blew my mind, the words he chose. About not having fear or anxiety; not having to try to be what I want.

How can two people in a relationship experience it so differently?
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Because YOU'VE been the one bending over backwards, accommodating him? He doesn't have to try to be what you want because you've been working so hard to meet him more than halfway...
 
nycindie said:
Differently? Hmm, it seems to me he's more in tune with you than you want to believe.

I think his last sentence there is saying that he knows there is stuff that bothers you but you won't tell him what it is. He seems to be wanting things to get more real between you two. Maybe you can stop pretending and hiding and telling yourself what a good girlfriend is "supposed to" do or be, and actually express to him your disappointments and anger instead of all the torment and twisting yourself into knots that you put yourself through.
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Maybe "see it differently" was the wrong phrase... Experience it differently? I guess what I'm wondering is, how can he feel loved and secure and comfortable, while I feel the opposite? Or maybe just, how does this relationship work for him, when it so completely doesn't work for me?

The big reason I don't just flat out tell him what I need is that I don't know what I need. I can't really imagine a relationship like this ever feeling right to me. I need that "you and me, no matter what" feeling.

It's not even a "relationship" thing, exactly. I have that feeling with K and D. I'd do ANYTHING for them. Fly cross country to bail them out of jail, anything. Andy is that way with Steph. He's been up two nights straight talking to her about this past trauma stuff. He's wrecked. But he'll do it again tonight, and every night for as long as she needs. Dag ... He has a wife, and kids, who don't know I exist. He can't prioritize me that way, even if he wanted to.

I just don't like trying to be and feel committed romantically to someone I see once a week. I don't feel like I can sustain any sexual or romantic feelings with so little face time. I feel endlessly guilty about it, but when it's been a while since I've seen Dag in person, I stop thinking of him sexually at all. And it's hard to get back into that mindset when I do see him again.

What would work for me? Seeing someone at least once a week for a fully clothed activity - lunch, hiking, bookstore, whatever - and having any sexy date nights be a bonus on top of that. I need the "friend time", or I stop wanting the sex time. And I need the "I'm here for you anytime, day or night, no matter what" part of a close friendship.

Can Dag do that? Would he? I don't know. The other night we talked again about a standing weekly time to connect. I was thinking go get coffee and the latest comic releases every Wednesday. He said maybe Thursday night because it's an easy night to get a hotel room. :mad:

Do I even want anything from him anymore? Or am I looking down the road, imagining what another relationship could look like?

Maybe I'm just done, bored, restless, I don't know. Maybe I miss dating. Maybe I miss being selfish with my time. Maybe I'm just looking for a reason to break things off. A way to end this without feeling like the bad guy.
 
He feels loved and secure and comfortable because you love him and bend over backwards, as was said, to make him feel secure and comfortable.

The relationship is working for him because you are meeting his needs.

You don't feel loved and secure and comfortable because he is not communicating love and security and comfort to you in a way you recognize as such.

The relationship is not working for you because he is not meeting your needs.

But...

He CAN'T meet your needs, because he does not know what they are! You either can't tell him because you aren't sure yourself, or you don't tell him because "a good girlfriend wouldn't tell him" or because "a good boyfriend would know without being told."

If you don't know something about yourself, it is completely unfair to expect someone else to know it about you. If you know it but aren't willing to express it to them, it is equally unfair for you to expect them to know it.

It's been pointed out to you before in this blog, including in my post a couple of days ago, that not everyone sees friendship and relationships the way you do. The whole "drop everything any time of the day or night" thing? The only people I can say I would unquestionably do that for is my kids, and I'm not even entirely sure about that. I would probably do it for Hubby or Woody, but maybe not. I don't have any friends I would do it for, because I don't have any friends I would expect to do it for me.

You're expecting Dag to do friendship/relationship the way you do... but does he even know that you do that, or that you expect it of him? Or is that one of the things you don't tell him because it would make you "a bad girlfriend"?

Sorry if this sounds harsh. I'm not trying to sound that way, but it seems like this is a pretty big mental block you have, and we could go back pages and pages in this blog and find a time on almost every single page when the same block has been discussed. So I'm sounding a bit more hard-ass than usual because I'm trying to get your attention, I guess...
 
GirlFromTexlahoma said:
The other night we talked again about a standing weekly time to connect. I was thinking go get coffee and the latest comic releases every Wednesday. He said maybe Thursday night because it's an easy night to get a hotel room.
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Just looking at words alone, I see, "I was thinking" versus "he said."
Did you communicate what you were thinking? Just wondering if this was a case of "agree with me after I say something and go off and forget about it later" or if he really doesn't know how you felt about it.
 
I'd suggest that even if you don't know entirely what you want, there's no reason that you can't express to him that the current status quo isn't working for you. There's no reason that you can't say "I'm honestly not sure exactly what I want and need out of this relationship for it to work for me, I'm trying to figure that out, but maybe we can figure that out together." Tell him the possible "It could be X, or Y, or Z." and see what of those things he's willing to work with you on. Maybe he'll agree to some changes and it will help, maybe he'll agree and they won't help and you'll know it's time to move on. Or maybe he can't give you any of those things and it's time to move on. But even not knowing what you want, that doesn't mean you can't explain to him that you're struggling.

I did that with a partner myself once and told them I honestly wasn't sure if I was losing interest or just stressed and therefore sidetracked. He said he didn't want to drag things out forever if it was just going to be a slow spiral of doom, but within a few weeks (without me doom talking constantly) I was still able to figure out on my own that I just wasn't feeling the relationship.

It's clear that you need something else from him if this is going to work.... it just doesn't seem that you can guarantee that it will work. But that's ok.
 
YouAreHere said:
Just looking at words alone, I see, "I was thinking" versus "he said."
Did you communicate what you were thinking? Just wondering if this was a case of "agree with me after I say something and go off and forget about it later" or if he really doesn't know how you felt about it.
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Yeah, I mentioned the comics idea, also weekly bike ride, movie night, dinner... I *thought* it was clear I was looking for quality friend time. Maybe not, though.

KC, I don't mind you being harsh. I kind of need it. I'm stuck in this mopey cycle and I'm annoying even myself at this point :rolleyes:

I do get that not everyone "relationships" the way I do. I thought I could be ok doing it a different way, but I'm obviously not ok. So I guess it's a matter of, can Dag relationship Claire-style? Or am I better off just only dating people who are more like me?

Breathemusic, I'm trying to write him a letter now that basically says what you suggested :) It's hard, I'm terrified he's just going to hate me or something. I don't know why I'm so scared of admitting I'm unhappy. I guess I'm afraid of coming across as ungrateful or unappreciative for all the things he does do for me.

Dag is just such a great guy. I hate hurting him or making him sad or stressed. This may not be the right relationship for me right now, but it's not his fault.
 
I'd say if you're worried about coming across as unappreciative, then just make sure that your letter says that as well. The letter can say that you're unhappy and talk about what things you need to happen, but also tell him about all the great things about him that you do love so he's not seeing it as "you suck, Dag" note and instead can see that there is both good and bad right now. If there was no good, you definitely wouldn't be trying to make it work.
 
GirlFromTexlahoma said:
The big reason I don't just flat out tell him what I need is that I don't know what I need.
...
I just don't like trying to be and feel committed romantically to someone I see once a week. I don't feel like I can sustain any sexual or romantic feelings with so little face time. I feel endlessly guilty about it, but when it's been a while since I've seen Dag in person, I stop thinking of him sexually at all. And it's hard to get back into that mindset when I do see him again.

What would work for me? Seeing someone at least once a week for a fully clothed activity - lunch, hiking, bookstore, whatever - and having any sexy date nights be a bonus on top of that. I need the "friend time", or I stop wanting the sex time. And I need the "I'm here for you anytime, day or night, no matter what" part of a close friendship.
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You are very clear about what you need from a relationship, GFT. 1 non-sex date + bonus. And it's not unrealistic at all. But Dag doesn't know.
Can he do it? I'm not a parent, but I think he could. Or is it so terribly impossible to get free time from family twice a week?
He could renegotiate with his wife. He could do is so that you can call instead of texting all the time. Texting, especially about feelings, is so confusing! He could tell her that he needs more friends time with you. He could even negotiate to tell the kids.
But now, if he feels secure, he has no reason.
 
GirlFromTexlahoma said:
The other night we talked again about a standing weekly time to connect. I was thinking go get coffee and the latest comic releases every Wednesday. He said maybe Thursday night because it's an easy night to get a hotel room. :mad:
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See the little red frowny face you added here? You are fibbing to yourself when you say you don't know what you want. If you didn't really have a clue, that little red frowny face wouldn't be there. When he responded as he did during the conversation, did you say, "Hey, wait a minute, that's not what I was talking about! I don't want every time we get together to be about sex!" No, huh? That is the kind of stuff I'm saying you should be able to express to him, but instead you swallow it and he goes along thinking everything's hunky-dory while you're feeling all sorts of disconnected and unsatisfied. But I do think he senses something is bothering you, from that text he sent. Gosh, do the guy a favor and enlighten him! Nobody likes being kept in the dark, especially when it comes to someone they care about and love.

I am glad to read that you're writing something to him about it. Be brave. You are afraid of hurting him and disappointing him, but just telling him the truth of what you are feeling is not going to hurt him. If he feels hurt about it, feeling hurt wouldn't be something you did to him. It would be his own emotional response and he is the only one responsible for that.

I have a feeling he will be receptive and willing to listen/read with an open heart because he loves and cares about you. BUT even if it turns out to cause an epic, disastrous fight or something terribly melodramatic... so what? At least you will have been true to yourself. Own that.

When I first started dating my ex-husband, I realized I was doing what I called "shrinking to fit." Like those ads for Levi's jeans. I tried to be what I thought my hubby wanted me to be - and this exasperated him to no end! Just be yourself and you'll be fine. No more shrinking to fit, okay, Claire!
 
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