Miserable, Doing it wrong. No idea what to do next

[Remnant]

Shaya, Thank you, very well expressed.

I think your definition of my goals is fairly accurate with the caveat that those are very short term goals.

I feel your wife has less control in this situation than you do. From what you've written, she seems to be financially and emotionally dependent on you. In addition, some women fear the social stigma of being a divorced single mother with children. If this is so, then her social, financial and emotional security is tied to you.

Fair

The result of this is that you can still achieve your final goals but your wife no longer can.

Fair (although MAY be able to achieve might be more accurate)

A point that I feel is absent here is around goals. If you are in a relationship and have very different (even opposing) long term goals to your partner, at some point one of you must either relinquish those goals or you have to acknowledge the differences and separate.

I don't know that we are at that point, but that's one of the problems, I don't know where that point IS, and the imbalance makes it very difficult to a) recognise and b) resolve

I feel that stating that you care more for your wife than you do about your affair partner will restore an element of control for your wife and I also feel it is a more honest statement

Unfortunately here we begin to disagree. I don't feel this statement would honest or accurate, and I KNOW the immediate result would be "good, then we are never seeing that woman again, either of us. ever."

I am willing to devote a substantial amount of time and energy to the relationship with my wife, I am not willing to abandon the other relationship for it, and pledging that would be dishonest.

I am unsure if your appraisal of my wife's goals is accurate "being no contact with affair partner, monogamy for ANOTHER 20 years, and recreating a connection between the two of you" She has in fact specifically stated that it is not, that she wishes and desires to get to a point in our relationship that what I desire is possible.

I feel that if your appraisal IS in fact accurate, then we are at a position that we must, respectfully if possible, and regretfully, separate as our desires and goals are not compatible. However...... doing so at this point would definitely not be respectful. *IF* those are my wife's goals she is not willing to admit so (quite possibly due to the power imbalance), so my options are to believe that they are not, or to accuse her of deception and terminate the relationship. This would be an EXTREME step that I'm not willing to take at this point.

 

[anamikanon]

Yes, I'm pretty much always outspoken. Whatever name you choose to call it is fine.

If you have such a poor opinion of your wife, may I ask why you want to remain with her?

Before you scream "assumption", you've stated that your ideal solution is polyamory and leaving wife for affair partner is only second best. So far, I haven't read anything particularly nice about your wife. 10 pages in. Not even so much as "cooks well" or "used to having her around" forget stuff like "she's special to me" or "I like being with her" or etc.

What I know about your wife from your posts:

• She's controlling
• She makes inappropriate choices if given control
• You said she could leave, but she chose to stay
• She is slow at accepting that you are now poly.
• Even your affair partner says isn't entirely blameless in you having an affair and has offered you a home if things go to shit.
• You are making so much sacrifice for her. Limiting your relationship and all and she doesn't seem to be making an effort.

Doesn't sound like someone to be with even if there wasn't an affair, no? Why are you giving her 6.5 days? Why are you depriving yourself of your first choice affair partner, meeting her with limitations no one likes? This is a dead serious question.

BTW, on the subject of "how much time", if a few days without contact are unbearable for you after a couple of months of an emotional affair. How much time is reasonable for your wife to accept that her years of an actual marriage, full sex and all, kids and all, shared home and all is a take it or leave it deal where you prefer someone else over her anyway?

 

[Shaya]

Polyamory is a lot of things, including being able to pick up new relationships without destroying the old one. Until your wife is more comfortable with the situation, I suspect many people on this forum will continue to see your ongoing efforts in this to be less like the polyamory we like to practice and more akin to the perpetuation of an affair.

You may get a better response from a non polyamory board.

In the end, our views don't matter. It's your wife's view that matters. It's her consent you need after all. How does she view the situation?

Cheers

 

[Remnant]

Yes, I'm pretty much always outspoken. Whatever name you choose to call it is fine.

If you have such a poor opinion of your wife, may I ask why you want to remain with her?

Before you scream "assumption", you've stated that your ideal solution is polyamory and leaving wife for affair partner is only second best. So far, I haven't read anything particularly nice about your wife. 10 pages in. Not even so much as "cooks well" or "used to having her around" forget stuff like "she's special to me" or "I like being with her" or etc.

What I know about your wife from your posts:

• She's controlling
• She makes inappropriate choices if given control
• You said she could leave, but she chose to stay
• She is slow at accepting that you are now poly.
• Even your affair partner says isn't entirely blameless in you having an affair and has offered you a home if things go to shit.
• You are making so much sacrifice for her. Limiting your relationship and all and she doesn't seem to be making an effort.

Doesn't sound like someone to be with even if there wasn't an affair, no? Why are you giving her 6.5 days? Why are you depriving yourself of your first choice affair partner, meeting her with limitations no one likes? This is a dead serious question.

BTW, on the subject of "how much time", if a few days without contact are unbearable for you after a couple of months of an emotional affair. How much time is reasonable for your wife to accept that her years of an actual marriage, full sex and all, kids and all, shared home and all is a take it or leave it deal where you prefer someone else over her anyway?

Valid. You haven't read anything particularly nice about my wife, or in fact my girlfriend, because this is long and dense enough already. We're at 11 pages!!!!

How is knowing the things I love about these 2 women going to make any difference? I'm not asking anyone here to make a decision for me (REALLY), Why do you want to know if she can cook????

And judging from your earlier comments inane drivel like "she's special to me", would have generated a fairly harsh response.

You are making so much sacrifice for her. Limiting your relationship and all and she doesn't seem to be making an effort.

Never said, thought or implied that she was not making an effort

in answer to the "dead serious question".

Because I love my wife, I don't want to leave my wife, and my preferred outcome is a relationship with both women. This may or may not be possible, but while my wife is specifically stating that it IS possible, that my desired outcome is a place that we can get too, I feel that that the current price (limited contact with GF and 90% of time allocated to wife) is an acceptable one to pay to determine whether my desired outcome is feasible.

Furthermore, The alternative appears to be to reject my wife without giving her the chance to come to terms with this, or to acknowledge that she can't.

 

[Remnant]

Polyamory is a lot of things, including being able to pick up new relationships without destroying the old one. Until your wife is more comfortable with the situation, I suspect many people on this forum will continue to see your ongoing efforts in this to be less like the polyamory we like to practice and more akin to the perpetuation of an affair.

You may get a better response from a non polyamory board.

In the end, our views don't matter. It's your wife's view that matters. It's her consent you need after all. How does she view the situation?

Cheers

I'm not sure that a non-polyamory board can deal with the concept of not choosing between them. My last counsellor certainly couldn't.

As an affair that she is grudgingly consenting to

 

[Tinwen]

We're hearing little to non details (compared to other posters) about Remnants wife and gf, or in fact about his feelings. People usually come with the plea of "I'm soooo in love, I don't want to loose either, I'm feeling torn and my heart is breaking and what about my children I'm depressed and barely eating ...". He's choosing carefully what he feels relevant for the decision and writes in a very detached manner. I wonder if it's actually a cultural difference but maybe it's individual indeed.

Remnant, I also wonder

• why you haven't answered the questions about your wife's education and job possibilities
• whether you've possibly 'omitted' mentioning that there's some kind of DS dynamics between you anyway

 

[anamikanon]

I am willing to devote a substantial amount of time and energy to the relationship with my wife, I am not willing to abandon the other relationship for it, and pledging that would be dishonest.

Perhaps part of the problem may be that you are not seeking advice from the right source. If what you want is an affair that your wife accepts, then a forum for consensual non-monogamy or even affair recovery may not be useful advice for how to make that happen, given that your wife isn't consenting and that is beyond your control at the moment.

Polyamory will tell you not to proceed on the second relationship without consent. Affair recovery will tell you to give up the other relationship and cut off all contact. Neither of which you are willing to do, to begin with.

No matter how much discussion happens, a fundamental problem will remain that polyamory needs your wife to consent. Essentially what you want here is to turn your wife into a secondary partner with you and affair partner having a sort of couple privilege (which also is considered unethical in polyamory).

What you have here is a limbo. We're on page 11 with no clarity in sight and I'm guessing it will be another 19 pages (not really, but I said 30 pages earlier, so trying to be consistent). You are continuing the affair with no ethical way to make it happen. No amount of discussing is going to result in "that's a good choice" unless there is either consent or a breaking up with either wife or affair partner. You're finding hope in bits and pieces of advice that sound promising. But it will be a while before you realize no matter the diversity in advice, proceeding without consent will remain a problem for polyamory and without giving your wife the control she needs to feel secure, her consent is unlikely and you are disinclined to give your wife any kind of right to refuse you having an affair.

I don't know if there are forums or sources of advice for how to make affairs work without too much trouble on the home front. I'm just guessing, but for example if you leave ethical behavior aside, you could have a secret affair. Or just be fine with an in-your-face affair and leave wife to cope or divorce. Or for that matter, what you're doing now. Continue the affair in a limited manner in order to escalate it as wife's capacity to cope improves. Or something. I don't know. But if your end goal is unethical, then it is going to be tough finding validation in philosophies endorsing consent and honesty both.

Or you need a miracle. Like your wife finding a lover and not giving a fuck what you do. Or just losing interest in you and staying for the security (that had happened to me in a previous abusive marriage. I stayed for 3 years for sake of kid till I felt ready to move on and cared ZERO what husband did - if he had affair, I'd probably cheer that he was too busy to harass me) Or something.

 

[anamikanon]

Valid. You haven't read anything particularly nice about my wife, or in fact my girlfriend

I know lots of nice things about your girlfriend. For example:

• She matters enough to you that given choice between wife and her, you'll take her
• She's been very understanding of your situation
• You both are missing each other badly
• She's offered you a home if things go bad

It isn't just about listing good qualities, you know. It is also about how you speak about a person that says whether you value them or not. The only good thing you've said about your wife is that she could one day be okay with your affair. That is in the backdrop of her already being not your choice if you have to choose one AND with you not liking how she went about seeking to be okay with it - took too long, controlled too much, etc. So hardly appreciation.

 

[Remnant]

We're hearing little to non details (compared to other posters) about Remnants wife and gf, or in fact about his feelings. People usually come with the plea of "I'm soooo in love, I don't want to loose either, I'm feeling torn and my heart is breaking and what about my children I'm depressed and barely eating ...". He's choosing carefully what he feels relevant for the decision and writes in a very detached manner. I wonder if it's actually a cultural difference but maybe it's individual indeed.

Remnant, I also wonder

• why you haven't answered the questions about your wife's education and job possibilities
• whether you've possibly 'omitted' mentioning that there's some kind of DS dynamics between you anyway

Fair comments

I am so completely in love. With BOTH women.

I could wax lyrical about my relationship with my wife, the problems and issues we've had (A lot), the way we've resolved them (most of them), how much I value our marriage, How I want to grow old with her. About how I can't imagine not being able to wake up beside her, or turn around at 3am while working and see her sleeping 10' away. For another 10 pages

I could also wax lyrical about my new relationship, about my girlfriend and how she made me feel, and grow, and be more than I ever thought I could be. About how she healed wounds I didn't even know I had and face things I'd buried. About how just knowing her gave me the strength to start writing again. About how I want to do so much with her, experience so much with her, about how being apart is physically painful. For another 10 pages.

I could talk about How I've been depressed, about actions in past and triggers, about feelings of low self esteem and having immense difficulty feeling like the "bad guy" and like everything I want or desire is completely unacceptable. About how I don't deserve happiness, or EITHER woman. I can talk about losing friends. I can talk about emotional abuse, and justifications, I can talk about suicidal tendencies (not current) and how I don't feel strong enough. For about 10 pages.

I don't think it's cultural. I'm attempting to be (as much as I can) detached and "just the facts" because even with the approach I've taken I'm getting comments about immaturity and histrionics and not caring about how others feel (not necessarily saying they are unjustified). How much worse would it be if I came here with a "woe is me, it's all terrible, I'll die if I can't have them" attitude?

Specific questions(sorry, lost in the flood):
Neither my wife or I have formal qualifications. I dropped out of high school in 6th form, her in..... 5th I believe (end of fifth)
(uhhhhhhhhh, different education systems - I'm not sure how that translates. School in NZ goes to 7th form which is age 18ish.)

I have roughly 2 thirds of a bachelors degree (which is almost exactly as much use as you'd think), my wife has a certificate.

My wife has previously been an early childhood carer, but the qualification requirements have changed and her last job was just over 12 years ago (about 7 months pregnant when she left and our eldest has just turned 12)

DS dynamics may need to be expanded on. If you are talking sexually, then no. I identify as a switch, until recently it has not been a sexual area we explored. My wife does not Dom well, And I'm not capable of Domming under the current situation, consent is not clear enough.

 

[Remnant]

I may indeed be in the wrong place, but I don't know a better one. And I HAVE received helpful information and perspectives here (which kinda implies I might be in the right place).

A polyamory board certainly APPEARS to be the appropriate place to start when the crux of my problem is that I'm in love with 2 women, one of whom identifies as poly.

Essentially what you want here is to turn your wife into a secondary partner with you and affair partner having a sort of couple privilege (which also is considered unethical in polyamory).

I feel that is inaccurate. I DON'T see my wife as a secondary partner, I dislike the terminology (and it doesn't appear to be universal in polyamory circles)

And I don't know that "having a sort of couple privilege" with my girlfriend is accurate either. And.... I'm not aware what is unethical THERE (yes lack of enthusiastic consent from my wife clearly is, but "also" implies there's something else I'm missing)

 

[anamikanon]

I could wax lyrical about my relationship with my wife, the problems and issues we've had (A lot), the way we've resolved them (most of them), how much I value our marriage, How I want to grow old with her. About how I can't imagine not being able to wake up beside her, or turn around at 3am while working and see her sleeping 10' away. For another 10 pages

If this is how you feel about your wife, you probably should explicitly apologise for and take back your ultimatum that she can leave the marriage if she wants. You are nowhere near a resolution and her feeling like the only alternative to accepting your affair is leaving is not going to make her feel secure in your relationship - which in turn will lead to control problems.

I highly suggest listening to her more and even if you find her control excessive or her choices inappropriate, give her a break. She's dealing with a lot. You admit you have fucked up. The hurt caused by the fuckup doesn't get wiped away that easy. And I am saying this with first hand experience of recovery.

For a sense of perspective:

I was completely crazy the first couple of months after Spexy's affair. And this is with Spexy having ended the affair and being absolutely available and completely patient no matter how crazy I went with hurt. We dont' have kids together. We were together just 2 years, that too LDR. I didn't know the other woman and I didn't have any problem whatsoever with her. STILL, I was hurt and irrational with the betrayal of me with the cruelty. Spexy reassured me he loved me. Readily answered whatever I needed to know as often as I asked without thinking I'm being an idiot. Created special experiences and made me feel loved and appreciated in every way. A year later, I still have the occasional residual hurt. Just 2 months later - I wasn't even done with not eating, not sleeping, not being in a daze of hurt.

Of course everyone deals with situations differently. But I think you are expecting a hell of a lot from your wife and perhaps you should give the judgements a break and even accept some craziness as a fact of dealing with pain and do your best to give her control. If your love for your girlfriend is so profound, it will survive some disappointment - the pain for all three of you is being seen as similar, but disappointment and frustration are vastly different from feeling betrayed and not valued in an intimate relationship.

 

[Tinwen]

I'm attempting to be (as much as I can) detached and "just the facts" because even with the approach I've taken I'm getting comments about immaturity and histrionics and not caring about how others feel (not necessarily saying they are unjustified). How much worse would it be if I came here with a "woe is me, it's all terrible, I'll die if I can't have them" attitude?

Think is, being more open could also have the opposite effect than you think it would have. Your chosen way of communicating contributes to making you seem almost ... heartless. Anyway, the essence of the advice would probably stay the same.

'Primary' and 'secondary' are standard terms, although disliked by many. 'Couple privilege' is often frowned upon, but hard to avoid. I don't think you're giving your gf couple privilege.

 

[Remnant]

even if you find her control excessive or her choices inappropriate, give her a break.

I have. And again. and again. and again. I'm not here to complain about my wife. I'm not saying that her actions are not understandable, or even (some of them) unjustified. but there is a limit to the number times you can accept deep emotional wounds from someone that knows EXACTLY where your weak points and triggers are, and is willing to use them. I'm not judging. I KNOW she is hurting, and that I've directly caused it. Some things are still not okay though.

If your love for your girlfriend is so profound, it will survive some disappointment - the pain for all three of you is being seen as similar, but disappointment and frustration are vastly different from feeling betrayed and not valued in an intimate relationship.

"disappointment and frustration" is not an even remotely accurate assessment of what I am and have been feeling.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand One of the reasons I initially omitted a stack of details :/

 

[Tinwen]

I can talk about emotional abuse

Can you please clarify? Are we talking about emotional abuse from your wife? If so, what behavior?

 

[Remnant]

Can you please clarify? Are we talking about emotional abuse from your wife? If so, what behavior?

Yes.

There have been 2 incidents that I would categorise as significant emotional abuse and 1 significant physical. Over 17 years.

There have also been behaviours that have been pointed out to me by others as abusive.

The significants are either significantly in the past, or a response to the current situation and therefore....... understandable if not acceptable.

 

[Tinwen]

It's 17 years. I don't judge you I don't judge her (or at least I try to ). I'm glad you two are getting therapy now.

GalaGirl sometimes suggests the out of the fog webside as an interesting resource for understanding some weird, possibly personality-disordered, traits. I link it just in case it happens to be interesting to you or her.

 

[PinkPig]

So, Remnant, is it fair to say that your income level is likely not sufficient for maintaining two residences? And, an equal distribution of property would not leave sufficient resources for your wife to maintain a decent standard of living while working in a lower paid position? Your divorce laws in NZ don't sound so unlike the divorce laws in my state...equal distribution of marital assets, alimony for set amount of time and only in specific cases, and child support based on parenting time. In my case, it was still possible to work within that framework and give my ex-h a better settlement than he would have received had we followed the rules to the letter of the law. My experience was that when both parties are in agreement and the settlement favors the party with less earning power, the court is more likely to agree to an inequitable distribution. That may be possible in your case, too. Figuring that out and making it known to your wife would be one way of removing alligators....and if it's framed (maybe during joint counseling) as a way to ensure that she has more power to decide, not as a means of booting her out, it may help even out some of the power imbalance in your relationship.

As for your current compromise, I think sticking with it without pushing boundaries or limits, for longer than it feels comfortable for you and your gf, could go a long way to show your wife that you're not just trying to steamroll your way through. And, by a while, I don't mean just a few weeks. I also think you could reframe your current thoughts on division of time. Yes, you will be with your wife the majority of the time...but that time isn't all about your wife/that relationship, like the few hours you have with your gf will be about your gf/that relationship. This is why I say date your wife... away from home, children, responsibilities, etc, which pull your focus from her/your relationship.

 

[anamikanon]

I'm not here to complain about my wife. I'm not saying that her actions are not understandable, or even (some of them) unjustified. but there is a limit to the number times you can accept deep emotional wounds from someone that knows EXACTLY where your weak points and triggers are, and is willing to use them. I'm not judging. I KNOW she is hurting, and that I've directly caused it. Some things are still not okay though.

This is the first reference of your wife causing deep emotional wounds as a part of her actions around your affair. You described control, then mentioned emotional abuse, then when asked about it, said that it was either a long time in the past or understandable under the circumstances. Now, on page 12, you are alluding to deep emotional wounds that you can't accept.

Perhaps you should detail your situation enough to explain your problem at least. Too late to worry about it turning too long. We are already on page 12 and only discovering things now. Perhaps enough detail will help. How did your wife deal with your affair when you gave her control? In what manner was it abusive? What emotional wounds did she cause knowing your weak points and triggers?

 

[Spork]

I suspected that there had been turbulence with your wife that seemed manipulative/abusive before, and I suspect also that you have been manipulative/abusive to her before (emotionally) whether you wish to realize this or not. Sometimes partners abuse one another. I get the feeling that a rather significant portion of the appeal you get with your GF, is the fact that she "takes your side" to some degree, by that I don't mean "calling wife a bitch" I mean that she has offered you support, she probably validates that wife is controlling and childish, and that you are mostly victim and not a bad guy. You are sensitive to feeling like the bad guy (are you an Aries?) and so you love, love, love the validation that you are not bad or wrong in all this, and that hey...others can bear some of the guilt, too.

OK.

I do think your wife's behavior is controlling. But again, that is because of FEAR that is well justified. She is sitting in a corner rocking back and forth, eyes screwed shut and hands over ears, yelling "LALALALALA NONE OF THIS IS HAPPENING EVERYTHING IS FINE BECAUSE I SAY IT IS!" and she is not facing the reality of her position. Now...I can't blame her, because her position is SCARY. But if she doesn't face it and put some work into mitigating the scary stuff, it's gonna get worse before it gets better.

So where do you go from here?

Well, you need to work something out with your wife. It is priority number one that you two stabilize her shaking foundations enough to actually talk and make plans and goals. It's got to be priority #1 because you are responsible for your kids, and a chaotic mess of a breakup will screw up their lives, alright? I understand that she is not prepared to talk about getting more independent, but you need to communicate with her (in a letter if need be, whatever means gets THROUGH) that she cannot hold her perfect picket fence picture of life together with sheer force of will.

The FACT is that things are going to change.

She will not get 20 years, or 15 years, or even probably 1 year, of faithful monogamy from you. You have reached a point where that won't be possible, and that is where you stand. You just cannot keep honoring that promise or being that husband. So yes, ultimately, her choices will be take it or leave it. BUT!!! Slow down the timeline on that. How to be kind and loving and considerate?

1. Reassure the heck out of her. Yes, you have these needs now. No, that does not mean that you have in any way stopped loving her. You're very sorry that you have hit her with this, in this way, and for the hardship it's creating in the life she thought was safe and stable. You will help and support her in any way that is reasonable as you transition to either a new marriage of a different shape, or a divorce. You WILL NOT just cast her out to sink or swim.

And you keep reassuring her, until she damn well believes it. If that takes weeks, you do that. But you stand your ground on the point that change is in the air and while you want to help and support her in coming to terms with it however she needs to...you won't live in denial of it. It's real and it's happening.

2. You help her come up with some plans. A "Plan A" and a "Plan B" and a "Plan C." You start building some roadmaps of what is possible and what is not.

3. You follow through. If you make a commitment to her in good faith, you honor it. You no longer make promises to her that you aren't likely to keep.

So if all this means that you "separate" but be like roommates in the house until she is ready to be strong on her own, or has found a new nesting partner she wants to build a life with...if it means that you help pay for her to get more education or whatever, then fine. That's what it means. She has to reevaluate her whole life plan now, and it might take time, you have to be patient...but not endlessly patient forever...while she does this. So you set small goals. I like the whole idea of coming together periodically to review things.

I often think of relationships like if you have ever seen a show such as what we have in America, "Pawn Stars" that features haggling and negotiation. You negotiate things. And each person has limits. If you have brought an item to sell and you absolutely won't go below a certain price, then if the other person cannot meet your price, you can always walk away from the negotiation table. So you have stated emphatically that you won't give up your GF. Well *sigh*...let's be honest. At this point, even if you did, so much of the damage is already done. And I doubt that you are able to go to 100% faithful mono marriage for the duration even until the kids are grown, now. So where you have a hard line is, "I am a poly dude. You will have to figure out how to deal with that." Now, she can't flip a switch and be all sunshine and compersion, that's absurd...but she does need to step out of the corner, open her eyes, and take her hands off her ears, and see reality and start learning how to cope.

What she wants, whether it is 20 years of no contact with GF, or the rights to micromanage rules around your poly relationships in the future, is unreasonable. Let's call that her starting point in the negotiation. You have demanded $1,000 for the Thing and she's come back with the ridiculous offer of $5.

Now the work of negotiation begins.

I hope that you can make a deal.

 

[Hannahfluke]

Remnant, you asked for suggestions on what to do so that your wife doesn't feel trapped in your marriage because of financial dependence, in a way that wouldn't feel like you were setting her up so that you can leave (i.e. your reference to her feelings regarding schooling). If you can financially and don't already, I'd suggest setting up a savings account for each of you and putting money into the savings accounts every month. That money belongs to each individual and they can do whatever they want with it, no questions asked. My husband and I have had our own spending money for years, longer than we've been poly. When we opened our marriage, I felt less jealous of the money he was spending on his girlfriend, because it was his spending money and not coming from our family budget. I would have been angry if we only had family money and he was spending it on trips with her or on taking her out to dinner. I have mostly saved my spending money the last few years and I can tell you that having a fairly large amount of money in the bank that is mine goes a long way towards making it so I don't feel financially trapped in my marriage (my husband makes about 2 1/2 times the amount I do). I think making it so it's something that you both have can go a long way towards it not feeling like you're only doing it so you can eventually leave. Just an idea for one way to remove some of the alligators, to use Emm's analogy.