Reasonable rules?

[Ravenscroft]

I don't think it is a universal definition.

Call it a dialect: it's not how YOU naturally speak, but it's how the terms are used around here.

I don't totally agree either, BUT it works just fine & argument would be fruitless at best, just as many people (IMNSHO) have "jealousy" & "envy" completely ass-backward... but so long as everyone in the vicinity uses it in ONE consistent manner, conversation may proceed without constantly needing to stop & go into some long-winded definition.

 

[vinsanity0]

I haven't had a 10:00 curfew since grade school. That would be a no go for me. I don't usually even go out until around 10...lol. Also, the screens off after 9 thing is just weird to me.

Specifying certain days is more of a scheduling thing than anything else. But the whole needing to know the whole schedule a week in advance seems very controlling, considering they have two ironclad days already.

BTW, I'm not a big fan of rules so take my comments with that in mind.

 

[Emm]

It may not be a universal definition, but try googling "personal boundaries" and you'll see that it's the commonly used one.

 

[Tinwen]

Also, the screens off after 9 thing is just weird to me.

That's common recommendation for insomnia. "Go to bed at the same time every day and turn off all screens two hours before bedtime." It's because computers have a way to keep you alert and tense. I infer they switch off the lights at 11.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

"Personal boundaries. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Jump to: navigation, search. Personal boundaries are guidelines, rules or limits that a person creates to identify reasonable, safe and permissible ways for other people to behave towards them and how they will respond when someone passes those limits." From google.

So from this definition, I could quite easily say that my rule is no seeing me on Sundays. A couple could say their rule is no coming home after ten. That's the standards they have for interaction with each other and others. Their boundaries are maintained by set rules.

I don't actually mind how people refer to them myself. I'm far more interested in differentiating between red flags and incompatible features. I do understand that within this forum you have a common definition but unless everyone that members date also use this forum and the common language, you may make judgements about people which are false. You could assume that a person is compatible because they say "boundaries" when in fact they are what you'd call "rules" directed by their partner and what you're trying to avoid. I find it better to ask about how these rules or boundaries came into play and why. That way I can have a more accurate idea of whether the way they "poly" works for me.

 

[Emm]

"Personal boundaries are guidelines, rules or limits that a person creates to identify reasonable, safe and permissible ways for other people to behave towards them and how they will respond when someone passes those limits." From google.

Read it again. A boundary is about defining what you will put up with and how you will act when someone crosses your line. You may choose to institute a rule in an attempt to ensure that people don't cross that line, but that is a separate thing from the boundary you have created for yourself.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Read it again. A boundary is about defining what you will put up with and how you will act when someone crosses your line. You may choose to institute a rule in an attempt to ensure that people don't cross that line, but that is a separate thing from the boundary you have created for yourself.

It literally says a personal boundary is a rule. That's how it starts. It does go onto say that it is to establish permissible ways for people to behave towards them, which to me, is the crux of the matter.

But, seeing how people do not distinguish between boundaries and rules as is the norm on this forum, how does telling someone that they are wrong about the definition solve the issue of separating "good" and "bad" poly? It's not as if people will automatically stop setting rules or boundaries for other people inappropriately just because they change what they call it. They have to understand and agree that it is a negative way to interact. I think insisting that people use your language is a waste of energy and it would be more effective to explain what you think is wrong with one partner setting rules or boundaries which controls others. Again, I see that completely differently to a couple deciding their relationship works best if they set a curfew rule.

 

[Emm]

People will often read or be told that setting boundaries is a good and healthy thing to do. If there's no distinction made between rules and boundaries they will then turn around and set rules for everyone in sight, thinking that they are behaving in a good and healthy way because they don't know what the difference is. Using the correct term where they first encounter it means that they will instead learn to set boundaries; saving themselves and everyone involved with them from a great deal of probable pain.

Edit: Yes, since you seem to be hung up on a single word in the definition you quoted, a personal boundary is a rule that governs how you react when someone treats you badly, and the only person the rule applies to is the person who makes it. It doesn't try to control the other person, only your response to having your boundary trampled.

 

[Ravenscroft]

Yes, total agreement with Emm here.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

People will often read or be told that setting boundaries is a good and healthy thing to do. If there's no distinction made between rules and boundaries they will then turn around and set rules for everyone in sight, thinking that they are behaving in a good and healthy way because they don't know what the difference is. Using the correct term where they first encounter it means that they will instead learn to set boundaries; saving themselves and everyone involved with them from a great deal of probable pain.

Edit: Yes, since you seem to be hung up on a single word in the definition you quoted, a personal boundary is a rule that governs how you react when someone treats you badly, and the only person the rule applies to is the person who makes it. It doesn't try to control the other person, only your response to having your boundary trampled.

I actually resent being told I'm "hung up" on this when I'm the one saying that people use the terms differently and often interchangeably and it's actually how you apply the principle that is important. I've experienced people telling me that it's their "boundary" that I don't have oral sex with our hinge partner. That to me is a problem when they are dictating what we can and can't do in our sex life. Especially since she had a problem with oral sex but agreed to barrier free intercourse. It was clearly about limiting intimacy. But insisting my ex metamour called it a rule because it is inappropriate wouldn't have made her see the issue with attempting to have that control. What needed to happen is that she understood the distinction between setting standards for herself and controlling the interactions of others. Sure you can call the "good" way boundaries and the "bad" way rules but it does not guarantee that every non monogamous person will use the terms in that way too. This is why I think attempting to call one word correct and the other incorrect is fruitless.

 

[Emm]

You say that changing the terminology wouldn't have made her see the problem with attempting to control your actions, but if she had encountered the correct definitions it quite possibly would have. No doubt she was under the impression that calling it a boundary made it a good thing that everyone should unquestioningly obey.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

You say that changing the terminology wouldn't have made her see the problem with attempting to control your actions, but if she had encountered the correct definitions it quite possibly would have. No doubt she was under the impression that calling it a boundary made it a good thing that everyone should unquestioningly obey.

I don't think they are correct or universal definitions. I accept it is how you commonly used them here but within my own poly circles, we make no such distinction in terminology although we discuss the subject and the difference between the "good" way and "bad" way often. My ex metamour could have called them poopynuts and strawdingers and still have a working understanding of the difference. I really think the word used is irrelevant. It is true that by process of discussing the definitions as you all use them on this site may have helped her to distinguish the difference but the same can be achieved through discussion.

 

[Emm]

"Walk" and "drive" are two words that can be used to describe how someone gets from one place to another, but that doesn't mean they are interchangeable. The words have definitions, which means they can be used to usefully communicate. If you're just going to make up your own meanings then you might as well start talking about poopynutting your strawdinger to the scrinson for an englebite. At that point you are no longer communicating.

 

[Ravenscroft]

attempting to call one word correct and the other incorrect is fruitless.

No; I have to back Emm here unequivocally.

The statement is rather damn clear:

a personal boundary is a rule that governs how you react when someone treats you badly

the only person the rule applies to is the person who makes it.

It doesn't try to control the other person, only your response to having your boundary trampled.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

No; I have to back Emm here unequivocally.

The statement is rather damn clear:

I agree that Emm's definition of the terms is clear but that doesn't make it a universal definition. I don't think that's how people generally use the terms with such rigid parameters. And I think it's generally more helpful to understand how others might be using terms (and why) than insisting that your interpretation is correct, theirs is incorrect, and that they must use yours. When it isn't in line with personal experiences, it can create a chasm in interaction that is wholly unnecessary. For instance, in this discussion, we both agree about what are "bad" rules/boundaries and what are "good" rules/boundaries, if I was to get caught up on the fact people are repeatedly telling me that my terms are invalid, or I kept insisting that it is wrong to call the "good" kind boundaries, it could stifle what could be a productive conversation and it could feel rather isolating for me.

 

[Emm]

Try reading a few sites beyond wikipedia and you'll see that it's the correct use of the term, even if not every English-speaking person on the planet uses it.

Here are the top 3 non-wiki results in google for "personal boundaries" for you to start with:

4 Ways to Set and Keep Your Personal Boundaries

Boundaries can be defined as the limits we set with other people, which indicate what we find acceptable and unacceptable in their behavior towards us.

Healthy Personal Boundaries & How to Establish Them

Personal boundaries are the physical, emotional and mental limits we establish to protect ourselves from being manipulated, used, or violated by others.

What Are Personal Boundaries? How Do I Get Some?

Love can’t exist without boundaries, even with your children. It’s easy to understand external boundaries as your bottom line. Think of rules and principles you live by when you say what you will or won’t do or allow.

In the first 5 non-wiki sites the search listed, the word "rule" appears twice; once as shown above in the third quote, and once at the bottom of the page of the 5th result as a "house rules" link in amongst the terms of use and other associated housekeeping. You'll note that where it appears in the article it is used to describe the conditions you impose on yourself, not those you impose on others.

You and your immediate circle may be unfamiliar with it, but that doesn't mean you're right and everyone else is wrong.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

I think what you're misunderstanding here is that I'm not disputing that boundary is appropriate terminology in that context, I just don't see the big deal with using "rule" instead nor do I think what terminology one uses is a foolproof way of determining whether or metamour or partner is unreasonably controlling. So for that reason, I find the debate arbitrary.

Why is it so important to you that people not only agree with your principles, but also use the same language as you? I personally find the former more important than the latter when I'm interacting with someone. It may be because I've had partners who don't speak English as a native language so getting frustrated about such things would have been a colossal waste of energy. For example, they might not have had a word that means boundary but is related to rules rather than a physical marker of territory.

 

[Emm]

I explained earlier why I believe correct usage—here, on this website in particular—is important, but here it is again:

People will often read or be told that setting boundaries is a good and healthy thing to do. If there's no distinction made between rules and boundaries they will then turn around and set rules for everyone in sight, thinking that they are behaving in a good and healthy way because they don't know what the difference is. Using the correct term where they first encounter it means that they will instead learn to set boundaries; saving themselves and everyone involved with them from a great deal of probable pain.

You even gave an example in reply showing what can happen when someone thinks slapping a "Boundary!" label on a rule means it's more legitimate than calling it what it is.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Just to be clear, my perception of the “rules” is that they are mutually agreed-upon arrangements in their marriage rather than attempts to restrict one another’s relationships. I know that both of them struggle with insomnia, so I think that the screens off by 9/Home by 10 stuff is related to that.

I think that this clears up whether this is bad poly" or potential incompatibility. The couple made agreements that MsEmotional and perhaps the couple refer to as rules. Their relationship, their language.

 

[Emm]

Am I now going to have to provide examples showing that an agreement isn't a boundary, or are you willing to concede that without a dictionary?