12 things

C

copperhead

New member
I thought I'd start a blog of sorts. I have random thoughts running through my head so I thought lists might help. Feel free to comment :)

12 things I've learned about polyamory:

1. Trust is essential. As is being trustworthy.
2. I'm polyamorous by nature.
3. It's hard to open an existing relationship.
4. I wanted to have an anchor in my partner so that I could safely explore polyamory.
5. It's easy to be in love with many people at the same time.
6. I want intimate firendship.
7. I still don't want to live with anyone (apart from my children). I don't want to get married nor have more kids.
8. I want to have people in my life who are interested in knowing my children and to whom it is easy to get along with children, or who'd be willing to help me with everyday life stuff. I'm not looking for a father for them. It's enough to be a responsible adult.
9. I need to take things slowly.
10. I'm not comfortable with someone who thinks it's essential to have sex with new people right away.
11. I need to learn more about STDs and STIs to better judge what risks I'm willing to take.
12. I need to start talking about my relationships more openly, because love makes me blind and it's good to hear what other people think is going on.
 
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great list...
 
Before the breakup I felt that one thing that made the transition difficult for me was how difficult it is for me to meet new people, make friends and keep friends. I felt I needed to work on this to be able to be in an open/polyamorous relationship. On the other hand… the lack of solitude created problems too. And I still need to think about these things.

12 things on loneliness and solitude (and friendship):
1. I need solitude. I have to make time for myself no matter how much in love I am.
2. Sometimes I feel so lonely it physically hurts.
3. A romantic relationship doesn't alleviate solitude, but it makes it easier to bear.
4. Having friends makes it easy (easier) to not have a romantic relationship.
5. I have a hard time experiencing friendship even when I can reason there is one (or many) in my life.
6. Touch is essential for me to experience friendship.
7. If I'm not in touch with my friends I stop feeling the friendship.
8. When I'm alone, I am me.
9. It's hard to stay me when with other people. I'm not someone else, I just stop being me. I become empty and feel lonely.
10. Loneliness is hardest to bear among people whom I wish I could experience friendship with.
11. I enjoy doing my things alone.
12. Cuddleparties help me connect with people.
 
To fight off the anxiety, stress and melancholy these past weeks have caused me, I think I need to list positive things this whole thing has taught me.

1. I know I have friends.
2. I'm finally able to talk about anything with anyone.
3. I don't need to worry about people finding out I'm polyamorous. They know, and they don't care.
4. I have a lovefriend I can count on.
5. I'm strong.
6. I know my limits/boundaries and I'm better at protecting myself than I thought I'd be.
(Damn... this is a difficult list to make…)
7. Even now, I'm happy with my life.
8. I know that I've learned to recognize some red flags (didn't repeat some old mistakes) and I've identified some new ones.
9. I had my priorities right during a crisis. I took care of myself first and I've been able to take care of my kids these past few days.
10. I am true to myself.
11. I feel there are many kinds of polyamorous relationships that could work for me.
12. I now know what is the difference between a romantic relationship and a friendship. (I've tried to figure it out for years.)

Edit. Changed the last one as I remembered a really important thing and the last one was just a filler anyway.
 
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12 things on secondary/primary relationships. More questions this time it seems and less statements. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.

1. It seems I need both levels of relationship commitment.
2. Primary to me would mean that there is someone I'm willing to share my life with and who is willing to share their life with me. It's about the little everyday stuff.
3. Secondary means intimate friendship.
4. Primary relationship is about making an agreement on what kind of relationship it is. How we share our lives with each other.
5. I need to figure out what "being my own primary" means to me.
6. I'm looking for a primary relationship with someone new, and it is too soon. Am I afraid to be alone? I never used to be.
7. It seems I have two or three secondary type relationships beginning at the same time. Why now? Can I really handle this?
8. Having these intimate friendships helps me move on and cope with my feelings after the breakup, but I need to be honest about it with everyone. I don't want to use anyone.
9. I think I'm tired of being alone, not afraid. I want what was good in my last relationship to still be a part of my life. I need to mourn.
10. Being someones secondary feels good and sort of simple. It is what I've been missing my whole life. A transition between a relationship and a friendship.
11. When I think of these intimate friendships (seondary type relationships) I feel no jealousy over their OSOs. I'm just thankful for having a place in their lives.
12. I wonder if it depends on the person whether it's better to have a primary or a secondary type of relationship instead of how many and what kind of relationships anyone is already involved with.
 
What I do is look at what pre existing commitments me and the other person have as well as our general compatibility. From this I know of i could ever share practical entanglements with this person. Ie whether we could have a primary style relationship or not.

If we aren't compatible for that, I have some idea how to go about this relationship in a way that still allows me the resources to find a primary style relationship. I do not allow certain expectations to develop on either side.

There are some people who I can't immediately rule out and this troubled me for some time. I wasn't sure how to proceed in a way that wouldn't be at significant risk of complication. What I do now is "go with the flow", learning more about them and more about our long term desires. This often sorts out who is a potential primary partner and who isn't. Sometimes, over time, you realise they are ideal as a primary partner.

People often say that this over thinking is detrimental to relationships but I know it works for me. I don't burden the other person with all this box checking and filing into drawers, it just helps me manage my relationships in a way that prevents them causing me anxiety, I guess. I think it's helpful in terms of preventing yourself from getting into relationships where there is a discord between what one can offer and what one can give.
 
London, exactly. That was what I was thinking about. A couple of years ago when I was single I met one person I fell in love with, but due to many reasons I realized a primary relationship would never work. I was afraid to pursue anything before I had a primary type relationship (and then I hesitated, because I wasn't sure if he was polyamorous…). Now we are very close friends and we have an agreement on what either one of us can give or wants and needs.

I suppose your way of letting time show with some people is also a good idea. Right now I don't have such people in my life, but I'll certainly keep this in mind.

And I tend to overthink everything, too. Others think it's a character flaw or something, but I really need to do it to work my way through the chaos of life.
 
12 things on neediness:

Truth is, I wasn't exactly happy with Salamander in the last months. We'd gotten stuck in seeing each other a lot more than neither one was comfortable with. This happened because we liked each others company so much and were unable to say that we'd take time for ourselves. For a lot of reasons I've been thinking about this and how it might be rooted in neediness of some sort. So here is a list on neediness.


1. Aspie mindset can create needy behavior without being based on neediness. I've gone through enough questionnaires to know this. My motives often aren't needy, but my behaviour is.
2. It's possible to be a needy aspie. And sometimes my motives are needy.
3. I express needy behavior when I'm in a relationship. I think this is an echo from the time I really was (noticeably) needy. I don't like this behavior.
4. My process is incomplete. It's hard to act (be) non-needy when someone treats me like I'm unable to take care of myself or meet my own needs. It's lot easier to let others take care of me, but then I let them reinforce my neediness.
5. Honesty and openness have really helped me. Talking honestly about my needs and wants, fears and shortcomings have made those feel smaller. I'm a lot less needy that I used to be. I'm also capable of dealing with my neediness in a constructive way.
6. I often feel strong and capable. I need to remember this feeling also when I don't feel it.
7. I've found that fake it 'till you make it is a good advice to work on neediness and needy behavior. It's gotten me further than I've realized before.
8. I'm actually an extrovert (thouhg I've always thought differently) and being with people is a real need for me. At the same time I lack the skills to connect and interact with people in a satisfying way which causes neediness. I've learned a lot of these skills and being open about my aspie traits has helped others to understand me better and helped me feel (act) less needy.
9. Being in a needy relationship (both of us acting needy) eats away my energy and causes me to neglect important things in my life (like my own needs). I need to learn to recognise warning sings of such relationship and have an action plan in case I end up in one (again).
10. I want to make a list of my needs and how to get them met. I can use this list to evaluate whether I'm neglecting myself or not.
11. I also need to do a list of my fears, because neediness is based on fears and i don't really recognize any right away.
12. Just read a discussion about how neediness and AS connect and I'm convinced this applies to me too. The solution? More cuddleparties. And a way to make those important to me to honestly express the reasons for taking distance (my needy behavior is stressing them/they are otherwise busy). Uncertainty is killing me and really makes me needy even when i wasn't before.

After writing this list I also realized that at some point when trying to cope with the break up I actually told someone that I appreciate their help, but would like to spend the night alone in order to see that I can do it no matter how hard it would be. I needed to be sure I was able to do it. So that was very much non-needy, I think :)
 
12 things I'm going to ask Salamander today. In random order.

1. Why did you keep me waiting for these answers? And what have you done/what are you going to do to make the things better?
2. Were you surprised I dumped you on the spot?
3. Did you consider the promises you had made to me before cheating?
4. Was it worth it?
5. Why did you bother to lie about having had sex with Blossom when you knew I was ok with it?
6. Who else has there been besides Blossom and Sunflower?
7. How could you support me for two weeks when I was trying to cope with the changing situation, when you knew that all I went through was worth nothing and that our relationship was already over? And how could you say that we'd still be together when old?
8. Why did you reveal that I'm poly to hundreds of people at a time when I wasn't even sure myself? Why did you say to me that you'd only discussed poly theoretically and no-one knew about me.
9. Have you told people honestly wy I left you? What about that friend who gave you advice during those last two weeks? Did she know the whole situation?
10. Why did you say that you like kids and that you want to be important to my kids, when it's clear that neither was the truth?
11. Why did you say that there's no real need for tests as we haven't had sex with others?
12. Why did you make Sunflower a liar too?
 
Questions 7 and 10 are loaded questions and won't be conducive to getting the truth.

Sometimes, I use them as a tool to making the other person feel fucking awful about what they've done. Point scoring. However, other times I genuinely need closure so getting the truth is vital for me getting over the events. I have to make it as easy as possible for them to be truthful.

If you want to do some point scoring, fair dos, but if your goal is getting closure for yourself, I'd reword those two questions, at least.
 
Good point. I just came home from having the talk. I can't really remember how I phrased those. But really! Only two loaded questions \o/ I felt quite aggressive myself, so I think that was an achievement in itself.

The biggest thing I got from the conversation is that he keeps making mistakes in the hopes that previous mistakes would then magically be ok. He really didn't think about our agreements or his promises or that he'd lose me. And that he doesn't have any reasons for the stupidest and most blatant lies he told me (7 and 11).

He actually thought that breaking our agreement would be ok, if his relationship with Sunflower would progress and enough time would pass. That then he coould confess and it wouldn't have mattered to me. (That was the answer to seven. That's why he let it go on and kept on lying.)

No proper answer for number 10.
 
And this just hit me today. It took me a week to actually process what Salamander had told me. I made a list… just to make sure, I won't forget this thing.

1. I ended up in an abusive relationship again. I need to find ways to stop it from happening in the future. I need to learn to recognize the signs and take actions in case I see red flags in future relationships.
2.I ended up in an abusive relationship again. I need to find ways to stop it from happening in the future. I need to learn to recognize the signs and take actions in case I see red flags in future relationships.
3. I ended up in an abusive relationship again. I need to find ways to stop it from happening in the future. I need to learn to recognize the signs and take actions in case I see red flags in future relationships.
4. I ended up in an abusive relationship again. I need to find ways to stop it from happening in the future. I need to learn to recognize the signs and take actions in case I see red flags in future relationships.
5. I ended up in an abusive relationship again. I need to find ways to stop it from happening in the future. I need to learn to recognize the signs and take actions in case I see red flags in future relationships.
6. I ended up in an abusive relationship again. I need to find ways to stop it from happening in the future. I need to learn to recognize the signs and take actions in case I see red flags in future relationships.
7. I ended up in an abusive relationship again. I need to find ways to stop it from happening in the future. I need to learn to recognize the signs and take actions in case I see red flags in future relationships.
8. I ended up in an abusive relationship again. I need to find ways to stop it from happening in the future. I need to learn to recognize the signs and take actions in case I see red flags in future relationships.
9. I ended up in an abusive relationship again. I need to find ways to stop it from happening in the future. I need to learn to recognize the signs and take actions in case I see red flags in future relationships.
10. I ended up in an abusive relationship again. I need to find ways to stop it from happening in the future. I need to learn to recognize the signs and take actions in case I see red flags in future relationships.
11. I ended up in an abusive relationship again. I need to find ways to stop it from happening in the future. I need to learn to recognize the signs and take actions in case I see red flags in future relationships.
12. I ended up in an abusive relationship again. I need to find ways to stop it from happening in the future. I need to learn to recognize the signs and take actions in case I see red flags in future relationships.
 
No list this time. I'm just stuck thinking about his answer to question number seven. I wrote somewhere that I felt like a was a victim of emotional abuse, but couldn't figure out what that abuse was. I concluded that it wasn't happening or that it was me pushing myself too hard while trying to cope with the change and the new situation. But the truth is, his actions were emotionally abusive and I sensed it somehow.

I keep going back to what happened thinking that I knew. The moment he'd cheated on me. The first words he said to me after they'd had sex was "We are a couple now". (Propably the only true words he said to me for a long time…) And that got me confused already as we had discussed that neither one of us was really looking for another primary type relationship nor really wanted one. So how did he end up being a couple with someone? That was my confusion and he explained that he used wrong words out of confusion. That he meant to say that he'd like to see where things would go with Sunflower. And so my struggle began, because I believed him.

I was already confused and shaken, but tried to put that behind me and focus on what was really happening and on the future. But it was hard, because in my mind I kept coming back to him saying that they are a couple. This was finally the reason why I said that I need a break that I'm not strong enough to process everything. I need us to take a step back and talk about stuff we want and need and what we have learned so far. I felt somehow that he was saying one thing to me and another to Sunflower, and maybe he was. He kept changing his story of that night. How they'd just talked about poly and stuff… to how they also kissed… to oh and we had sex.

During those two weeks I kept going back to the original poly-discussion we had. Veryfying time and again that what we had agreed still held. That he hadn't changed his mind about things. And he said that he still thinks like that. And he kept pressuring me to say it would be okay for them to sleep in the same bed, while at the same time he kept saying that I can have all the time I need to process stuff, and he repeated time after time that Sunflower needs to know what to expect, and every time he put pressure on me I felt worse and those words that came out of the blue hit me again and again. I really didn't trust him anymore, but I was too stressed out to even realize that, I just kept trying, because I had made a promise to try.

I was angry at him for making me break up with him. That I had to actually demonstrate that my word holds. That mine is not like his that can change at any time. He said afterwards that he didn't realize, that he just has to learn by mistakes. That now his done this mistake and wouldn' do it again. He actually said this, even though he had already made the mistake of cheating on a girlfriend before. Apparently this was "a different situation". So there is nothing to trust in him. Because every situation could be seen as a new one. That if cheating on a girlfriend is different from cheating on a girlfriend then there's no end to it. The new situation is always different from the old ones. But I didn't give in. Not even during the first week after the breakup, when I felt the pain of being alone.

Now I feel okay about being alone, but I still feel really horrible right now. Knowing that he pushed me into accepting this relationship. That his motive was to trick me into accepting Sunflower and the sex they had. That he really tried to get me to break my promise to myself (to stay strong and leave him if he'd cheat on me). That he did all this just to manipulate me. And I blamed myself all that time… for not being good enough at poly. For being the difficult one. That I let myself get into an abusive relationship again. That's the hardest thing for me to live with.

I really feel like throwing up because of all this.

Someone said to write this stuff put, that it would make me feel better, but so far… I still feel crap.
 
Just for future reference, many people in what most would term a secondary style relationship think of themselves as a couple. I wouldn't get particularly caught up on that word, alone.
 
Mm, true, london :) My regular guest. But it is just the way we talked about it. That we both stated a wish to have intimate friendships. To be able to express full range of emotions to friends who are open to it. He specifically said he didn't want another girlfriend. But maybe it was an honest mix up with words :p He wasn't very consistent and kept using words in a close enough fashion when it would have been important to say what you mean and mean what you say. Which is why I repeatedly returned to our first conversation and said: this is what I heard you say, is it what you meant, do you still think so? And stated what I had said and that I still stood behind my words.

I would like to move on (I have no-one to say that it's time to get over it already), I'm tired of processing these things. I'm not sure if it's doing any good to me. Today I feel like I'd want to be able to travel back in time and look at all the signs I missed. Like I could set things right that way, avoid this mess. But I don't think I did anything wrong, so I don't see how I could make anything right either. The only thing I could change is that I should have stated a clear time frame for a talk (how I'm progressing). But even that wouldn't have helped here, since Salamander had already broken his promise and my trust. Well, there is the other thing, which is not break up over this… But that would mean compromising my own boundaries, and that is something I've promised to myself I wouldn't do. So couldn't do that either.

It's so hard to move on. I keep looking at OKC and finding out that there just isn't the kind of people I'm looking for. Finding out I'm polyamorous only made things more difficult :p Although it also made things easier as I'm connecting with some people I wouldn't be able to connect otherwise. But they are all married… so it fills my need for this type of connection but not the primary type. I try not to come of as too needy, because then I would just loose everything. And I respect them and their spuses too much to even want more than I could get.
 
Honesty.

I'm enjoying reading your writing, and identify with some of your self reflection. I also really like the lists - I am a huge list maker in my life too.
 
I can actually empathise with that.

When me and my partner had what I now refer to as "The Troubles", we spoke about resources (time, money, energy, libido) and how we were both in a position where we don't have enough resources to maintain more than one relationship at the level we are at. We don't live together or share practical entanglements but we are very much committed to our relationship, see each other a few times a week and love each other dearly.

He met someone new and long story short, got blown away with NRE. There were lots of different aspects to that whole thing but part of it was him reassuring me that she only wanted something casual and that he wasn't building up a level of expectation that he wouldn't be able to fulfil without taking from us. That wasn't the case though. He was already taking from us (something he realised later which ultimately resulted in them parting ways) and despite what she said, she didn't want casual and they had already bypassed casual anyway.

Throughout "The Troubles", I went on and on (in that special autistic way) about how labels mean things. How words mean things. How (very often but definitely with her) using words like "boyfriend" to describe your relationship with someone comes with a level of expectation that, by his own admission, he can't maintain with more than one person, right now. How "casual" has boundaries. How they have exceeded those boundaries and how that's a problem because his lack of resources means this is impinging on us. On me.

Anyway, he kind of sees my point now.
 
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Hi CherryBlossomGirl, nice to meet you :)

london: yes, words mean things! Why on earth would we use them if they didn't. The difficult part is to figure out what each word means to each individual. But I feel it is important to have some sort of understanding what the other person says when using a word. This is something we didn't realize with Salamander… that even such words like a crush could mean very different things to different people. So if you make an agreement based on a word crush, you will have to make sure that everyone knows what a crush is in this agreement.

Now for my new list, about dealbrakers and such things. The only reason I got out of the relationship with Salamander when I did was that I had a rule for myself to leave in case of cheating. When Salamander confessed, I went on autopilot, but I followed my rule. If there wouldn't have been a rule to follow I would have stayed for conversations and explanations and tried... and suffered more.

So I need rules for myself. I do wonder if there were warning signs I repeatedly ignored. No-one turns abusive and manipulative overnight. So a list… This one is a work in progress, and I hope to be able to eventyally compress it to a maximum of three items (so that I can actually remember it). Also feel free to comment and help me come up with a better list. DId I forget something universally essential?

12 things that are dealbrakers (DB), red flags (RF) or other warning signs (WS) for me.
- dealbreaker: I will not start a relationship with this person. Or I will not stay in a relationship to see if things might change with discussion or trying.
- Red Flag: The issue will be discussed. Repeated (3–5 times) behavior will be a dealbreaker.
- Warning Sign: The issue will be discussed. Repeated (3–5 times) behavior will be a red flag.

1. Lying about the relationship or what kind of person one is. (DB) Habitual lying about other things. (DB). Occasional lie. (WS)
2. Drugs, alcoholism, excess use of alcohol. (DB)
3. Physical abuse, threaths. (DB)
4. Breaking major promises (DB), repeatedly breaking smaller promises without good reason. (RF/DB), Breaking my trust or confidences or cheating. (DB)
5. Repeatedly ignoring me because chatting with others online when it's our time, but not answering my messages when not with me, because didn't notice. (RF)
6. Avoiding or sugarcoating difficult subjects instead of just telling me the hard truth. (WS)
7. Symbiotic behaviour. (DB) Co-dependent behaviour. (DB) Making agreements against ones true needs and wants. (RF)
8. Difficulties (WS) or refusal (DB) to communicate and share ones thoughts, feelings and experiences openly and honestly. Not knowing oneself. (RF)
9. Minimizing, mind games and other forms of emotional abuse (DB)
10. Disrespect toward me or my friends and family. (DB) Not wanting to know my family and friends. (WS) Wanting to keep me separate from other people in ones life. (RF)
11. Wanting the relationship to be kept a secret to the closest people. (DB)
12. Lack of empathy and understanding towards my asperger traits. (RF) Not wating to learn and understand (DB)

So what I expect in a relationship: openness, honesty, respect, independence and empathy. I hope I can give these things too. At least I do my best.

And looking back at my list… There were so many warning signs, even deal brakers that I just let slip. Salamander lied about major things and habitually about smaller things. He broke major promises and also habitually broke smaller ones without a good reason. He broke my trust and repeatedly broke my confidences (but managed to explain things so that I didn't realize it until just now). He cheated, twice. He made agreements against his true nature (to take things slowly with new people). He wasn't interested in knowing my people and told me he didn't really like them. He was in love with his phone and all that chatting, but didn't really chat with me when with others. And it's clear he had difficulties communicating honestly and openly. He didn't (doesn't) know himself. (He needed me to tell him how he's an opportunist when it comes to sex. Whatever is available, he grabs, even if it's not his cup of tea. --- Yes he agreed with this.)

If I'd had this list last year, it's likely I wouldn't have stayed in that relationship this long. Some of this behavior was present from the very beginning.

(Also I have fever, so I apologize if I don't make much sense.)
 
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This is why having these personal rules is so important! Through "The Troubles", I broke more than one personal rule about what I would tolerate in a relationship, but if I didn't have them, I wouldn't have necessarily realised what the issue was and I couldn't have measured exactly how wrong things were going and been able to feel I have some control over what was going wrong. I could be completely conscious of my choice to stay in a situation I knew was not conducive to my happiness. Thankfully the situation did change, but I had a deadline for staying unhappy. I was planning to stick to that.

Have to have rules.
 
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