Dating advice wanted

L

LateToTheParty

New member
Hi everyone,

My wife Jane and I have been together for over a decade and a half, and are quite new to this lifestyle, about 4 months in, actually. A very brief background-- I've been accepting of the open marriage idea for quite a while, but Jane didn't reach that point until she developed a strong friendship with someone that turned into more intense feelings. We talked it over, said "Let's do this," and here we are. There have been adjustments, for sure, but I'm very happy that she's found a secondary partner (and I really like the guy, on top of that).

Just to be clear, this wasn't a move to fix anything in our marriage. We were perfectly happy beforehand, and now we're even closer.

I currently don't have a significant other. There are a few potential interests out there for me, but I'm mostly interested in a girl named Mary. In fact, when all this came up, she was the first girl I thought about. We've been friends for many years. I met her through one of my close friends, because she was dating him at the time. There have been periods during that time where we haven't seen much of each other, but we always have a great time together. Sometimes it's in a group of friends, but most often, it's just the two of us. We're kind of like movie/concert buddies. She was actually my first "date" after Jane and I decided to jump into this.

Mary is aware of the open relationship that we've entered. She's the first person I discussed it with outside of my marriage. She was surprised and a little confused at first. She's known both of us for so long, and has only known us as a couple. But she passes no judgement at all.

Nothing happened on that first date. We simply went to a movie. She headed home because of an early schedule, and then talked a bit on the phone afterward. However, we went out for a couple of beers last week, and things were a little different.

For whatever reason, I was feeling ultra confident that evening, very open, present, and sure of myself. She and I have always flirted to an extent, but in opposition to me being somewhat reserved about it (like I have been in the past), something inside me sort of melted away that night, and I had this overwhelming sense of "You only live once. I'm going to let her know how I feel. And in addition, I'm kissing her tonight." I felt really good about it all.

So I kicked up my flirtations a couple of notches, throwing out very honest compliments to her. And at the end of the evening, yes, we kissed a little bit. It was wonderful, and I've been riding a bit high since then.

Mary was a little hesitant at first, because the idea is still very new, but it wasn't simply me making the move. She was returning the affection for the (too) brief moment that it was. However, she did say in the middle of it, smiling, "I'm not quite there yet. I mean, you're Jane's husband." I said "I know. I understand. It's totally fine if you're not there right now." After a couple more kisses, she playfully shooed me away and said goodnight.

***

So now the big question is, although I'm riding on a very nice wave, I'm wondering what my next move should be. (I suppose that wasn't really a question, but you know what I mean. :) )

Mary's a busy girl, so she's not the greatest at responding to texts. She simply can't respond by any means while at work. We've sent a few messages about music and whatnot back and forth over the last week, but there hasn't been a ton of contact, which isn't unusual. I'm considering giving her a call this evening and asking her out for tomorrow night. I usually have one free night per week. Is that too soon, after seeing her last week?

I did very much enjoy hearing the "yet" part of "I'm not quite there yet." But I'm conflicted between two things.
1) throwing more out there to show her that I truly care about her, and have for quite a while (not just trying to get laid because I have that license now), or
2) letting it lie a bit so she doesn't feel bombarded, and has time to let such new ideas sink in a bit.

And while I'm going to do something special for Jane on Valentine's Day this week, I also thought I'd at least do something small for Mary. Maybe just a nice message to let her know I thought of her. Too much? Or would that be appreciated and seen as a sweet gesture?

I also realize that she may not have the same feelings, although I'm pretty sure she does, to some extent. If she doesn't, I'll be disappointed, but I've known this is a possibility... and there will be other connections along the way. I really enjoy her company, though.

Forgive me for sounding so high school about it ("Do you like me? Check yes, no, or maybe"), but you know, it's been nearly 20 years since I've thought about pursuing anyone in reality. Hopefully it comes across as cute and innocent, and not pathetic.

I suppose this is really more geared toward the female perspective on this board, but any feedback is welcome. Thanks a bunch. :)
 
I imagine you did whatever you were going to do already, but, asking if a week between dates is too soon? "Typical" mindsets would say that somebody wasn't that interested in you if they waited more than a week between dates.

Calling the night before? I hear you're supposed to turn people down if they call you last minute for dates. ;) Depends on how spontaneous people are, of course.

So if you didn't call, but you're still trying to figure out what to do, I'd say channel that confidence you had last week. Let her know you wanted to ask her out this week, but didn't want her to feel pressured, and that you would like to see her on your next day off, if she is available. I'd imagine it'd be good to keep this date as the same level as the last, if you sense she's still debating what to do here, not try to make it more romantic, or upgrade it to be longer, with dinner and date-ish activity. If she's figuring out stuff, too much change might just spook her.

That said, I have no idea what would work in your particular situation, but hopefully something in there is useful.
 
Thanks, Anne. My friendship with Mary actually does have a history of spontaneity-- agreeing to accompany me to a concert or a movie only hours beforehand, for instance-- so I wasn't too concerned about that. Although maybe next time, I'll try planning a bit more in advance.

I found your post useful, thanks. I did go ahead and call her last night. She didn't pick up, but I left a casual message for her... no yearnings or lovey-dovey stuff, just the same as I'd always sounded. I'm going to let it rest with her now, and wait for her to get back to me before contacting her again. If she's uncomfortable to any degree, I certainly do not want to push it.

I fully agree with your suggestion for the next date, when/if that happens. I had no plans of turning things up, but simply hanging out in the same manner that we usually do, and if something happens, awesome.
 
Oh, and by the way - for whoever reads this - I didn't mean to post this same thing twice. I didn't think the first attempt went through, so I posted it again yesterday afternoon. Whoops.
 
Generally speaking, coming across as derpy when asking someone if they like you back is endearing as fuck.

As for the rest of it, no clue. My best dating advice is to use cinnamon.
 
Ha! Well, maybe I'll bring along a small spice rack on our next date. :)

I did hear back from Mary yesterday. She sent me a text early in the evening. She was in the middle of updating her phone a couple of nights ago when I called, and forgot to get back to me before passing out. Turns out she was hanging with work buddies last night. I replied, saying basically, "No biggie. Have fun tonight. Lemme know if you wanna get together next week."

So, it's not much, but hey, I'm happy that she thought to contact me. :) It seems like, even if she is confused about things, it's not enough to elicit avoiding me for a while.
 
Good luck! Getting back to dating can be super confusing and anxiety-inducing. Sounds like you're doing great so far. It's scary but can definitely be really fun!
 
LateToTheParty said:
Ha.! Well, maybe I'll bring along a small spice rack on our next date.
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It sounds insane, but it works. Sprinkle about a teaspoon of cinnamon in each shoe before a date and your feet won't smell when you take them off. (This may discolor socks, so dark socks are advised.) Also, get your hair wet (or do this after washing your hair pre-date) and shake a plastic bottle of cinnamon, then squeeze it while holding it upright so you get a blast of very fine cinnamon dust. Aim that blast at your wet hair and the dust will cling to it and give it the scent, without being gritty.
 
Well... LateToTheParty's party might be over.

Over the past few days, I've noticed a problem "down there." What started out as looking like a pimple, making me think it was clogged pores, ingrown hair, something, now looks exactly like photos I've seen of herpes.

I got blood drawn at the clinic yesterday. I'm waiting for results. My wife did the same. Her guy and his wife are going to follow suit.

I'm trying my hardest not to go to dark places. I'm really attempting to keep my mind in the present moment, knowing that it could be a number of things, and that I don't yet have solid info. But I'm not doing great with it. I mean... I just started to feel great about myself, about getting myself out there. I was excited about the possibilities with Mary. And now this?? If she's feeling unsure or debating things right now...what is an STD disclosure going to do? I'm afraid she's going to run, as most others will. And I was just starting to develop some genuine feelings for her. Dammit. I feel like I might as well leave her alone now.

A little more background... Jane and her guy haven't used condoms, because he's fixed, and hasn't been with anyone outside his wife in years, never had an issue. And yes, I know they really should have been using them, regardless. I know it doesn't matter ultimately, but he has no symptoms. I had sex with his wife once, over a month ago, and we used a condom. And she has been tested several times over the past few years. She doesn't have symptoms, either.

I'm so discouraged and sad right now. I'm feeling like I've barely dipped my toes into the water of this exciting, wonderful new world, and it's now tainted and going to become more difficult, if not impossible. I've already heard of the hardships that married poly men have with meeting new people (as compared to women's experiences), so to possibly have this, on top of that, is rather devastating.
 
Condoms don't offer much protection from herpes anyway.
 
I hope you don't have anything though.
 
I hope you don't have herpes, but the party isn't necessarily over if you do. Try not to panic. Here is some info I posted in another thread a while back. Follow some of the links to read up on it, if you like:

nycindie said:
No, you're not a bad person!

Herpes can be transmitted when the virus erupts and sheds, which is periodically - usually when the person is stressed. If you come in contact with the actual sore or blister, that's how you get it. When it isn't shedding, it lays dormant in the spinal column. So you can have sex with someone who has herpes and isn't shedding without worry. But you can get it if they are shedding and the eruption site is outside of the condom-protected area AND you come into contact with it. Most folks who are aware they have herpes say they know when an eruption is about to happen - they can feel some itching beforehand - but asymptomatic shedding can also occur. I've also heard that most people with herpes don't know they have it. So, you can play it as safe as you can, but there are always risks to get something from someone.

The medications for herpes suppress the viral shedding by "fooling" it with a substance (I think an amino acid, not sure) that connects to it and which it needs -- this prevents eruption, which is pretty much like not having herpes at all. It's also good to support the immune system with herbal supplements, which help when the body is stressed. Some people are very relaxed about herpes, and consider it nothing more than a "pesky skin condition," while others totally freak out about it probably because it's associated with sex. Chicken pox and shingles are forms of herpes also. The Herpes virus can be killed with soap and water, if you wash before infection takes place. So take a shower after sex - but don't share towels!

One's level of misery with HSV1, known as "oral herpes," or HSV2, known as "genital herpes," probably depends on where the eruption happens. The herpes virus, once lodged in the spine, always takes the same route via the nervous system to the skin's surface and so the outbreak is always in the same spot. So, if you get a little patch on your upper buttocks or thigh, probably no biggie (and easier to avoid or cover up during sex, I think), but if the eruption always happens on the genitals, ouchie! But you can get HSV1 on the genitals and HSV2 on the mouth. I think about 80% of the population has HSV1 anyway, usually by kisses from grandma, and I've heard that somewhere around 50% has HSV2.

Sites to learn more:
http://www.herpesite.org/
www.herpes.com
http://sfcityclinic.org/stdbasics/

For threads here on STIs and safer sex:
Safe Sex - Standards, Practices, Information & Resources
HPV - Shouldn't we talk about it? (there is some talk about herpes in this thread, not just HPV)
fluid bonding/bareback
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Taken from my duplicate entry. :rolleyes: Sorry about that, folks.

I'm far from being the one to give you any advice, but wanted to let you know I'm in a similar boat. I even have a similar question thread over in the Fireplace forum. I feel your uncertainty, as I am feeling the same. I am the world's worst on reading women's feelings about things, and that has bitten me in the butt before and caused some hurt feelings.

That being said, I'm curious as to what has transpired since your initial post. Any dates? Any more conversations? - learninginTN
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Thanks, learninginTN. (I'm from there originally, btw!) Unfortunately, aside from a few texts, no dates or conversations as of yet. I'm hoping to go out with Mary next week, though. I very much want to have that conversation with her, but that's something I'd like to do face to face. Texting just tends to get misconstrued. The phone's a little better, but not ideal.

I keep telling myself that the sparse conversation isn't anything new. It's not as if we have a record of talking all the time. But with what happened on that last date, it seems that the unknown has a little more weight to it. I would really like to sit down with her and say, "I have a question, and trust me, either way you answer is going to be fine, but I don't want to guess. Do you have any interest in taking this beyond our current friendship? If so, I'd love to talk with you about it. If not, it's okay. I simply enjoy my time with you, and would like to continue that."

Being direct in such a way isn't exactly natural to me (or didn't used to be, anyway), but I feel it's the right approach, instead of wasting time analyzing texts, which will most likely be inaccurate. As my therapist told me yesterday, "Gather information. Don't wonder. I can guarantee you that guessing has kept countless romantic relationships from coming to light. Guessing kills."

In other news, NYCindie, thank you for the info. I did get time to read up on some of it.

And unfortunately, it appears that I have it.

While I haven't received my test results yet, the somewhat judgmental doctor didn't order the one test that I was concerned about, so they had to reorder it. My wife tested positive.

This initial outbreak has nearly healed up, by the way. The bitch of it is that there's no way to tell exactly where it came from. I know the timing of events seem to point one way-- with my wife for 18 years, open the marriage, and contract HSV three months later, but it's highly possible that she's had it this entire time. She did get knocked down with the flu a couple of weeks ago, couldn't get out of bed for three days. After she was better, we had sex once or twice. It could be that her immune system was down so low that the virus took over. Or maybe I've had it the whole time. Or her boyfriend. No one knows. No one will ever know.

I'm feeling slightly better about it, but still going through some down spells. My therapist, again to the rescue, told me yesterday that he's had it for who knows how long. He's been lucky to never have had an outbreak, but still... he's got it. And he's never experienced any love interests running from him because of it. He said it's usually the other person that brings it up before he has a chance. He also said that in all his years of working with clients, those who have HSV don't experience many outbreaks at all, which is contrary to the scary "4 to 5 outbreaks a year" that I've read about online. But maybe that's what I get for searching the internet for medical info. :rolleyes:

Anyway... that's my story for now. Thank you all for your input. You're a very helpful bunch. Hopefully I'll have a positive update soon after a next date.
 
LateToTheParty said:
He also said that in all his years of working with clients, those who have HSV don't experience many outbreaks at all...which is contrary to the scary '4 to 5' outbreaks a year that I've read about online.
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A good friend of mine told me that his outbreaks used to last three or four days, it was just a small patch of an itchy rash. Then it goes away and this happened three or four times a year or whenever he was very stressed. The patch is always the same size, never grows. But as the years have gone by, he now gets it maybe once a year or once every other year. The longer you have it, and the longer you are on the preventive meds, the less often it comes to the surface. That's it - not so scary or a big deal. And he can feel it coming before the virus actually erupts at the surface, which I have heard before. So, for many people, as I had said in my quoted post, it's just a "pesky skin condition." It is unfortunate that it is viewed so harshly because sex is one way to get it. Nobody is shunned for having psoriasis, which can be just as problematic, and quite disabling.
 
Thanks. That makes me feel a bit better. :)

I'm confused, though. I heard back from the doctor yesterday, and all my tests came back negative, including HSV.

This makes no sense, because whatever that was (it's nearly healed), it looked like a textbook case. Plus, as I said, my wife tested positive.

I've read in a couple of places that even after an initial outbreak, it can take weeks or months to show up in a blood test. So maybe that's it. I'll test again in three months or so, and see if anything comes back different. The nurse also gave me a number for the infectious disease people (sounds thrilling), said they might have a better answer for me.

But what if the next test comes back negative? Do I just keep going every few months? (I would be doing that anyway, I suppose, being in an open relationship now.) Do I assume I have it in the meantime, and tell any potential partners?

***

Speaking of partners, I am ready to hang it up on Mary. My therapist told me "Not so fast," but we'll see. (We talk a couple of times through email in between sessions. He's quite amazing in his openness to communication that way.)

Mary never responded to my question "How about next week?" that I threw out a few nights ago. Also, on a whim, I asked her the other night if she wanted to grab dinner. (I live an hour away, but commute for work. I was staying in town at the last minute to see a friend's gig.) She responded and said she couldn't, which was pretty much expected, since it was so short notice. But it was in the language. She called me "buddy." Hmm. Seems like both avoidance and setting boundaries through the use of purposefully chosen words to me. But guessing kills, right?

I'm thinking that I'll just let it lie for a couple of weeks, then send an email,if I haven't seen or heard from her in that time, asking her if she has any interest at all in us going beyond friends, keeping it as light as possible, of course. I don't wanna spook her by sending something very formal and serious out of nowhere from the laid-back, goofball guy she's known this whole time. Of course, I'd much rather talk to her in person about this, but she hasn't provided the opportunity yet.

So, technically it's not over 'til it's over... But it does feel as if I'm back to square one. Disappointing. Out of all the female friends I have, I would have placed money on this working out with Mary. I actually thought she would jump at a chance with me. Oh well. *sigh*
 
Yes it can take awhile to show up, I think up to three months, the IgG number rises as it seroconverts. This is a great forum for any questions you have www.medhelp.org/posts/Herpes/

If you don't end up getting a positive test, most people I know who have a partner with HSV2 get tested every 6 months and use barriers with them (up to 90% risk reduction but there are conflicting studies on how much). So if they get it, hopefully it is realized before it's passed along to other partners, so everybody can make informed decisions.

Now, of course, most people don't want to start using barriers with an existing serious partner, and are willing to take the risk, as often the actual having it doesn't turn out to be a big deal, barring the immuno-compromised who really need to avoid it, and the awkwardness of discussing it with potential partners. Learning to discuss it in a calm fashion seems to be the most important thing, if you are freaked out and think its a big deal, people are more likely to respond to that energy instead of checking out the statistics and deciding that way.

There is always the chance Mary might take a chance on you. But you may need to have another successful interaction with somebody else first for her to see that it is okay, than Jane was okay with it, that everybody was treated well, and believe that you're not just looking for a sex toy, or to leave Jane, or whatever other concerns she might have.
 
Thanks for the links, Anne. I will read up on those when I get a chance. You are all really helping me feel better about this... Much appreciated.

There is always the chance Mary might take a chance on you. But you may need to have another successful interaction with somebody else first for her to see that it is okay, that Jane was okay with it, that everybody was treated well, and believe that you're not just looking for a sex toy, or to leave Jane, or whatever other concerns she might have.
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Those are exactly the points I want to convey in a conversation with Mary, but I haven't had the chance. I have already made it clear that I'm not leaving Jane, and that we're closer than ever. Mary was actually probing me about this last time. "Are things good? Are you still having sex? Is your ring still on?" Yes, hell yes, and yes. :)

But because we haven't talked this over in great detail yet, she's unaware that I've already had one sexual experience, and that Jane was fine with that, and also that Jane has actually been hoping that this would work out with Mary, since she's known her for years and likes her. I'm not sure how to convey that last point without sounding creepy-- "We all want you in our club..." haha

Something in the front of my mind-- Mary may be iffy about Jane being okay with it, though, because there was a point in time (when Jane wasn't open to anything like this at all, but now in a much different place, obviously, with a second love) that Jane had expressed discomfort in me hanging out with Mary when it was just the two of us. But that would have been the case with anyone else... not singling out Mary. So, yes, it's important information for her to know that everything is fine, regarding that.

And what I think a very important detail-- I'd like to let her know that, as you said, I'm not looking for a "sex toy." She may very well have the notion that this is the same as swinging, and it's not that in the least. I care about her, and it's not as if when we decided to open things up, I was searching blindly for the closest warm body. But rather, I think she's pretty special and would love to see if something else could develop, at whatever pace she's comfortable with.

I dunno. One part of me keeps thinking, "Yeah, it's not gonna happen," but the other half is still considering the fact that she didn't have to kiss me back, and that she said she wasn't quite there "yet," although that may have just been talk. Who knows? I won't know until I'm able to actually converse with her.
 
LateToTheParty said:
Confused, though...I heard back from the doctor yesterday, and all my tests came back negative. Including HSV.
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Did he test for both HSV1 and HSV2?

Also, it is always totally possible that one person in a couple can have it and yet not pass it to their partner. You have to come into direct contact with the shedding cells themselves in order to get it. It could just be that that didn't happen. OR it just hasn't shown up yet. Yes, best to get tested again in three months.
 
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I'm not sure if he tested for both, actually. I should call back and get that info.

As for the dating life, I think Mary is definitely out. After not hearing much of anything for a week, I sent her an email a few days ago, basically just saying that while we shared a really nice moment, it was okay to leave it as just that. If she had no interest, it was perfectly fine, because I simply like hanging out with her regardless, and I wouldn't want anything to get weird.

I sent it through Facebook, because I've never really emailed her, and texting something like that just seems ridiculous. And I didn't want to put her on the spot with a phone call. I know that she read it, because FB gives a tiny notification that the message has been seen. And yet, still no word from her.

So, unfortunately, I think it has become weird, at least for right now. Dammit! I'd love the opportunity to explain some things to her, but it doesn't look like I'll get it. So from this point, I'm going to let it all rest, and wait to hear from her if she wants to hang out.
 
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