Ethical/moral dilemma with bf's secondary

L

lolalondon

New member
Hello to everyone,

I could really do with some insight on this!

Just a quick intro-- I've always tended to be non-monoamorous in my relationships (but never cheated). Female, 32, have been with current bf, Bram, for nearly 2 years. This is my second non-monoamorous relationship. It started as an open relationship, but as we're become more secure and comfortable and happier with each other, I can see it going poly. He even has a lady friend I'd be happy for him to be poly with. However, this issue is about a lady friend I'm, well... realllly confused and conflicted about.

Bram is 40, and like most people, has some issues of his own, namely ADHD, which has been undiagnosed for most of his life and caused him a LOT of untold suffering, depression and low self-esteem. He's sorted through most of this and is in a good place. Also, he has delayed ejaculation, which can make him go all night, but he is also self-conscious about it.

I'm generally secure, but have some abandonment anxiety and jealousy and stuff.

We're both very open and try to understand each other and support each other.

While Bram was still married (he separated from wife before meeting me), he met Millie, who was in her early 20s. She was a virgin when they met. She's socially awkward and shy, and at the same, time passive-aggressive, with anger issues. Doesn't sound emotionally mature or stable, really.

Anyway, he ended up sleeping with her while breaking up with his wife. They were together for a while, but she really drove him mad with her passive-aggressiveness, general demands and attitude. She'd sulk for whole evenings, or just not talk all night if she wasn't in the mood. She's generally unstable, changing jobs/getting sacked every 3-6 months, moving flats every 6 months or so-- just something odd going on there. She didn't seem to have friends, only him.

Bram pulled away from her. He tried going open at first, and it was still an issue, so he ended up not sleeping with her anymore and telling her they were just going to be friends. For the last year, she's been coming over once a week and spending the night. They both work until late so it made sense. She'd only arrive at 11pm.

He'd speak to me on the phone in front of Millie. She knew about us. She was obviously upset that he'd stopped being romantically involved with her, but they never talked about it directly, because she's just not very communicative.

He avoided letting us meet for ages, until I'd had enough and insisted. I met her a couple of weeks ago. She's young and pretty enough, but walks around like a puppy that's been kicked, avoids eye contact, speaks in a near whisper. She is apparently always like this, as a fairly traumatised girl who has no self-esteem.I'm a therapist by profession and, well, she just reminds me of some of my patients.

Bram has asked me if he could start having sex with her again as a fuck buddy, at some time in the future, if I got to know her a bit better and decided I was comfortable with it. He said sometimes when she's around he feels like sleeping with her, and that he doesn't like feeling so constrained, since she doesn't constitute a threat to our relationship. (I agree with that.) The way he sees it, she'd make a good fuck buddy, as they get on well as mates, and apparently she has a low sex drive and only wants it once in a while, so they wouldn't be having sex every time she visits. But I have the following worries:

1. She was a virgin when they met. I believe she hasn't had any sexual relationships since, so no experience or sexual experimentation. Is she really mature enough to get involved in something like this? I just feel she'll end up getting hurt and it'll have an impact on our relationship.

2. She is so devoted to him. He's her only close friend, the only person she's been intimate with. I know she is in love with him, but he does not love her in the same way. She's asked him several times why they couldn't be together. He keeps telling her they don't work together as partners, but make good friends. She seems to accept this, but I think this could change if they started sleeping together again.

He does have genuine affection for her, but would always put me first. He said I should trust him to manage this if there's emotional fallout. But it doesn't seem fair to her, imo. I know he's been clear with her, but I do wonder if she'd just put up with whatever he gives her, as she doesn't know any better. The last two times she moved flats, she's chosen places closer to him. He doesn't see why that's freaking me out.

3. As I mentioned, he hasn't had an easy life. It's like sometimes he thinks he's as emotionally damaged as she is, so it's ok. But actually, he'd be going home to a loving relationship, and she wants one with him, but can't have it. It's as though he won't accept that this might not be in her best interest.

Tell me, poly people, is this simply none of my business? Should I just trust him?

I feel bad about being so controlling of their interactions. I think I should just set him free. Our relationship should survive this, even if it's a mistake, but... I also feel a bit creeped out that he'd be so into sleeping with this vulnerable, emotionally messed-up and isolated girl, who is nearly young enough to be his daughter. Is it moral? Do I have a right to say no? Should I stop assuming I know what's good for this fully grown adult I don't know very well? Or should I pull him up on potentially doing her some real emotional and psychological damage?

Please help. I'm so confused.
 
They are both adults, right? How about you let them figure out what will or won't work, in the manner that adults do? Yes, she may be late in learning lessons the rest of us did at an earlier age, but it's still a part of growing up that she needs to accomplish. He may see quite different things in her than you do, that lead him to believe the sex would be good for her. Whether he's mistaken or not really isn't your concern.
 
I would say if you've talked to him about your concerns they same way you've expressed them to us, then you're stuck with leaving the decision up to him. I would definitely mention the creeped-out bit. This is one time where you need to rein in your therapist side (and boy, do I understand that!) and, instead of focusing on the harm it might do to her, focus on how it makes you feel. Once he knows how the situation bothers you, then it's up to him to choose his course of action.
 
AutumnalTone said:
How about you let them figure out what will or won't work in the manner that adults do?
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And how do adults do that? By seeing a therapist, maybe. Lolalondon is a therapist, so I get her gut reaction to act like one.

Sometimes people completely screw up relationships and cause unnecessary amounts of hurt and pain. I can see where Lola would want Bram to avoid that.

Oh, I'm sorry. Did you mean the way HEALTHY and STABLE adults do?? From what I read that may not apply here. (Lola, that bit's not directed at you or Bram. You're right; everyone has problems of some sort. That was in reference to Millie.)
Whether he's mistaken or not really isn't your concern.
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Of course it is. If something negatively affects him, it's quite likely it's going to (at least for a while) affect Lola. Even from a less selfish standpoint, there's nothing wrong with Lola being concerned about the person she loves getting hurt. There may not be anything she should DO about it, but there's nothing wrong with being concerned, and expressing that.
 
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Hi Lola. I would suggest saying clearly to Bram that you were NOT comfortable with him being intimately involved with Millie, and probably never will be. Too much dysfunction there. It'd be inviting drama into your lives. It's okay to recognize that this is probably not a healthy situation for Millie, and to not want to see that continue/worsen. Hell, I don't think I'd even be okay with the sleepovers. Millie needs a chance to move on, I think.
 
Thank you all for your input. I guess that's my problem. You all represent the different angles I take on this, and in a sense, the different voices in my head! That's why I'm so torn. 😣

ThatGirlInGray, I think you're right. I should just explain it to Bram. In fact, I'm going to ask him to read this thread and I guess, well... then let him make his own mind. I feel like he needs proof that I trust him to take care of things, even if this means trusting him to make his own mistakes. And the power dynamics here are already so fucked up. He has ultimate power over his relationship with Millie, deciding they're friends when she would rather they were more.

I have power over their interactions, but I want out of this. I've spent so long feeling bad that my existence, and the fact that Bram fell in love with me, and has decided to commit to me, has hurt her. I'm sick of feeling this way. I know I do tend to think too much about how other people feel, and maybe I'm overdoing it. It's great when I get paid for it, but a headache in my spare time!

Do I have any reason to feel a moral obligation towards Millie, or wanting to protect her from having her heart stomped on? Do I have a right to feel Bram is being a little bit amoral and selfish by being so careless about the psychological or emotional impact it could have on her? He's normally an incredibly caring and conscientious person, but he's also a very sexual, sexually-experienced man, and I feel he's just totally blind to the fact that sex and intimacy could mean a hell of a lot more to her than it does to him. I mean, if she found sex easy, she'd be having it with other people by now.

It's like he thinks that because he's made it clear they're just going to be friends he's not going to break her heart. I'm surprised he's so naive. I also know he has a tendency to try to please everyone, so maybe he thinks if he gives her a little of what she wants (to be physically close to him) she'll be happy, even though she won't get what she really wants (to be in a relationship with him). It seems cruel to me to give her a taste of what she can never have. Then again, he knows her better than I do. Idk, maybe I'm just reading too much into all of this. :confused:
 
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In your position, I would probably tell him I was not comfortable with him dating her, because she has already said she is in love with him. I get people get to make their own decisions, but I find it cruel when somebody doesn't love somebody who loves them, but is willing to use them for a fuckbuddy while it is convenient.

That just doesn't strike me as a caring friend. I don't think I could be in a relationship with somebody who consciously did that. I might not be vehement in my feelings about a secondary sort of partner in this case, but I certainly would be with my husband if he were to want to do something like that. In either case, if it impacted our relationship at all, in any way, that I had to see the negative effect it was having on a young woman like Millie, I would probably feel obliged to end the relationship, if her pain and misery and un-returned love weren't enough to get my partner to end it.

I don't envy your position. It is nice to see you considering all the angles.
 
I'm not sure whether Millie has clearly stated she loves him, but it's obvious to me. She has asked Bram before why they can't be together, several times. I know it's been a source of pain for her.

Bram's counter-argument is that I've had a fuck buddy who had feelings for me, who would have liked something more with me, given the chance. This is true. But it's also true that the situation involved an older man who lived far away. I only used to see him occasionally. He was experienced, and dated other women, and I did explain to him before we entered a sexual relationship that I'd never be his gf. He said he was happy with that, and never ever caused drama or acted in a hurt way.

Bram thinks this was an example of him trusting me to manage a situation where a secondary had feelings for me, so I should have the same trust in him. Whenever I try to say it's different because the guy I was involved with wasn't so majorly hung up on me, and was far away and emotionally mature enough to deal with it, Bram gets annoyed that it's always ok when I do things, then I judge his actions by a different set of standards.

Maybe he's right. But I also think that if he doesn't take emotional responsibility for the power he has over Millie, and how vulnerable she is, and if she gets hurt and has a breakdown or something, then I will lose a lot of respect for him. And I'm not denying that I'm jealous of the special connection they have. I am. Still, I'd deal with it if I didn't think he was being a bit flippant.

At the same time, Bram argues that she's an adult, and she's been clearly told they'll never be more than friends, so if she's happy doing this, who am I to say it's not ok? I'm not her mum (thank god). It just makes me feel like I'm taking a moral high ground, or being controlling, and I don't know if it's justified. But it all just feels a bit icky and dysfunctional, like AnnabelMore said.

He's had a lot of dysfunctional relationships in his life, so maybe he's comfortable with this. But I've generally had healthy, nurturing and mutually respectful relationships, so I'm not used to this way of thinking, of treating people like this.

Maybe he needs to keep some dysfunctionality in his life to feel happy? ;)

Still, I do feel sorry for Millie, whatever happens, and I'm not sure how to get my point across to Bram without seeming like a controlling bitch. I mean, he's not had sex with her for a year; he's introduced her to me; he made sure I was comfortable, and that she was ok with it; he stopped her spending the night every time she visits, etc. So, he's followed the rules, and should get his reward now, right?
 
I guess the other difficult thing to get my head around is that, having been around since before I even met Bram, Millie is here for the long term. She's not just going to disappear. Their friendship is important to him, as he doesn't have a large group of friends to socialise with. I definitely don't want to damage this friendship. I just need to accept that she is going to remain a big part of his (and our) lives, sex or not sex.

I do feel better for no longer trying to fight this, for letting go of possessiveness. I'm hopeful that I can meet her a few more times and for things to become less compartmentalised.

I've been seeing Bram for nearly two years, but I only met Milli for the first time last month, so you might be able to understand that this has been getting bigger and scarier in my head.

I think I will just share all my anxieties with him, but ultimately leave it up to him. I trust him and know he is a good man, even if he might end up making a mistake on this one. I do hope that he'll realise it's a bad move, when left to think about it for himself, but I need to prepare for the possibility he might do it anyway.

Thank you all for the support and advice. xxx
 
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