How to invite your wife into polyamory ?

I'm really finding myself wondering about the whole purpose of this thread anymore. I imagine living with the OP's arguments and justifications would be exhausting.

How many ways can several different people say, "Look, your wife really doesn't seem to want to be in a poly relationship?" Are we, at some point, going to get so overwhelmed by the arguments that we magically proclaim, "Oh! Your wife is going to just LOVE a poly relationship, you just have to try to convince her more!"

The horse is dead. Quit beating it.
 
Originally Posted by lunabunny View Post
LoveQuest, the couple dynamic you describe above is - at best - a feeling of mutual empathy by both partners towards each other's wants, needs, pain, ambitions, growth, etc., and - at worst - a potentially destructive form of co-dependency.


lunabunny, correct me if I'm wrong, but I noticed that for everything I said in this thread you disagreed and produced detailed counter arguments. Would you disagree with this ? :) Nothing personal for me, but if you could look at what I wrote from a neutral perspective, without thinking about the negative perception you had on anything I wrote earlier, then you'd notice I'm not not even talking about myself or my wife ( adding FallenAngelina here ).


LoveQuest, the point I made above (which you quoted) was not specific to your situation with your wife, but was a direct response to a comment you had made shortly before (about the nature of a couple's mutual interest and inter-connection and more particularly, the example you used from the Escobar film).

IF, however, you perceive me as presenting you with numerous counter-arguments, it isn't because I have a particularly negative view of polyamory, per se.

Rather, it is because during the course of this thread you appear to have back-tracked and side-stepped on many issues, not to mention thrown every persuasive tactic in the book at the members of this board, in a bid to convince us that you are an expert in psychology, human relations and sexuality, and your wife's mental condition and capabilities - which seems to indicate that you are willing to say anything and skew your arguments this way and that, in order to convince yourself and others here of the "rightness" and validity of your own argument... i.e. that polyamory is a "core need" of yours and therefore your wife ought to fulfil that need since you two share a deep and abiding "true love", and are not willing to, or cannot, divorce due to financial/social reasons and/or child-rearing obligations.

Cutting to the chase, I believe you want to pursue a multi-relationship household - and your wife doesn't. You do not wish to "hear" her, and believe that trying to convince her in "baby steps", over time, is the way to ultimately achieve your aims.

If you haven't been reading carefully enough, let me spell it out for you: most of the forum members who have actively engaged in this thread HAVE thoroughly read and taken your opinions on board. We just don't happen to agree that what you want is in the best interests of your wife. And even if it IS, or could be, she has given you many CLEAR indications that it is NOT what she wants to pursue for herself and her marriage.

Tinwen, FallenAngelina, powerpuffgrl and many others here had said much the same. I'm out.
 
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LoveQuest,
I don't mind challenging your ideas about relationships in, what I hope, is an uderstandable way for you.
I think the result collected from a "new contract" are more important than the reasons for signing up to it. I mean that an enthusiastic yes can be ruined if things go wrong in any way, while a mere consent can show itself as a valuable decision if latter everyone gets happier. At the same time, it is true though that an enthusiastic yes has greater chances of being successful. Yet, I believe this is not the best predictor of success.
I can't tell if initial enthusiasm is a better prediction of success than the quality of the relationship, but I'll argue that it's a good indicator that the person consenting isn't under pressure.

Speaking from my experience, pressure causes wounds on the soul and the relationship that aren't healed or forgiven easily.
I'm big on a free decision (i.e. not caused by fear or necessity) because being pressured by your partner leads to fear of being pressured again in the future, thus destroys the trust in the relationship. Even worse, agreeing under pressure to anything you wouldn't do otherwise can put the person under slow and steady (or intense and repeated) stress, the kind that numbs soul and and eats away on health.
That's the line we're afraid of crossing here - and you have all the circumstances to do something like that to your wife (since she's likely both economically and emotionally dependent) and all the responsibility not to. I know it's not your intention, but if your wife has intense fear, this dynamics can to a lesser degree happen even by being simply stubborn.

Also, consider this: there are rough patches in any monogamous-polyamorous transition. It's very good if both partners have their own selfish reasons to want polyamory, because these selfish reasons will help sustain them when things with their partner aren't so well.
In my understanding, like any kind of decision a couple takes, what makes it successful is the fact that both monogamous partners are thinking as a unit when pondering about the change, not as individuals. In other words, they are targeting on mutual happiness, not just on their own benefits. ... On the end, success is not so much determined by their character purity or their selfishness/altruism. It is more about the emotional connection each one of them has with that particular partner. You have a deep connection when you feel upon yourself your partner's greatest pains and joys.
I don't take issue with your description of connection based on deep empathy and a wish for both to be happy in the unit.
But, there's more nuance, which for me boils down to the ability to step in and out of the connection and maintain a sense of self.

What does it mean to maintain a sense of self? In my previous relationship, I was so enmeshed with my ex that I adopted his wish for a certain lifestyle. I couldn't differentiate between my desires and his desires anymore. I also gave up some hobbies and certain preferences just to be with him more. These things were missing from my life, but I didn't notice, since I wasn't grounded in myself. In the end, it all crashed and burned when all these suppressed differences came out, one outside trigger and all of this became unsustainable - and I remember feeling an extreme sense of shame about wanting something else than what's "best for the unit" (=something else than he does). Note that my ex wasn't even dominant in the relationship, just had a clearer idea on certain things, and I believe he also gave up himself in other areas.
This kind of forgetting who you are is what I understand under the word codependency (for those who've studied the concept more, feel free to correct).

I am better aware of my individuality now in my relationship with Idealist. Amazingly, this doesn't mean that my empathy and love towards my partner is weaker. When we're together, I can feel a change of his mood from across the room, and I'm more then willing to do stuff I wouldn't do for my ex. But I know exactly if I'm doing it because of my wish or his wish, and don't feel obligated to, which actually helps a real relationship.

Stepping in and out of connection includes being able to be without the partner if necessary. It also includes reflecting upon what is best for you, as well as reflecting what is best for the relationship from a detached view, and considering both your interest AND the connection when making decisions.
I firmly believe no matter how strong the connection on an emotional level, not every action should be taken because of it. I haven't seen the movies, but excusing crimes is very likely too much.

I also don't think the strength of connection alone is a good prediction of success, especially in polyamory. See, you having a connection with someone else will surely change (even disconnect at times of a date) what you have with your wife. This doesn't have to be a bad experience, but once you're on a date, she's on her own. A strong connection can actually hinder success, if not balanced by the ability to be on your own.

Please go study codependency. It's very hard to recognize from inside a codependent relationship, but it's likely what you've got going on.
When there is a deep connection, it will always "have the last word" and determines the outcome, making them act or not on a behavior and move or not towards a direction.

When that's the case, after a new contract is agreed and everyone is being honest, it will tend to work. Even those who are just consenting also get happier, both because they will enjoy watching your partner's happiness and because that new energy will be contagious and make their relationship more passionate.
Thinking that love (or connection) is enough is monogamous thinking and a myth. There are prerequisites for this to work (see above).

Instead, what I described is just the essence of human beings. We are highly social species which would not have been able to reign on earth if it wasn't for our mutual dependency, sharing of resources, collaborative work, mutual care and mutual love. Thus there is nothing wrong with two people having a very deep connection. Except if they aren't able to reach any level of deepness in their "other connections", because then they would OVERLOAD and expect too much of each other, and fall into boredom. And there is where I see polyamory as the natural/original idea.
Premise1: Human beings are social and need interdependence. People need multiple connections.
... IMHO true with rare exceptions (monks).
Premise2: There's nothing wrong with a strong connection.
... Unless you loose yourself in it.
Conclusion: Polyamory fits these needs naturally.
... Simply doesn't follow. Polyamory can help, but so can close friends, broader family and reliable coworkers. You have a hidden assumption here that people need multiple romantic connections, which is not true for many.
And, as supported by the book Sex at Dawn, monogamy is more of an adaptation brought mainly by agriculture, which started 10 thousand years ago - and extremely long period in terms of cultural development but extremely short period in evolutionary terms. In other words, our genes are yet the same as in old ages where polyamory was the standard.
I'd be very careful about claiming that polyamory was a standard, ever - and even if, that it was a genetical thing and not a cultural one. Human beings seem to be very flexible and "naturally" all over the monogamy-nonmonogamy scale.
The thought that we are or should be independent is an illusion. No one is able to have a joyful life without maintaining any closer connection. Even our economy depends on the economical system around us. However, what we can, and should do, is to cultivate a range of connections, which will bring us security and flexibility. This is what makes the cobweb so efficient. Not its thickness but it's range of connections plus the fact that each individual connection is reliable.
You're basically arguing with nobody here.
But polyamory is neither the only solution nor the best for everybody.
 
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Pressure doesn't lead to happiness...

You have given a nice description about the problems that result from one partner accepting to do things under pressure. Also, a nice description of codependency as well. However, you have made a few incorrect assumptions, such as assuming that I have never studied about codependency.

Codependency is broadly used today by people who don't even know it's origin. It comes from "dependent personality disorder", which you find a nice description in Wikipedia (1), (2), from where I quote:

" historically, the concept of co-dependence "comes directly out of Alcoholics Anonymous, part of a dawning realization that the problem was not solely the addict, but also the family and friends who constitute a network for the alcoholic." "

Moreover, the term has been popularized by authors who talk about two specific mental disorders. It has then created the informal and unfortunate stereotyped view about those who support people with such mental illness. What people without such experience don't realize (including some book authors) is that those mental disorders cause a disruption on the non-partner's behavior, but they don't change their personality. As supported by books from experienced authors, such as "The Human Magnet Syndrome", once the non-partner engages in a relationship with a mentally healthy partner, then this disruption in behavior is gone.

I'm thankful that you are trying to help me, because you found that that personality trait on yourself, but this is a trait which I don't particularly have. As you may have noticed, I'm very focused on my own goals and my own sense of self. In the past, I did experience altered behaviors on myself around disordered partners, which didn't make me codependent, just inexperienced. Yet, at the present moment, I can hold up to my own goals and principles extremely well, even under extreme pressure.

Yes, unlike you have imagined, I'm the one who is under daily pressure, not my wife. It is part of the disorder to create a world-war-2 because of a tiny thing (which is just a for m of attention seeking), and in such moments you do need a very strong feet on the ground to prevent yourself from indulging that behavior, feeding the disorder. It's such an extreme amount of pressure with lots of shouting and enough over-talking to make you dizzy, so unbelievable that I'd have to film it if I wanted to prove it.

And I don't pressure her because it also feeds the disorder. Actually, I only do pressure her when it is about her health, ordering her to eat something and take her supplements. But she understands that as an act of "taking care of her", so she ends up "obeying" and cools down a little.

Moving on, I don't think you understood my description of "deep connection". I'm wasn't being specific about romantic connections. I'm referring to the connection you have with all of your family members, parents and close friends, plus thinner connections you have with everyone else. It is a mistake to think that a deep connection is an opposite of having a good sense of self. What you need to make successful decisions is a balance, a good sense of self (your own needs and feeling) plus a good sense of your partner's needs and feelings too. And it obviously needs to be reciprocate.

I also don't think the strength of connection alone is a good prediction of success, especially in polyamory. See, you having a connection with someone else will surely change (even disconnect at times of a date) what you have with your wife. This doesn't have to be a bad experience, but once you're on a date, she's on her own. A strong connection can actually hinder success, if not balanced by the ability to be on your own.

You understood the "deep connection" as a synonym of codependency and you described polyamory as independent two-way relationships forming a V, W, X or something similar. I agree that is the hardest scenario, but I clearly stated I'm not wishing to do that. A cobweb is strong because it is balanced. All dots have multiple connections and work together.

Neither me or Cam would not be happy in doing that. We would NOT feel comfortable in having lots of fun in a way that would make her agonize in anxiety. That's not because we are codependent. It's because we both have a connection with her, and it doesn't need to be this way. Even with strong fear of replacement (or "fear of abandonment" as you may prefer), the strong connection that my wife has with us is able make her overcome those fears. She overcomes it by focusing on our well being. And this is not theory, it is practical observation of the facts. For instance, she has already invited me to go buy some stuff with Cam, knowing I wanted so much to have that privacy. My wife then said she felt highly gratified with herself for having mastered that capacity. For my surprise, we took longer than expected to get back but my wife didn't call me any moment, didn't make any interrogatory, and didn't even show any anxiety around that event.

That's what I meant when I said "When there is a deep connection, it will always "have the last word" and determines the outcome, making them act or not on a behavior and move or not towards a direction.". My point goes beyond empathy, but it is not restricted to romantic relationships either. It is about the entire capacity of establishing emotional connections that we have.

Btw, I don't know much about monks, but I believe they either depend on each other or to their connection with human-like religious entities (like God, Jesus and Mary, holy fathers, etc), which is maintained through constant prayers.

I'd be very careful about claiming that polyamory was a standard, ever - and even if, that it was a genetical thing and not a cultural one. Human beings seem to be very flexible and "naturally" all over the monogamy-nonmonogamy scale.

You are focusing on contemporary human behavior and culture. In modern days our cultures seem different but they are actually very similar, as they all have developed around agriculture. In old ages, however, human standard were much closer to general animal standards. The occurrence in nature of monogamous only species, which create a life-time mono bond, is exceptionally rare, and human beings were certainly not one of those.

Even in modern days, most people keep doing "serial monogamy" and don't realize that having a single partner is not enough for them, as it can only fulfill them for a relatively short period of time. Then when their mutual attraction has been washed away, so many do that non-sense fights blaming their partner on their own discontentment. That's why conventional marriages (monogamous) are now a target of jokes, because people make it ridiculous.
 
she has already invited me to go buy some stuff with Cam, knowing I wanted so much to have that privacy. My wife then said she felt highly gratified with herself for having mastered that capacity. For my surprise, we took longer than expected to get back but my wife didn't call me any moment, didn't make any interrogatory, and didn't even show any anxiety around that event.
You're taking some more action then. Looking forward to hearing how your story went. Keep us updated from time to time.
 
The horse is dead. Quit beating it.

powerpuffgrl1969, your reply made me laugh, nice humor. :p Out of this board, it doesn't happen the way you think though. Out here it there isn't much verbal exchange. She is not good in understanding lots of words, but she is good in understanding expressions of emotion. So I'm practicing my emotional communication, which I'm not very good on, since I'm too introverted. It's hard for me to express emotions, which makes me feel vulnerable, so I'm apparently unemotional when I'm angry, sad, happy, etc. So exposing my emotions is hard, but worth it, because it's what makes her understand my feelings and trust my words.
 
You're taking some more action then. Looking forward to hearing how your story went. Keep us updated from time to time.

Actually, that was old news. I have been lacking on energy to deal with anything. So I refocused on finding new ways to help her with her mental health.

Couple of days ago I found myself in an interesting situation were I respected her and told her, then she liked it.
 
Asking for feedback and accepting it and using it are entirely different things.

At this rate, 10 pages into this thread, we'll still have you describing your feelings in some way you hope we will "understand" (meaning "agree"). I don't think anyone has misunderstood you, many of us DISAGREE with what you're planning as being anything useful or ethical.

I see you trying to talk your way around unfavorable opinions in various ways. Someone doesn't understand what you mean. Someone doesn't understand psychology in the way you mean (frankly, it is bullshit). Someone misunderstands Cam's interest. Someone misunderstands your wife's sexuality. No matter what anyone says, if they disagree, you come up with some way to dismiss what they said based on something peripheral, while dodging the elephant in the room - the ethics of manipulating two people into catering to your wish.

Page 15.

Hey LoveQuest, what do you think of my understanding of people? Not bad, eh?

You don't need more discussion, you need to consider the possibility that people saying things you don't want to hear aren't stupid and may have something useful for you.

We are all anonymous here. It doesn't matter who thinks what about you. Arguing to convince us with various and changing descriptions is not going to actually add value to your life unless you find a way to use it. If you do only what you want to do, you are already doing it. You'll be where you are infinitely till something breaks.

Realizing you need help and seeking it will be rendered useless by failing to accept it when offered.
 
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Ha... Great wierd thread! Cool story bro

If your wife said " no" of her own free will? It means "No"
Good luck.. Let the chips fall where they may.
Don't manipulate her! It's Better to let her go! Yeah you have kids, responsibility, and your hangups! Thankfully you are self aware enough to understand.
You will never find true happiness within while manipulating everything.
This thread can go on and on... But hey...
Lady said "No"
 
Ideas, not feelings...

Hey LoveQuest, what do you think of my understanding of people? Not bad, eh?
anamikanon,

This board is mostly about sharing experiences and asking for help. But I don't have things going on right now, so all I can share are desires and feelings. The responses then help me to develop my ideas, especially when there is "productive criticism".

So answering your question, I have no idea if you understand people well or not, but I don't think you understood my goal when you said 'you describing your feelings in some way you hope we will "understand" (meaning "agree")'.

To begin with, feelings are not meant to be understood or agreed. Everyone has the right to feel whatever they feel. I'm glad that I feel free to do that and share them. Yet, because the reasons behind them are too complex, I'm not focused in justifying anything that I feel, and empathy is not what I'm seeking in this thread. Instead, I'm more focused on describing my ideas and views, so that I can develop them further. I certainly wish that my ideas are understood, but I won't wish them to be fully agreed. Where there is no mistake, there is nothing to improve.

You don't need more discussion, you need to consider the possibility that people saying things you don't want to hear aren't stupid and may have something useful for you.

I don't recall judging anyone here as stupid. Perhaps you have some example to provide. But in fact one reason I prefer to participate in English boards is because the responses are much more intelligent.

Arguing to convince us with various and changing descriptions is not going to actually add value to your life unless you find a way to use it. If you do only what you want to do, you are already doing it. You'll be where you are infinitely till something breaks.

It is true that an ideas that can't be used are useless. :D
My wife is still difficult so I have a bigger challenge on hands which sucks too much of my energy. I have given up on two difficult long term partners before, but we are doing progress here, that's why we are still together.

Once more progress is done towards improving that situation (such as her sense of safety), then it will be easier for us to have civil conversations and reach agreements.

My goal is not to bring her into the direction that I wish to follow, nor to follow that direction without her. My goal is to put both of us into the same page, and decide together which direction to follow, whatever it is. That's the way I see us, as a unit, and she shares this same view.

Once her disorder is not getting in the way, we'll be able to find some middle ground.
 
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