I did the veto thing. (Gasp! I know.)

[london]

Hi theveronica,

I honestly think you did the right thing. I get that the practice of vetoing is frowned upon by many. However, if that is what you and your husband agreed to, there is nothing wrong with following your agreement. It seems clear that he was breaking your trust repeatedly, and I think it is reasonable to ask a relationship to be ended if it is damaging your relationship with him.

My triad has a veto rule. We don't want to ever use it and all of us hope to basically outgrown the need for it before it is ever used, but for now that is what the three of us need. We've been through a lot of tough stuff together, and I think the veto rule, along with our version of hierarchy, are our security blanket until we've had enough positive experiences to move forward without those things.

You and your husband are adults who made agreements and a veto rule was part of that. He knew that was part of the deal. I understand him being upset, but in many ways he created the problem by breaking rules/your trust.

Hang in there. Try to be supportive of his sorrow, accepting of his anger, but also focus on rebuilding the trust between the two of you so that both of you can move forward in a positive way.

Could you explain how forcing him to end this relationship will solve the issues that he allegedly has? Or is it punishment for being a bad partner?

If she truly wants to focus on rebuilding their relationship, surely she needs to end her other relationships so both parties can fully focus on their broken marriage.

 

[Natja]

Mindfully having the compersion to hear that story and not be put off by, but rather being able to love the gratuitous details of his sex and openly accepting them, being able to share something that makes you happy with someone you love makes the experience much, much more positive. Being grateful for his happiness would foster a deeper flow of communication and bonding between you and your husband.

I'm sorry, what? Not wanting to hear about what her metamour is like in bed is bad now?

It is a personal thing! I wouldn't like to hear it. Also, I would certainly be seriously ticked off if a partner of mine were sharing what my orgasm face looked like with another partner. I don't care how bloody happy and excited they are by me.

He should have some bloody self control, but it is clear he doesn't.

I don't agree on the veto, nor do I agree with the husband not being honest. But telling the woman that she needs to hear personal details to make her husband more comfortable (feigning compersion) is out of order, IMO.

 

[Dagferi]

I too would be highly grossed out to hear the dirty details of what a meta's orgasm face looked like, or what they did in bed. And if my partner kept telling me these kinds of stories, I would get highly pissed off.

Murf would absolutely hit the roof if I shared the intimate details of our relationship with anyone.

 

[Hmm]

Those are good points. My thought process behind it is that coping with the uncomfortable and spreading the comfort zone is a good way to grow and such. But it shows that when your husband lacks that kind of self-control and ability to communicate, there are just going to be rocky times in a relationship involving him. Respecting and negotiating boundaries is crucial to building a relationship. In my opinion, the desire to expand boundaries and take down walls is a direction of growth, but I respect that other people don't share that same sentiment.

 

[SouthernGal]

I have no opinion on a veto. What you negotiated with each other as adults should stand, however, unless renegotiated. It's horrible that he didn't tell his gf that was in place, because she couldn't decide for herself if that was a risk she could accept. I would strongly recommend sitting down with him and having those painful, frank conversations regarding why he is not openly communicating with you.

Does he feel his needs are not being met?
How would he like those needs met?
What will it take for him to be open and honest in the future?

How can you, yourself, improve on communicating? "I'd rather you did not do something" is not the same as saying "Don't do that," and leaves the situation open for problems. I don't agree all relationships should be stopped just because he broke the rules, but you should be prepared to put others on the back burner while you work on the one with your husband. Try to put yourself in his shoes and anticipate how he might feel about the rules and boundaries, as well. Does he avoid telling you things he believes will upset you because he fears your reaction, or because he doesn't want to put in the time? That's an important question, because it bears on whether you can have a relationship at all, poly or otherwise.

As for TMI, my hubby is the world's worst about oversharing. I made my discomfort known, but put in place a system where he can tell me about his other relationships, and I will ask questions to hear what he's trying to share, without stepping into uncomfy conversation material. When he starts oversharing, I say "TMI," and he regroups. That way, he can share how awesome everything is without creeping me out.

Good luck!

 

[scarletzinnia]

Vis a vis closing the OP's relationship, I don't think that is always necessary. If one partner of a committed couple is able to pursue a healthy relationship outside the primary one that does not impact the primary one negatively in any way, nor take focus away from nurturing the primary one, and the other partner is not able to do this (like the OP's husband), then why does the relationship have to be closed on both ends? To me, it makes much more sense for the partner who cannot pursue an outside relationship without damaging their primary one, to cease doing so, while they do the personal work necessary to make a healthier, less toxic secondary relationship possible.

In other words, if the OP is in one or more other relationships that don't affect her marriage adversely (and some secondary partners actually succeed in helping and supporting their metamours too), I don't see why she should give them up. Poly is not about everything being in perfect balance. It is perfectly legitimate for one party to pull back on poly relationships and the other to not do so, as long as everyone agrees.

 

[Natja]

To me, it makes much more sense for the partner who cannot pursue an outside relationship without damaging their primary one, to cease doing so, while they do the personal work necessary to make a healthier, less toxic secondary relationship possible.

Except there is a huge difference between a person pulling back and deciding they need to work on themselves to make themselves a better poly partner, and a person being told, 'You are bad at this. I am obviously brilliant though, so you can't do what I can do...'

It might be fair enough, but if anyone thinks that is not going to cause some major upsets in a marriage. well, they would be fooling themselves.

Vetoing a person because they are toxic is one thing. Vetoing someone because your partner is toxic is pointless, because the only way they can prove that they are able to have a healthy poly relationship is to be in a healthy poly relationship. Otherwise he is just operating monogamously and waiting until he is allowed to be poly again (power play), and his partner will still have to rely on trust that he will not continue with his bad behaviour.

This can be construed as punishment, since it is not something he is controlling, but something controlled by someone else. It is a bad move, which I feel will bite you in the arse in the end.

 

[ButtercupGirl]

Would you explain how forcing him to end this relationship will solve the issues that he allegedly has? Or is it punishment for being a bad partner?

If she truly wants to focus on rebuilding their relationship, surely she needs to end her other relationships so both parties can fully focus on their broken marriage.

Hi. London. I honestly don't think it matters. This is what they negotiated. They are adults who are doing poly they best way they know how at this point. Since they both agreed to a veto rule, I feel she had every right to use it.

I think it is important to remember that not everyone is "perfectly poly" the moment they open up their relationships. Some of us, as much as we would like to be completely trusting of our partners, and would like to allow all relationships to develop completely authentically and freely, need the structure of rules and hierarchy at first, until we become more experienced and skilled at negotiating the ups and downs of being poly. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, especially if all partners have a clear understanding of what that hierarchy means and what those rules are.

 

[scarletzinnia]

Except there is a huge difference between a person pulling back and deciding they need to work on themselves, to make themselves a better poly partner, and a person being told 'You are bad at this. I am obviously brilliant though, so you can't do what I can do...'

Agreed, Natja. I was talking about option one, a person being an adult and realizing that their poly practice has been detrimental to their primary relationship, and that they need to work on their personal issues of sensitivity or communication or repressed anger or whatever is causing them to screw everything up, and to not insist that their partner, who has been proceeding in a healthier, more sensitive, more mindful way all along, toss aside all their other partners too just to make things "equal."

I don't know if the OP's husband is this person. I'd say probably not from what she has posted. But people like this do exist.

 

[Natja]

I honestly don't think it matters. This is what they negotiated. They are adults who are doing poly they best way they know how at this point. Since they both agreed to a veto rule, I feel she had every right to use it.
............. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, especially if all partners have a clear understanding of what that hierarchy means and what those rules are.

I think there is a possibility that considering the husband has been displeased with the veto, and has a history of being dishonest, it could be said that he has a habit of agreeing to things he doesn't really agree with, because he perhaps does not feel comfortable with being honest with his wife. If that is the case, than there is an issue within the marriage, and it needs to be worked on by both partners.

 

[Natja]

I don't know if the OP's husband is this person. I'd say probably not from what she has posted.

I don't think so either.

 

[theveronica]

Thank you everyone. I got a lot of feedback, all of it helpful.

 

[bofish]

I'm coming in late:

I don't see why asking them to break up is a valid solution. It sounds like the difficulties have to do with OP and the husband and her own boundaries.

Much of this doesn't seem the fault of the girlfriend or their relationship.

1. The husband tells you about their sex life. Tell him "Don't." If he brings it up, change the subject.
2. The girlfriend discusses her problems with you. Tell her "Don't." If she continues, change the subject.
3. The husband gets "drunk" and has sex without a rubber. This is immature and inappropriate behavior. Maybe he or both of you should work on that.

The issue I see is that many of the problems you describe could just as well be replicated by his next relationship, or the one after that. If you aren't able to set your own boundaries, and he is not able to act responsibly, how will the next woman be right?

 

[Inyourendo]

I think this is a good lesson to all. Ask if the person you want to date has a veto policy, and if they do, decide if having your partner's other SOs having control over your relationship is something you are comfortable with.

 

[bookbug]

Those are good points. My thought process behind it is that coping with the uncomfortable, and spreading the comfort zone, is a good way to grow, and such. But it shows that when your husband lacks that kind of self-control and ability to communicate, there are just going to be rocky times in a relationship involving him. Respecting and negotiating boundaries is crucial to building a relationship. In my opinion, the desire to expand boundaries and take down walls is a direction of growth, but I respect that other people don't share that same sentiment.

I have no problems feeling compersion. In fact, I don't understand how come some people don't. However, sharing what I consider to be private moments between two partners is not a requirement for me to experience it. I don't have a problem with things like, "Hey, so-and-so and I just had our best sex ever!" Awesomeness. But orgasm face? No.

 

[theveronica]

I think it's unreasonable in a polyamorous relationship to permit your partner to interact with someone in a certain way, then take that thing off the table.

So then you just go with it, even though it is clearly not okay? Wouldn't that be more damaging in the long run? Then you get into the whole messy, "Should I even say how I feel in the first place?"

I think you should clarify to husband and his girlfriend that you are not supportive of him having any poly relationship at this time, that your withdrawal of support for their relationship was not a personal judgment of her. Because I do not believe that he is capable, at this time, of pursuing any kind of poly relationship without harming your relationship further. I think you would be making a huge mistake to encourage him to go forth and try with a different partner. Sure, he might find someone more mature than his first one, but he's still going to mess things up, and yet another person is going to get hurt.

I have been thinking about this one a lot. I did make it clear to him that my disapproval of their relationship was not a judgement on her as a human being, and he appreciated that. He did, after much thinking and talking about it, say that he felt like he went into this feeling like he knew everything, and ended up handing most of it poorly, to the detriment of our relationship.

I'm thinking that this "I don't want to hear about it" attitude is partly what's making your husband a little frustrated and like he can't express what he feels. His excitement for his new love and wanting to share the details, to me, seems like he is really happy for himself and wants to share that happiness with you. Mindfully having the compersion to hear that story and not be put off by but rather being able to love the gratuitous details of his sex and openly accepting them...being able to share something that makes you happy with someone you love makes the experience much, much more positive. Being grateful for his happiness would foster a deeper flow of communication and bonding between you and your husband.

This is very true. We have always been able to tell each other everything, and then I put a boundary up that probably seemed selfish and frankly quite mean. I realize that I approach relationships differently than he does. I am working on remembering that just because I do something one way, it does not set precedent for everyone else.

Mindfully having the compersion to hear that story and not be put off by but rather being able to love the gratuitous details of his sex and openly accepting them...being able to share something that makes you happy with someone you love makes the experience much, much more positive. Being grateful for his happiness would foster a deeper flow of communication and bonding between you and your husband.

It's not even about compersion. It's about respecting the privacy that two people have with each other while being intimate. I am grateful for his happiness, but when he told me about how she tasted (ifyouknowwhatimean), that breaches the boundaries of respect, not only for me, but for her. For the record, he and I have slept with plenty of people together, so it's not about jealousy and sex.

This can be construed as punishment, since it is not something he is controlling but something controlled by someone else. It is a bad move, which I feel will bite yoy in the arse in the end.

This is what I am afraid of. Dang, it's what I am dealing with.

Poly is messy, yo.

 

[london]

I think there is a possibility that considering the husband has been displeased with the veto and has a history of being dishonest, it could be said that he has a habit of agreeing to things he doesn't really agree with because he perhaps does not feel comfortable with being honest with his wife, if that is the case than there is an issue within the marriage, it needs to be worked on by both partners.

Absolutely.

 

[london]

So then you just go with it, even though it is clearly not okay? Wouldn't that be more damaging in the long run? Then you get in the whole messy "Should I even say how I feel in the first place?"

If you move away from the idea that you own your husband and he is responsible for making you happy, it will become clear that if something is making you uncomfortable, you have to own that negative feeling and find ways for you to deal with it. You've agreed to be poly. Your husband is being poly by forming relationships with other people in a way that they both want. He is happy; she is happy; you aren't. Your options are to try and reframe how you feel about that thing, or to admit that polyamory isn't for you and opt out of it. Your husband may decide being married to you is more important than being poly and opt out too. The vital thing to recognise is that because polyamory might not work for you, it doesn't mean that it doesn't work for your husband either. You are separate, independent people.

I said earlier that there is a fine line between being transparent about your worries and inadvertently manipulating people to behave in a way that you want them to. That line becomes finer depending on how much affection someone has for you and how likely they generally are to put their needs first. This is a line I crossed recently and my partner turned someone down because he thought they triggered me, and not getting involved with her would be the safest and best way to deal with that.

 

[Hmm]

It's not even about compersion. It's about respecting the privacy that two people have with each other while being intimate. I am grateful for his happiness, but when he told me about how she tasted (ifyouknowwhatimean), that breaches the boundaries of respect, not only for me, but for her. For the record, him and I have slept with plenty of people together, so it's not about jealousy and sex.

But then I wonder, is it really disrespectful if she doesn't mind those details being shared? I don't want to ask too many prodding questions; it sounds like how you feel is how you feel, and that's okay. My personal preference is, as I've mentioned, to push discomfort and learn to love the messier, more complicated feelings head on, as opposed to wanting to curb them. It makes for less conditions in love, which I enjoy. But you are free to disagree with those preferences. Any way you frame it...

Poly is messy, yo.

...sums up a lot of things in love and life rather succinctly. haha. It takes time to sort the mess sometimes, especially without much of a map set out for you, but give it time. You may soon find, with patience and careful thought, that all that stuff will start to make sense.

 

[SouthernGal]

Gah! Few things are all or nothing. You can make agreements, find some things really aren't coming out in a way you are comfortable, and talk to your partner without changing the rules of the game. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Make sure you spend some time examining why you feel uncomfortable, hurt, jealous, and see what you can do to fix yourself. Then bring him into the conversation you've been having with yourself. You don't have to say, "Polyamory is not for me," or "I can't talk about what bothers me," or veto a relationship or relationship style. You just need to be adult about it. Approaching it in a loving and non-confrontational manner helps you grow, your marriage grow, and happiness grow.