It's a Texlahoma Story

[IndieSolo]

I think this stuff gets to me, in large part, because Andy has always thought Hotwife scenarios were hot, and I feel guilty for not being able to do that with him.

But why do you think you should give that to him just because he thinks it's hot? Does he always get everything he wants? Do you? If he thought having sex with you in broad daylight on the steps in front of your local courthouse would be hot, would you be sad or feel inferior in some way because you couldn't do that unless you were willing to be arrested and in the headlines?

I mean there is the kind of logic that happens in fantasies, and then there is real life.

And it totally confuses me why a guy who I have seen turn down multiple offers of sex from women - because "I don't know her! It would be weird!" - would think the idea of his wife sleeping around is hot.

It's just a fantasy. The thing that always gets me is how so many people think the goal should be to make fantasies come true. But if a fantasy is realized, then it's no longer a fantasy and you have to find a new one.

Some -- maybe even most! -- fantasies should stay fantasies. I really don't think many women with rape or gang bang fantasies actually want to see those things happen. I used to fantasize about a guy I know fucking me on the counter in the bookstore he owns, in full view of anyone walking by. Did I really want that to happen? No-o-oo-oooooo!

If you can find a copy, you should rent, buy, or borrow the wonderful Brazilian film Gabriela from the early 80s, starring Sonia Braga and Marcello Mastroianni. Great film (sexy, funny, sweet - and Marcello Mastroianni!) that illustrates what happens when you get what you wish for.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

It's just a fantasy. The thing that always gets me is how so many people think the goal should be to make fantasies come true. But if a fantasy is realized, then it's no longer a fantasy and you have to find a new one.

Some -- maybe even most! -- fantasies should stay fantasies. I really don't think many women with rape or gang bang fantasies actually want to see those things happen.

I used to think this... And then I started visiting non-monogamy sites, and AFF, and fet life... And now I feel like everyone but me is living out their kinky fantasies every day

I'm actually cool with the idea of Hotwife stuff, IF the guy involved is someone I'd want to sleep with anyway. It's just that people I want to sleep with are rare, and guys who want to have sex while your husband watches are rare, and the intersection of those two is almost non existent. I think it's population is one, my first ex, which is why 3 years later I'm still bitter about that wifely veto

Sometimes, I really miss monogamy. Not necessarily having my partner be monogamous, my partner having others has not caused any of the difficulties I feared. But having one partner myself. I was *good* at that. Multiple partners... I struggle, a lot. On the one hand, I can't do casual, I can barely deal with stopping halfway up the escalator. On the other, I get stressed and exhausted trying to manage two full time relationships. And I really miss all the me time and friend time I used to get while Andy was with Stephanie.

Just in a mood today, I guess. I'm trying to figure out this week with Dag. I offered 3 nights I'm available, but none of those work for him. Part of me wants to say, ok, schedules just don't line up this week, we'll grab a quick lunch maybe, plan better next week. But then, I know we will both be anxious and insecure if we don't get a real date this week Ugh.

If he thought having sex with you in broad daylight on the steps in front of your local courthouse would be hot, would you be sad or feel inferior in some way because you couldn't do that unless you were willing to be arrested and in the headlines?

Now THAT, I'd soooo do... Hmmm, thanks for the idea

 

[KC43]

Um... I'm on AFF. And FetLife. And so on. And I don't think I'm spending a whole lot of time getting my kink on, or getting my fuck on for that matter. I'm just saying, you are far from the only woman on those sites who isn't having tons of sex and kink with tons of guys.

I have a different definition of "slut," though, so I do consider myself one: A woman who enjoys sex and has as much of it as she wants without feeling ashamed. Note, please, that my definition, at least, doesn't include anything about number of partners or whether they're casual or whatever... only about enjoying sex and having as much of it as you *want*.

Hubby and Woody both love that I love sex. (When I'm able to say I do. Sometimes I regress back into shame and not wanting it and such, though thanks in large part to Woody those times have become extremely few and far between.) Hubby enjoys the "hotwife" type of idea, I guess; he has said that knowing I have sex with other guys is a turn on for him, kind of a "you get to fuck her, but I get to keep her" thing. Woody thinks I should have more sexual partners because he thinks it would be good for me to be able to explore my sexual self more fully than I can do with only him (Hubby has declined to explore anything).

But although they both seem to like the thought of me fucking other guys, and both enjoy it immensely and praise me when I get my slut on with them, neither would ever think I'm a prude or whatever solely because they're the only ones I have sex with. Above all, they want me to be happy and to be comfortable with myself, and to feel good and have fun.

Aside from that... YOUR opinion of you is the only one that matters, and comparing yourself to others is a sure road to madness. Sure, there are women who get gang-banged every weekend by half a dozen guys while their husband films it (seriously... I actually personally know a woman who does that), but there are also women who don't have sex at all, or who have it but hate it, or who have never had sex with anyone except their husband. Etc. Compare you to you. Do what makes you happy. The hell with the rest.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

Aside from that... YOUR opinion of you is the only one that matters, and comparing yourself to others is a sure road to madness.

Thanks for this KC I really do drive myself mad sometimes with the comparisons. Not just about casual sex - about everything. That's something I need to quit doing.

So, I've been thinking, and I've noticed something interesting...

The more I write about my relationship with Dag, the more dissatisfied I am with how it's going. It's not just a case of focusing on the negatives, either. It's that when I write about him here, I try to somehow frame our relationship in a way that's similar to other poly relationships I see. I use terms like "partner" that, frankly, don't fit. I emphasize our romantic relationship, even though in real life, that's the least important way we relate to each other.

Even just reading about other people's poly situations - it trips me up, confuses me, with the comparisons I make. Like I'll read about how someone else feels about their boyfriend, and think, I guess I'm supposed to feel that way. Or hear about how excited people are to get more time with their partners, and wonder, what's wrong with me for not wanting that?

The truth is, I'm completely content with how things are between me and Dag. I like the way Andy and I handle our other relationships. But I still get the "I'm doing it wrong" feelings sometimes.

I can't tell if others experience things completely differently from me, or if we're just using different words to describe the same thing

The whole "non escalator relationship" still escapes me. I mean, I get it, I'm living it. But the words confuse me. I think of anything non escalator as friends-with-benefits. What is the difference, what am I missing??? Though, I think my use of FWB is waaaay off from how most people see it. I don't see FWB as casual, because I don't see friendship as casual. I love my friends. I'd do anything for them. Maybe others are imagining the benefits tacked on to a less intense friendship? Like, acquaintances with benefits?

I honestly think the reason Andy and I handle poly so well is that we have a great model in how we balance our marriage and our friendships. And we handle sexual/romantic friendships and platonic friendships the same way. If Dag invites me away for a weekend, it's the same as if my BFF D invited me. The fact that I'm sleeping with Dag doesn't mean there are special rules about overnights or trips. It's just, "hey, Person invited me to do X, isn't that cool, any conflicts on the calendar?" If Andy spends every day for a week with Steph because she had knee surgery, I don't see it differently from his doing that for any other friend. If it would be ok to do Thing X (have them over at the house, travel with them, whatever) with a platonic friend, it's ok to do it with a friend you're fucking.

Of course the flip side is, friends we are fucking don't get special treatment, either. If we wouldn't do something for a strictly platonic friend, we won't do it for Dag, Steph, or Anna Louise, either. (Andy doesn't think twice about texting or calling me if I'm out with K - why should he refrain from doing it while I'm with Dag?) I think this is where I take a sharp turn away from the poly norm. I don't elevate my "boyfriend" over my "regular friends". They are all people I love. Which probably wouldn't be too controversial if I didn't view my relationship with my husband as being in a completely dimension. But, I do. He's my partner in life. That's way beyond friendship, romance, sex. It's a completely different kind of love, for me. I'm not sure if that's because I value having a life partner so much? Or because I am not really poly?

In the end though - it doesn't matter if I'm poly. It matters if I'm happy. And I am. And so are my husband, his friend-girls, and my boyfriend

 

[FallenAngelina]

I think of anything non escalator as friends-with-benefits.

Have you had other partners previous to Dag? I ask because my experience is that non-escalator relationships vary greatly according to the particular partners. I have two wonderful FWB (benefits on hold right now) with whom I have never had romance and I have a BF relationship that is very romantic. Romance and desire for intense contact is present in one, but not the others. All of my relationships are non-escalator.

Re: Fetlife - spending time there, you do get the feeling that the whole world is out indulging their wildest sexual dreams every weekend, but I think that KC43 is right that much more accurately, most people have quite safe and predictable sex lives. The people that come to our little forum here (and certainly those on Fetlife) are a self-selected group of adventure seekers. Fetlife sure is a great source for ideas, though, if one is so inclined.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

Have you had other partners previous to Dag? I ask because my experience is that non-escalator relationships vary greatly according to the particular partners. I have two wonderful FWB (benefits on hold right now) with whom I have never had romance and I have a BF relationship that is very romantic. Romance and desire for intense contact is present in one, but not the others. All of my relationships are non-escalator.

I had two long term (6 months and 1 year) relationships before I met Dag... And aside from Dag being a much better fit for me the feelings were about the same.

I just posted something in the Romantic Love thread... I'm starting to realize that I don't really know what romantic love is For me, it's the relationship escalator. Romance is the desire to lose yourself completely in someone, merge yourself with them, be with them forever no matter what. But, obviously that's not the definition others use

It's confusing for me because all of my close platonic friendships look and feel like what others seem to be calling romantic love. I've mentioned Friend NRE in passing, but it's a very real thing for me, just as intense as sexual NRE. When I meet someone I click with - I just want to be with them All. The. Time. Cuddle them. Kiss them. Sleep curled up with them. Dive into their brain and learn every last thing about them.

My friendships - even the decades long ones - stay pretty intense. My BFF and I saw each other every single day for 6 years. We'd meet up to walk at 6 am, then arrange our workdays to maximize our time together until our husbands got home. Weekends sucked because we only got a few hours together. When she moved eight hours away for school - damn, we almost lost it, both of us. (She moves back in less than a year!!! ) But there was zero sexual interest, we're both straight.

I'm the same way with other friends, guys and girls, though less time intense. But K and R and Andy and I have a constant group text going. We spend holidays together. We have no secrets. We all cuddle together. It's intense love, but not sexual. There's jealousy and stress when new friends enter the picture, but we work through it. (I had a crying fit the other day, because K has this friend who annoys the hell out of me, and lately she's around CONSTANTLY and wrecking my K+Claire time )

So... I have a REALLY hard time teasing out what, besides the full blown, let's ride the escalator all the way to the top feeling, separates "romantic love" and "platonic love". I love K and Dag in the same way - I just only fuck one of them -and honestly the difference between my love for them and my love for Andy is the "til death do us part" stuff.

I can't tell if I'm aromantic and clueless, just wondering "what is this romantic love shit anyway?"... Or if I'm so panromantic that all of my close relationships are romantic

 

[icesong]

It's confusing for me because all of my close platonic friendships look and feel like what others seem to be calling romantic love. I've mentioned Friend NRE in passing, but it's a very real thing for me, just as intense as sexual NRE. When I meet someone I click with - I just want to be with them All. The. Time. Cuddle them. Kiss them. Sleep curled up with them. Dive into their brain and learn every last thing about them.

Honestly? that's more intensity than I want from my *romantic* relationships, let alone my non-romantic ones. I do miss ongoing chat conversation, but I don't *want* to know every last thing about my partners or friends instantaneously because then I get bored!

Or if I'm so panromantic that all of my close relationships are romantic

What you're describing definitely sounds more romantic to me than my friendships!

 

[KC43]

I've tried before to explain the way I see the differences between friendship and romantic love, or between "love" and "in love"... I have too much of a borderline migraine to try again right now. LOL. But basically... For me, anyway, both friendship and romantic love can be very intense. I don't have many friends. The few I do have, the ones I consider true friends and not just "friendly acquaintances," I can honestly say I love.

But I don't want to be with my friends all the time. I like talking to them, and I like seeing them. Not so much physical affection, but that's because physical affection in general isn't really my thing. I like seeing them, but I don't feel driven to make huge efforts to see them unless it's been a while.

Romantic love, for me, first of all includes strong physical attraction--and actually acting on it. But it also includes thinking "I want this person to be part of my life forever, and to be able to hug and kiss them and still have my heart skip a beat when I see them when I'm 90." Note, though, that being "part of my life forever" doesn't necessitate an escalator. Woody and I have committed to each other that we want to be in each other's lives for the long haul, but an escalator isn't going to happen with him. If he brings someone into his life as a completely entangled partner, it has to be someone who isn't entangled with anyone else; I don't qualify.

On a more surface standpoint, I think FWB vs. romantic partner is, more than anything, a matter of labels. During the brief time I dated Boots (so brief I keep forgetting I dated him, to be honest...), after a couple of weeks he said he couldn't be in a relationship with me but wanted to be FWB... but the way he acted toward me, and the time we spent together, was more romantic than with some of the other partners I've had, including Hubby. And Hubby, though unquestionably a romantic partner by designation since we're married, often feels more like an occasional FWB; I consider him more of a friend than someone I'm in love with, but we fuck.

 

[Reverie]

I once got into a very puzzling conversation with The Ex about this. It seemed he didn't understand "romantic love" the same way that I did. For me, there's friendship, there's sexual attraction, and then there's romantic love, which—since we were trying to define that term—in that conversation I referred to as something that grew out of "The Sparkle."

He was very puzzled about what the difference was between a "romantic partner" and a "friend that you fuck." I told him it was "The Sparkle," which is kind of like that feeling of wanting to be so close to someone that you crawl inside of them and live there forever. He didn't get what the difference was between THAT and sexual attraction. He said that, for him, friendship + sexual attraction = romantic love. And for me, that equals FWB. Romantic love has that extra element.

It's super, super rare for me to want to be FWB with a guy. Usually I only want to bother fucking them if there's also Sparkle there, or if I'm in a group situation and feeling playful/generous.

Before I realized I was bi, I definitely had Sparkle for Oona—I wanted to be with her constantly, to be cuddled up to her, almost to BE her—but I hadn't yet worked out my sexual attraction to women beyond fantasy. And I almost never, ever get Sparkle for any women. She was a rare case and one that never ended up actually turning fully romantic because of where I was in my developing sexuality and her being even closer to straight than I am.

I love how different everyone is, and how articulate everyone HERE is about their different experiences.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

"I want this person to be part of my life forever, and to be able to hug and kiss them and still have my heart skip a beat when I see them when I'm 90."

I told him it was "The Sparkle," which is kind of like that feeling of wanting to be so close to someone that you crawl inside of them and live there forever. He didn't get what the difference was between THAT and sexual attraction. He said that, for him, friendship + sexual attraction = romantic love. And for me, that equals FWB. Romantic love has that extra element.

See, these are things I feel for my friends. (I'm using "friends" to mean a half dozen or so very close people - besties ) I absolutely get The Sparkle with them, it's what I mean by Friend NRE. And like NRE, Friend Sparkle deepens into something wonderful and loving, where you are still head over heels, but instead of just thinking your friend is the most amazing person ever, you know for sure I absolutely want my friends around when I'm 90, still amazing me with their awesomeness. We actually talk about it - where we will all retire, how we will make space for visits no matter where we end up.

If I don't Sparkle with somebody after hanging out with them a few times, I'm not going to be motivated to invest in the friendship, and we will probably never grow close. But sometimes I get that Omg! Coolest person Ever! Must Spend Every Minute Together! feeling and ... well, that's how I met all my close friends. It's NRE, but without the sexual attraction.

It's super, super rare for me to want to be FWB with a guy. Usually I only want to bother fucking them if there's also Sparkle there, or if I'm in a group situation and feeling playful/generous.

Yeah, same. And I really feel like I need Friend Sparkle as a prerequisite for Sexy Sparkle. They can happen simultaneously, but that's kind of rare for me. Usually I meet someone, fall in Friend Love with them, and then maybe there's sexual desire.

(Some people have said, oh, that's Demi-sexual. I'm not sure. I can absolutely see someone on the street and be like, Damn, he's hot It's just not, "Damn, he's hot, I want to fuck his brains out." It's more like, "Damn, he's hot, if I got to know him, and he was smart and sweet and kind, and we became close friends, I would totally fuck his brains out.")

What you're describing definitely sounds more romantic to me than my friendships!

I have always wondered if my Friend Feelings were ... On the heavy side of normal Like, I'll frequently read someone explaining poly with "well you don't get jealous if your friends make new friends..." and think, "Hell yes I do!" I very much have to manage my jealous and possessive feelings about close friends, just like with sexual partners.

So, I'm still left trying to figure out what makes my feelings for Andy unique. I honestly think it's that, all the "crawl inside the person and live there forever" stuff - I actually get to DO THAT with him. I know his every thought and feeling. I can act on the "don't want to be apart for five minutes" feelings. I can carry out every last daydreamy "let's do this thing together!" plan, whether it's spending an entire weekend in bed or climbing a mountain. With my friends - even Dag, even my BFF - there are some limits to those things, just by virtue of not living together and not having merged lives. With Andy, no limits.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

I have been slacking on the writing lately. But not on the thinking It's actually been helpful to let the thoughts just simmer in my brain for a few days. I've figured out a couple of things...

First, my anxiety about future metamours. I wrote a little something on Reverie's blog about this the other day. Why am I fine with every metamour (or even potential) I've ever had, and yet anxious to the point of panic about new ones? In essence, I assume everyone I don't know yet is batshit crazy. Not just needy, or selfish, or a cowgirl - burn my house down crazy. Which sounds bizarre, but 99% of my family is crazy (and more than one has tried to burn down a house, lol). It's just ingrained in my brain to treat everyone as a potential psycho until they prove otherwise.

Case in point - Steph asked Andy to go with her to her daughter's college graduation. He said he'd check with me. I was like, what??? Since when do we check in about that stuff? IT'S HER DAUGHTER'S GRADUATION. You'd better go. And you should have known better than to think we had anything more important than that on the calendar But... Even having just had that conversation, if asked how I'd feel about Andy dating someone who wanted him to be her plus one at family events, I'd panic. Because the metamour in my mind is a crazy lunatic who's plotting something. Sigh. My brain sucks sometimes.

Second, casual sex. I FINALLY figured out what my boundary is - the dividing line between "FWB and I'm cool with it" and "too casual for me". I need to know that there is a friendship independent of the sex. That if we stop having sex, we'll still be friends. That sounds so basic, doesn't it? But I've found that a lot of guys who want a FWB only want the Friend if they're getting the Benefits, too. That really bugs me.

I went out on soooo many dates with guys where we clicked as friends, but the sexual attraction was not there. (I can be great friends with all different types, but my sexual type is ridiculously narrow.) Almost every single one of them wanted nothing to do with me once they realized they weren't going to get laid. That shit hurts. I really only want to sleep with people who like me enough to hang out with me and be there for me - even if they never see me naked.

And yes, I get that people have limited time and energy, and these guys had every right to focus theirs on women who could be a romantic partner. It's just - the very fact that they think that way, that they prioritize "who will fuck me" over "who I enjoy spending time with the most", means that they're not right for me.

So, tonight, I'm feeling incredibly grateful. For Andy's decidedly not psycho friend-girl. And for my boyfriend who I know would still love me like crazy even if I had a psycho moment myself and decided I didn't want to screw him anymore.

 

[IndieSolo]

Second, casual sex. I FINALLY figured out what my boundary is - the dividing line between "FWB and I'm cool with it" and "too casual for me". I need to know that there is a friendship independent of the sex. That if we stop having sex, we'll still be friends. That sounds so basic, doesn't it? But I've found that a lot of guys who want a FWB only want the Friend if they're getting the Benefits, too. That really bugs me.

I went out on soooo many dates with guys where we clicked as friends, but the sexual attraction was not there. (I can be great friends with all different types, but my sexual type is ridiculously narrow.) Almost every single one of them wanted nothing to do with me once they realized they weren't going to get laid. That shit hurts. I really only want to sleep with people who like me enough to hang out with me and be there for me - even if they never see me naked.

I totally get this. I think the issue is that too many people are just confused about the term "friend with benefits" and they think it equates with "fuck buddy." They're not the same things! This is something I've had problems with, too. Although, in my lifetime, I've had tons of casual sex, one night stands, etc., and I wouldn't be adverse to that happening on occasion still, when I say I enjoy having a FWB kind of relationship, I mean that it is not a "totally entwined" partnership. A FWB, to me, has rather relaxed parameters as far as frequency, scheduling, and the areas of each other's lives in which we have input or involvement, BUT it would have to be with someone I genuinely like as a person, with whom I enjoy conversing, sharing deep intimate things about myself, spending time together, doing fun things... and having sex. And just because someone is a FWB does not mean we cannot love each other -- I love my friends.

So, for me, with a FWB, the Friend part comes first. But a lot of people, guys primarily, see the term and think Benefits come first, and they don't even care if the Friends part comes to fruition or not because basically what they really want is a fuck buddy, where it's all about sex. "Thanks for getting me off, now go." My conclusion about seeking a Friend with Benefits relationship is that it is something that can really only evolve out of an existing relationship. Either someone is a friend first and eventually we get to having sex and continue the friendship, or it's someone who is a casual sex partner that becomes a friend.

I don't think you can realistically look for someone to instantly be a Friend with Benefits because friendship takes time to develop and grow. I can't imagine meeting someone on OKCupid and saying, "Okay, let's be "Friends with Benefits now," because... well, then what? How do you create the friendship? My friendships have never been forced like that, they came out of getting to know someone with whom I had some interactions or connection (co-workers, neighbors, mutual interests, etc.) but I couldn't expect to suddenly be someone's friend without some basis upon which to build that friendship. Make sense?

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

when I say I enjoy having a FWB kind of relationship, I mean that it is not a "totally entwined" partnership. A FWB, to me, has rather relaxed parameters as far as frequency, scheduling, and the areas of each other's lives in which we have input or involvement, BUT it would have to be with someone I genuinely like as a person, with whom I enjoy conversing, sharing deep intimate things about myself, spending time together, doing fun things... and having sex. And just because someone is a FWB does not mean we cannot love each other -- I love my friends.

This, exactly. It's how I see my relationship with Dag (and how I felt about my exes before him, for that matter). Though I worry sometimes that Dag sees us differently? I am trying to let go of that worry, because obviously how Dag frames things in his head is not something I can control.

I don't think you can realistically look for someone to instantly be a Friend with Benefits because friendship takes time to develop and grow. I can't imagine meeting someone on OKCupid and saying, "Okay, let's be "Friends with Benefits now," because... well, then what? How do you create the friendship? My friendships have never been forced like that, they came out of getting to know someone with whom I had some interactions or connection (co-workers, neighbors, mutual interests, etc.) but I couldn't expect to suddenly be someone's friend without some basis upon which to build that friendship. Make sense?

Laughing because I found Dag and my ex on okcupid For me it was a matter of just moving quickly in the friend-stuff and very slowly in the sex-stuff. Like, friends only for a few months. Grabbing drinks, or coffee, or lunch...going for hikes and bike rides... talking for hours. Of course, there were also dozens of guys I started down that path with, and it didn't work out, because we didn't really click as friends. And the guys I liked as friends but nope on the sex - as mentioned above, only one is actually still my friend.

Going slow worked for me, because it takes me a few months of friendship to figure out if I want to sleep with someone. It actually didn't bother a lot of guys, either. Partly because they were mostly also "get to know people really well before sex" types...

And partly because a lot of what I consider friendly behavior feels like dating to most people I tried to take that relationships survey today and got completely stuck on lifetime number of kissing partners. I hold hands, kiss, and cuddle/snuggle/massage everyone I meet. Well, OK, not work people. At least not at work, lol. But even casual friends, if they are touchy people like me. I've French kissed every close friend I ever had, male and female. I will usually end a night of socializing sitting on someone's lap and rubbing each other's shoulders. Might be a friend, might be someone I met that night and clicked with.

I just don't consider that stuff sexual. It's arousing if I do it with my husband or another guy I am fucking. It's just physically nice, in a not-at-all-sexy way, if it's with a female friend or platonic guy friend. (Or a kid, or a dog.) It's funny, I never thought before that being cuddly and kissy with friends was unusual, because the people I become close to are all the same way

 

[FallenAngelina]

I need to know that there is a friendship independent of the sex. That if we stop having sex, we'll still be friends. That sounds so basic, doesn't it? But I've found that a lot of guys who want a FWB only want the Friend if they're getting the Benefits, too. That really bugs me.

I went out on soooo many dates with guys where we clicked as friends, but the sexual attraction was not there. (I can be great friends with all different types, but my sexual type is ridiculously narrow.) Almost every single one of them wanted nothing to do with me once they realized they weren't going to get laid.

A guy who dates you and finds out you're not attracted to him sexually will stop dating you because he is hurt, not necessarily because he didn't want to be friends without sex. You've told him that he's not sexually attractive to you and that stings for many people so they split and I can't blame them. Doesn't mean that they are only interested in sex and not friendship. It only means that they are hurt.

A guy who is a friend that you fuck sometimes, then for whatever reason stop fucking, he knows that you are sexually attracted to him and he could very well be fine with a no-sex friendship. I have a friend like that. He and I may or may never fuck again, but he knows that I find him sexually appealing, so he is cool with hanging out as buddies only.

 

[FallenAngelina]

I've French kissed every close friend I ever had, male and female. ....I just don't consider that stuff sexual.

Might be helpful (I hope) for you to know that French kissing is a sexual experience for almost everyone (unless you're an ancient Roman.) Your friends are cool with it and that's great, but this is very unusual.

 

[IndieSolo]

It's funny, I never thought before that being cuddly and kissy with friends was unusual, because the people I become close to are all the same way

I have a hard time believing that you never thought this is unusual. It's almost like you're saying that if you went to meet a couple of girl friends at the mall, you felt totally free to lay big wet kisses on their lips in public, not thinking that anyone around you would find it weird, or never noticing that other people didn't do this.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

Hmmm. Well, I wouldn't French kiss anybody at the mall, even my husband Its definitely a private space, know-everyone-around-you thing. Last weekend, for example, I told K's husband R that he was the awesome-ist and ran up and kissed him, and he picked me up, spun me around, kissed me back with tongue. No one gave a shit. K was over on the sofa taking make out selfies with our friend M for a while. If I share a bed with K or M, I'll spoon and snuggle. We just... Lack boundaries. All of my friend groups over the years (high school, college, now my friends here in TX) have been like that. I guess I figured most people were, when they were alone with their besties.

But I hold hands with my girlfriends at the mall. Kiss them closed mouth on the lips in greeting. Basically the same level of PDA I'd do with Dag or Andy. Is that weird

ETA I do realize French kissing is... more than friendly... to most people. I wouldn't do it with someone I didn't know was fine with it, and their spouse or partner was too. Cuddling, tho? Hand holding? Arms around each other? Is that stuff "romance only" to most people? Because, to me, if you'd do it with your kid, it's not an always sexual thing. Having a friend sit on my lap and cuddle is no more sexual than having a friends toddler sit on my lap and cuddle.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

A guy who dates you and finds out you're not attracted to him sexually will stop dating you because he is hurt, not necessarily because he didn't want to be friends without sex. You've told him that he's not sexually attractive to you and that stings for many people so they split and I can't blame them. Doesn't mean that they are only interested in sex and not friendship. It only means that they are hurt.

This, I kind of get, and kind of don't. I can see how if you are sexually attracted to someone and it's not reciprocated - that's disappointing. Maybe even disappointing enough you don't want to be around them. But ... Hurt?

The fact that I'm not sexually attracted to someone doesn't mean I can't objectively see them as a very attractive person. Is me saying some version of "you're gorgeous but not my type" any more hurtful than my gay male friends saying that to me? I don't think the fact that E finds me un- fuckable makes me gross or ugly. He likes men, I'm not one, oh well. (We do French kiss, though. I'll joke that I wish I could turn him straight, and he'll swoop over, make out for ten seconds, and say, "nah, sorry girl!")

It may be that I'm honestly sexually into so few people - and such a narrow type - and I assume others are the same - that it seems logical to me that 99% of people will be meh or nope about sex with me. For their to be even a potential sexual interest, I need the person to be someone I'd be friends with, AND meet a ridiculous list of must-haves and deal breakers. (I kinda hate that about myself, but my libido will not listen to logic ) I guess if you are someone who is into sex with more/wider variety of people, you'd see things very differently, and "not sexually attracted" could feel like a judgement.

I also think my self esteem is tied MUCH more to whether people like me, respect me, think I'm funny and smart, etc, than whether I am sexually attractive. I can shrug off a guy not wanting to fuck me. Not wanting to hear my opinion on the latest Serial? That is a bigger ouch.

 

[FallenAngelina]

I guess if you are someone who is into sex with more/wider variety of people, you'd see things very differently, and "not sexually attracted" could feel like a judgement.

Many men see it your way and can hear "not my type" and go on their merry way. I'm sure many of the guys you dated felt that way. They went on their merry way, but I can assure you that many an ego was bruised. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that 99.9% of men will give zero energy to a woman they are attracted to who has made it clear that she does not return the feeling, whether they are bruised, hurt or merely disappointed. This doesn't mean that those men are not into friendships with women and wouldn't be interested in a friendship with you under different circumstances. If you date a guy and "reject" him sexually, he is just not going to want to be your friend. That's a generalization and there are certainly exceptions (the .01%) but the vast majority of men won't go for "let's be friends" after they have played their hand. Women will; men - no way.

I hope that no-one crucifies me for generalizing. Of course I'm generalizing. I'm explaining this phenomenon. Men are generally very different than women when it comes to "let's just be friends" when they express a sexual interest in the woman and she clearly does not feel the same. i'm gonna further generalize and say that the few men who go for "friends" in this situation are hoping all the while that the woman will change her mind.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

I hope that no-one crucifies me for generalizing. Of course I'm generalizing. I'm explaining this phenomenon. Men are generally very different than women when it comes to "let's just be friends" when they express a sexual interest in the woman and she clearly does not feel the same. i'm gonna further generalize and say that the few men who go for "friends" in this situation are hoping all the while that the woman will change her mind.

Karen, I think you're probably right on this. It's sad to me, but it is what it is I encountered a lot of guys hoping I'd change my mind. While I never feel an immediate "yes" on jumping into bed with someone, I do know right away if it's a "maybe" or a "never". The guys who fell into the "never" category but seemed cool, I extended an offer of hanging out as friends - and most eagerly accepted - but when they realized I actually wasn't interested, boom, gone.

Eh, it's dating, I guess. I really do wish I was into more people sexually - or at least that my type wasn't so rare among my friends, and non monogamous guys in general. I also think I'm not what most poly guys are into, but I'm basing that mostly on the nothing-like-me women I see them date

And I do recognize that I'm, um, an outlier in terms of how much value I place on friendship, and how close I am with my friends. That guys probably don't realize how much friend rejection hurts me, any more than I'm aware of how much sexual rejection hurts them. The line between friends and partners is blurry to me. And I don't see one as better or more important than the other. So it's hard for me to grasp, that when people have an attitude of "I'll take this role, but not that one", they're not just rejecting me outright.