Looking for advice/perspective

[Murasaki]

Marcus, I didn't feel like quoting anyone else, so I'm admitting up front to being lazy. And since I do disagree with some of what you are saying, (mostly based on my perception of the OP's posts) I decided to share at least that much of my thoughts today.

The question should be raised, is the irritation commensurate with the crime?

The amount of irritation would depend on a few factors for me. 1) How late were they? 2) Did I attempt to get in contact, and get no reply? 3) When the late party arrives, is a reasonable explanation given, e.g., "Sorry, I was driving, and hurrying home, so didn't stop on the way"?

All I'm suggesting is to keep things in perspective and to be honest about the nature of the agitation and seeming need to be given regular updates.

It doesn't seem to me as if anyone is asking for regular updates. Just that they want to know you are running later then you intended. And this is wanted due to your stated time of arrival.

People should check their motivations when they get annoyed by people being late. Is the principle of "You said 8 and it's 8:15" really worth the irritation, if there was no harm or delay caused? Is it even relevant in the grand scheme of things? I say... not remotely.

I can't speak for anyone else, but in my case if you are 20 minutes late, I assume traffic was heavy, or some other traffic issue, an unexpected detour or whatever. A few hours? Maybe, depends on the explanation. "I was in a loud venue, lost track of time, can't hear the phone." But to follow several hours of lateness with, "It's not my fault," sounds like a whiny child to me. It feels like the "late" party needs to grow up and take some responsibility.

When I went out to a swingers club I told Kuroi when I would be home by. When I realized I wouldn't be home by that time, I sent a "Still here. not leaving yet, having a good time" message. Actually, I sent the message a few mins before I planned to be home, and the venue is at least 30 mins away from home. I did not have any specific plans laid out, but Kuroi was expecting me home at the reasonable hour of 1 am because I said I would be.

If I can't keep my word/promises on small things, how can I expect other people to trust that I will keep my word/promise on the bigger things?

For example, the "friend" I went to the swingers club with is used to the people in their circle not being true to there word. So becoming friends with me is a refreshingly pleasant change. I was told that my friend was glad that I keep my word like I do, because it means we can make solid plans and nothing gets dropped (for one). It also means this friend can rely on me in ways they can't rely on other people in their life.

Disclaimer: My mood right now is not the best, or even close to happy/neutral. So my perceived tone may be more negative than actually intended.

 

[Marcus]

Marcus I didn't feel like quoting anyone else, so I'm admitting up front to being lazy. And since I do disagree with some of what you are saying, (mostly based on my perception of the OP's posts) I decided to share at least that much of my thoughts today.

I don't post on these boards without being emotionally prepared for people to not only disagree, but be ripping pissed off at me for having the audacity to disagree with them.

So, all good.

The amount of irritation would depend on a few factors for me. 1) How late were they? 2) Did I attempt to get in contact, and get no reply? 3) When the late party arrives, is a reasonable explanation given, e.g., "Sorry, I was driving, was hurrying home so didn't stop on the way"?

The interesting thing about your post and those before you is... no one seems to be irritated about the actual impact of someone being late. The only thing I've seen presented is simply "Nuh uh... you said X and you did Y... therefore nuh uh!!"

Again, I am making a distinction between someone causing harm or delay by being late, and someone merely rupturing the purely imaginary world of "But it's just right" by being later than they said.

Being delayed and injured is different from being intellectually "injured" by not perfectly abiding by an arbitrary and irrelevant rule.

I'll stop repeating it because it seems that this is one of those issues on which I and all other posters need to disagree.

If I can't keep my word/promises on small things, how can I expect other people to trust that I will keep my word/promise on the bigger things?

Ok, wait. If someone accidentally and lightly bumps someone in line in the grocery store and doesn't apologize, this means that they are... what? Likely to murder, even though they said they wouldn't?

How does this support the topic at hand, exactly? This is what is called a slippery slope argument, which would seem to support the assertion, but merely opens a can of worms entirely unrelated to the topic at hand in attempt to make it seem more severe.

 

[YouAreHere]

The interesting thing about your post and those before you is no one seems to be irritated about the actual impact of someone being late. The only thing I've seen presented is simply, "Nuh uh, you said X and you did Y... therefore nuh uh!!"

I had a friend in college who was notorious for telling us he'd be in X place at Y time and not follow through. Once, to the point where a friend of his from work met the rest of us at the agreed-upon time and place, with this guy nowhere to be found. We finally found him at our final destination and he just shrugged and said, "Well, this is where we were going, anyway."

I never made plans with him again after that.

To me, it's courtesy. If you don't want to say when you'll be back, just say you may be out all night. If you give me a time, and then disregard it, why even say it at all? To mollify me? Not gonna work if you're just going to lie about it anyway.

I would get irritated if someone felt they had to tell me something, then completely disregard it. If we're going to agree upon something, then honor it. If you don't want to tell me what you really want to do, well, that's telling in and of itself, and maybe we have a deeper-seated issue.

And, after rereading this last paragraph, I have no idea if I'm actually agreeing with you or not, Marcus. I think I need to go home.

(And yes, I've been there, done that, so I'm not trying to be hoity-toity about it. Avoidance behavior sucks, and it's difficult to unlearn, but I think I'm getting there.)

 

[Marcus]

To me, it's courtesy. If you don't want to say when you'll be back, just say you may be out all night. If you give me a time, and then disregard it, why even say it at all? To mollify me? Not gonna work if you're just going to lie about it anyway.

Again, this is not a black-and-white discussion, but a situation-by-situation issue.

I also have a buddy who is notorious for not showing up, showing up late, or showing up randomly. This is not something I admire and it is, in fact, a personality trait which is frowned upon by our crew. The result of this pattern of behavior is that he is no longer included in our regular get-togethers, and is not considered even when he is invited. But... BUT!!! this is because he was hindering us... we were waiting on him... we planned on his presence at the party, not simply because "Clocks are very important for no apparent reason."

This is a pattern of behavior which suggests that this person doesn't care about what is being planned, nor the impact he is having on other people, and should be addressed accordingly. This is also a situation which I don't feel relates to the original discussion.

 

[WhatHappened]

Again, I am making a distinction between someone causing harm or delay by being late and someone merely rupturing the purely imaginary world of "but it's just right" by being later than they said.

If someone habitually does not keep their word, that harms the relationship. It damages other people's ability to trust, and rely on, what they say.

If you don't find this harmful, then I guess you'd have no issue with someone repeatedly failing to follow through on what they said. Others do have a problem with it.

 

[PipersGirl]

Marcus,

We appear very different, but in reality I don't think we're as far apart as it seems (at least on some things!). I do enjoy your postings. They have exposed me to a different perspective and assisted me in thinking through some things. Anyway, going between your post...

Again, this is not a black-and-white discussion but a situation-by-situation issue.

... I agree it should be situational. But who determines if the situation warrants getting upset or irritated?

But... BUT!!! this is because he was hindering us... we were waiting on him... we planned on his presence at the party.... not simply because "Clocks are very important for no apparent reason."

So being late is only a problem if it causes a hindrance to the person or people waiting on the late individual? It's not about the clock being so important. It's about knowing that someone will keep his/her word. Like your crew did, if someone is continually late, I change the way I interact with them.

This is a pattern of behavior which suggests that this person doesn't care about what is being planned, nor the impact he is having on other people, and should be addressed accordingly.

I also agree with this. Though I get the feeling, and correct me if I'm wrong, that an "impact" for you is something tangible such as being late for an event and/or causing others to be late. And that is an impact, but the impact can also be intangible. My partner and I have limited time together, and if either one of us is late, it impacts both of us, even if all we were planning was to eat in and watch a movie.

Of course, this goes back to the situation-- there have been times when one of us was late. We also let the other know. I'm sure it will happen in the future and we'll handle it the same way. But it's not a regular occurrence. We each value and respect the others time, and we value and respect our time together.

So, it circles back to courtesy, for me, and taking someone at their word. Plus in my particular case, I would be quite worried if D were late and didn't call, because his regular behavior is to be early for everything.

Piper

 

[PipersGirl]

I'm not picking on you, Marcus! It's just that your posts are thought-provoking, and some of this made me a little... sad.

The only thing I've seen presented is simply, "Nuh uh, you said X and you did Y... therefore nuh uh!!"

What's wrong with expecting people to do what they say they are going to do?

Again, I am making a distinction between someone causing harm or delay by being late, and someone merely rupturing the purely imaginary world of "but it's just right" by being later than they said.

Have we become so jaded and cynical that we've not only accepted that people won't keep their word, but we actively expect them not to, and even make excuses for them, or take the blame on ourselves when we're bothered by it?

Being delayed and injured is different from being intellectually "injured" by not perfectly abiding by an arbitrary and irrelevant rule.

It's not the fact that an arbitrary or irrelevant "rule" has been broken, or that someone has been injured, "for real" or intellectually, that so many people have a problem with. It's the fact of saying X and then doing Y. This action that isn't important to you, unless it causes tangible "injury," is the very action that is important to many people. Can I trust this person to do what they say they are going to do?

I'll stop repeating it because it seems that this is one of those issues in which I and all other posters need to disagree on.

That may be true in this case. I do my best to be a realist. I do have a cynical streak, though it's tempered by my, perhaps naive, desire to see the best in people and give them the benefit of the doubt. I know that people don't always keep their word and we all make mistakes. I certainly don't expect perfection, as I can't give it. But I do expect honesty and respect.

 

[london]

There is a difference between someone saying that they will definitely be back for a particular thing they are doing with you and a rough expectation of when they suppose they will be back. You aren't injured if your partner is later home than they thought. You should be having your own life, not sat around clock watching. Let go. Really. They aren't solemnly swearing that they will be back at eight, just reckoning. Using their reckoning to judge them on a wider scale is very rigid and unfair. Judge them when they promise something, actually give their word, not just say in passing what their plans are. You don't own anyone except for yourself, so let people breathe without you imagining that they have slighted you by doing something without you. They are only escaping your control.

 

[Dirtclustit]

Again, this is not a black and white discussion but should be a situation by situation issue.

In regards to the OP, it is pretty much black and white, I know from your point of view you seem to believe she is overeacting, making mountains out of molehills, but from what I read, she explicitly stated is really is no big deal, she admitted it hurt when she spoke up and her concern was dismissed and he explained how despite what she feels, it really isn't a problem.

To me, from what I've read, it sounds like that essentially is what the post is about. She tried bringing up her concerns, they were invalid, so now she is wondering if this phenomena is going to be the cause for much bigger problems in the future

I understand that you are just squabbling and bickering with all the other people commenting on this post, that at this point it is less about your advice for her to listen to her boyfriend and understand that the real problem is some underlying insecurity that she is in denial about (which to be honest just sounds like her real problem echoing back again) so hopefully the OP understands that the issue you are bickering about may not be black and white, but hopefully she won't be listen to this nonsense and honestly subscribe to it.

Because when things are black and white, but the person is convinced that is not the case by those around them whom they are supposed to able to trust, it can be a lot to deal with emotionally, because if you believe the rational sounding distortions, it can be quite crazy making. And nobody should have to put up with that shit.

 

[PipersGirl]

There is a difference between someone saying that they will definitely be back for a particular thing they are doing with you, and a rough expectation of when they suppose they will be back. You aren't injured if your partner is later home than they thought. You should be having your own life, not sat around clock watching. Let go. Really. They aren't solemnly swearing that they will be back at eight, just reckoning. Using their reckoning to judge them on a wider scale is very rigid and unfair. Judge them when they promise something, actually give their word, not just say in passing what their plans are. You don't own anyone except for yourself, so let people breathe without you imagining that they have slighted you by doing something without you. They are only escaping your control.

I'm going to respond to this and then step back as we're going in circles and have really gotten away from the original question.

It goes back to this concept for me: say what you mean and mean what you say. There is a difference in saying "I'll be home around 8" versus "I'll be home at 8".

I have no desire to control nor own anyone but myself, so if you're not sure what time you'll be somewhere, that's fine; just say that.

No one has addressed this question posed by several posters: why give a time at all if you don't intend to be present at that time, or if you're not sure what time you'll be there?

And it's a huge assumption that I'm sitting around the house, staring at the clock, waiting for my partner, and feeling "slighted" because he is doing something without me. None of that is true.

I don't live with him and we have limited available time together, so we always have to plan when and where we're getting together. Like I said in a previous post, if either of us are late, it effects both of us. I might feel slighted if he's late for our planned date, depending on the circumstances. And I would feel slighted if he were late on a regular, consistent basis for our dates, especially if he doesn't call.

 

[bookbug]

People have mentioned the issue at hand as being more of an issue if it is a repeated pattern of behavior. The OP used the example of her SO not being home when her SO said he would be, but also stated it was one issue among others where she felt disrespected. We are not privy to what the other instances are, but it definitely a appears that she feels there is a pattern.

 

[london]

I don't live with my partners either, so them turning up after they said they would is effectively them being late for our date. Of course, not desirable. However, these people live together. He is not saying when he will be back for their date, he is saying when he will return to his base. That's the difference.

 

[Murasaki]

So, all good.

I’d rather argue some arbitrary point with you then deal with the whirlwind of emotions of breaking up with Kuroi. That being said, it seems prudent to be clear that I am in a heightened emotional state, and that the perceived tone may not be what I actually feel for this topic, versus what I’m feeling for other things going on. Glad to know you are unfazed.

The interesting thing about your post and those before you is... no one seems to be irritated about the actual impact of someone being late. The only thing I've seen presented is simply "Nuh uh, you said X and you did Y... therefore nuh uh!!"
Being delayed and injured is different from being intellectually "injured" by not perfectly abiding by an arbitrary and irrelevant rule.

It's giving me a time you'll be home, by regardless of where you are going or what you'll be doing, and not sticking to the time you set. Basically, if you set a time, keep that time, or let me know it changed. I may have made plans, but because you tell me you will be home, and I want to see you, I will be home by that time too.

When you say I’ll be home at/by X time, you are making plans to meet me at my place at X time. Which is why I respond with, “See you then”. Could just as easily have said, See you at Y place at X time.

I make my plans around what I know is happening in my world. So when someone I want to spend time with gives me a time they will be available, and where they will be, I expect to be able to see them at their stated location around the time they stated. Not doing so is an inconvenience to me, delaying anything we might get to do together by being excessively late. I'm not talking 15 mins, or even an hour.

These things are (like someone said elsewhere) not black and white. They are situation dependent. At least they are for me. For one thing, I have not previously, and I do not plan in the future to have an expected time of arrival at any destination on a date night/day. Some people like to PLAN, some like SPONTANEITY. While I am more of a planner, I understand and enjoy spontaneity, and being spontaneous during/on a date is usually lots of fun. I would not want to reduce someone else's ability to have that kind of enjoyment.

However, I have been the one to say I will be home sometime tonight, and not gotten home till after the sun came up. It is stressful for the other person, especially if they can not get in touch with you to find out if everything is actually ok. I got overly drunk, and slept it off at my friend's house. I did not communicate this to the person waiting at home for my return. Kuroi was anxiously waiting for me. It wasn’t a HUGE deal, but it was something that upset my partner. I try not to needlessly upset my partners.

Everyone responds to these kinds of things differently (as Marcus is pointing out). It is each person’s responsibility to know and understand how this type of thing affects their partner, so they can communicate accordingly. In other words, the underlying problem is one of communication, not so much the being late, but the understanding of what each person expects or wants in such a situation is lacking.

I think a part of the issue for the OP is that her partner followed being late, and asked about why, with “It was my date's fault." Um, no. I am responsible for myself; my date is not responsible for me. What was likely a minor irritation became bigger due to an attempt to not accept a mistake (in communication) was made.

Some of the problems for me moving into this is that, for lack of a better word, the rules keep changing.

. . .

But, in all these changes of what we wanted, they seemed to be changing to match the relationship he wants with this girl. Which is honestly, almost opposed to what I wanted, but I am still trying to work with it.

These here seem common in the beginnings of poly. Being accepting of the changing rules, and both partners being willing to communicate what they are feeling, what they want, what they need to each other (and any other partners they have) is very important.

The "Golden Nuggets" collection of threads (sometimes called the master thread) is a great place to gain knowledge and insight. There are lots of external links with good advice on communication, negotiation, rules/guideline of good, healthy non-monogamous relationships. OP, you and your partner should both read a lot of the materials found in those links. Then talk to each other about what you’ve learned, and what “rules” you want to change/adjust.

Be very clear on the types of communication you want/need/are comfortable with during date times. Take care that your thoughts for communication between you and your partner consider how their date feels, wants, and needs, as well. So if you feel it's ok to send a few messages while your partner is on a date, then be accepting of your partner receiving a few message from his date while out with you.

 

[Marcus]

You make some valid points, Murasaki, so I am inclined to discuss them. However, I am still of a mind to question the motivation of the disdain of the OP regarding "tardiness" or "But you said you'd do X." A blanket obsession for people sticking to their word is a worldview error, in my opinion.

It is delusional to think that every person we encounter will behave to the letter of how they said they would behave and it is unreasonable to be rigid about dealing with variation.

In my opinion, there is still more going on in this particular case.

Some people like to PLAN, some like SPONTANEITY. While I am more of a planner, I understand, and enjoy spontaneity, and being spontaneous during/on a date is usually lots of fun. I would not want to reduce someone elses ability to have that kind of enjoyment.

Agreed, it's also important to remember that this (like everything regarding human behavior) is a range. I consider myself more of a "planner," but I also find restrictions to be needlessly limiting. I could explain the shades of distinction, but I think it's clear enough to say that there is a wide range of personal preference possible here.

It is each person’s responsibility to know and understand how this type of thing affects their partner, so they can communicate accordingly. In other words the underlying problem is one of communication, not so much the being late, but that the understand of what each person expects or wants in such a situation is lacking.

Wonderful!

If tardiness is a huge trigger for me, I need to let people who might incur my wrath know that this is the case.​

​

If my partner shows themselves to be someone who does not hold punctuality in high regard then I need to make the appropriate adjustments.​

Either the OP hasn't expressed their view of "your word is your value, in all cases, without variation," or their partner doesn't hold the same standards to be true.

 

[Murasaki]

You make some valid points Murasaki, so I am inclined to discuss them - however, I am still of a mind to question the motivation of the disdain of the OP regarding "tardiness" or "but you said you'd X". A blanket obsession for people sticking to their word is a worldview error, in my opinion.

I’m not so sure that this particular case is a “blanket obsession” to people sticking to their word. It seems more like a build-up of issues being expressed, and this happened to be the target, like the straw that started the argument.

The first complaint, or issue, was the constant change of rules to the husband's benefit, and the changes not including the needs/wants of the OP.

Wonderful!

If tardiness is a huge trigger for me I need to let people who might incur my wrath know that this is the case.​

​

If my partner shows themselves to be someone who does not hold punctuality in high regard then I need to make the appropriate adjustments.​

Either the OP hasn't expressed their view of "your word is your value, in all cases, without variation" or their partner doesn't hold the same standards to be true.

See, we do speak the same language. I’m more on the planning side. Kuroi was always on the spontaneous side. We figured out long ago, don’t set a time. So if there is any question then a time is not set. But when/if that changes, Kuroi will let me know when. Again we don’t have this where date nights/days are concerned outside of responsibilities. Work/school nights have certain responsibilities, and vehicle needs that can not be set aside for a date, so contingency have to be planned/prepared for.

What works best is a more general time of day, this afternoon, this evening, sometime before you leave for work. If a time is set I plan to make myself available, and so did Kuroi. Actually Kuroi did the same thing to me yesterday. I got home from work Kuroi was out, no idea when kuroi would return. I made plans I had no time to be home outside childcare needs. Kuroi misses me by less than 10 mins, and was “expecting” me to be home and available to hang out when kuroi’s plans came to an end. I reminded him today when we talked about it. I can’t know if I’m not informed. I made plans with no time expectation, because none was given. Giving me a time is making it clear TO ME that you want me to be available around that time. so being overly late is an inconvenience (minor, or major depending on what I was planning-circumstantial) as I changed my plans to accommodate yours.

Again though, this is something Kuroi and I worked out long ago.

<sleepy>

 

[Dirtclustit]

In case the OP does come back and read these replies in order to possibly glean some sound advice, again, I hope she realizes how to slice through the words that may present a facade. While there is no one right way to approach anything in life that deals with human behaviors and beliefs, do not forget that along that spectrum of variation, everyone must decide what are acceptable forms of communication.

I too, see this not as a problem with setting rules about how late you can be from a stated time to return , esp since the OP has already stated she has no rule. There are many different ways to communicate with your partners, and among that spectrum there is a varied level of truth that correlates as straight as a line could possibly be with the level deception

many people seem to miss the point, just as they did about what is actually bothering the OP, they fail to grasp what the problem is. For some people it is more convenient to stick to some obscure detail so that they can believe they are in the right and you are in the wrong, and so once there is any disagreement it becomes deleterious to attempt to communicate.

It's pointless because like behaviors there is also a spectrum of ways to communicate with your partners, but it is up to each of us to draw a line that designates what is acceptable. And you don't need permission to draw those lines as it is completely up to each person as an individual to decide the level of truth they prefer when communicating with their partners. Each person is free to change that level at any time, and said level can be different for specific individuals. If you have a partner who has trouble with being accountable, for the sake of your sanity you can demand no bullshit, and it is certainly OK to let them get away with zero accountability, so long as you are knowledgeable that is a choice that is only up to you to make.

If you can handle always being wrong on the pertinent points of any disagreement in order to accommodate a partner's need to be right -- even when then their point is irrelevant -- if you can stomach such styles of communicating that is entirely up to you as there is a spectrum of views that different people could choose to see this exchange. Some would see it as a false interpretation of the facts while another would see it as cutting through the bull crap.

And it's up to you

sometimes we just need to talk ourselves through it out loud, and it could be the case that there no problem, that it's all in your head. But it is up to you decide,

Do you just need to re-arrange your view on life?

Is there is no manipulation by him in your situation?

You don't have to agree with him or anyone else for that matter as you need no excuses for your preference

that's the beautiful thing about love, it's a two way street, your love not only needs to be offered but it also has to be accepted by the other party. Everyone in the world could offer you their decided view of love and present theirs to you, but it is only an offer, you are under no obligation to accept it

and the love that you choose to accept, if it is poison -- as some love is -- I wouldn't feel any obligation to accept it forever, as that decision is not up to the person who offers it. If love only presents itself as a one way street, and it is traveling in the opposite direction you wish to go, just walk perpendicular a few blocks up, usually you will find the road that travels your preferred direction