Miserable, Doing it wrong. No idea what to do next

[PinkPig]

It's just time. No magical number of days though most people say 6-24 months, depending on the relationship. No doubt you are experiencing NRE. The question is whether what you have is sustainable after the NRE fades. No way to know for certain except time.

I do think what you've agreed to seems like a decent compromise. If you really are invested in your relationship with your wife, I think dating her would be a good idea (if she's open to it. ) Woo her....channel some of the excitement from your new relationship back towards your wife. When you spend time with her, be present, in the moment, and ignore your phone while you're with her. Don't half ass it or do it if you're hearts not in it though. She'll be able to tell. If you aren't invested in fixing your marriage, then help your wife make strides towards financial security.....like finding a job or going back to school. Does she have training or a vocation she can fall back on? If so, maybe just taking some continuing education classes in the field would be useful.

 

[Remnant]

Just realized that this elephant in the room keeps coming up over and over in different variants of "how long", so might be worthwhile addressing it straight up.

I am not sure there is hope on the girlfriend front. There are massive red flags around this, which you are choosing to ignore:

1. I've said this before, but it is worth repeating. Any woman who has been in a few relationships and almost certainly one who you are saying is experienced with polyamory will observe how a potential/partner treats other women. Particularly women they have been intimate with. If she has been the one to suggest distance after seeing what is going on between you and your wife, you may ALREADY have lost her, though she put it as a temporary break. The chances are high that she will evaluate whatever you call a resolution of the situation and then decide if it seems good enough for her to resume. And an abandoned wife while you land up on her doorstep may not look good enough.
2. The fact that you are asking strangers how long it is reasonable to expect her to wait. As though there is a universal rule you can expect her to toe and god forbid if she doesn't toe it, you'll tell us all about how unreasonable she was, she didn't even wait for as long as this forum agreed was a reasonable time.... or something. What you are essentially saying is that she broke with you indefinitely without stating a timeline. In other words "be back when you're back" Which sounds about consistent with anyone who understands polyamory and problems with the existing partner consenting.
3. You have a fundamental incomprehension of polyamory. She has a life she is living. She is poly. She doesn't need to "wait" for you. She can have all the lovers she wants and whenever you are back, she can take a call on whether you still interest her.
4. You don't seem to have looked at much beyond the woman you want. Are you sure you can handle poly - even the fact of just her being poly? It takes a hell of a lot of adjustment and so far you seem to be floundering on home ground that you are familiar with.
5. For any self-actualized woman, a man she wanted to date casually without making sole interest of her life suddenly ditching a longterm marriage for her - before you have even slept together - is going to be more creepy than flattering. I don't know the relationship between you and your girlfriend, but I guarantee you I'd be wondering if this chap is likely to be needy and possessive and cause headaches for me in the future.
6. For most modern women who are fine with non-marital sex, there is no call on the permanence of a relationship without experiencing the sexual compatibility. You seem to be seeing a lot as a done deal on the basis of an emotional affair. If that doesn't work out, you will have thrown your family away for an emotional affair or maybe a few occasions of sex.

In other words, you aren't choosing between the wife and her, you are choosing between the wife and the possibility of a break being reversed. You don't appear to be aware of or making any efforts to act in a way that the potential partner observing your situation would find your behavior in it honorable and worth having in her life.

Even leaving apart the wife entirely for a moment, this situation in itself is not shiny.

A useful resource for you, Remnant at this point could be the blogs of women here who go on dates, have problems with the partners of their potential partners not taking things well and go on a break. Or for that matter, the blogs of women who go on a break with a partner for any reason and the things they consider around them and the discussions that follow. Resuming is not a guarantee. It is highly conditional on the woman finding the problem resulting in the break to be resolved in a satisfactory manner.

It's not so much that I'm ignoring it as that I believe you are incorrect on...... virtually all points and dialog does not seem to be clarifying things.

1) No, I haven't. She had separated because she feels the current situation is hard on me. I have not lost her, and in fact have now negotiated a compromise whereby we can see more of each other. She has SPECIFICALLY said that "if everything turns to shit, come here, or call me and I'll come get you. Turn up on my doorstep and we'll work things out"

2) No. My GF didn't specify a timeline or a deadline, but neither her nor I have coped with less than a week. I have no interest in "waaaaaaaaah GF didn't wait x time which was reasonable according to here", but I'm stuck between emotion and logic. I FEEL that a week was freaking eternity, but logically it was no where near long enough, I want some indication of what is reasonable, because *I* feel anything is unreasonable (as does the girlfriend), where as my wife feels 20y is reasonable, so I wanted someone uninvolved to give me an indication of what THEY felt was reasonable. Not so I can say "HA - see you're being unreasonable", but so *I* could look at that and determine whether or not something that was reasonable was something I could do.

3) Valid point. and as I've acknowledged elsewhere one I "knew" but hadn't internalised properly. And yes in a year I probably would still interest her, so I haven't "lost" her, but........ There is a relationship there, and leaving would damage it

4) Yes I'm sure

5) Either...... Every word my girlfriend is saying is a bald faced lie, or no, not creepy, she's looking for more than casualness

6) There is no guarantee we will be sexually compatible. It would surprise me greatly if we were not, but it would not be the end of the world. There is so much the my GF and have already experienced and still want to experience, yes, obviously sex is a large part of that. but it's not the largest. Closeness, affection, reading to each other, curled up watching random TV, long walks, Watching her cook, moving around each other in a kitchen while she despairs of taste buds, and I point out just frying it all would've been easier, and "hey salt's flavouring right?", arguing about fictional characters, whether Sam or Dean is hotter, and whether Dean with Sam's hair would be a suitable compromise. So. Much.

 

[Remnant]

It's just time. No magical number of days though most people say 6-24 months, depending on the relationship. No doubt you are experiencing NRE. The question is whether what you have is sustainable after the NRE fades. No way to know for certain except time.

I do think what you've agreed to seems like a decent compromise. If you really are invested in your relationship with your wife, I think dating her would be a good idea (if she's open to it. ) Woo her....channel some of the excitement from your new relationship back towards your wife. When you spend time with her, be present, in the moment, and ignore your phone while you're with her. Don't half ass it or do it if you're hearts not in it though. She'll be able to tell. If you aren't invested in fixing your marriage, then help your wife make strides towards financial security.....like finding a job or going back to school. Does she have training or a vocation she can fall back on? If so, maybe just taking some continuing education classes in the field would be useful.

Thank you. I'm hoping it is a workable compromise, that will enable to us either move forwards, or at the very lest identify that we are not going to be able to move forwards. My seeing the girlfriend is SUPPOSED to enable to me actually concentrate on my wife the rest of the time, because I will KNOW when I can next see the the GF etc. Not sure if it will actually work, but that's the point.

"help your wife make strides towards financial security" This is......... difficult, particularly difficult to do concurrently because she appears to see this as preparation for leaving, as "self justification". Which is not something I know how to deal with appropriately. I'm hoping counselling (mine or hers) will help here

 

[WhatHappened]

As well as a variety of fiction I have read....

Reading fiction is not a good basis on which to build a marriage.

You started an emotional affair and told your wife of 16 years, who is financially dependent on you and has three children with you, to suck it up, buttercup, take it or leave it and now claim it's her choice and you're a great guy for not forcing her to do anything.

Between that and the excessive use of ellipses, I hope she finds someone who treats her right.

 

[Remnant]

Reading fiction is not a good basis on which to build a marriage.

You started an emotional affair and told your wife of 16 years, who is financially dependent on you and has three children with you, to suck it up, buttercup, take it or leave it and now claim it's her choice and you're a great guy for not forcing her to do anything.

Between that and the excessive use of ellipses, I hope she finds someone who treats her right.

Way to cherry pick. "AS WELL AS" a variety of fiction, i.e that was me minimising the fiction as I'm aware it's well..... FICTION (although written by a poly author, which should count for something).

I have never, anywhere in this entire 9 page thread said anything even remotely related to "I'm a great guy"

Yes, my wife is financially dependent on me. This is a factor and one that I don't know how to address. I don't know how much if any difference this makes and/or what to do about it. How different would the situation be if she wasn't? And hth do you resolve it?

The reason she is financially dependent is not anyone's fault (or it's everyone's fault), it just is, but what can you do about it. Particularly when currently, attempts to make her less financially dependent are seen as attempts to eject her.


I have no defence to the charge of ellipse misuse, plead guilty and throw myself on the mercy of the forum.

 

[WhatHappened]

Way to cherry pick. "AS WELL AS" a variety of fiction, i.e that was me minimising the fiction as I'm aware it's well..... FICTION (although written by a poly author, which should count for something).

If fiction as a source for marital success is to be minimized, then why bring it up at all? Sorry, no, being written by a poly author doesn't count for anything. See, authors get to tell the characters what they're going to feel.

OH LOOK, MY HUSBAND HAS BEEN HAVING AN EMOTIONAL AFFAIR BEHIND MY BACK AND NOW WANTS TO SCREW OTHER WOMEN, HOORAY I FEEL COMPERSION!!!

That's what the author gets to SAY the character feels [Or, to make a 'compelling' plot line, Character B struggles really hard, faces three obstacles in a carefully crafted Story Arc, then realizes what amazing compersion s/he feels after all.]

But that's rarely the way a real human being feels. [I know this because instead of fiction, I read the yahoo list for real mono spouses of polys where I see a sh*t ton of pain.]

See--the poly author is biased.

[My professional life is very heavily involved in fiction, btw, has been for 30 years, so I know plenty about fiction, good fiction, realistic fiction, two-dimensional characters, crappy dialogue, and biased fiction written to show the world as the author wishes it to be, etc. Believe me, a writer of any persuasion or belief is frequently the last person you want to believe on that issue because they're writing the world and other people as they want them to be, not as they are.]

I have never, anywhere in this entire 9 page thread said anything even remotely related to "I'm a great guy"

Tone. So many ways we can speak between the lines without saying things directly.

Yes, my wife is financially dependent on me. This is a factor and one that I don't know how to address. I don't know how much if any difference this makes and/or what to do about it. How different would the situation be if she wasn't? And hth do you resolve it?

Particularly when currently, attempts to make her less financially dependent are seen as attempts to eject her.

True, the emotional landscape would be no different if she had an equal job. I suspect it might be different if she had a fantastic job and you were the stay at home parent. I suspect you'd be less likely to take the attitude of Suck It Up Buttercup Like It Or Leave It.

How do you resolve it? You open the Big Boy Drawer and you put on the Big Boy Pants, the electrifying ones that make the lightbulb go off in your heart and head that tell you, oh, hey, the world doesn't revolve around me and I don't get everything I want. Just because I have the hots for this woman doesn't mean it's now OKAY for me to take actions that hurt my wife and threaten to tear apart my children's home.

You realize that it's middle school histrionics to claim that your only choices are a) get what you want or b) be miserable forever. [Really? REALLY????]

Know what? I had the major hots for a guy for years while I was married. I REALLY REALLY REALLY WANTED HIM. Know what I did about it? Nothing. Yep. Nothing. Because I never would have taken an action that harmed my husband. Because I'm not the center of the universe. Because other people matter, too. Because when I love someone I don't hurt them.

And you know what? I'm okay. I'm fine. I didn't have a heart attack, none of my limbs fell off, I still have all my hair. I got an education and raised my children. I still have a job and a roof over my head. I didn't get what I wanted and I'm just fine. Better than fine, because I live with the knowledge that I didn't hurt someone I loved.

I have no defence to the charge of ellipse misuse, plead guilty and throw myself on the mercy of the forum.

Thank you. ;-) The judge grants you leniency but recommends a treatment program before release into grammatical society.

 

[WhatHappened]

BTW...polyamory is CONSENSUAL.

Telling your wife like it or leave it is not really consensual.

 

[Remnant]

How do you resolve it? You open the Big Boy Drawer and you put on the Big Boy Pants, the electrifying ones that make the lightbulb go off in your heart and head that tell you, oh, hey, the world doesn't revolve around me and I don't get everything I want. Just because I have the hots for this woman doesn't mean it's now OKAY for me to take actions that hurt my wife and threaten to tear apart my children's home.

You realize that it's middle school histrionics to claim that your only choices are a) get what you want or b) be miserable forever. [Really? REALLY????]

Know what? I had the major hots for a guy for years while I was married. I REALLY REALLY REALLY WANTED HIM. Know what I did about it? Nothing. Yep. Nothing. Because I never would have taken an action that harmed my husband. Because I'm not the center of the universe. Because other people matter, too. Because when I love someone I don't hurt them.

Obviously it's not "okay". But this does not mean that the only acceptable option is to ignore what I want. I'm glad that worked out for you, it may or may not work out for other people.

The....... concept that you don't get everything you want, and that it's never acceptable to take actions that hurt other people leads to the conclusion that leaving my wife (ever, under any circumstances) is not "okay".

Everyone, Everywhere ALWAYS has the right to leave a relationship. I don't know if these circumstances are sufficient to warrant that, they may, or they may not be.

But regardless, "suck it up, what you want doesn't matter, stay with your wife" is completely useless advice.

And saying that if I was the financially dependent one I wouldn't WANT to leave, completely ignores the point. I'm not. Does this mean I CAN'T? Does that fact that I'm the "breadwinner" mean that I've somehow abrogated the right to leave the relationship?

 

[Emm]

I don't think anyone's saying you can't leave your wife, just that you need to stop pretending that you've given her any real choice but to stay.

 

[Remnant]

I don't think anyone's saying you can't leave your wife, just that you need to stop pretending that you've given her any real choice but to stay.

I.... kinda think the previous poster WAS, but moving on. "No real choice but to stay". This bothers me. I'm not saying you're wrong (I really don't know), but what do you mean?

How do I give her that choice? I don't WANT her to leave, but do I have some sort of obligation to leave if I'm hurting her because she "can't" in some way? Isn't that taking choices away from her? Or just to ensure she CAN if she feels she needs to? how do I DO that?

 

[Emm]

What I mean is that telling someone "you can stay here and eat the shit sandwich or you can jump off this cliff into the pool of crocodiles with concrete weights on your ankles... totally up to you." doesn't mean you can then claim that they willingly consented to the shit sandwich.

If she's not able to be comfortably self-supporting there may not be any way to give her a meaningful choice.

 

[Shaya]

You're in a tough spot Remnant.

Your goals seem to be 1) keep the relationship between you and GF alive even if it doesn't progress. 2) maintain the marriage by spending 6.5 days a week on it.

It may work. To be honest, and I've never been anything but honest with you, Remnant, it may not, and I suspect your mind's gone down that pathway too.

I had some thoughts on how to maximise your chances of obtaining both goals 1 and 2. My thoughts focus on an empathy with your wife and to empower her in a way that makes her feel like she has more control. I will also be suggesting a different way for you to view the relationship struggle between you and your wife but I might do this in a way that you may not welcome, with apologies.

From an outsider's perspective, it seems to me that you have the most control in this situation - more so than GF or wife. This may be because you are highly intelligent, driven, have a history of being successful in your personal and professional life, your confidence, male privelege or any number of other factors. Regardless, I feel you have more control over the situation than GF or wife. Having said that, you've clearly had to compromise.

I feel your wife has less control in this situation than you do. From what you've written, she seems to be financially and emotionally dependent on you. In addition, some women fear the social stigma of being a divorced single mother with children. If this is so, then her social, financial and emotional security is tied to you.

I liked your quote when you described your solution as one that nobody liked, making it likely to be the right decision. I share the same philosophy. However, I still feel your control over the situation influenced the outcome to be more favourable towards your situation. If all goes well, you will still be able to achieve goals 1 and 2 above. You will still get to be able to have your cake and eat it too, despite starting from the relatively poor bargaining position of an (emotional) affair. If your wife had more control however, I would imagine that she would push for no contact, monogamy for 20 years and affair recovery. Even if all goes well, she will never achieve her goals.

To summarise so far, there seems to be an imbalance in control over the situation that has resulted in a resolution that nobody likes but which, I feel, is still skewed in your favour. The reasons for this are multifactorial but likely include personality differences between you and your wife, along with (financial, emotional and social) dependency which may be an extension of male privelege in society. The result of this is that you can still achieve your final goals but your wife no longer can.

There will be a continuation of this below, but I wanted to check in with you to make sure you're okay with me dissecting the psychology like this. I presume you are, since you're still here, but wanted to add an apology if you find my tone negative or patronising. I don't intend it to be and sometimes words just come out wrong on the internet. My aim in writing is to see if there are things an outsider's can see about your situation that may help you achieve goal 1) and 2) above.

To be continued...

 

[Remnant]

Emm, Valid, but the point then remains, if she doesn't have a meaningful choice then...... what exactly? I make it for her?
Or I have no right to leave? and therfore no right to anything that is not 100% her idea? Any potential compromise around...... anything, could be seen as non consensual. How do you deal with that?

 

[Remnant]

Shaya, very comfortable to hear what you have to say. I definitely have points to raise re what you've already said, but please continue. No apology necessary and no offense taken.

 

[Emm]

The only thing you don't have a right to do is pretend that you're negotiating on a level playing field. Acknowledge that, and treat your wife with kindness rather than impatience. Give her options that aren't at one extreme or the other; either get rid of the crocodiles or let her choose her own sandwich.

 

[anamikanon]

GF, wife kids unit: Yes. BEFORE she was an "affair partner". She was initially a friend of a friend. Then a friend, then a family friend.

So your affair partner is someone she knew socially, so it somewhat impacts her relationship with the woman directly and in front of mutual acquaintances as well (in addition to everything you've said so far)?

This can be specially brutal - for someone you know socially to know your worst vulnerabilities and it is the last person you'd confide in - the source of your hurt. And you appear to be fine discussing your wife with her and offering her not even the barest dignity of licking her wounds privately.

GF feels there is enough blame to go around, that she is also at least partly to blame, as is my wife. I disagree.

You are saying your girlfriend sees your wife as partly to blame.

In your earlier reply to me you have said:

She has SPECIFICALLY said that "if everything turns to shit, come here, or call me and I'll come get you. Turn up on my doorstep and we'll work things out"

In other words, she will support you if you make a destructive move against your wife.

Yes we were texting each, NOT "around the clock", and NEVER "what a bitch your wife is". In any way.

You are also saying you don't discuss your wife in a negative way. Unless you're immature enough to only see profanity as a negative assessment. You are in an ongoing emotional affair with a person who discusses your wife unfavorably and states bluntly to you that she is fine supporting hurtful actions against her - it becomes irrelevant whether specific insults are used.

NRE: NRE is whole thing. How do I know if this is NRE?

If your behavior is altered in ways you normally wouldn't act in. Were you the impulsive and immature type? Were you often lost for how to handle your domestic life and miserable, thinking that you were doing it wrong and unsure what to do? If not, this is altered behavior.

To us, this sounds like NRE. But perhaps it is a time for brutal self-assessment. Is this uncaring behavior NORMAL for you? To chase a woman at the cost of your marriage? (you claimed to be monogamous and loyal earlier, so I'm guessing not) To act in ways that hurt your wife and tell her to take it or leave the home? This is an easy check with a factual yes/no reply - have you offered divorce as a means of ending disagreement before this? If so, you were in an abusive relationship for a long time this may not be NRE. If the idea of acting like this would normally leave you aghast, then you're under the influence of brain chemicals altering your perception of reality.

I think it's a lot more than NRE, so does my GF.

This is a normal symptom of NRE. Last year, Spexy had planned living as a threesome in a home together with this woman he was having an affair with, when in reality he wasn't even able to talk about her with me - let alone us living in same home. They made lifelong plans. The affair was over in 3 days. He was so besotted with what he thought he had with her, he broke off with me immediately after getting close to her.

Been a year now, he has not been able to forgive himself so far. And unlike your wife, I had absolutely no problems with the woman. STILL. Once the intoxication of NRE was done, he was horrified at how he had almost thrown away a relationship he valued. But all situations are different. Did you have a relationship you valued before meeting the new woman? If yes, this recklessness is likely to be NRE. If not, then it may be, may not be.

is there a magical number of days after which it's no longer NRE? Are there indications that something is just NRE? or more than NRE?

How do you know you are still drunk or not? You check if you feel intoxicated. You observe if your behavior has returned to normal. Is this how you normally introduced changes in domestic life? Is this how you normally handled important decisions for self and family?

 

[anamikanon]

On a side note, your choice to continue limited contact will likely be the most brutal for yourself and your GF. Your wife is already insecure. While it will prolong her hurt to see you stubbornly making contact, if she chose to stay in the marriage instead of dumping you, she's already mentally resigned to going through pain, even if she doesn't like it.

I see you puzzled about your wife not having choices. That is because you negated her attempts to make her preferences work and shut her down brutally leaving her with no choice but to accept what you decide. Eventually, you are forced to return to them. You said initially that she was controlling about the contact between you and GF. She hadn't rejected you being poly, but eventually, and it wasn't good enough for you. Now, after fumbling around a lot, short of being an absolute cad, you have come to the near same decision unilaterally - the one you think no one likes and thus is probably better. You are limiting your contact with your GF. Keeping it public.

This is the intoxication of NRE and how it does damage. Of the three of you, your wife was the only one not under the influence of NRE. She was not uncooperative, but you didn't like what she chose because it wasn't immediately gratifying. You stripped her of choice, took matters in your own hands to the point of telling her that she could choose to end the marriage. And after a lot of trauma for everyone concerned, you are at a place that is near identical to her original solution. The only difference is that this is your bright idea now and she has been unnecessarily humiliated. while you are lauding yourself for coming up with what is probably the best solution under the circumstances.

I suppose sometimes you just have to live with NRE and make an ass of yourself because the boring people not under the influence look like idiots. Reminds me of drunk driving, frankly.

 

[Shaya]

I mentioned previously that I thought there was an imbalance in control between you and your wife.

I interpret your goals as 1) explore a connection between you and GF using the ethical framework of polyamory and 2) maintain your marriage.

You have previously said that you would leave your wife for your GF if forced to choose. I don't actually believe you. I believe that when you made that statement, you felt that you could be happier in life if you could have the freedom to explore your connection with your GF, and at the time of proclaiming it, you felt it was worth discarding your marriage to achieve this connection. However, I feel you are a different person now. Your actions to date have shown that you are willing to work 6.5 days a week with your wife. You're choosing to feel pain every day as you work to make things right for your wife. You're here on polyamory.com and not serialmonogamy.com because you still value your marriage. Your actions speak louder than your words, Remnant, and I don't believe you will leave your wife.

Having said that actions speak louder than words, words still do have the power to hurt. If you haven't already had this discussion with your wife, I think she would feel a lot better if you told her that your head was in NRE and you absolutely want to commit to making your marriage work as a priority. Rather than stating you want goals 1) and 2), state goal 2 as the main goal. I feel that stating that you care more for your wife than you do about your affair partner will restore an element of control for your wife and I also feel it is a more honest statement. You have 20 years, children and shared finances with a woman who is clearly hurting herself with what i imagine as love being the professed reason. Your old marriage is dead and you have the chance for a different marriage with new rules - a chance for relationship version 2. Everyone in affair recovery will tell you that version 2 can be SO MUCH BETTER.

It would be sad to throw this away for an affair partner. The statistics show that most affairs do not last once the NRE fades. People who have been down affair road say affairs don't work in the long run because of the guilt they feel. The guilt and dishonesty may not be feelings you feel now due to the endorphin high of NRE, but it is said that guilt comes later. Anniversaries with an affair partner are 2 parts happiness and 1 part sadness. When people in social situations ask how you met, it becomes an awkward reminder for the two of you and you're forced to be a little dishonest with friends. Family also tend to disapprove of the affair partner. Children don't forgive you. There are many reasons why the statistics show that leaving a long term relationship for an affair partner does not work out in the long run. And I don't believe you will leave.

I hope your wife realises this as well and hope you find yourself able to tell her this. I think it will allow her to heal better and to feel that she is, in some way, valued more highly than the affair partner.


Polyamory from an affair is hard, and the links I gave as the first responder to this thread all have one thing in common. In all of them, polyamory proceeded at the rate of the slowest person. In all of them, the hurt partner was given full control over the situation. Many such partners used a veto and only allowed poly back on the table after a few months. In all cases, control was given to the one who had least control to begin with. Your wife had no control over the beginning of your affair, but i suspect she may benefit from having more control over it now.

You're aiming for polyamory - ethical non monogamy with the consent of all parties involved. Your wife's actions strongly indicate that her heart is not consenting. I don't believe you and your wife can practice polyamory now. I believe you may need time to heal first.

In summary, I feel that your wife perceives that she has little control over the situation with her ideal genie-wish being no contact with affair partner, monogamy for 20 years, and recreating a connection between the two of you. The compromise the three of you have worked out does not permit her to achieve her goals. Her lack of control in attaining this leads to her trying to control far too many other aspects of the interaction between you and GF, resulting in unsuccessful polyamory. My suspicion is that the Thursday morning meetup may be counterproductive, since the highlight of your week will be with GF rather than wife. This may be especially so if emotional aspects of the Thursday meetup spill over onto other days of the week. I suspect one thing that will make your wife feel better would be validation that the last 20 years with her means more than the last few months you've had with the girlfriend. I feel the expression of this honest statement will be the first step towards helping you and your wife reconnect. Finally, although you wish to do polyamory, polyamory is the ethical manner of doing non monogamy in which all parties are consenting and requesting consent after the betrayal of an affair can be difficult if the reasons for the affair are not first acknowledged.

Good luck, Remnant. Even if I haven't been 100% useful in what I said, I'm hoping something in here helped a little.

Kind regards and best wishes,
Shaya.

 

[Remnant]

Sigh, the sheer number of imprecations, assumptions and leading questions in those 2 posts is.... astounding:

And you appear to be fine discussing your wife with her and offering her not even the barest dignity of licking her wounds privately.

Granted I don't have a lot of experience here, but yes, I feel my girlfriend HAS to have some understanding of the situation between my wife and I. If nothing else, so that she knows why I can or can't see her, why I can or can't touch her, why she is or isn't welcome in our house. communication, it's important.

You are saying your girlfriend sees your wife as partly to blame.

I am saying that she doesn't feel anyone is ENTIRELY blameless here. yes, by definition that means the my wife shares a least a small part of the blame. That's a very different statement to "your wife is partly to blame"

In other words, she will support you if you make a destructive move against your wife

"If everything turns to shit" does not equal "a destructive move against my wife" wtaf? It means, purely and simply that if the situation at my house becomes untenable, for ANY reason, that there is a place I can go.

You are also saying you don't discuss your wife in a negative way. Unless you're immature enough to only see profanity as a negative assessment. You are in an ongoing emotional affair with a person who discusses your wife unfavorably and states bluntly to you that she is fine supporting hurtful actions against her

Assumption of immaturity. You appear to the one here equating profanity with a negative assesment, further (unjustified) assumption of support of hurtful actions.

Were you the impulsive and immature type?

Leading question. I don't see my current actions as impulsive or immature. Have you always been this judgemental and confrontational? is it just towards me?

Is this uncaring behavior NORMAL for you?

Same again, leading and invalid question. Is this offensive and sophistic behaviour NORMAL for you?

and shut her down brutally leaving her with no choice but to accept what you decide

There are ALWAYS choices. They may not be notably palatable ones, but there are always choices. This statement is disingenuous at best. And "brutally" was completely unnecessary, what exactly is the gentle way to "leave someone with no choice". Redundant (and intentionally offensive) word choice at best

You said initially that she was controlling about the contact between you and GF

I said that we chose to give her that control, and it was used in a way that was extremely damaging to all concerned. An incredibly relevant point that you appear to have somehow overlooked because it doesn't fit your narrative

Now, after fumbling around a lot, short of being an absolute cad, you have come to the near same decision unilaterally

Ummm, no, nowhere NEAR the same decision unilaterally. I have not given control of contact back to my wife, because she has shown that she is either unable or unwilling to exercise that control appropriately. Instead contact has been set are very low levels.

the one you think no one likes and thus is probably better

uhhhhhh, well given that ALL 3 of us have specifically said "I don't like it", yes, I think no one likes it.

your bright idea now and she has been unnecessarily humiliated

Not my bright idea, quite probably not even a GOOD idea, simply the best that I can see. And I'm not sure how you get "unnecessarily humiliated" from what I've said.

 

[Tinwen]

IMHO your compromise seems like the most you can offer in the 'not seeing GF, work on marriage' area given your emotional standpoint, and I respect it. And, I very much like the idea of writing down notes and doing a regular check. It seem you two are working. Stick with it for some time - I'm even tempted to say 'don't let forum people to tell you otherwise', because I feel changing agreements too frequently is damaging.

It also seems your GF is serious about building a relationship with you. No guarantee, but I think this is one of the key elements for a relationship to survive beyond NRE.

I very much like how Emm puts the power imbalance issue. "Remove the crocodiles or let her choose her own sandwich." Genial.
Dealing with this is about the realization that you have the power, therefore you have the responsibility here. Mind you, I'm not saying it's responsibility to leave her, but it is a responsibility to handle the situation with her well-being in mind.
If you find your wife is acting a little child-like, well, I believe the power imbalance is inviting it. People tell you not to make decisions for your wife, but I believe you have to act a little parent-like. That involves making decisions (which is unfortunate due to you being basically on a drug high), but it mostly involves empathetic listening, being protective and supportive, and having her best interests in mind.

How do I give her that choice? I don't WANT her to leave, but do I have some sort of obligation to leave if I'm hurting her because she "can't" in some way? Isn't that taking choices away from her? Or just to ensure she CAN if she feels she needs to? how do I DO that?

Yes I think it is your responsibility to ensure that if she needs to leave it is a real possibility for her. How do you do that? That will depend. Only you know your situation, could make her an offer.
I realize it would be much better if she could have the conversation. Maybe you could try bringing it up via describing the power imbalance. Make clear that you're concerned about that, and what you are going to tell her indeed is an offer or a suggestion.
This will not bring you on level ground, but I think it's going a long way in honoring your responsibilities.

On a side note, your choice to continue limited contact will likely be the most brutal for yourself and your GF.

Indeed your chosen solution will be hard on you. To combat the natural tendency to see each other a lot while in love is hard, as you have already noticed. Maybe even harder than really breaking up. What could help you make peace a little is, that limited contact allows the passion in the relationship to last longer before things start to feel mundane.