Sneaking Behind My Back.....pissed off

[Mahogany]

LovingRadiance, your elaboration on the word "cheat" sums it up. Based on the definitions, they were both cheating, bottom line. They swindled, deceived, and all the above.

Again, if they'd simply communicated to me that they NEEDED the time, they could have arranged a date for later that night.

Marcus, I agree. Thank you for the criticism (sincerely). That is why I posted this thread. I wanted honest outside opinions, including on my actions. I am at fault in not communicating clearly. I honestly didn't think that they would do that with the kids playing downstairs, with me downstairs, too.

I don't engage in sex with him when she is unaware (if she is with us) because I feel it is disrespectful to her feelings. Bo and me sneaking off to enjoy each other and leaving her out when she is around could be hurtful to her, I think.

Life isn't black and white. There are other shades. I do need to work on not acting so quickly on my emotions, to be sure to process things well and take a breather.

My lashing out wasn't disrespectful. I did not call him names or do anything like that. I simply said, in a stern form, "I am very upset, disappointed and hurt by you two!" I use "I statements," not "You statements."

 

[pulliman]

I see no reason to label the husband as "dumb," or the gf as "disrespectful," when there is no evidence that this was the case.

Just a clarification-- I didn't label the husband as dumb. I think it was a dumb choice, for reasons others have stated with far more clarity, but I'm certainly happy to think about other perspectives and attitudes around the events.

 

[Marcus]

I don't engage in sex with him when she is unaware. if she is with us, because I feel it is disrespectful to her feelings. Sneaking off to enjoy each other and leaving her out when she is around could be hurtful to her, I think.

It will be helpful for you to iron our exactly what your expectations are, and then make sure that if you plan on holding people accountable for them, they are aware of the expectation and what is at stake. This pertain to all relationships, including in business, with friends, family, and romantic partners.

On expectations, it is also helpful to realize that because you would not take an action, because you wouldn't want someone taking that action, doesn't mean they feel the same. Personally, I disagree with pretty much every poster in this thread, because I don't find some villainy in sneaking off to the bathroom for a romp. Kids being in the house isn't a good enough reason for me to pass on a hookup with a lover when we are both all hot and bothered.

Your hubby and his gf both also clearly don't share this taboo with you, or any of the other posters on this thread. We are all quite different, and finding fault with a behavior like this doesn't necessarily make it unhealthy or "bad."

 

[pulliman]

Personally, I disagree with pretty much every poster in this thread, because I don't find some villainy in sneaking off to the bathroom for a romp. Kids being in the house isn't a good enough reason for me to pass on a hookup with a lover when we are both all hot and bothered. Your hubby and his gf both also clearly don't share this taboo with you, or any of the other posters on this thread. We are all quite different, and finding fault with a behavior like this doesn't necessarily make it unhealthy or "bad."

Marcus, it's not about a taboo, and it's not villainy (who said it was?). It's about shared responsibility. It's about the management of (presumably small) kids, a many-hands-on-deck perspective during a time of lots of activities. Birthday parties are typically pretty tightly-scheduled affairs with lots of moving parts (lots of egos to deal with, kids that can melt down suddenly, etc.), and I can assume that's what this was. Mostly, kids can take care of themselves. But parents are typically present and working together on this. As a parent, you're not really expected to sneak off and play. That's not a taboo, that's not even being nice. It's doing your part in an event you're supposed to be doing your part in.

Would it be different if there were just kids in the house? For me, yes. But at a birthday party? I can see why someone would be hurt to shoulder all that space alone, even if only for a short time. To me, it would the decision that mattered, the surprise of being left alone, not the act itself.

 

[Marcus]

I think it was a dumb choice

I see no reason to label the husbands actions as "dumb" or the gfs actions as "disrespectful" when there is no evidence that this was the case.

It doesn't change the thrust of the discussion. The OP was upset for something the hubby, gf, and I find to be perfectly harmless fun. For these actions to be dumb or disrespectful, there would need to be a common understanding that what they were doing was somehow inherently dangerous or harmful, which would classify their ignorance of the widely-accepted social tradition as such (dumb and disrespectful).

Children aren't made of porcelain. I'm sure that they will survive the dangerous trauma of NOT knowing that a couple of consenting adults quietly had a quicky in the bathroom somewhere in the same house. In my opinion, the "children" argument is just obfuscating the reality of this very minor disagreement and need for adult communication.

 

[IndieSolo]

First of all, please know that everything I am about to say below is meant to be helpful and is offered in the spirit of "tough love" and tell-it-like-it-is good will...

Personally, Mahogany, I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill. Are they adults, in a relationship in which sex happens? Is it so wrong that an opportunity to have a little sexy fun presented itself, and they took it? I am sure they locked the door so no kids would walk in and find them.

. . . I realized that I was upset because: (1) He had asked me to sneak off with him and have some adult fun more than once during the party, and although I really wanted to, I said no. I didn't feel comfortable doing it upstairs when our kids and others were alert downstairs. So I put my responsibilities first (making an adult decision to wait). But he decided to go ask her, and SHE said yes. He continued to pursue it, even after I explained why it was not a good idea.

So, you didn't think it was a good idea, but she did. Why does that irk you so much? Is she supposed to be in total agreement with you about everything? Or is it that you are in charge of his sex life, and what you say goes?

Obviously, he thought it was a good idea. Again, what is the harm? Are they in an adult relationship or not? Are each of them in full charge of their bodies and sexuality, or do they need to run it by you every time they feel amorous? It sounds like you require them to seek your permission before they can fool around, and that smacks of a need to be in control of others. Keep in mind, that can only backfire, because feeling in control of what other people do is only an illusion. You simply can't control other people, no matter how many rules you pile on top of them.

In the past, I was fully aware of what was going the happen, so I had been able to mentally prepare, if you will. This was a complete surprise to me. Communication is very important to me, and they failed to do that. If they needed a date, they should have said that.

If they simply communicated to me that they NEEDED the time, they could have arranged a date for later that night.

I am curious why you need to mentally prepare yourself for when your husband has sex with his gf. Are you his keeper, his warden? You are aware he has another relationship, and that they are grown-ups who have sex. Why must they give you time to prepare? This seems like a very passive-aggressive way to try and put the brakes on their romantic/sexual relationship, because they can never be spontaneous in expressing their desire for each other for fear of upsetting you.

You wanted it cleared in advance and scheduled to your liking, so you could adjust mentally, emotionally, for some reason. Well, if I were either one of them, that would be a total buzzkill. Are you sure you have actually come to terms with what polyamory is, what it means to you and your partners, and how it translates in terms of real-world actions and choices?

There is a time and place for everything. If they would have taken some time to talk and connect, I would have been okay with that. Sex when kids are alert in the house is weird to me, and makes me feel uncomfortable. But I don't know if I am being too uptight about it.

I think your perspective is quite uptight, but it's probably something you inherited. If you read your words: "There is a time and place for everything..." that sounds like my grandmother talking. I'm picturing you wagging your finger at them while saying that. "Now, hubby, there is a time and place for everything, you bad boy!" I'm not saying that to be critical or mean, but to suggest that you take a look at your conditioning and how you let it totally throw you into a tailspin, and are using it now to justify being upset.

I am sure there are plenty of parents across the globe who have snuck away for a quickie while the kids were playing. And the world kept spinning.

I am at fault in not communicating clearly. I honestly didn't think that they would do that with the kids playing downstairs, and me downstairs too.

I don't engage in sex with him when she is unaware, if she is with us, because I feel it is disrespectful to her feelings.

How is having sex with your partner even remotely disrespectful to his other partner? If it is, then, is it really disrespectful of you if he has sex with her when you're available too? What is the logic behind that? I would think that she knows you two are adults who have sex, and it wouldn't hurt her to know you are doing it. Again, I think you are applying some sort of conditioned reasoning here which has nothing to do with the reality of the situation.

Sneaking off to enjoy each other, and leaving her out when she is around could be hurtful.

Why would it be hurtful? Can you see how you are using the situation to hurt yourself? In actuality, they didn't hurt you, but you are choosing to see it as a hurtful act.

Morally, I feel that it was wrong, because of when and how they went about it. Don't you think that it was the wrong time? We had 5 children downstairs with me. What if I wanted to enjoy the acts they were experiencing too, but I couldn't because I was downstairs taking care of the kids? Why do they get to go upstairs and enjoy each other? Why not me? ... To be honest, hubby had asked me to sneak off and do something with him earlier during the party, but I told him, "No, maybe later after everyone went to sleep." I guess he tried with her and hit the jackpot.

IT COULD HAVE BEEN YOU, BUT YOU REFUSED THE OFFER! You can't cry about not getting any after you turned him down! You want it both ways.

The above sentences I quoted really seem to speak to the crux of the matter, as I see it. You said no, and thought he should be satisfied with that. She said yes, and he got what he wanted from someone other than you. Honey, you are wrapped up in feeling jealous, possessive, competitive, and envious. You probably wish you'd said yes, but you didn't. So now you're telling yourself and the two of them that it's all about "time and place," and protecting the children, and being responsible. I call bullshit. You are kidding yourself, because you don't want to look at what's really underneath it. You want to be his first choice, you want to be enough for him, and you only want him to want her when you approve of the circumstances.

Believe me, I know it sucks to admit to feelings we don't want to have, but it's much more freeing and satisfying to be authentic than it is to hide behind some old life-limiting belief system.

 

[bookbug]

While I highly doubt Bo and his gf meant to upset Mahogany, I, too, would have an issue with being left with the responsibility alone. Since the kids seem to be an emotional issue for everyone, take the kids out of it. Suppose the three adults were doing chores around the house, and two of them decide on a quickie, leaving one working. Use any combo you want, Bo and gf; Bo and Mahogany; Mahogany and gf. The one left working is unlikely to be pleased about it.

Now, it appears that Mahogany assumed that the other adults were sharing the responsibility with her. However, they obviously didn't see the party as their responsibility. The question is why. Maybe Mahogany had done all the organizing and preparing, and so they saw her as "in charge," which might make them think it was acceptable to leave for a moment. Perhaps responsibilities weren't made clear.

In any case, I applaud Mahogany for bringing this up for discussion, given that she herself wants to understand the issue in order to be a better communicator.

 

[IndieSolo]

As a parent, you're not really expected to sneak off and play. That's not a taboo, that's not even being nice. It's doing your part in an event you're supposed to be doing your part in.

Mahogany already stated that the party was over and all the guests had left when they went upstairs to go have some fun. Mahogany was occupied with the kids. I don't get why everyone is assuming that Bo and his gf would not have rejoined the group and resumed their responsibilities with clean-up, etc. In situations like this, the aftermath of a party, you see people go out for a smoke or run to the store, and no one says boo. They come back and the people left behind say, "Oh back already? Great, here's the trash, take it out," or "You wash, I'll dry," and so on. But since it was a blow-job, it's insulting, not nice, and cause for alarm?

 

[vanquish]

Marcus reminded me above that it happened after the guests were gone and the party over. With that said, I don't see the big deal.

Furthermore, as Marcus illuminated, there was no standing rule. So, LR, there was no cheating, even despite the Funk and Wagnall's definition. Colloquially, cheating involves sex, not what happened here. I'm a lawyer who drafts lawsuits based on fraud all the time, so I'm aware of the range of definitions.

NYCindie and Marcus both said it very well, so I won't recap the rest.

 

[BrigidsDaughter]

I don't know. I still think it was wrong of Bo to do that, when Mahogany said she expressed to him why she felt it was inappropriate for her and him to sneak in a quickie when he asked her. I'm sure that she meant for him to realize that it was inappropriate for him to be having sexy times when it was family/kid time. It's their twins' birthday, not time for him to get a blow job from his girlfriend because his wife said not now. She even told him later that night would be appropriate.

It sounds to me like he wanted to fulfill his fantasy and didn't see the harm. It also sounds like if she noticed they were missing after the party when the guests had left, they likely did go off for said quickie during the party, not after.

I am not someone who cares if my son is home when I'm having sex, but he does have to be in his room with the door closed and some type of media playing so he can't hear me. (He's 12.) My boyfriend and his wife won't allow any type of sexy time when their 17-year old son is in the house. His wife won't have sex with him when their son is home, and hasn't since his birth, so I don't get to, either.

Part of being a parent means being available for your children. It means anticipating their needs, and twins after a birthday party are going to be wound up, and will most likely need both their parents.

 

[vanquish]

You're talking about a meaning that wasn't directly stated. Bo can't be a mind reader. And if the party's over, it's not like its the thick of the party. How long is long enough? And if there's no standing agreement, how is he supposed to know?

From what's been said, it sounds like Mahogany is expecting a level of control over their sex in order to be comfortable. That's not a truly open relationship.

 

[Marcus]

While I highly doubt Bo and the gf meant to upset Mahogany, I, too, would have an issue with being left with the responsibility alone. Since the kids seem to be an emotional issue for everyone, take the kids out of it. Suppose the three adults had were doing chores around the house, and two of them decide on a quickie, leaving one working. Use any combo you want. The one left working is unlikely to be pleased about it.

This is an issue of expectations. When I clean house, I have a certain level of cleanliness in mind, a rough amount of time I am likely to invest, and a general level of effort I am going to put into it. It is a purely subjective scale and it's unlikely anyone else has my exact list of priorities regarding the task. When I'm working with someone else to clean/work/whatever, I still work within these limits, and try to be courteous to not run them over, nag them about meeting my expectations, or getting in the way because they are moving at a different clip.

When people presume that the people around them need to meet their expectations of effort and interest, they are setting everyone up for failure. If I know that my partner is only interested in putting in a certain amount of effort into a shared chore or activity, I need to face that reality. They are not my ward or my slave (fortunately), so I am not entitled to correct or nag them into doing what I want. They do what they want and I do what I want.

As grown autonomous human beings it is egotistical for me to imagine that other people need to live up to my expectations, if that is not their preference.

As a parent, you're not really expected to sneak off and play. That's not a taboo, that's not even being nice. It's doing your part in an event you're supposed to be doing your part in.

As a parent? This is a rule you are certain applies to all parents? I am glad that you have found a style of parenting which works for *you*, but I assure you, there is not one rule book which everyone follows, and even if there were, it is hilariously unlikely that this book would be correct for all situations.

Each person decides what their priorities are and how they spend their time and energy. Fitting into some arbitrary generalization might be important to some, but for everyone else, I suggest working within your own personal value systems.

 

[Mahogany]

First of all, please know that everything I am about to say below is meant to be helpful and is offered in the spirit of "tough love" and tell-it-like-it-is good will.

I sincerely appreciate your honesty.

Okay, a question-- what about couples that have a schedule, where one lover has the "hinge" three days a week, and the other has the hinge 4 days a week? Doesn't that also take away the spontaneity?

I don't believe I am in control of anyone. I know that I cannot control people, Bo included, hence what has happened. He has done things I haven't appreciated before, and vice versa. I am certain that we will both do things that we can't foresee upsetting the other in the future.

Now, with that said, "I am ALWAYS going to communicate to him how I feel. And it hurt me that he did what he did." I am only human. Yes, I did want to enjoy some adult time with my hubby. When don't I? However, I would NOT have done it with kids around. I don't wish it had been me, because I would not have enjoyed myself. I would have been too worried about the kids seeing and hearing something inappropriate.

Let me explain the environment. The adults had gone. Our kids were here, which included one 1-year old, two 4-year olds, one 13-year old, one 14-year old, and one 21-year old. We were winding down, cleaning up, and putting a movie on to settle the three littlest ones. I was picking up, and after I was done, I sat down on the couch with the kids.

I heard movement upstairs, creaking off and on. I looked around and noticed that neither Bo nor his gf were downstairs. I headed upstairs, where I found them. They might have even done more than a blowjob, but that doesn't matter. Sex is sex, right?

Everyone is different. I can't stop them from doing what they want to do. But all relationships have compromise. I can't just go and do whatever I want, whenever I want. Bo has expressed that, as well. Being a parent, you can't just go off and do whatever you want whenever. That's the responsibility of being a parent.

Me expressing my hurt was nothing more than that. I am not withholding things from Bo, nor am I still mad at him. We are all back to our loving relationship, gf included. It just took me aback, what they did.

To me, it is weird to have sex with kids alert and around. Who's to say that the teenagers or my oldest did notice that they snuck upstairs together? Gf's daughter is the 13-year old. We've all agreed that we weren't going to tell our kids about them yet. Yet, they didn't think that it wouldn't be noticed that they were up there fulfilling their fantasy of forbidden sex?

If it had been an adult party, I would have laughed at them for being crazy, maybe even asked them to stay, be sneaky, and help me "rise to the occasion," if you know what I mean.

It happened. I didn't think it was in good taste, but I am not their "grandma" wagging my finger at them. I haven't even talked to gf about it yet, to learn her thoughts.

All in all, I am human. It hurt me... for many reasons. They can be with each other whenever they want. And they have done that. THIS time was I was not okay with it.

 

[london]

Kids being in the house isn't a good enough reason for me to pass on a hook up with a lover when we are both all hot and bothered.

Children aren't made of porcelain. I'm sure that they will survive the dangerous trauma of not knowing that a couple of consenting adults quietly had a quickie in the bathroom somewhere in the same house. In my opinion the "children" argument is just obfuscating the reality of this very minor disagreement and need for adult communication.

Was there some agreement about when and where he is allowed to fool around with his gf? Do you have some kind of veto power or other control regarding what he can and cannot do with his body (and when)?

I respect Marcus. I really do. But when he says things like this, it shows either blinding immaturity or simply pure ignorance. We had this discussion about relationship anarchy on here before, and I said that people seem to use RA as an excuse not to behave appropriately or ethically. This is an example.

Your role as a parent trumps your role as a polyamorous sexual being every time. The issue here is not veto power or hierarchy, it's a parent who went and had oral sex with his girlfriend when he should have been cleaning up, sorting the kids, etc. That's being a mature, responsible parent.

I'm speaking about him rather than to him because he had me on ignore, but I have to highlight how juvenile this approach is.

 

[london]

Marcus reminded me above that it happened after the guests were gone and the party over. With that said, I don't see the big deal.

Furthermore, as Marcus illuminated, there was no standing rule. So, LR, there was no cheating, despite the Funk and Wagnall's definition. Colloquially, cheating involves sex, not what happened here. I'm a lawyer who drafts lawsuits based on fraud all the time, so I'm aware of the range of definitions.

NYC and Marcus both said it very well, so I won't recap the rest.

After a kids' party there is tonnes to do, including getting the kids to wind down.

 

[vanquish]

Yes, I'm aware.

 

[london]

So you understand why it is a big deal, then. You're aware that there were things that would have needed doing.

I see having to tell someone that this scenario isn't appropriate as directly comparable to telling a pet owner not to wash a kitten in the washing machine. Kind of like, if I have to tell you it isn't right, you probably shouldn't be a pet owner.

 

[vanquish]

Don't assume I come to your conclusion just because I acknowledge a fact. I don't. And my opinion is just as valid as yours.

 

[Tonberry]

The whole thing seems sorted out now, but my perspective on it, after reading Mahogany's second post, is quite simple. Bo asked her to sneak out and have sex. She really wanted to, but said they should wait until after the party.

Then, after the party, when things were winding down and she had time, she found that Bo couldn't wait, and went off with the girlfriend, instead. If it were me, I would have been pissed, after looking forward to it and wanting it. And yes, she turned him down, because she put her responsibilities first. The fact that he went for the next available person, and left her to deal with the responsibilities, would have hurt me, too.

It feels like being offered cake, and answering "Sorry, I need to fast until I get my blood taken, but I'd love cake after that." Then you get your blood taken, you turn around, only to see someone else finishing the cake.

I don't know about her partner, but most guys I know can't go a second time. And it's a V, so it's not like she could have sex with the girlfriend. So she was being left out after expressing interest. I'm sure there was miscommunication involved, not the least of which the fact that they snuck out without telling her, which makes it seem like they did it behind her back, something else I wouldn't have enjoyed. At least let me know. Don't hide it from me.

The fact there were children around is just the metaphorical blood being taken: the reason why she had responsibilities preventing her from enjoying what she also wanted. Sure, it doesn't mean nobody else is allowed to have cake, but at least let her know that "her" slice (because after being offered a slice, and saying you can't yet, but will later, you assume it's meant for you), is going to be given to someone else.

The timing also seems off. The party was just finishing, so Mahogany was just about to be available, and that's the time they chose to do it. It would have felt to me like "Let's do it quick, before she's available," which adds to the deceit.

Anyway, what's done is done. But I definitely understand getting upset in that situation. Yes, Mahogany turned Bo down, but not because she didn't want to do it, because she had responsibilities. And according to her post, she did tell him she'd be available later, after the little kids went to sleep.

 

[Mahogany]

When people presume that the people around them need to meet their expectations of effort and interest they are setting everyone up for failure. If I know that my partner is only interested in putting in a certain amount of effort in a shared chore or activity I need to face that reality. They are not my ward or my slave (fortunately) so I am not entitled to correct or nag them into doing what I want. They do what they want and I do what I want.

As grown autonomous human beings it is egotistical for me to imagine that other people need to live up to my expectations if that not their preference.

As a parent? This is a rule you are certain applies to all parents? I am glad that you have found a style of parenting which works for *you*, but I assure you, there is not one rule book which everyone follows and even if there were it is hilariously unlikely that this book would be correct for all situations.

Each person decides what their priorities are and how they spend their time and energy. Fitting in to some arbitrary generalization might be important to some, but for everyone else, I suggest working within your own personal value systems.

The other thing is that if one of the kids had seen something, heard something, and said something at school, what would happen then? How would a teacher/principal feel about two consenting adults "accidentally" having sex being exposed to a kid? I am sure that CPS wouldn't be called, but I can guarantee there would be a conversation about how to ensure it doesn't happen again. Sex should not be a part of a child's life. It can be traumatizing.

All I'm saying is that they should have waited until kids were asleep, and things were all done. I don't understand why that is too much to ask. Would they shriveled up and die from waiting until time allowed?

All in all, I expressed my hurt to Bo. He asked why. It was difficult for me to put my finger on why at the time. I processed and communicated with him again. We hugged, kissed. He understands.

His girlfriend/my friend has no idea we had this conversation. I plan on talking to her, in a friendly manner, not just about the act, but also about what to say if one of our children approached us about them. I don't plan on wagging my finger at her, but I do plan on explaining that I am not okay with this in my house. If she wants to do things like that at her house, after her daughter's party, that's her choice. When we are done talking, I hope we hug and move forward too. I am not trying to control her with my "passive-aggressive" behavior. But I do believe that we need to set clearer boundaries regarding our kids.