Wanted: Advice about an affair that may not wait

Let's see. If I were in your place, if I didn't feel bad after Val spending the night with Callie, if Val asked me to go spend some nights with Callie, instead of me, and I was feeling fine about it, I might have us schedule 1 or 2 nights a week when she sleeps with Callie instead of me (while Callie is staying there only, I mean, since it's not a permanent move-in, and hopefully doesn't turn into that).

If, after a week or two, I were comfortable with that, and Callie hadn't moved into her new place yet, I'd think about how I felt, and be open to seeing about a set 2 nights a week. (I would not volunteer this unless I was asked. It's important that partners be able to ask for what they want. And it's common for people to give more out of trying to be nice, and then come to resent it.) I wouldn't want to set the precedent that Val spend more than a couple of nights a week with Callie, because after Callie moves out, well, I wouldn't be okay with more than 2 date nights a week, with kids at home who need to be cared for.

I'd suggest not trying to negotiate things post-sex or post-argument however, and save those talks for early evening or weekends when your mind isn't being colored by being tired or overly relaxed.

I really hope that Callie speaks with Steve and clears things up. It seems like you two are being put in an awkward position, which could cause problems for everybody.
 
BraverySeeker said:
. . . I do know Steve is understandably distraught by Callie leaving, and demonstrably incapable of seeing her years of unhappiness with him as being unrelated to her new love for Val.

I replied that I didn't think he was asking the right question; that it was probably too late for him to show a willingness to accept the relationship between our wives. The question he should be asking, I said, was not how to open their marriage, but how to end their marriage as amicably as possible without scarring their two teenage boys.

I was under the impression that Callie had asked Steve for a divorce. She has said that outcome seems inevitable-- she's said that to Val, who relayed it to me. But she has been much less forthright with Steve. So it looks like I spoke out of turn. "I guess you know much more than I, because she won't talk to me," he said.

Fuck.

That side of this situation is very unsettling to me, I hate being pulled into the middle of it. Yes, Steve should know by now that Callie wants to end their relationship. But until she's unafraid to ask for divorce, he will continue to flail about, assume the separation is temporary, and say he'll try anything to get her back.
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You should feel unsettled about this. Awhile back, I wanted to post something about Steve, but internet connectivity issues prevented me from doing so. I just knew something like the conversation you described would eventually happen. Steve has been a very convenient scapegoat. All along, he has been painted as the Bad Guy, a schmuck who made little or no effort to keep his wife happy. You and Val eagerly hopped on that bandwagon and readily judged him. BUT ALL YOU HAD TO GO ON WAS CALLIE'S WORDS. People will twist a story any which way, when they want something. And this woman wants Val's pussy.

She also wants out of her marriage, and found a way to convince you both what a bad dude she is married to, and what a martyr she was. Sheesh. But a marriage requires two people each contributing 100%, so it is never just one person to blame. If she wasn't happy, what was her part in it? She seems like someone who is avoiding any responsibility, not taking a hard look at why she let her marriage fall apart, and now she only wants an escape into your wife's arms and into your happy home.

I have serious suspicions about Callie's ability to be honest about anything. I bet that, as long as she is involved with Val, that you and Val will be fighting and at odds with each other more often. I would caution both you and Val to keep more distance between you and Callie until her marriage issues are resolved, and she is either in it, and it is functioning and happy, or she is completely out of it. I think she is Trouble with a capital "T."

BIG RED FLAG!
 
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BraverySeeker said:
On another front, Steve called me out of the blue late last week to ask me when Val and I decided to open our marriage. Truthfully, the thought never occurred to us before my wife and his fell for one another. But although I do not know him, I do know he is understandably distraught by Callie leaving and demonstrably incapable of seeing her years of unhappiness with him as being unrelated to her new love for Val.

I replied that I didn't think he was asking the right question; that it was probably too late for him to show a willingness to accept the relationship between our wives. The question he should be asking, I said, was not how to open their marriage, but how to end their marriage as amicably as possible without scarring their two teenage boys.

I was under the impression that Callie had asked Steve for a divorce. She has said that outcome seems inevitable - but she's said that to Val, who relayed it to me, but has been much less forthright with Steve. So it looks like I spoke out of turn. "I guess you know much more than I, because she won't talk to me," he said.
Fuck.

That side of this situation is very unsettling to me, and I hate being pulled into the middle of it. Yes, he should know by now that Callie wants to end their relationship. But until she's unafraid to ask for the divorce, he will continue to flail about, assume the separation is temporary, and say he'll try anything to get her back.
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I don't have the strong reaction NYCindie did to this part of your post. I don't see the red flags she does. It is unfortunate that you got put in the middle inadvertently. However, Callie should have informed Steve that she is filing or has filed for divorce and they are done. No hope. Kaput. She may have good reasons for not talking to him, or she may be afraid for herself. But if she is only afraid of hurting his feelings by telling him they are done and that she is/has/will be filing divorce papers - that's not good. That may be a pattern of avoiding pain and unpleasantness. Steve sounds completely clueless, but Callie may not have wanted to rock the boat either. Or maybe not. But be aware.

As for you, I realize you feel for this guy and want to help all involved. But he is fishing for information - and that information may end up in the divorce papers. He may be looking for something to damn Callie with. You can't help him at this point. It's too late. You've basically picked sides. I would not suggest talking to him again. Just tell him you wish him the best. Tell him he needs to go contact his wife. Then hang up.
 
I was under the impression that his wife had asked for a divorce. She has said that outcome seems inevitable - but she's said that to Val, who relayed it to me, but she has been much less forthright with Steve. So it looks like I spoke out of turn. "I guess you know much more than I, because she won't talk to me," he said.
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Ugh. Back to the drawing board.

I go back to previous advice from post #2.


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d) a postponement of a deeper relationship between these two women entirely until the other marriage is resolved or dissolved
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Best and cleanest. Nothing wrong with being friends, and her finishing up with the old romance configuration with Steve appropriately (monogamous relationship) before beginning a new one with Steve (open poly-ship or a divorce, depending), and then a new one with Val (as girlfriends) and a new one with you (as a metamour).

In those shoes, I'd hope my DH had some self respect; that he felt he was worth waiting for and dating nicely and appropriately. Tell the potential person something like this:

"I care for you, too. But my wife and I have ethical agreements to meet before taking on new partners. So go home and sort your thing out with your husband. Patch it up to Open Well, or Break Up Well first, so things are clean. Then look me up. Don't be involving me and my wife in drama if you claim to love me so. That is not loving behavior toward ME. That is also not respectful behavior to my wife, your potential metamour. Disrespect to my wife is disrespect to me. Love me and respect me enough to date me nicely and appropriately."
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Finish with the old before moving on with a new. This is not cool. :mad:
 
Val and I had our first session with the poly-friendly therapist. I'm not sure how I feel about how it went. I sure was under the microscope. I was told that I was "a beautiful man," but one who may not be as okay with everything as he thinks/wants to be.

I challenged the therapist a few times, even questioning the evolutionary psychology stuff she was throwing out about men being wired with jealousy to preserve their paternal claims, which the authors of Sex at Dawn quite effectively call BS (which maybe I ought not to have mentioned in so many alphabetical letters). Although I was trying to answer her questions thoughtfully and fully, nearly breaking down with tears at one point, she said she felt like she was "pulling teeth," told me to "bring it" with my questions about the process, before she asked flat out, "Why are you in therapy if you think you've already answered these questions?"

I've never had therapy, but push and pull like this, especially at the first session, is to be expected, right? She's looking to break me down, and while I expect and welcome that, I would prefer to have more say over the pace.

Among other things, the therapist extracted from me opposition to Val spending nights sleeping with Callie and not me, not that that was difficult to extract.

Callie left our house as scheduled, after spending five nights in the guest room, with Val for one of them. Now this weekend Callie is moving back into her house with Steve and their teen sons, to at least see if the family can be kept intact. She reportedly doesn't have high hopes, but doesn't want to one day regret not trying.

I expect that Steve will welcome that, but will also want her to stop dating Val. Having just spent much of the past week uncomfortable and anxiety-ridden in my own house, while Callie was in it, I'm in so morose and pessimistic a mood at the moment, I'm in danger of asking for the same. I just had an argument with Val, in fact, about how the therapist may be right, that I'm not okay with all this. It was really an argument about her and me not having talked (or made love) in the few days since our therapy session.

I told her, like a whiny little bitch, how I see her "making time" for Callie, while our time together only diminishes. Plans for a date night fell through for lack of a sitter, and her suggestion that we watch a movie after the kids go to bed is unappealing, knowing she'll be asleep before the end of the opening credits.

All I'm saying is that Callie is not the only one who needs to get her shit together.

They dynamics are about to change, I suspect, with Callie giving her marriage another go. She's apparently less sure that will work out than she is convinced her relationship with Val will stand the test of time. I, however, have not heard directly what her intentions may be. She has not proven able to communicate with me about these issues, so I've had to rely on Val as the messenger.

How do metamours best learn to communicate and tolerate one another? I reckon I can trust Callie. I just increasingly feel she and I need to be able to talk frankly and work through some issues about our expectations. That will likely need to wait until she and Steve can work on their marriage together and through joint therapy, which they've apparently agreed to do. No doubt she'll try to get him to accept her ongoing relationship with Val, although the nature of that may need to change, too. Addressing my needs will drop down to a third tier of priorities for Callie, which is fine with me.

But if I think there are unresolved issues between Callie and me, why wouldn't Steve feel the need to hash out ground rules with Val? I've been semi-sympathetic to his plight all along, but I've also been propagandized by the ladies into seeing him as little more than a condescending and vengeful prick. He may well be that. But at some point, Callie chose him and stayed with him for some 20 years. All the same, I'm not eager to deal with him directly, or see Val have to.

This poly stuff is complicated. I'm starting to understand the attraction of emotionally detached swinging, although that's not my/our bag. I'd call it a "cluster fuck," but that sounds a lot more fun than what's actually happening.
 
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BraverySeeker said:
But if I think there are unresolved issues between me and Callie, why wouldn't Steve feel the need to hash out ground rules with Val? I've been semi-sympathetic to his plight all along, but I've also been propagandized by the ladies into seeing him as little more than a condescending and vengeful prick. He may well be that, but at some point, Callie chose him and stayed with him for some 20 years. All the same, I'm not eager to deal with him directly, or see Val have to.
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Because he's not in relationship with your wife! Why would either of you expect to approach and lay down rules for your wives' girlfriends to follow? They have their own relationship; you have yours; he has his.

You manage your marriage and set boundaries for yourself and Val. He does the same for his marriage and his wife. These boundaries should apply whether Val is involved with Callie or someone else. If Val can have a relationship with someone, and respect the boundaries she and you agreed to, great. If Callie can have a relationship with someone and respect the boundaries she agreed to with Steve, great.

Is it that you think that everything has to be managed as a group? Not unless you're all living together communally. But I would say you are all a very long way from that! I hope you do not intend to let Callie move in with you and Val. That would present a whole new set of problems, and you are obviously not ready for something that! It's generally advised to wait at least a year before a new partner moves in and becomes part of a household.

You can only benefit from being very cautious. And perhaps it is quite reasonable to ask Val to take a break from being with Callie (who, as I said, doesn't seem to be totally honest, or very trustworthy, IMHO) while you devote yourselves to therapy (whether with this therapist or another) and addressing issues.
 
I would try to find another therapist. I know it was probably hard to find this poly-friendly therapist--but something about how you describe your first session with her sounds really "off" to me. Her approach and her attitude towards you sound wrong.

--Speaking as someone who spent several critical months with the wrong therapist, but felt too guilty to stop seeing her because I thought I was right to keep pushing myself and keep facing hard "truths."
 
Quick update. I have not been on this forum for a month...

Things are good on the poly front here. A couple weeks back, Callie and I met one-on-one for coffee and to try to get to know each other and become more comfortable with each other. I think we accomplished that. When it came to sharing our feelings about Val, we both shed some tears.

It took some coaxing to get it out of her, but Callie's primary concern was for what she perceived as my "veto power." When I asked for her expectations she said, "I don't think I can have any."

I assured her that I do not feel I have the ability or right to stand in the way of their relationship. I tried to impart how I have loved Val since I was 14 (I am now 42) and how that love has changed; deepened and intensified in surprising ways. I am so grateful for her in my life that I cannot imagine denying her what her heart desires, which is no longer only me. I told Callie I felt profoundly connected to her for her ability to see and love the qualities in Val that I see and love.

I assured her that they would have the time together they both desire.

She's separating from Steve for good this time, which means she'll soon be in her own apartment, where she and Callie can spend time they haven't had, but want, together. That will be a game changer, no doubt. But I think I'm ready to handle Val spending a regular night or two a week away from me to be with Callie.

The compersion creature I am most of the time requires constant care and feeding, I admit, but it's getting easier.
 
I'm glad things are going better. You sound like you are doing an awesome job with caring for your "compersion creature." :) Great image!
 
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