What's "normal" in polyamory?

WhatHappened said:
Here's another option: See this as a man who is hurting rather than viewing him as some patriarchal goon 'telling you what to do.' Most people wouldn't agree to their spouse sleeping with someone else in the first place. Most wouldn't even agree to try, let alone sleep with their sibling.
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I agree with you, and I have tried to view it that way. What I don't understand is why he's hurting when this was something that was acceptable a couple months ago. Now that Mark and I are involved and it's complicated and hearts will be broken, Neverwhere wants me to magically decide on my own that I don't want to date Mark anymore.


WhatHappened said:
But what it boils down to is this: it's causing a great deal of harm in your marriage, regardless of what is normal. What I'm trying to tell you is, it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks is normal, because they're not the ones who are going to have to face the fallout, either way. YOU AND YOUR HUSBAND AND YOUR CHILDREN are the ones who will have to live with the consequences, not any of us strangers on a forum.
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Our marriage history makes me feel more stubborn about this. I feel like for four years I gave and gave, and got nothing in return. It's only been in this past year that Neverwhere started to give back too, and participate in our marriage. And he'd be the first one to admit that to you. There was an affair he had when I was pregnant, verbal abuse, physical intimidation, a drug and alcohol history, all of which we worked on in therapy and got through. But I am still resentful at times. I guess I feel like this is just one more decision being forced upon me. :(
 
SchrodingersCat said:
In my opinion, he needs to leave. He's tried to get ok with you dating his brother, but he can't. He's asked you to stop dating his brother, but you don't want to, and it's not his right to force you. So, if he doesn't like the situation he's in, he needs to leave it.

We don't get to control the behaviours of others. We only get to control our own behaviours. He has 4 choices for his own behaviour:
  1. get ok with it
  2. leave
  3. stay without liking it, but stop making a fuss about it
  4. stay without liking it, and keep making a fuss about it

Making you leave Mark is not on his list of options. So far he's been choosing 4. It is his prerogative to keep doing that until he drives you away, but it won't be pretty. While it's true that leaving Mark is on your list of options, that's not at all up to Nevermore and he has to stop thinking it is.

You seem firm that you don't want to choose. So it's up to you to show him that you're resolute, that you are NOT going to make that choice, and that you want him to stop asking for it IMMEDIATELY because it's disrespectful and hurtful and manipulative. In other words, stop letting him believe that making you choose is actually on his list of potential behaviours.

Every time you come here and try to find any other way out, you're sending him the message that he just has to try harder, find the right angle, push just your right buttons, and eventually you'll give in. Let him know that it ain't gonna happen and if he really feels that the situation he's in has got to end, then it's his responsibility to end it by walking away. Period.
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This is ultimately how I feel, but I don't know if I have the strength to stick with it. I don't want to lose my husband. I love him. He knows Mark is not his replacement. Even Mark knows that we don't have the same connection that Neverwhere and I do. But Mark would also never make me choose. He has not once said that my husband was being a jerk and I should just leave. He has stayed neutral, refused to tell me about conversations he's had with Neverwhere about this, and has not tried to sway me one way or the other.

I hate feeling forced into things. It's how I've lived my whole life and I'm so sick of it.
 
What happens if you drop Mark?

Will Neverwhere live happily ever after with you? Will you be devastated?

What happens if you drop Neverwhere? Will Mark happily raise the kids? Will you be devastated?

What happens if Neverwhere drops you?

You state you don't want to lose your husband and you love him, and you say the same thing about Mark.

It's easy for Mark to not make any ultimatums because he really doesn't have any leverage. I'm not sure it's honest to say he wouldn't make you choose, because you haven't placed him in that kind of situation.

That aside, it sounds like you want the situation where Neverwhere and Mark get along.

Well, then the only real solution is for Mark to make it a point to try to resolve his situation with Neverwhere. They are, after all, brothers. It's always in his capacity to work with Neverwhere to share; it's how brothers have to act their whole lives (until they get so tired of it that they move away, at least).

I mean, is that even on the table? You say Mark doesn't tell you about their conversations. I can't tell you why Neverwhere is hurting, he has to be the one to do it. I can't tell you why he and Mark can't get along; Mark can (or, if he isn't sure, he can figure it out).

I'm sorry I diverted the conversation about incest and taboo, it's really tertiary at this point. There's only two places you can look:

1) Mark-Neverwhere
2) You-Neverwhere
3) Neverwhere

Maybe it really is the fact that he is uncomfortable. Medication does in fact change your perceptions and personality.
 
Spock said:
What happens if you drop Mark?

Will Neverwhere live happily ever after with you? Will you be devastated?
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I'm thinking I would be very resentful and angry but it would eventually be repaired. Maybe. Though I have no doubt my husband would take every opportunity during any argument to remind me that I slept with his brother. This is how he is.

Spock said:
What happens if you drop Neverwhere? Will Mark happily raise the kids? Will you be devastated?

What happens if Neverwhere drops you?
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I would not ask Mark to help me raise my kids, or Neverwhere's kids. That would be the end of any hope at a coparenting relationship with Neverwhere. His ex already pulled that on him, hence why he and Mark have issues to work out. They cheated many years ago. Nevewhere and Mark worked it out, but it obviously must make Nevewhere feel inferior to his brother or something. Which is why it was so complicated when Mark and I got together. Amanda, the ex-wife, was really mad about it, and tried telling Neverwhere it was the same thing that she and Mark did. Neverwhere set her straight and said this was with his permission. Confusion.

I'd be devastated to lose Mark or Neverwhere, but more so Neverwhere, if I had to say one.

Spock said:
That aside, it sounds like you want the situation where Neverwhere and Mark get along.

Well, then the only real solution is for Mark to make it a point to try to resolve his situation with Neverwhere. They are, after all, brothers. It's always in his capacity to work with Neverwhere to share; it's how brothers have to act their whole lives (until they get so tired of it that they move away, at least).
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We have a family counselor I feel they should see together. Mark is willing. I don't know if Neverwhere is.


Spock said:
Maybe it really is the fact that he is uncomfortable. Medication does in fact change your perceptions and personality.
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He's not on meds. He tried one, didn't like the sexual side effects, and quit. He just went for craniosacral therapy today and got a few herbal remedies to try. Hoping that helps his mind to stop racing all the time.
 
JadeDoor said:
Our marriage history makes me feel more stubborn about this. I feel like for four years and I gave and gave and got nothing in return. It's only been in this past year that Neverwhere started to give back too, and participate in our marriage. And he'd be the first one to admit that to you. There was an affair he had when I was pregnant, verbal abuse, physical intimidation, a drug and alcohol history. All of which we worked on in therapy and got through. But I am still resentful at times and I guess I feel like this is just one more decision being forced upon me. :(
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Whoa, back up! Red flags here! There is no "got through" with spousal abuse and substance abuse. It is a constant ongoing struggle. It's very easy to slip back into bad habits of the past when things get stressful, or we are feeling insecure and out of control. Sounds like you guys need back into counseling ASAP. Deal with these aspects now before it gets worse.
 
Wait, what? Mark cheated on Neverwhere with Amanda?

So Mark has in fact done this before, except this time it's not cheating?
 
Spock said:
Wait, what? Mark cheated on Neverwhere with Amanda?

So Mark has in fact done this before, except this time it's not cheating?
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Yes, that is what happened. My husband and Amanda were married 10 years. Neverwhere had a drinking problem from before then. He and Amanda both had drug issues. Mark would frequently be out searching for Neverwhere at local bars and reporting back to Amanda if he could or couldn't find him.

This is something he avoided doing with me. He didn't want to make the same mistakes he had already, so as a result, he and I never leaned on each other for much. We had a friendship, but that was really it. I think I could count on one hand the number of times we hung out alone together.

I didn't even want to express an interest in Mark because of this history, but my husband guessed at it. It was really tense. In the end, when he agreed to it, and seemed so happy for a while, I really thought it would be okay. But then Amanda broke up with him, and his current gf found it weird that Mark and I were dating.

We've always had to keep it a secret, and not tell anyone they work with, or any mutual friends, etc.

I think the outside pressure is too much for Neverwhere, and he's afraid of looking foolish to the outside world, like I tricked him or something. I get it. But I wish he'd never agreed to us dating in the first place.
 
SNeacail said:
Whoa, back up! Red flags here! There is no "got through" with spousal abuse and substance abuse, it is a constant ongoing struggle. It's very easy to slip back into bad habits of the past when things get stressful or we are felling insecure and out of control. Sounds like you guys need back into counseling ASAP. Deal with these aspects now before it get worse.
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We have a weekly counselor meeting. Sometimes Neverwhere goes and sometimes he says he doesn't need it. I think he should go every week, whether it's with me, or by himself, or with Mark, or whatever.
 
In our poly agreement, siblings are a no-no.

I still stand by what I wrote before. The bottom line is each individual only gets to choose for themselves.

I am a SAHM and I homeschool my kids.

When Maca tried to force me to dump GG, I respectfully refused. Maca moved out. But the bottom line was that he can't make those choices for me. He can leave. He can't make me do anything.

The reverse is true. He considered (seriously) dating someone who was abusive towards me. I refused to have contact with her. I couldn't tell him he couldn't date her. But I could choose to remove myself from contact with her. That meant less contact between him and me, or he could choose less contact with her in order to avoid losing time with me.

You can choose to not accept the continued battle of the wills. Say no, and allow him the freedom to decide where he is going from there. But you can't change his mind and he can't force your hand.
 
Well, I told him I wouldn't choose, and we had a huge fight that ended with me shoved up against a wall. So... I have no self respect if I try to work this out anyway.
 
Physical abuse is common with alcohol/drug dependency issues.

You may have a counselor and you may be doing counseling. But it sounds like something more serious needs to be addressed.

As someone who has been abused, and is still married to the man who abused me, and is no longer in fear of being abused, I don't say this lightly. Abuse is never okay. Period. He and you need help to learn that ABUSE IS NOT ACCEPTABLE, and what is the appropriate reaction.

If Maca were to get abusive with me ever again, whether verbally, physically, emotionally, sexually, he would be picked up and removed from the house by the cops. Not only do I feel that way, so does he.

There is too much unhealthy behavior going on in your relationship to even begin to address the viability of a poly dynamic.
 
Just days ago we were saying how we've been through so much in our marriage that nothing would be able to break us up. Guess he found something. I'm in a state of disbelief at this point.

We've made it through so much that the sad part is I'd still stand by him while he got help, but I don't think he ever will.
 
You're dating the guy that in the past helped your husband's ex-wife cheat on him, the same wife that your husband also recently had an affair with after their marriage ended and he got together with you, the same guy whom your husband still hates (and also happens to be his brother)...! It is obvious to everyone that this is not the best of scenarios. Normally, I would not advocate losing the bf, but come on! You've seriously started a big mess here. You should never even have asked if you could date someone he seriously hates to begin with, before things got resolved. If things are ever going to work out, you will have to back off seeing Mark for a while, and let the brothers work out their issues without you in the middle. You should have seen this conflict coming.

And so should he. Neverwhere was stupid to agree to what he did, and hence he too has to take responsibility for it. He has no reason to give you grief for something he himself agreed to. Of course he can say, and does say, that you cannot continue the relationship, but he has a responsibility to make you cope with you not wanting to lose someone already in his life.

Heck, he also has a responsibility to his brother, both as his sibling and as his metamour. This is not something he can run away from, or try to solve with anger. He is in this mess now. He has to fix it. It is not like it is going to go away by ending the relationship. He is always going to know it ended because of him, and he will still see his brother. He has to really, really dig harder.

I'd say the same for Mark. He willingly entered all of this, despite the past conflict with Neverwhere. It is his responsibility to resolve his part of the conflict and convince Neverwhere things could work out. Normally, I would not say that short-term bf is part of the conflict, but since he also is the brother (and cheater from the past) he most definitely is.

P.S. Why does the ex-wife stay with you still?
 
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It occurs to me that the issue with Mark, and this whole concern over it being incestuous, may simply be a smokescreen. Would Neverwhere ever be okay with you having any relationship outside of the one you share with him? He may be trying to make this seem like rational reaction when in fact it's just normal jealous BS that will probably occur with anyone with whom you would choose to date.

As for the topic of incest, it is taboo because practicing it AND having offspring decreases the gene pool, increasing the chances for genetic disease. None of these issue are at play.

I am sorry. Shoved up against the wall is something no wife should ever have to tolerate.
 
bookbug said:
It occurs to me that the issue with Mark, and this whole concern over it being incestuous, may simply be a smokescreen. Would Neverwhere ever be okay with you having any relationship outside of the one you share with him? He may be trying to make this seem like rational reaction when in fact it's just normal jealous BS that will probably occur with anyone with whom you would choose to date.

As for the topic of incest, it is taboo because practicing it AND having offspring decreases the gene pool, increasing the chances for genetic disease. None of these issue are at play.

I am sorry. Shoved up against the wall is something no wife should ever have to tolerate.
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I wondered this aloud to him several times, if he'd be jealous of anyone. He said no and insisted it's only a problem with Mark.

Neverwhere is moving out tonight. I'm bitter. So is he. This isn't even completely about Mark for me, but rather about not being able to make choices for myself my whole marriage. Maybe we were never good for each other and we just pushed through because of our history-- our son together; how I almost died four years ago and he realized what it would be like to lose me. He got clean while with me. Quit drinking too. Maybe we've been fighting to hold onto all this hard work and we really don't have anything between us anymore.
 
When it comes to abuse, getting apart is important. And you always being forced to acquiesce to his demands is a form of abuse too.

I am sorry.
 
I feel for all of you in this unhealthy dynamic. I know what it's like to deal with a partner who gets clean with you. Maca got clean 1 month before we started dating. But getting clean does not address the addiction issue at all. There are a lot of mental and behavior changes that have to be made beyond getting clean. It is work many people don't bother to do.

I wish you the best.
 
I thought I would update. Things have been stressful around here. Tonight Mark, Neverwhere and I are going to our family counselor. I told her about the shoving incident and she agreed to see us for a double session tonight.

I honestly don't know what will come of it, but there will be too much resentment for me if I just bow down as I always have. I've come too far for that. So had Neverwhere. We will see tonight if he'll put in the work required.
 
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