Turnabout

I know that nauseous jealous feeling. Sorry you are feeling it. It sucks.

Dude, your husband is not being considerate. Does he want to leave you for this new woman?! Would it kill him to call and say, "Oh, hi, honey, I'm actually stopping off to see whatsername on my way home. Call you when I'm heading back? Do you need anything from the store?"

If you have to call before and after you see your other partner, why would it occur to him that that rule wouldn't apply to him? What does he have to say for himself?

I can see this is also making you re-examine how you acted with your new partner in that NRE stage, and that now you're thinking you may have neglected your husband more than you think. Have you talked about that with Sundance?

I hope I'm not similarly neglecting my husband the way Sundance seems to be neglecting you. He says he feels fine, but it's hard to believe that sometimes.
 
Carma, I don't think anyone would blame you if you said bingo, or if you decided to just be mono to save the marriage at this point. But you and Sundance would still have to live with the way he's treated this poor woman and you. You keep focusing here on your "selfishness", which seems entirely a reaction to his double standards (love is ok from his gf but not your bf), lack of respect for your boundaries (not following his own rules for calling, lying to you about their communications, etc), and his cruel lack of respect for her (I don't think I even need to begin with that one). It seems to me like if he was behaving responsibly, jealousy would be a far more minor issue for you.

Maybe he can't be responsibly poly, maybe it's go mono or divorce at this point, because I don't know how either of you can live with what he's doing. Just so, so wrong. I know you know that and I'm sorry for being so harsh, but this whole situation is just so upsetting... I really feel for Barbie.
 
I guess instead of bingo, a gentler ultimatum could be "Tell her the truth by the end of the week and, if she wants to continue things, set up a time for us to meet within a month max. Otherwise, bingo, right now."

I think that lack of honesty is a good "hard limit."
 
Carma, I second what Annabel and Michelle said and want to add that all this self-blaming you're doing has got to stop! I am certain that you did not neglect Sundance for years. I am certain that love happened between you and Butch when it was meant to. I am certain that you did nothing for him to be behaving this way. Sundance seems to be acting out some unexpressed anger here. This is not your fault, but dammit woman, you need to put your foot down and let him know how hurtful and unacceptable his behavior is! Sundance is being rather cruel to both of you. Stop saying it's your fault! You two need to work together on this.

AnnabelMore said:
I guess instead of bingo, a gentler ultimatum could be "Tell her the truth by the end of the week and, if she wants to continue things, set up a time for us to meet within a month max. Otherwise, bingo, right now."

I think that lack of honesty is a good "hard limit."
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Beautiful. Or just contact and invite her yourself. Why wait for him to do it?

Bingo! Bingo! Bingo!
 
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nycindie said:
Beautiful. Or just contact and invite her yourself. Why wait for him to do it?

Bingo! Bingo! Bingo!
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I was thinking the same thing. Tell him he needs to tell her what's going on and have you guys meet in the next week, or YOU will.

And yes, stop putting this all on yourself. The way he is treating you and her has nothing to do with you and EVERYTHING to do with him. Maybe it's because he's hurt, whatever-- you can be hurt without then hurting others, people do it every day.

Can you imagine how hurt she'll be finding out you KNEW he was going over to see her in the a.m. before work, that he told you about his times with her... and she didnt' know this?! Seriously... this situation is completely fucked up and unfair to both of you (you and Barbie). Butch needs to get his head out of his ass ...
 
In addition to Nre drunk ...he could be a little power drunk too. It may not occur to him rules he had as a struggling mono need to be followed for the poly partner...not the same issues.....different mind set and all that.

I don't think it would be to smart to get into ultimatum land....bad reactions happen....but clearly what do I know.
 
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I did NOT name Butch's. HONEST. (But yes, I was tempted to!) Wow -- now I realize how much that might have hurt Sundance, had he found out. It seemed like something juvenile to do with Butch -- he's just not the cutesy little nickname type.

More later.
 
Carma, after I wrote my last post, I went to lay down. I was tired and dozed off... started dreaming. Clearly my dream was influenced by your story/this thread.

In the dream, I was inside an apartment with my boyfriend - it was my former lover Dreamy, but we were still lovers in the dream. My husband was on the other side of the apartment door, in some exterior hallway that connected to another apartment. My boyfriend Dreamy and I had to be really quiet, while my husband was out there laughing and having a good time with his girlfriend. In real life, we're divorcing, so clearly he represents a new stage in my life. I could hear them and was jealous. Then he knocks on my door to flaunt her in front of me, introduces her, but I can't say who I am, and Dreamy is lurking quietly in the background. She makes some comments that clearly illustrate she's clueless about me, and my husband is gloating. I interrupt her babbling to say, "I can't talk right now," and shut the door in their faces. At that point, I was spitting mad! I then grab this artisan pottery, which my husband and I bought one year when we were on vacation, off the shelf. This piece has sentimental value to me in real life, but in the dream, I hurled it at the floor, near the door, because I wanted my husband to hear it break.

It bounces, with just a chip on its front. This makes me even sadder. I hurl it again and again and it doesn't shatter, just keeps bouncing! Futile. I am then so upset that I've damaged the pottery instead of breaking it. Hubs and his GF are still outside laughing and aren't aware of how angry and hurt I am, or even that the pottery's been thrown around. Then I woke up.

Now, I won't profess to say that the interior workings of my mind are all about you, but clearly it was about not communicating, anger, sadness, finding oneself in a new position in life, and the ramifications of choosing to hurt (blame) oneself (the pottery) rather than telling it like it is. Maybe sharing that will help you in some way?
 
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Thank you for pointing out that I am blaming myself for EVERYTHING. It's true. I am taking it all on -- it feels like I brought this all on myself, and I deserve it, for the shit I put Sundance through.

I've been journaling a lot, I'll try to formulate some things later. Kids all over the place today and all demanding something! Thanks for all the insight, everyone. nyc, the dream gave me food for thought -- THANKS.
 
Yesterday was awful! My god, I can be a total basket case. I am NOT good with this side of poly, at all! I told Sundance if he'd been the first to cheat, I couldn't have taken it. But of course, he would have NEVER cheated on me. He only started up with this girl because I was pushing it. I had hurt him, I felt bad and wanted him to find some happiness to balance things out, and he felt bad because his ego was wounded.

We came to poly from totally different places.

A new idea came to me in regards to it all. We are a team. If I love someone, Sundance will learn to love them too. Which he has. He cares for Butch Cassidy (just like in the movie ;)) almost as deeply as I do, and that is when our arrangement works best. Also there is a deep respect coming our way from Butch, as well, for each of us as individuals AND for our marriage.

Now with Sundance and Barbie, there are some blocks. For one thing, Sundance is not falling in love with her. He says he never will, actually. I have mixed emotions on that. I think he shouldn't be so sure, since SHE is in love with HIM, and she could endear herself. One day he could be hit by an arrow, totally by surprise. It happened to ME! I never expected to fall for another man, not ever, and one day, Butch and I held each other's gaze just a second too long and BOOM.

If he falls in love with her, I will devote myself to loving her, too, the same way Sundance has come to love Butch. I will do this for Sun, for me, for her, for all of us.

But as many people here have pointed out, I can't deny Barbie's feelings for Sundance much longer. And he's not going to be able to either. He has told her ALMOST everything..... That he will never divorce me, that he is staying with me and the kids no matter what, that he loves me. He tells her we are affectionate, but he has danced around (i.e. lied) about our sex life. I think she is getting the idea that we are a team, and that if she's going to be a part of his life, she's going to eventually be a part of mine. She and I may be cool with that, but there are a few things to consider. I don't think Sundance is into her that much, as far as joining lives. He either needed a fuck buddy, straight up, or a flirt buddy to be silly with but not serious. I think he is having a hard time figuring out what he wants and what he can handle. Understandable. The other big factor is, she and I have not met! (I know, nyc, you say have her over for dinner and get it over with already! Ha!) I think Sundance is unsure if he wants that to happen, because he is not sure he wants her in our life. And it will be interesting. What if I don't like her?! I am willing to open my heart, but only if SUNDANCE is! I think he's kinda afraid that she and I will hit if off, then he'll be stuck with her!

It is funny -- when Butch and Sundance go out together, I have a teeny little (immature, I know) feeling of being left out. Maybe Sundance is afraid of Barbie and I teaming up, and leaving HIM out.

Complex stuff.

At least for today, I'm not running around doing my Chicken Little routine. (Well, so far anyway -- the day is young! :rolleyes:)
 
Carma said:
If he falls in love with her, I will devote myself to loving her, too, the same way Sundance has come to love Butch. I will do this for Sun, for me, for her, for all of us.
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Carma, you can't force yourself to love somebody. It seems like you're putting a lot of pressure on your marriage to have to insist that both of you feel the same way about an outside partner. No wonder Sundance doesn't want to bring her over. He isn't sure how he feels about this girl yet, but already you're steeling yourself to LOVE HER IF IT KILLS YOU.

How long has Sundance been dating this girl? He doesn't need to love her yet, either. He seems to be showing her affection, and she seems so far satisfied by that, even though her feelings seem to be a bit stronger, so... maybe there's nothing to fix here? Theirs will hardly be the first relationship where feelings have progressed unevenly.

You two should sort out a few time management/notification logistical things, like how he has to call you before they have a date, etc.

But otherwise, maybe you need to take the pressure off from this situation somehow?
 
WOW -- perspective. I love this forum and I am soooooo grateful for the insight!

You are so right. The pressure is ridiculous. How can I know how I will feel about this girl, when and if I meet her? I get so dramatic. :rolleyes:

I've read here where some people meet the potential paramours together, before anything progresses. I see how that can be beneficial. I would not feel it necessary to "pre-approve" of Sundance's interests, but it might be better if there is a next time, to at least meet them before things progress to a sex/love level.

This whole thing has been quite the learning experience. Trial and error. Some things, you just don't know how you'll feel about them until they actually happen. I had NO idea how jealous I could be; I really have never felt much of the emotion of jealousy before. It's like: :mad::eek::confused::(:eek: WHEW! Sure took me to the depths of my soul.
 
Carma said:
I think she is getting the idea that we are a team . . . I don't think Sundance is into her that much, as far as joining lives. He either needed a fuck buddy, straight up, or a flirt buddy to be silly with but not serious. I think he is having a hard time figuring out what he wants and what he can handle. Understandable. The other big factor is, she and I have not met! . . . I think Sundance is unsure if he wants that to happen, because he is not sure he wants her in our life. And it will be interesting. What if I don't like her?! I am willing to open my heart, but only if SUNDANCE is! I think he's kinda afraid that she and I will hit if off, then he'll be stuck with her!
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What you and he are forgetting is that SHE has a choice in the matter. He is doing her a terrible disservice by not filling her in completely, because she simply cannot make an informed decision without knowing everything.

Maybe if she had all the facts of the situation, she wouldn't even choose to be in this relationship. Maybe if she had all the facts, she would want to meet you. Or wouldn't. Maybe if she had all the facts, she'd want to slow down and temper her feelings. Maybe if she had all the facts, she would have some boundaries of her own that she wanted respected.
 
nycindie said:
What you and he are forgetting is that SHE has a choice in the matter. He is doing her a terrible disservice by not filling her in completely, because she simply cannot make an informed decision without knowing everything.

Maybe if she had all the facts of the situation, she wouldn't even choose to be in this relationship. Maybe if she had all the facts, she would want to meet you. Or wouldn't. Maybe if she had all the facts, she'd want to slow down and temper her feelings. Maybe if she had all the facts, she would have some boundaries of her own that she wanted respected.
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This!!

Hate to beat a dead horse but he's still presentin this all to her as you two are "together for the children" and not fully intimate lovers and partners.
 
If I put myself in her shoes, it would really be a doozy to find out that the guy I'm seeing, with whom I think we must sneak around a little, actually was encouraged by his wife to date me. That, after several weeks of feeling like we were a secret, to learn that his wife had full knowledge of our relationship and consented to his being with me... would make me feel used, I think. Like, "What? So, she sent you to me? And you've been pretending she didn't know? What am I, a toy?" I would also hate to find out that he shared little things with his wife that I thought was private, like my name for his penis or special words we joke about, when I had no idea she even knew about me ("Do you two entertain yourselves by talking about me?"). I'd feel like I'd made a colossal mistake by placing any trust in Sundance, if I were her. Now in rereading this, I hope it doesn't sound like I'm saying he shouldn't tell her, just the opposite. Especially because her free will is being disrespected as long as she doesn't know.

But I'll stop beating a dead horse, too!
 
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Until Sundance tells the entire truth to her, this dead horse should buck like crazy from all the beating.
 
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Thanks for being such a bunch of straight shooters. ;)

He's going out to dinner with her Saturday night. I'm hoping I can keep it together and not go spazzy this time.

Sundance said he's afraid to tell her the truth too abruptly, because he's afraid she'll get pissed off and end it, and he's not ready for that yet. He's not done having his fun, I guess, and I am hoping it ends soon, to tell you the truth. Not just for my own selfish reasons, but because he is not really into her, it's just the exciting sex on the side. He is playing her.

Before we met he was an absolute cassinova (sp?). Broke hearts left and right, used women, I mean, it was awful. It completely stopped when he met me and settled down. Now he is back to his old ways. I'm afraid he was only in remission or something! It was one thing to hear the old stories, it's another to watch it happen (and to be a bit complicit in it, right? I mean, how much of this am I responsible for, to this girl???) He's using her. It's not okay. He says she knows where she stands with him. I say, clearly she does not. She's gaga. It's not fair. He needed to tell the 100% truth from day one and find a girl who could handle it.

I love Sundance and he really is a great guy. But he needs to consider her feelings more. Still, I need to focus on me and what I'm doing -- I can't be too far into his head or I go out of mine.
 
Carma said:
I love Sundance and he really is a great guy.
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I'm going to say this with toughlove and as someone with a hubs that sometimes does shitty things to people. You love him and accept him as he is. But he is NOT being a great guy, he is being an asshole. I've had to tell hubs sometimes when he does something crappy to someone else it makes me like him a bit less. It doesn't matter if he's not doing it to ME, it shows me he's capable of being an asshat, and makes him less attractive and just... less. An example is when he "little white lies" people to make things easier on himself. I see that and my trust in him falls-- because if he does it to them it means he most likely can/will/does it to me. And thinking "oh he does that to her/him/them, but would NEVER do that to me" is naive.

If Sundance doesn't watch it you will find yourself seeing him in a different, not so pretty light, no matter how much you love him. He might think what he's doing has no affect on you and him, but it does, and it will. And maybe he needs to hear that.
 
Minx, so spot on. After the initial scramble that my emotions went through, I can see why there is such discomfort with this part of it. When I put myself in her shoes I feel crazy, maybe even crazier than in my own! I got us into a poly arrangement because I was such a compassionate person. Now I can't expect to put that compassion aside, when it comes to her. Many people have spoke up here on the forum about her feelings, to which I was not giving much consideration up til now.

I think he will eventually break it off with her, but if it does continue I am going to have to put some pressure on him to come clean about it. He can't just use her like that. I guess initially I didn't care who he used, just as long as the pressure was off of me a bit, and he was getting his ego boosted. Well, I still think she should have known better than to get involved with a married man who said from the get-go he'd never leave his wife. Isn't she seeing some of the holes in his story? She will, eventually.

The little white lies I'VE caught him in are doing a freaky number on me, I know that much. Today I called him and he left work for a little bit, he said he's at the park sitting in the sun for an hour (he loves to tan). He doesn't do this very often -- usually his work ethic is very extreme. I feel surprised because my first suspicion is: wow, it's really THAT important that he be tan and look good for his date with her on Saturday night, that he'd leave work and go tan for an hour?! My second suspicion: is she is sitting right there at the park WITH him? (He works about 2 hours from home, so it's not like I'd ever know).

I'd never know. See, that's what is eating at me now. I am afraid even if he says he's ended it with her, I'll never really believe that. He's lied to me about little things, he's lied to her about big things, and I am scared. I damaged the trust in our marriage badly enough. Now this has only opened a new can of it. I'm not sure where this is headed but it seems pretty sketchy sometimes.

Then when he does share things with me, details about what happens with her, I feel grateful for his honesty and yet at the same time I feel a little like some creepy voyeur. (Is voyeurism creepy? Should I feel bad about it?) He told ME he told HER that he tells me things, but, how can I know that? Ugh. Exhausting. I don't want to be suspicious. I don't want to doubt him. I think the only way for this to work is for me to meet her, and for us to all be on the up and up. If he can't do that, we're going to have problems. I don't have to be her friend but she and I both need to know what's up. It's true, I think -- she is going to love me more than Sundance. If for nothing else, for my honesty. I don't play the games he does.
 
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