Turnabout

Glad to hear living like roommates has worked out for some others -- it's an option I'm really interested in. Can't say Sundance is, exactly, though. He is trying to hug me and act like we're a happily married couple, then he gets hostile when I don't respond in kind. But he decided we aren't going to have sex anymore, so what am I supposed to do? The boundaries are not very clear. :confused: I am trying to be civil, keep things light, respectful and courteous. He can't stand that. He thinks I'm being bitchy. Well, I'm not being all lovey-dovey, or talking a lot; I'm being a bit introspective and reserved.

And I'm a little irked. Friday night he went out with Barbie, said he wouldn't be late, even said he may meet me up at Karaoke (I went with my theater friends for awhile). I was home by 11:15. He ended up coming home at 2:00 in the morning. No call or text to let me know he was on his way or anything. I was a little worried he may have fallen asleep at the wheel or gotten a DUI, but common sense told me he was just lost in her, and it's time for me to work on accepting that.

Hard to accept that when the next day he's trying to hug me super tight, saying he loves me and trying to look deeply into my eyes. I just wanted some space, you know? I need to detach a little bit. For my own sanity.

He keeps trying to reinforce to me that she doesn't mean anything to him!!! Still!!!

Well, that just pisses me off more. Because it's either a lie, or he's just a jerk. Why would he spend that much time with her, away from me and the kids, if she "means nothing" and WE are his priority??? He could at least admit that he's developing feelings for her! I mean, I saw the texts where they said "I love you" to one another. So what's the deal? Is he playing her, or is he playing me?

Or BOTH?

The only way to do this is to open your heart to love, and commit to being honest about it. He's not doing that. I said yesterday that poly was a fail, for us. He said, "What do you mean? I don't think so! You just didn't give it enough of a chance!"

Ok, forum friends, does 2+2=5???? Would any of you say I haven't given poly a chance?????? Who's the one who actually worked at this, who came to the forum, who read and read and read, asked for help and advice and input?????

Another thing, our bank account got overdrawn and we are really, really broke right now. He said Saturday morning, "Oh, I borrowed $100 from [my secretary at work], so I got some food." Ok, am I supposed to be stupid? I HIGHLY DOUBT he borrowed that money from his secretary; he borrowed it from Barbie. Now, I realize he's afraid that telling me that might make me mad. But I am a nice person, I really am. I've been open to bringing her "on our team." I could have appreciated that she helped us out -- instead, I'm put in a position of resentment, because he can't trust ME enough to just tell me the truth and allow me to feel appreciative towards her. He tries to make me look like a crazy psycho. I'm not. I'm angry with him for lying. Ok, and yes -- when someone lies to me, I do feel like I'm going insane!

(And I did get really nasty. I said, "I know it wasn't your secretary, it was Barbie. What, she's paying you to fuck her??" I know that wasn't a very nice thing to say, it just came out. I'm mad about him lying, and I'm mad about him downplaying their relationship. Can't he just say, "She loves me, she cares about me and our family and she wanted to help out?" I wish I hadn't gotten snotty. :( I wish I could have said, "Oh, she must really love you, and care about our family. How sweet of her." But I was too clouded with anger over the stupid lie. :mad:)

He tried getting nasty about the things I have written here in my blog. He said he can't believe I told people all of our business. He also said I lied about things, and he's going to come here and set things straight. As you can see, he never wrote a thing. First he said he was still composing. Then he said he was too tired. Then he said I have already turned everyone against him. I said, "These people don't really 'know' you. Tell your side of things! Defend yourself, man!"

If he shows up, it could get interesting! :rolleyes:
 
If he had a connection to the forum and a need for the advise and support it would make sense to come and share his side of the story. But now his mind and (whats the new nickname for Mr. happy)..... ( little Elvis ) are focused elsewhere.... waste of time and effort for no real gain to argue with the poly lynch mob....plus he already knows he fucked up some stuff and doesn't need it pointed out to him.
 
Why not tell people "all your business" on an anonymous forum? What is the potential for harm? We don't know you, we can't materially affect your real life. If you're seeking nuanced advice, it's pretty useless if you don't share all your relevant business.

What we can do is provide support and advice and that, Dh, would be the advantage of Sun coming here. Carma has listened to our advice, to some deree. If Sun thinks that advice was based on faulty info, then it might behoove him to set the record straight so thay we can give his wife better counsel and maybe actually help their marriage, if that's still the goal. Maybe it's presumptuous, to think we can really help, but enough people have said they've been helped that I believe it.
 
DH, Sundance is a member here and has posted a little before. Sundance's post in Freetime's thread was very interesting -- he said he told Carma to go ahead and be with Butch because he couldn't stand dishonesty. He also talked about having a hard time believing in his own lovability. It was a very insightful post. Later in that thread, Sundance wrote something else quite interesting:
sundance said:
I am beginning to wonder if I might also have a capacity for poly love. Watch out Carma, my old devil is rising and he feels hot, young and virile.
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All throughout this thread and other's of Carma's several of us have said that it would be good for Sundance to post his side of the story AND that we're not going to shoot him down. It may seem that he's been vilified here, but all of us who have been in relationships know there are two sides to every coin. While we all love Carma and feel for what she's been going through, we're only seeing her perspective. And we're not stupid. His perspective is probably quite different.

It could be very illuminating and conducive to healing for both of them to read each other's side of the story. Sometimes writing things out allows a person to access another part of our subconscious that we just can't do when expressing ourselves verbally. Sundance coming here would also allow us to have a deeper understanding of the whole situation, because we'll see his point of view, which would enable giving them both more helpful feedback. No one here is part of a lynch mob or going to browbeat him, though I am sure most of us here will "tell it like it is" in the spirit of tough love.

So, Sundance, we all hope you will post.
 
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cindie,

I knew he was a member and posted a few times.....I think my use of the word connection has been misinterpreted. I was thinking in terms of him having developed a few or( many) relationships here and with that may want to set the record straight from his point of view.

You can certainly speak for yourself about shooting him down but that's a pretty bold statement to make about others here. I've seriously considered packing it several times recently....so I can see his trepidation....its not that "it seems he's been vilified here" ..... he's read this blog and stated that he feels vilified here...everyones turned against him.....hence the lynch mob comment.

I'm not suggesting that he not post ....or that it wouldn't have a value to do so....it may. I'm just trying to look at this from his point of view....and I could be way off...I hope I am.

I think it pretty clear their problems go back farther than their foray into poly....and who here is qualified to untangle that.....by committee it sounds impossible if not harmful.
 
Wow, NY, I just went back and read his posts back then. We actually were being successful at polyamory! I hope Sun will come read this. He's really down today. I don't know what's going on with the gf. I don't get their relationship, at all. :( Since I don't think he's being honest about it anyway, there's really no way of knowing. And I get the feeling she would cover for any of his dishonesty, so there's no point in calling her to "get the truth." I don't want to waste time speculating. If they're trying to make a plan to be together, or if he's just helping her through her issues in life, whatever is going on he does not want her and I to meet or to be friends or even acquaintances. And she has my number; she could call me.

For now I am trying to mind my own business. They are going to work their relationship out, one way or another.
 
Carma said:
. . . whatever is going on he does not want her and I to meet or to be friends or even acquaintances.
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So now he controls who you can and cannot be friends with, reach out to, talk to? Sheesh, Carma, if you wanna call her, do it. It's not up to him. You've already established contact with her, and he doesn't own her. Crikey, she's just another fucking person.


Edit: Sorry, I didn't mean to come on so strong.
 
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Carma said:
If they're trying to make a plan to be together, or if he's just helping her through her issues in life, whatever is going on he does not want her and I to meet or to be friends or even acquaintances. And she has my number; she could call me.
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That, to me, is a big red flag of dishonesty. Not wanting you two to meet indicates he doesn't want you to start talking and finding out the discrepencies in what he's been telling both of you.

It's the very opposite of open, honest, relationships with multiple people.

:(
 
Yes, I see the big red flag(S) too. It's what to do about them that has me mixed up. I don't want to play guessing games. I've told him just not to talk to me about her. He still tries to stick little comments in, like yesterday, he said, "I haven't heard from her, and I'm glad...." I SUSPECT that's not true. But I don't want to be in the position to decide whether it's true or not.

I have different scenarios in my head, but then I realize, it doesn't matter what is going on between them because I am choosing to be indifferent about it anyway. But it is sad, because Sundance and I were married for almost 13 years, and we used to talk about everything. :( There is definitely some grieving going on.

I think she is not someone he wants to settle down with. But he is afraid if he and I break up, he needs to have a back-up plan. So he is keeping her on the backburner. But actually, he is spending so much time and energy on her, the one on the backburner is ME. So I don't understand WHAT he is doing, really.

Unless he's decided she is the one he wants to be with, he's planning to go to her, and he is trying to keep me mellow until he makes his move. In which case, he is planning to SCREW me in a divorce, and the two of them are plotting how best to do that. He's in a pretty bad position if that's what he wants to do, because it's hard to screw over your ex-wife without screwing over your kids. I don't think he would do that, but he may be thinking he can get custody of them or something. Again, I can't imagine him finding a way to do that -- I'm a good mom, and I'm willing to share custody, anyway. If he's concocting some big plan, he really should let me in on it, because I am willing to work with him. Why do it secretively?

No, I think it's probably more the first scenario. I don't think he wants to be with her, officially.

I think he wants to be a cheater.

Isn't that weird, when the option of honesty was presented to him??

I don't want to be married to a cheater. I don't want to share my husband with a stranger. I don't want to be complicit in his dishonesty to HER, either. But it seems he and I want different things. So I like the roommate idea best for now.

Thanks, cin, but I guess I'm not sure if I even want to call her, anyway. What would be my motive, I keep asking myself. If she gets pissed off and breaks up with him, I win, right?!? I get back a husband who would rather lie to me than not! Who says he understands my feelings for Butch and is ok with it, but really isn't. Who wants to manipulate me into being monogamous, instead of flat out admitting he doesn't want to live that way. Who will keep girls on the side and lie to us all, just to keep the upper hand.
If I call her, will I get more lies and cover-up: "Oh, I'm not even seeing Sundance, we only talk business, he's like a best friend, I really want to work on my relationship with my unavailable boyfriend; Sundance loves you soooo much..." all the while she is thinking, "Soon I will win him over and you will be sorry, and it serves you right for not appreciating him, for falling in love with another man...."

I don't trust my husband OR his girlfriend. And the sad thing is -- it didn't have to be this way. :(
 
Oh, Carma. You're just guessing!!!

Communication has broken down between you, and telling him not to talk to you won't help. The number you're doing on yourself trying to figure it out without talking to each other...

I feel for you, but...

I don't know. I just don't know what to say!
 
You're making a good number of assumptions about how your husband and how his girlfriend feels. He hasn't told you any of this, you're just sort of getting the feeling he feels this way. It's true he's not telling you anything, but you've also asked him not to tell you anything. I'm a bit confused.
 
MichelleZed said:
You're making a good number of assumptions about how your husband and how his girlfriend feels. He hasn't told you any of this, you're just sort of getting the feeling he feels this way. It's true he's not telling you anything, but you've also asked him not to tell you anything. I'm a bit confused.
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Me too. I can't follow this anymore; it gives me a headache. Good luck to you and i hope you find a way to work things out and move forward with your lives.
 
I know, the old saying: When you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME. :(

Dishonesty bites. :mad:

Inviting him to talk is only opening my ears and my heart to more possible lies. That scares me. I am not sure I can risk trusting him again.

Neon, my life gives me a headache too. :confused:
 
Carma said:
I know, the old saying: When you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME. :(

Dishonesty bites. :mad:

Inviting him to talk is only opening my ears and my heart to more possible lies. That scares me. I am not sure I can risk trusting him again.

Neon, my life gives me a headache too. :confused:
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I do kind of see you running in circles with this... and I do understand it some, I think, because I've spun in those circles as well.

I don't have a lot of advice to offer, but I do have a little.

Stop.

You need to stop spinning things around in your head because it's not getting you anywhere and you're only spinning your emotions in circles and that inevitably comes out in actions we usually regret. :eek:

I've been reading some Tara Brach (radical acceptance), but also listening to her audio talks she has on her website www.tarabrach.com. For ME, this has helped me immensely to stop the circles of obsessive thinking, of worrying about things that haven't happened yet, or what COULD be, etc. It also helps me get in touch with what I'm really feeling, and helps me just sit with that for a while.

And secondly, if you haven't already, you need to express to Sundance, calmly, that you no longer trust him. That because of that, you don't feel affectionate toward him because you feel it's a "play" or a "lie"-- whether or not it IS that-- that's how you feel based on his actions. That until he figures out what's going on with himself and can come to the relationship honestly--however that turns out-- you no longer want to play the games and dance the dance of "I love you go away". That you will be cordial and respectful, but affection is going to have to be put on pause until honesty comes to join it.

And then you need to leave him to his shit and take care of your own.

My experience (limited as it is) is that if you refrain from "feeding" into the craziness, it doesn't have quite as much gas and doesn't go quite as far. Without you playing your part, he will only have his own part (and hers) to work with.

Take care of yourself.
 
Minxxa said:
And secondly, if you haven't already, you need to express to Sundance, calmly, that you no longer trust him. That because of that, you don't feel affectionate toward him because you feel it's a "play" or a "lie"-- whether or not it IS that-- that's how you feel based on his actions. That until he figures out what's going on with himself and can come to the relationship honestly--however that turns out-- you no longer want to play the games and dance the dance of "I love you go away". That you will be cordial and respectful, but affection is going to have to be put on pause until honesty comes to join it.
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Hey Minx, maybe you were in my head -- or my bed -- last night?!? This is so close to what I said to him last night!!! This morning I feel so much better. We had a pretty good talk. He didn't sleep a wink, was tossing and turning all night, and I felt really bad for him. Finally I reached over and put my hand on his arm. We had a gentle conversation.

Actually a lot of our problems stem from him working 2 hours away from home (Barbie lives by his work, and is an associate of the company) and he is trying to live two lives and keep everyone happy while he is being split in two! And this has been going on for 12 years! I confessed that a big part of me wanted him to fall in love with Barbie and either have 2 wives, one here and one up there, or just go be with her, and get the kids as often as he can.

The problem is, he didn't fall in love with her.

Ok, part of me is disappointed, the other part relieved. She wasn't right for him, or for us. She is, however, still calling him and talking to him all the time, but he said he has become more like a therapist for her. He likes that, but he says she has far too many problems for him to get tangled up in her life. He said last Friday (that late night) was actually a disaster -- she took him to a football game in her home town, it rained the whole time, her daughter rode with them in the car and texted her friends the whole time (so he wasn't "bonding" with her -- again, I am not sure if I'm glad about that, or disappointed, for him -- do I wish the daughter would have been enamored with him? Well -- if he's not so crazy about the mother, then I think it was good that she was a rude little teenager!), Barbie's parents were at the game and he felt they gave him a bit of the cold shoulder because they know he's married with children, and he ended up dropping her and the daughter at her house and then driving 2 hours in the rain back home to a pissed off wife! I asked him why he didn't call or text to tell me he was on his way, and he apologized, and said he just felt shitty about the whole thing, wanted time to evaporate and just be home.

I pretty much believe him. :eek: Would you?

Well now we're back to, how do you have a marriage when you're gone so much, and by the time you do get home, you're exhausted from the commute? Then he goes to work out at the gym 4 times a week!

He agreed that some changes need to be made. It was good, because I wasn't blaming all our problems on HIM, it's our circumstances that make things especially bad. He is just stretched way too thin. Unfortunately, the job market sucks so bad right, now, it's not going to be easy to find a job closer to home. But he said he'll start thinking of some options.

And he was nice about my relationship with Butch again. Which is really cool. The past week or so I have shared some of my angst with Butch, over Sundance and his relationship with this girl, his dishonesty and my fears and suspicions. Butch never wavers in his advocacy for Sundance. He tries to put himself in Sun's shoes, and although he does not condone some of his behavior, he helps me consider things from a different perspective. He validates my feelings, but at the same time encourages me to be forgiving and understanding. I swear, I don't know how he does that!!! He totally loves me, and Sundance, and wants us to get along and stay married. He is definitely on the team -- when he could have easily said, "He's not the man I thought he was, wow, you should leave him (and i can have you all to myself!)" He never did that. He truly believes Sundance loves me. I think he really cares about what's best for me. And his ego does not trick him into thinking it's him! The same as I keep in mind that someday he may want a girl all his own, to be out of the closet with, and I will have to keep my ego out of it and want what's best for him, too.

In the meantime, I guess things have leveled off a bit. Thank you forum friends, for putting up with my Chicken Little routine! Apparently, the sky has not fallen. :eek::)
 
In your bed, huh? :D

I'm glad to hear that you two had a good talk. It's amazing what a little communication will do (when both sides are participating honestly!)

Maybe I related a bit more because hubs and I have gone through some of this dishonesty/trust stuff in our past. In the end, he was never TRYING to be dishonest, he just would panic or not really know what he was thinking, etc etc. Spun himself around a lot, needlessly, because he didn't stop and think, or communicate with me. It took a lot of time, and trust on his part, to finally realize opening up and being honest is MUCH easier. Part of that was me creating a safe space for him to be open, so not freaking out when he is honest. :)

I think that's why I thought about you working on your own happiness (contentedness?), because for me that helps so much with being able to be open, honest, loving and respectful for those around you-- even when they are reacting and confused and emotional and spinning around.

Tara talks about a story, where you go up to a dog to pet it and it snarls at you and snaps. The feeling you feel when that happens. Then you look down and realize the dog's foot is caught in a trap. So you start to see why the dog snapped-- it wasn't about you, it was because it was hurting and in pain. And in some way all of us have a foot in the trap.

Job situations suck!! Hubs is in the military and he's gone off and on for long periods of time, and it does tend to play some havoc with our connecting big time, so I totally get that. Maybe trying to just make sure of having some individual alone time together on the weekends where you can talk and hold hands and connect and stuff. That helps us a lot. :)

And Butch sounds like a pretty decent guy. And communicator! LOL
 
Carma said:
Another thing, our bank account got overdrawn and we are really, really broke right now. He said Saturday morning, "Oh, I borrowed $100 from [my secretary at work], so I got some food." Ok, am I supposed to be stupid? I HIGHLY DOUBT he borrowed that money from his secretary; he borrowed it from Barbie. Now, I realize he's afraid that telling me that might make me mad. But I am a nice person, I really am. I've been open to bringing her "on our team." I could have appreciated that she helped us out -- instead, I'm put in a position of resentment, because he can't trust ME enough to just tell me the truth and allow me to feel appreciative towards her. He tries to make me look like a crazy psycho. I'm not. I'm angry with him for lying. Ok, and yes -- when someone lies to me, I do feel like I'm going insane!

(And I did get really nasty. I said, "I know it wasn't your secretary, it was Barbie. What, she's paying you to fuck her??" I know that wasn't a very nice thing to say, it just came out. I'm mad about him lying, and I'm mad about him downplaying their relationship. Can't he just say, "She loves me, she cares about me and our family and she wanted to help out?" I wish I hadn't gotten snotty. :( I wish I could have said, "Oh, she must really love you, and care about our family. How sweet of her." But I was too clouded with anger over the stupid lie. :mad:)
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He finally admitted, he didn't get the money from his secretary. He said he didn't get it from Barbie, either. Supposedly it came from an account at work....(I won't go into the details). He lied to me when it would have much better served him to tell the truth. The stupid thing is, I knew he was lying, I just guessed the wrong truth. Then he accused ME of being paranoid!!! How often have I been the fool? How many times do I believe things he's said, when really it's been a lie? How many times have I been scammed by this man? How many lies he tells to cover up lies he's already told - LAYERS. I want to trust him, but how can I? This particular lie may or may not have had anything to do with Barbie, but it has everything to do with his patterns of dishonesty.

"Little white" lies -- or big lies? I fear they are all across the board. How many lies have gone undetected? How many times have I felt something just didn't add up, but I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt, and let it go? He certainly has never come to me and said, "I have a confession to make...." and I'm talking, big OR small.

I might be able to forgive. To understand "why" he lies, to empathize with his fear. But can I live with it?

I'm afraid I'm just waiting for the last straw.

With my ex, I waited toooooooo long. I was looking for justification for leaving, for breaking my family apart. Funny, because the fact that I knew in my heart walking up the aisle that I did not love him -- wasn't reason enough for me. Now here I am, with someone I love. Well -- do I love him, or the man I thought he was? How much of the true Sundance do I really know, to love? And again -- just because you love someone, doesn't always mean you can live with them.

I have to guard my sanity.

And then I feel horrible, because he admitted the lie to me, in a moment when we were getting along and he must have felt "safe." He must have trusted, that I would forgive him. Who am I to withhold forgiveness???

Then again, how can he forgive HIMSELF???

How can he live like this? Maybe he needs to be with someone who is also a little shady, who won't put such a high value on honesty -- ? Maybe Barbie really is that girl, and he is disgusted with himself, for not being "good enough" for me. Well, it's not a matter of "good enough;" it's a matter of healthy behavior. I can't afford to live a life of sickness and twisted truth. Maybe I'm actually just too broken and fragile, myself. :confused:
 
Ugh. "If you lie to me, I will abandon you."

Is this what I am saying?

But by his lying, isn't he abandoning me, in a way?

And then I think, wait a minute here -- I HAVE forgiven him, time and time and time again. I have chosen to give him the benefit of the doubt, and he has exploited that benefit. I have enabled him. I have helped to perpetuate his habitual lying. I have done no one any real favors.
 
It is a concern that he seems to be pretty irresponsible with money and then lies to cover it up. Your finances are tied together legally, and you have children, so this is very risky behaviour on his part.
 
I know that couple's therapists has come up before, I think money was the barrier? It's a shame because if it weren't, I might suggest finding a really good, reputable person and then make his attendance at sessions a requirement of your continued involvement with him as a partner.

I know we're a poor substitute but you could also, if therapy isn't an option, require that he read all your most recent posts and post a detailed response here in which he addresses the issues you've been raising and how he would propose to proceed. At least maybe having to do that publicly would force him to confront his inconsistencies.
 
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