Poly flip...marriage in trouble!

[Nox]

That's my point, and why we use "envy" instead of "jealousy." Jealousy has already gotten a bad rap and given negative connotations. Envy of Ted is more along the lines of "Wish I was making out with Susie," or even, "Wish I had someone to make out with."

Jealousy is more feeling, "Ugh, why are they making out? She should be making out with me!"

Right, if I like Ted. If I don't like Ted, it's jealousy. But I still want Susie to be happy.

As a personal note, when R, G, and J (T's other interests) are treating her well, I'm envious (though not enough to overcome my joy for her). When they are not, and she still spends time with them, I'm jealous.

 

[BoringGuy]

That is where the language gets in the way... We have tried to realize there is a difference between jealous and envy... So we go with the idea that you can have compersion and still be envious. Jealousy though, seems to be able to push out any compersion you might feel.

I agree with this completely. I could have said this myself, but you got to it first.

I do not believe that if two emotions are opposites, or complementary, or yin and yang to each other, that just because one is present the other must also be present, but is being canceled out by an excess of its counterpart. I don't believe that. If someone can provide evidence of a study that proves it, like if they hooked EEG electrodes to your brain and had you walk around for three days pushing the "Event" button any time you felt a strong emotional response to something, I would definitely consider reevaluating my position on this topic.

However, in my own experience, I find that when I am feeling jealous and talk myself out of it, that's just a form of self-administered cognitive therapy, and there is no compersion to be found on the other side.

 

[Nox]

That seems way too simple for me. There's often more than two people and more than a single event.

For example, if my partner is with someone else, I'm taking 1) the time she's not with me, 2) the joy she's experiencing, 3) worry about her liking them better, 4) experiences I'm having while she's gone, 5) worry about them coming home safe, 6) joy/pain/indifference for them. (In T's case, I'm happy for her primary, happy for J, it varies with G, I'm unhappy with R [he's a liar].)

And that's just off the top of my head.

Sure, if you could distill it down, maybe you're right. But these aren't simple interactions.

 

[Manifestiny]

I want to explain that compersion is not something you can " achieve" or "accomplish". It's something you feel, not something you think.

Thank you, BG. This is insightful. I only use this terminology because it is something that Amber says. Maybe not exactly in those terms, but when I encourage her to try and discuss anything that is evidently difficult, the reply is often: "I can't right now, but I'm working on it."

 

[Manifestiny]

That is where the language gets in the way... there is a difference between jealous and envy. I can be envious of someone else's good fortune without wanting to take it from them. Jealousy seems to be that not only are you unhappy that they have something you don't, but you don't want them to have it.

...

You can have compersion and still be envious. Jealousy seems to be able to push out any compersion you might feel.

Thank you, Vixtoria. I think those are sound definitions. I think it is critical to be able to establish the dynamics of these core concepts together as lovers. In my current position, I can't seem to do that with Amber, although Beck is open to discussing anything, so these insights will be useful in helping her.

 

[Manifestiny]

I am sure you are weary, worn out, and likely tired of dealing with all the ins and the outs.

Yes, I am worn out completely.

Amber needs help and support, but you cannot force her to get it. Is she on medicines to help with her depression?

She has always resisted meds, but told me 2 days ago that it was time that she tried. I am not sure if she has literally started with them.

That means confidence and self-esteem could be lacking. Does she work outside of the home? Does she have hobbies to keep her busy, or are your children her entire world?

She never used to. All she has ever wanted was to be a mother. Once I saw the separation anxiety developing I began to encourage her all the time to seek hobbies. She started many, but never followed through. Eventually she found work, which came about more of a necessity, rather than her actively wanting to get a job (which is a whole other story in itself). Since starting work 18 months ago, she has really come to life, and it is evidently helping her. However, self esteem is still an issue.

During this eight month period, were you consistently talking and communicating about what adding a new person to your lives would mean for each of you? What was the consent for, if it was not for developing a relationship? Is there any way you can ask her what she was consenting to? Was she banking on you not falling in love and just having sex with someone else?

We have been discussing our thoughts on polyamory since before we were actually together (9 years ago). Any time I would bring up the reality that I was developing real feelings for Beck, Amber would generally say things like, "That's awesome. We'll work it out along the way, as long as we communicate properly."

I believe I have always been clear that my intention is to develop a tribe and integrate others into our life.

Admittedly, we didn't have discussions about setting any other physical boundaries, other than when Amber stated she didn't want Beck to have sex unless she was present. This boundary sounded alarm bells for me, because Beck is not exactly super comfortable with her sexuality (due to past abuse). Although she is not completely closed to the concept of a triad, at this stage, she is not ready to step into that.

I have discussed with Amber the reality that this has made her feel shut out of the triad. However, Beck made huge efforts to support Amber emotionally (and I believe, with openness to possibilities). I am now beginning to see that Amber just expected Beck to jump into bed with her too, without considering the comfort levels.

Has she ever said what she is jealous of? What is it that you need from Amber? How are you approaching her with these needs? Are you keeping your other relationship out of it when you mention what you need from her? Focus on you and her.

Not exactly. It seems to change. At one time, it will be, because when I told her about my first kiss with Beck, I delivered it with much elation. Another time, it will be because I began seeing Beck alone (which was a product of circumstances, and not a deliberate attempt to have an affair).
I try to approach every need as I understand it, while still keeping centred in myself. I certainly make a conscious effort to try and keep discussion focused on the issue at hand and leave Beck out of it.

Last night, I sent a message to express to Amber about the things I am expressing to you guys. Essentially, it comes down to me communicating that her behaviour toward me is cold and I am not feeling very loved. Her response was that she is "dealing with things the best she can," that her life is now "not as she thought it once was," and that my feelings are not her priority at this time.

I then asked what this means for our marriage, and suggested that perhaps we are learning that the love is really there, but that maybe the fact that we are married is getting in the way, because it creates these ideals and expectations (that I have been stating for some time I am happy to rework by renewing our vows). She told me to "stop it" and that she "didn't want to have that conversation."

I cannot put a time limit on it for you. If her doctors are not helping, then perhaps she needs a new one who is equipped to deal with the issues and to help her. Have you attended any of the counselling appointments with her to hear what she says? Has the therapist asked that you join her?

She has changed doctors several times. We have done some counselling together. Her therapist has not asked me to join.

 

[Manifestiny]

To keep you informed-- Amber gave me my grandmother's ring back. It had been her engagement ring. When I asked her if this means that she wants a divorce, her reply was "Well, what do you want?"

These, and many other similar actions, indicate that she really doesn't know what she wants. She has much healing to do within herself. There has always been drama in our relationship. But my commitment to my marriage has always motivated me to work through anything. It seems as though she no longer wants to try. But it certainly could just be a phase.

The most important thing I have learned through all of this experience is that one's own truth is the single greatest guide. Know yourself... and your path will be illuminated before you.

 

[FullofLove1052]

I rarely say this, but maybe you just need to get the divorce and be done. Yes, it will hurt, but in time, you will get better and be stronger. Clearly you are not happy with Amber, and tired of dealing with the dramatics and whatnot. The first venture in full-blown polyamory was not a smooth journey.

Let it be a lesson. Take some time to heal and focus on being friendly with her and being a good parent to your children. Sometimes you have to know when to let go.

Amber has to figure out what she wants. You both sound miserable, so I am not sure why either of you would want to stay. There is a compatibility issue. She desires monogamy, and you are poly.

Either way, good luck. I wish you well.
Sending hugs your way,
Ry

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm sorry you are going through this.

She's given you back the ring. It's basically time for you to get off the fence. How long do you keep on trying it before acknowledging "This is not working"?

She's already asked you what you want. You don't state what your answer was.

These, and many other similar actions, indicate that she really doesn't know what she wants.

I'm going to disagree. Her actions show she does not want to be in this polyship. Why? Maybe you and she don't have all the skills to polyship well yet, or did not talk enough in preparation for the realities and bumps in the road, or have realistic expectations. I'm not sure. But whichever way, it is the same result right now-- miserable. Why keep dragging it out?

Beck is being generous, but wondering about the "games" happening here. That's not kind to her. Amber is depressed and detaching. Keeping her in depressing situation is not aiding her wellness. The players are not compatible.

You are the hinge. Make the call, dude. Take some initiative. Being together in a poly relationship is just not going to fly. So, what's it going to be instead?

You could choose to end the poly relationship and:

• Be with Amber. Set Beck free. Work on the marriage stuff that is weak and heal.
• Be with Beck. Set Amber free.
• Be with neither of them. Set both free. Be alone and grieve your losses.
• Choose nothing. Let one of the other two end it from frustration, resentment, upset as time increases the tensions. (I do not suggest this.)

Make the call. It's not a fun call to make. But it's not healthy for anyone like this.

Galagirl

 

[Manifestiny]

I rarely say this, but maybe you just need to get the divorce and be done. Yes, it will hurt, but in time, you will get better and be stronger. Clearly you are not happy with Amberm and tired of dealing with the dramatics and whatnot. The first venture in full blown polyamory was not a smooth journey. Let it be a lesson. Take some time to heal and focus on being friendly with her and being a good parent to your children. Sometimes you have to know when to let go. Amber has to figure out what she wants. You both sound miserable, so I am not sure why either of you would want to stay. There is a compatibility issue. She desires monogamy, and you are poly. Either way, good luck. I wish you well. Sending hugs your way.

Thank you, Ry. I appreciate your reflection so much. I wish I had that sort of truth around me more!

Yes, lessons-- what would life be without them? I know we can be better parents and better people apart. I am coming to terms with that. I will be ok, and in the long run will be healthier and happier! I only want the same for Amber, Beck, and all the beings in the world.

 

[Manifestiny]

Make the call. Not a FUN all to make, but this is not healthy for anyone like this.

Thank you so much. I get it. There is a choice to be made here. It is incredibly difficult to be in a state of doubt about my intuition in general, and make a decision.

To answer your question, what I want is to have some peace. I see how we could work things out through compromise and boundary setting, but Amber refuses to participate in conversation that nurtures this. I am hearing that she doesn't want polyamory. I am willing to respect that. I surrender to the fact that, being poly, I mustn't know what it's like for someone who is mono. I am willing to try to understand in order to honour the commitment to my marriage. It doesn't appear that Amber is willing to try and understand me, at least at this time.

So, I don't really feel that I have a choice at this time. Perhaps the 4th option that you provided has already happened. However, I don't see that as a product of personal flaw, but as a failure of the institute of marriage, because time spent trying to work things out is at the core of my commitment, at least what I thought was at the core of my commitment to my marriage.

This is my central pondering point at the moment, completely reflecting on the cultural meme of marriage, and realising how deeply seated it is in our psyche. When I asked Amber yesterday why she thought we got married, her quick response was "Because I have been bred to want a perfect husband that truly loves just me," followed by, "Women have been bred that way for thousands of years."

I get that. I have degrees in anthropology and sociology.

I also get that men normally yell and scream and punch to get what they want; they just take it forcefully. They have been doing that for thousands of years.

However, I don't believe this inheritance is worthy of our future. We can repattern our world. We can make it anything we want. We don't have to be slaves of our past. These are my core beliefs, and perhaps Amber doesn't share them. I see this as an interesting thing to talk about for the rest of our life together. She sees it as horrible conflict.

Maybe the choice has been made by something greater than all of us.

 

[FullofLove1052]

Thank you, Ry. I appreciate your reflection very much. I wish I had that sort of truth around me more. I know we can be better parents... better people, apart. I am coming to terms with that. I will be ok, and in the long run will be healthier and happier! I only want the same for Amber and Beck, and all the beings in the world.

And sometimes that is what it takes. I know divorce is incredibly painful, but by continuing to stay in an unhealthy situation, you are hurting yourself, Amber, Beck, and even your children. Children are very perceptive, and they can sense things even when you try your best to hide it.

I would suggest trying to keep things amicable and work with Amber as best as possible. Nasty divorces and long-drawn-out painful situations do not benefit anybody. If anything, they help resentment to build and multiply.

Custody battles hurt children more than they help them, and while they might not understand completely right now, it will have an impact on them later on in life. You want them to look back and think, "My parents loved me enough to put their issues to the side and work with each other to help me have a happy life." My friend said it best about her and her ex-husband. "We were a horrible couple when we were married, but we are damn good parents to our children." They are. Their daughters are well-adjusted, bright young ladies who are destined to go on and do great things. I attribute that to their parenting and being able to put their wants to side in favour of their needs and best interests.

Is amber seeking support either from a forum or a poly-friendly therapist? Resistance is not all that abnormal, especially if she has not gone through the stages of grief pertaining to your marriage.

I went on a quest to understand how the mono person feels in these relationships, and when I tell you it shattered my heart to listen to them, I was fighting tears. I'd had no idea how much pain they felt. It hit me hard. I have a better understanding and a new level of respect when they say, "I am hurting and feeling pain unlike anything else." I cannot imagine crying myself to sleep at night or feeling like I am not enough. I cannot imagine wondering if someone is going to leave me for someone they think is better. Those are some of the fears they have, and it was one major reality check.

Just as you do not understand her beliefs, she does not understand yours and why you feel the need to love more than one person. There is nothing wrong with either of you. You are who you are, and that is perfectly okay.

Sending hugs your way!

-Ry

 

[GalaGirl]

her quick response was "because I have been bred to want a perfect husband that truly loves just me."

Oy. If "exclusive" is the core of what she wanted from marriage, why did she agree to open to begin with?

I am willing to try to understand...in order to honour the commitment to my marriage. It doesn't appear that Amber is willing to try and understand me at this time.

You could accept that and honor your commitment, and deal with the other part in the fullness of time, when Amber is not all het up and not able to take things on board. One thing at a time here.

I know it is hard to feel, but the the choices seem pretty clear-cut here to me.

If that's the current goal you have, you could cut ties with Beck. Tell her you don't want to string her along, since she's already leery of "games." But right now, with problems in your marriage, you can't be a solid BF to her. It's not kind to her to keep her hanging. Perhaps the most loving thing to do is to set her free.

Until you do lose Beck, Amber is not going talk to you about working anything out. If the bottom line is that she doesn't want to practice polyamory, there's nothing for her to work on when there's a GF in the picture.

Choose your goal, then align your behaviors, thoughts and feelings toward that outcome. You still might not arrive at the conclusion you hope for, but at least you are shooting for the target rather than going about aimlessly. Try to increase the odds of success and getting the outcome you seek.

Hang in there,
Galagirl

 

[Manifestiny]

If "exclusive" is the core of what she wanted from marriage, why did she agree to open to begin with?

This is the hardest thing that I am working through, because it activates my resentment toward her.

Until you do lose Beck, Amber's not gonna talk to you about working anything out. If the bottom line is that she doesn't want to practice poly, there's nothing here for her yo work on when there's a GF in the picture.

I stopped seeing Beck recently at Amber's request. After some counselling, she decided that it was selfish of her to ask that of me. She told me that it hurt, but that she loves me anyway, and I could do as I needed.

The first instance of Amber and Beck communicating, Amber shut down again and stopped speaking to either of us. For months and months, she was telling me that Beck was lovely and caring, and now suddenly all she says is that she is manipulative, but won't explain why. If she genuinely wanted to be with me, would it be too assumptive to think that she would want to help me understand that I was being taken for a ride by Beck? There are so many possibilities, but I can only go with what I am given to work with.

I'm not sure if there's much to hang onto anymore.

 

[FullofLove1052]

This is the hardest thing... I stopped seeing Beck recently at Amber's request. After some counselling, she decided that it was selfish of her to ask that of me. She told me that it hurt but that she loves me anyway, and I could do as I needed. The first instance of Amber and Beck communicating, Amber shut down again and stopped speaking to either of us. For months and months, she was telling me that Beck was lovely and caring, and now suddenly all she says is that she is manipulative, but won't explain why. If she genuinely wanted to be with me, would it be too assumptive to think that she would want to help me understand that i was being taken for a ride by Beck? There are so many possibilities, but I can only go with what I'm given to work with.

I'm not sure if there's much to hang onto anymore.

Amber only did that because she thought that was what you wanted, imo. She knows that Beck makes you happy, and that is a threat to her, because Beck is doing something that she cannot.

How did you act when your relationship with Beck ended? Were you sulking, sad, or just like going through the motions of life while dealing with your heartbreak? How did Amber act then? Was she the same as she is now?

Is it possible that Amber is seeing something in Beck that you cannot see because you are caught up in NRE? Sometimes you cannot explain why you feel the way you do. I know I cannot from time to time. Like I just figured out why being poly makes me feel selfish. It took the longest time for me to get to that point of discovery.

Is it possible that Beck said something that Amber may have taken the wrong way or taken out of context?
I find it interesting that Amber went from saying Beck was caring, and all that, to "She is manipulative." What happened?
Did you leave Amber to go tend to Beck because she was having an emotional meltdown?
Have Amber and Beck talked alone recently?
If so, what came of the conversation?
Where did this "playing games" thing come into it? I wonder what Beck meant by that.

 

[GalaGirl]

I stopped seeing Beck recently at Ambers request. After some counselling, she decided that it was selfish of her to ask that of me. She told me that it hurt, but that she loves me anyway, and I could do as I needed.

To meet what need? The need for her to think of herself as being "the nice one," not "the bad guy" here?" Or is it the "Short term solution so I don't have to deal with it til later?" habit? Then "later" comes, and it is even bigger?

The first instance that Amber and Beck communicated, Amber shut down again and stopped speaking to either of us.

Was it hard to demonize someone she got to know?

For months and months, Amber was telling me that Beck was lovely and caring. Now suddenly all she says is that she is manipulative, but won't explain why.

Is it because if she doesn't want to be the bad guy, and doesn't want you to be the bad guy, the default has to be Beck?

Maybe don't bother asking WHY anything at this juncture. You might accept that there are things to cover later, and go with "first aid" now. Maybe at this time focus more on WHAT and HOW to get to the goal, if the goal is marriage repair. WHAT needs to be done to repair? HOW do we set about achieving those things?

If she genuinely wanted to be with me, would it be too assumptive to think that she would want to help me understand that I was being taken for a ride by Beck?

That assumes a healthy, fit person at the other end. Amber sounds broken to me. Do you expect a broken person to tend to you in a logical way? You are broken and upset too, but of the two, seem healthier.

Maybe you weren't taken for a ride at all, so it is just chasing shadows putting energy there. Focus the energy on the goal at hand. Is it still marriage repair?

There are so many possibilities, but I can only go with what I am given to work with.

Yes, true.

I'm not sure if there's much to hang onto anymore.

Your call to make.

If you choose to be with the broken wife, be with her knowing that not much coming from her is going to make sense for a while. For some things, she's just not the one to aid you in your process, because it's triggering and keeps her in the hamster wheel, rather than moving it forward. You may need to sort out your feelings/grief over breaking up with someone else.

It seems like you are still trying to assess what the best path is. That's ok. Keep sorting. Take a time-out to get your own emotional upset to a cooler place. Maybe your willingness to be with Amber has changed. You have to look within to determine where your willingness lies. Only you can know. But don't take forever. Once you are ready to make the call from that level-headed place, make it. Align yourself to it.

Hang in there. You can get through this, one thing at a time.

Galagirl

 

[Dirtclustit]

in relationships, all theories can be tossed out the window

if there isn't full disclosure levels of honesty, if people do not know themselves, or even something as simple as not returning to your spouse or girl friend and promptly admitting mistakes after the fact as soon as you realize what actions you have taken that were wrong or not as understanding as is to be expected from people who care about one another.

I for one know that in any of my relationships, during the biggest arguments or any most emotional points of contention, I made mistakes or thought of ways that things could have been handled better on my part. Whether it is two hours later or two days later, it makes a big difference to put on your grown-up underwear and admit it to your loved ones. It usually takes some honest reflection on everything that went down though.

but when you honestly care about another person, and whatever the argument was over is not resolved, or at least a plan of action that will be taken to resolve it, the only way to resolve it is to spend time giving it honest thoughts. When you are working towards resolution, it takes all parties involved practicing honest reflection of their words and actions. It only takes one person to not do so and all effort is for not.

When all parties involved are honestly taking that self inventory, you all owe it to each other to promptly admit it when you were wrong as not doing so can and does in fact literally drive a person crazy. Psychology is light years behind other sciences and medicines and a lot of it has to do with not recognizing how much environmental situations and dynamics does play a part.

without the practice of honesty and all involved parties honestly reflecting AND returning to admit when they were out of line, it creates a abusive dynamic were one bad seed can and does blow the whole thing up.

it's good to know the difference between jealousy and envy and what it means to you, it may be more important to recognize whether or not your words and actions may be harming the relationship because if it left unspoken it's like a self destruct mechanism

On the other hand, the very people who are being envied actually can and do have a variable effect of that envious persons ability to deal with the situation. Yes it's limited and yes the only person you can control is yourself, but when all of you aren't working together you can bet your ass that can manipulate the entire situation. It can make a person who felt compersion change to envy and jealousy. It can also go from jealousy to compersion without the jealous or compersion feeling person doing anything different, but based solely on the actions of the other lovers.

It can be pulled either way and done in such sly, subtle, or passive ways that nobody can pick up on it and certainly cannot prove or convince themselves or anybody for that matter.

For all these reasons and more, it really does matter who the people are that you are interacting with. Anybody who is not on the same page with you in regards to what honesty is, and it's practice (by reflection) and what and where to draw the line between what is passive aggressive destruction of a relationship and what constitutes subtle ways to build up a relationship, you are only making yourselves miserable. The best advice in the world may in fact only serve to make you more miserable unless all three of you sincerely want it, and want it to happen amongst the three of you.



treat each other with respect or else all advice attempted to be followed could doom you,

 

[Manifestiny]

How did you act when your relationship with Beck ended? Were you sulking, sad, or just like going through the motions of life while dealing with your heartbreak? How did Amber act then? Was she the same as she is now?

It hurt. I reacted poorly at first, being sulky and angry. After a day or two, I was able to balance myself and not project the hurt. We also did some counselling together. Very soon, I was having clear conversations with Amber. She wasn't the same as she is now. She had a sense of delight about her, like she had won a game.

Is it possible that Amber is seeing something in Beck that you cannot see because you are caught up in NRE?

It could certainly be possible. I asked Amber to tell me, but she just wouldn't. I guess that is one of the main reasons I am on this forum. I don't want to be clouded. I want to see things for what they are. So far, no one in my life but Amber has said that Beck is manipulative. If I am missing something, I want to know what it is.

Is it possible that she said something that Amber may have taken the wrong way, or taken out of context? I find it interesting that Amber went from saying Beck was caring, and all that, to "She is manipulative." What happened? Did you leave Amber to go tend to Beck because she was having an emotional meltdown? Have Amber and Beck talked alone recently? If so, what came of the conversation?

I really wish I knew. Anything could be possible. The real issue going on is that Amber refuses to tell me. When I go to great lengths to make her feel comfortable enough to have a discussion, she begins with a few words, and then just makes comments like, "Oh, it's not worth explaining anyway," or, "It doesn't matter, because you like her anyway." I understand this is a product of feeling like she is not good enough, like she has to compete. She actually tells me this. But she is good enough. I don't want her to compete. There is no competition.

 

[Manifestiny]

You may need to sort out your feelings/grief over breaking up with someone else.

I am seeking that support as best I can. It is why I am here on this forum.

But don't take forever. And once you are ready to make the call from that level-headed place, make it. Align yourself to it. Take it one step at a time.

Thank you. I appreciate what you are saying. However, I find this to be paradoxical. Taking things one step at a time might take forever.

 

[SNeacail]

"Oh, it's not worth explaining anyway," or, "It doesn't matter, because you like her anyway."

Passive-aggressive comments like this piss me off! Dealing with passive-aggressive personalities takes rearranging your brain to get a straight answer and figure out where the real problem lies.

My husband is extremely passive aggressive, and it was a real eye opener once I started reading up on how to deal with this type of personality. I recognize the signs, am now able to call him on his bullshit, and adjust my reactions accordingly. I wish I had been clued into some of this stuff 20 years ago! It would have saved a great deal of grief.

Here's a good article on jealousy http://www.xeromag.com/fvpolyrefrigerator.html