Crush on daughter's FWB

[onewayward]

My issue with this situation has NOTHING to do with age but the fact fact that you would consider hurting your daughter.

It is NOT INCEST. Will I be hurting my daughter? Please read what I wrote a while earlier:

opalescent: Both my stepson and daughter are aware of our lifestyle (they kind of figured when they were younger, in the autumn of 2011 (historic, for us!) three of us (me, son and daughter) discussed it, albeit without ‘categorizing’ the lifestyle, nor mentioning any names of the people who were part of our lifestyle and some of who, I think, my kids suspected as much.

I had wanted hubby to also join in in that ‘historic’ conclave, but he had felt too awkward, and, till date, the matter has never been discussed in his presence (nor otherwise, really, to any great extent).

I am closer to my daughter. We joke with each other. It’s not rare that, in a social situation, if she detects something ‘amiss,’ she’ll be upfront and say something like ‘Ma, you are up to it again.’ And we’ll laugh together.

But yes, I can’t tell her I’m attracted to your casual FWB.

Hubby is more than ok. That’s how/why I didn’t cast my veto right away. His logic is, F (our daughter) has moved on twice already. So it’s only a matter of time.

If they stop seeing each other, then I revisit? Yes, you have given me an option. But all of you have advised a clear hands-off. Perhaps, if F clears my revisit down the line?

 

[Natja]

Natja, I truly appreciate reply. And I'm sorry if I shocked your sensibilities, as I did some other's. Was just sharing with no holds barred. I thought I could do that here without being judged before being fully understood.

I understood you fine, unless there was a lot you left out. You ended with--

But I don’t want to let go either.

Help!

What shocked my sensibility was that you even had to ask.

 

[IndieSolo]

I am closer to my daughter. We joke with each other. It’s not rare that, in a social situation, if she detects something ‘amiss,’ she’ll be upfront and say something like ‘Ma, you are up to it again.’ And we’ll laugh together.

But yes, I can’t tell her I’m attracted to your casual FWB.

Hubby is more than ok. That’s how/why I didn’t cast my veto right away. His logic is, F (our daughter) has moved on twice already. So it’s only a matter of time.

If they stop seeing each other, then I revisit? Yes, you have given me an option. But all of you have advised a clear hands-off. Perhaps, if F clears my revisit down the line?

I really don't understand what you mean by the above. Are you saying that just because your daughter knows you were swinging and feels comfortable talking about sex with you that it should be okay to fuck her lover, once she moves on from their relationship?

nycindie: I tried to explain in my first post, but perhaps did not explain enough. I’ve been a swinging wife with a near-cuck hubby. In the last few years of proper swinging, my preference was younger guys. When the ‘poly’ thing happened, that preference remained. And I’ve been in love only once outside my marriage. This boy would be the second. Both younger. So, there’s no novelty element that’s driving me. Sex, yes. But over the last 10 years, since my first love after marriage, I’ve never had this urge to overstep. The boy’s compulsions? Ok, you may be very right.

You are still being a bit unclear about what point you are trying to make. For the record, my lover is 17 years younger than I. I have nothing against there being an age difference. And surely there is nothing wrong with two people feeling an attraction for each other even in the most inappropriate circumstances - that happens, but the inappropriate circumstance will dictate where responsible decision-making and willpower should come in. We can't always get what we want! Nor should we! The age difference is no big deal, really. It's the fact that he is or was your daughter's lover (think about it: his penis - in your daughter, then in you; in your daughter, then in you; repeat) that makes us all freak out and say "DON'T!!!"

 

[onewayward]

Penis in me, daughter & on, on & on

I really don't understand what you mean by the above. Are you saying that just because your daughter knows you were swinging and feels comfortable talking about sex with you that it should be okay to fuck her lover, once she moves on from their relationship?



You are still being a bit unclear about what point you are trying to make. For the record, my lover is 17 years younger than I. I have nothing against there being an age difference. And surely there is nothing wrong with two people feeling an attraction for each other even in the most inappropriate circumstances - that happens, but the inappropriate circumstance will dictate where responsible decision-making and willpower should come in. We can't always get what we want! Nor should we! The age difference is no big deal, really. It's the fact that he is or was your daughter's lover (think about it: his penis - in your daughter, then in you; in your daughter, then in you; repeat) that makes us all freak out and say "DON'T!!!"

I wonder where I ever mentioned this?

 

[onewayward]

I asked because I was confused. How can I help it if he turns me on? Rest assured, I shan't be bedding him. I bared my heart. That's it.

 

[BoringGuy]

And he’s been calling me often with some excuse or other. I must confess, I’ve called him a few times, as well.

I just can’t figure how to handle this. I don’t want to let go, either.

Help!

Okay then. How to "handle" this? Stop calling him. And when he calls you, don't answer. Don't have caller ID? Have to answer the phone because it might be important? Oh, it's him? Be busy. You were just leaving. You are too tired. You have to take a shit. Or, you can just tell him that you're hot for him, and/but it's probably not a good idea for the two of you to keep calling each other.

Or do whatever you want. It's kind of annoying when people ask advice, get it, and then say how that isn't what they meant, then add, subtract, and "explain" things, hoping the free advice changes into what they want to hear.

Your original post didn't sound like you were just trying to "bare your heart." It sounded like you wanted people to tell you what they think you should do. That's what people did. You're "being judged" because you asked to be judged.

 

[Magdlyn]

The age difference is no big deal, really. It's the fact that he is or was your daughter's lover. Think about it: his penis in your daughter, then in you; in your daughter, then in you; repeat. This makes us all freak out and say "DON'T!!!"

NYCindie, I am not freaking out. I don't like having words put in my mouth, or emotions chosen for me.

If it's not the age difference, what is it? How often have we heard of a certain guy dating a girl for a while, but there are no real sparks, so they break up, but somewhere along the way, this guy's brother falls hard for the girl and vice versa, and they end up together (with or without the first brother's blessing)?

So, why not mother/daughter? If it isn't the age difference involved, what is it?

This is an interesting ethical question... and we are all trying to practice ethical non-monogamy. If the daughter knows her mom is poly, and knows mom prefers younger men, and she has never been head over heels for the guy in question, what is the problem? I am truly curious.

Heck, I had a bf once (I loved him but wasn't in love) and after I went off to college, he dated my sister, and then one of my best friends for a while. Heh. We all loved him.

 

[BoringGuy]

This is an interesting ethical question... and we are all trying to practice ethical non-monogamy. If the daughter knows her mom is poly, and knows mom prefers younger men, and she has never been head over heels for the guy in question, what is the problem? I am truly curious.

Didn't someone already say that it would be better if she waited until the guy and daughter had been "broken up" (or whatever you call it when you stop having sex with a FWB) for a year or two, and then, if they're still both interested, to pursue it?

I don't think the age difference is the issue (I know you weren't talking to me but I can still answer for myself as if you were), so much as the RELATIONSHIP. Yes, the OP knows her daughter. We don't. There is nothing we can do to stop her if she decides she knows better and approaches her daughter asking, "What do you think about this?" That said, in the first post of this thread, the OP did come across as though her lady-boner came before the concern for the mother-daughter relationship.

Yes yes yes, I know I don't have kids, no need to remind me. BELIEVE me, I relish it every day. But I did have parents, so I can discuss this from that perspective.

I will say that just because the idea of it turns me off on a visceral level, that is my issue, and in no way do I believe that my personal sensibilities should dictate what other consenting adults do, as long as it does not affect my health or physical resources.

 

[MeeraReed]

A few thoughts:

1) I don't think it's fair to use the casual nature of the boy's relationship with your daughter as an excuse. I enjoy casual relationships/sexual friendships (arrangements that are fun without "going anywhere"), but I would like other people to understand that I value these connections, and that I do have some emotions involved. Such a guy might not be my boyfriend, but he IS my friend.

2) It seems a bit silly to dismiss your daughter's involvement with this boy as purely casual (see above) while claiming you have serious love for him!

3) I wish someone would tell your daughter that her lover has the hots for her mom, so that at the very least, she can stop seeing him in your house.

4) There's an ick factor involved here, and I'm trying to dissect why this seems so much ickier than someone wanting to date their sibling's ex. It's not just the age difference, because we all think way younger/way older folks can be hot. What springs to mind from my undergrad anthropology classes is that cross-culturally (worldwide and throughout history) virtually all human cultures have strong taboos against sex with one's parent-like figures, which includes not just biological mothers/fathers, but mothers-in-law/fathers-in-law and stepparents. This applies even when the "children" are consenting adults. Whereas in some cultures it would be normal for a man to marry two sisters (this is called sororal polygyny), he could never marry a mother and daughter!

5) On the other hand, in Ancient Greece, uncles frequently married their much-younger nieces, so whatever.

6) If it's not gross to get involved with your daughter's guy, what if your stepson were attracted to you? Would it be okay to have sex with him?

 

[MeeraReed]

It is NOT INCEST.

Incest is defined differently by different cultures.

For example, cousins. Many (non-European) cultures have a belief that your best marriage mate would be one of your "cross cousins," your father's sisters' children or your mother's brothers' children. Yet these same cultures have a strong incest taboo against relations with your "parallel cousins," your father's brothers' children or your mother's sisters' children.

Western European cultures do not distinguish between these two types of cousins: they are both your first cousins. Any first cousins, at one time, were ideal marriage mates; but now it's icky, taboo, incestuous, or illegal to marry your first cousin.

 

[BoringGuy]

I look at it like this: I would not put my mouth where my father's penis or my mother's vagina had been, especially not recently. If I had a kid, then vice-versa, as well. Even if they used a condom. Even if they took a bath or shower. That's just me; not trying to speak for anyone else.

 

[IndieSolo]

The age difference is no big deal, really. It's the fact that he is or was your daughter's lover (think about it: his penis - in your daughter, then in you; in your daughter, then in you; repeat) that makes us all freak out and say "DON'T!!!"

NYCindie, I am not freaking out. I don't like having words put in my mouth, or emotions chosen for me.

If it's not the age difference, what is it? How often have we heard of a certain guy dating a girl for a while, but there are no real sparks, so they break up, but somewhere along the way, this guy's brother falls hard for the girl and vice versa, and they end up together (with or without the first brother's blessing)?

So, why not mother/daughter? If it isn't the age difference involved, what is it?

Sorry, Mags! I wrote that in a hurry and should have been more careful. No, not all of us are freaking out, and perhaps none of us are. I recall actually struggling a bit with how to put my thoughts into words. I almost wrote that the scenario had "a lot of us squicked" but, knowing that the OP is in the UK, I wasn't sure if squicked would be a familiar term, so I said we were "all freaking out," which was, of course, just a silly way to say something because I can't speak for "all" of us, anyway. My apologies!

As far as figuring out the "what" in "what is bothering us" about this, I think it's purely the parental relationship. I have had two instances in my life where my sister and I were dating the same guy. And yes, we were both having sex with them (but never at the same time!), so I would have to say it's the mother issue.

But it is an interesting ethical question. Why did so many people feel disgusted when Woody Allen hooked up with Soon Yi? I saw the two of them walking in the city once, holding hands, about a year after that whole thing blew over, and she had such a self-satisfied look on her face, like, "Yeah, I got what I wanted." Whether that was really about grabbing onto Woody, or sticking it to Mia Farrow, who knows? But I remember being a little surprised at how confident and self-assured Soon Yi seemed. Not meek or a pushover at all. Everyone had an opinion about that situation, and it seems that a majority of people felt that even though he was not a biological parent, and she may have been older than her birth certificate stated, he never should have gone there. But when I saw the two of them together in the streets of NYC, they seemed so happy and so right for each other, though we would likely think of them as a very odd couple! So, I didn't know what conclusion to make!

But the OP being with the bf of her own bio daughter is different than a stepparent relationship, I feel. An ick factor is built-in, to imagine a mother and daughter being with the same lover.

To the OP, also to clarify, when I wrote "penis in daughter, then you" and the "repeat," I wasn't implying that the young man would go back and forth between the two of you. I meant it only as a way of saying "think about that again and again and again and again." I know it was a crude way to put it, but that's just how I think sometimes.

 

[Dirtclustit]

It sounded to me like she felt free...

... to mention her thoughts casually, like two friends might talk in private over a casual dinner, where they say things they wouldn't say in front of anybody but "just the girls." I didn't get the impression she was thinking about the guy fucking her daughter, and then walking down the hallway to fuck her.

I am sure she isn't the first mother to tell another person a similar story. Like if your kid came home for week during spring break while in college, and brought along the person they were currently seeing, who just happened to be very attractive. Then later, at breakfast with her friends, the mom mentions how her daughter's boyfriend flirting with her really turned her on. Maybe she even mentions what she would have done if he weren't her daughter's boyfriend.

Except this guy isn't her daughter's boyfriend, he is just her FWB. It sounds like the OP hasn't done anything.

And no offense, but there, even with your disclaimers of what would make it OK, a few of you still have a tone that I might take as being attacked. I am sure you feel differently about it, but I didn't read anything in her post that led me to believe she would stab her daughter in the back, or act in any of the ways mentioned in comments that were described like a reprehensible act.

If anything, it sounded like she felt safe enough to casually throw out her first thoughts, or knee jerk reactions to being hit on by a guy she would be very into if her daughter were somehow not involved.

I think it's good that people feel comfortable enough to post those thoughts that might not have traveled full circle through to well thought-out and rational. Those first thoughts may not always be the same once they do go full circle, but if you pound them into the ground because they are just first thoughts, it may prevent people from throwing those thoughts out there, which may seriously hinder other sites that might use posts here as content.

That is, if this is even one of the sites that gets crawled/trolled for content, but if it is, maybe we could cut them a little slack, after all, some sites haven't had anything really worth saying for months now, and having to read through a hundred pages to come to that conclusion isn't good.

But all that aside, it would be nice if the OP felt comfortable enough to let us know the rest of the story later. Who knows? Maybe her daughter had more feelings for her least favorite pair of shoes she only wears because they were a gift from a friend. Maybe she has been looking for someone to pawn the shoes off on, maybe even beg the OP to please take the pair of shoes so she can be done with them.

Of course, what I have to say about it doesn't mean shit either, but here it is, posted, grammatical errors and all.

 

[Natja]

- I almost wrote that the scenario had "a lot of us squicked" but, knowing that the OP is in the UK, I wasn't sure if squicked would be a familiar term,

It is.

As far as figuring out the "what" in "what is bothering us" about this, I think it's purely the parental relationship.

There is a huge difference in my eyes. Personally, I still wouldn't want to date an ex of my sister's, but that is by the by. But my mother's ex? No. One wonders what sort of fetishisation goes in the mind of the person who pursues a parent of an ex, anyway? It is a bit gross, if you ask me. You wonder if they would be comparing you to your kid...

The majority of people felt that even though he was not a biological parent, and she may have been older than her birth certificate stated, he never should have gone there.

I think Allen helped raise Soon Yi (or maybe even actively raised her) since childhood also, as Allen got with Mia Farrow when Soon Yi was about 10. And he was sleeping with her at least nine years later. At least that was when their affair was discovered by Farrow.

Of course he is happy. He is decrepit and has a wife half his age, who is almost guaranteed to have been a virgin when they got together, because he is her stepfather! I still think he is disgusting, whether he is biologically related or not. And FYI, I am not automatically against incest anyway, depends on the context.

To me, there is an abuse of power at play in many of these situations. Also, in the OP's situation, I think there is a slightly competitive issue at work here, a flattery that she can get the same age bloke as her 19-year old daughter can, which I think is character issue that should be worked through, rather than talking about how hard it is to get over her crush. Call me a hard case (I do) but I think a short sharp shock is appropriate.

 

[Dirtclustit]

Listening to a little too much Pink Floyd?

Because unless that is desired and explicitly consented to by fully knowledgeable adults, by their freewill to decide, that could be construed as abuse. Dig it?

 

[Magdlyn]

Because unless that is desired and explicitly consented to by fully knowledgeable adults, by their freewill to decide, that could be construed as abuse. Dig it?

What? No, I do not dig what you are saying here.

I think it's different when marriage or a long-term relationship (such as the Allen/Farrow one) is involved. Woody hooked up with his own step-daughter. He'd known her as his gf's little girl and ended up fucking her.

In this case, the young man in question is a FWB of her daughter. He is not her son-in-law. I guess if I were the mom here, I'd bring up to him, "There seems to be a definite attraction between us here. But you're my daughter's FWB." And ask him about his ethics around it. Perhaps he is feeling a certain fetishistic pleasure, to be romantically/sexually involved with a young woman and her mother. But maybe not. If his feelings are stronger for the mom than the daughter, maybe it would be ethical to stop having sex with the daughter altogether. And then, see what happens with the relationship with onewayward.

(BTW, the 21-year old I've been chatting with? I wrote to him saying we could have one "romantic" date, if that is a fantasy of his. Since he's been talking about art with me, I suggested, how about meeting at this certain museum that also has lovely outdoor sculpture gardens, walk and talk in the May sunshine, and then a drink afterward? He wrote back to say his life is too busy and disorganized to have a full day to go to a museum with me! Then he implied all he wanted to do was talk and have sex... Oy.

I wrote back just now, telling him I don't fuck on the first date, and what the heck is he doing that he is too busy to spend half a day with me? I know he only works Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.

I guess maybe he thought he could just come to my place, talk for an hour and then get to the shagging? That's "romantic?" lol)

 

[opalescent]

It's not the age difference that drives my 'Don't go there' advice (dating someone 15 years younger). It's the current involvement with your daughter, even if casual. And it's not the visceral dick in her, then you, then back again mental picture. (Thanks, NYCindie! I do know that's not what you meant exactly. But that's what I saw in my head.)

It's the potential damage to your daughter that drives my thoughts on this. It sounds like you have an open and honest relationship with her, and that's awesome. The reason is that, as her mom, you are not exactly on a level playing field with your daughter. What if you bring this situation to her and because she loves you, knows the situation with you and her dad, she feels unable to say 'no'? Are you helping her financially or with health insurance? That is another reason she may feel pushed to agree. Our parents reach deep into our psyches and that hold doesn't ever fully go away. If healthy, that tie should not go away fully. But our parents can hurt us in ways no other people can. At 19 - newbie adult closer to childhood than adulthood - she is especially vulnerable. She is learning how to be an adult now. It's time for you to step up and continue to show her how to be a healthy adult by leaving the hottie FWB alone.

And by maybe revisiting this later on, I don't mean waiting for their connection to end or wait for your daughter to be older and then leap in. There will still be the same concerns. You could still hurt her as badly at 30 about this as at 19. As she ages, and the relationship fades into time, it is possible that she would be ok with you pursuing her ex. But that is a huge maybe. Don't put into your psyche that you will just bide your time and wait. Move on completely, instead of holding onto a fantasy 'What if?'

Otherwise I totally support your cougar ways. Go you!

 

[hyperskeptic]

This discussion intrigues me no end, as it shows a limit of tolerance for or acceptance of consensual relationships.

Suppose we could take the questions of honesty and consent off the table altogether, for a moment. Assume everyone involved-- mother, father, daughter, FWB, knows everything they need to know about the situation, and that all consent to an arrangement whereby the mother and daughter are both having sex with the FWB, though not at the same time.

On this supposition, there would be no betrayal or back-stabbing involved, no dishonesty, no cheating, by very straightforward poly standards.

Now, what's objectionable about the arrangement?

For many, the objection seems to be that it comes uncomfortably close to a deep and persistent taboo against parents having sex with their own children. Except this isn't about the mother having sex with the daughter, but an odd kind of sex by proxy, as if physical contact with the daughter might leave some metaphysical residue on the penis of the young man in question that would then be transferred to the mother if she were to have sex with the young man.

But would we think that way about any other relationship?

I've always thought that one of the great things about being poly is that it helps me to rid my mind of vestiges of traditional patriarchy, including the idea that sex necessarily generates a kind of metaphysical pollution on body and soul . . . which is what lies behind the idea of adultery, in which the metaphysical purity of a man's chattel-wife is sullied or polluted by contact with the penis of another man.

I seem to have shed that idea in my relationship with my wife. I don't think her boyfriend has left any of his essence behind, such that I am having sex with him by proxy when I'm having sex with her. There may be a risk of STI, of course, but 1) we're taking appropriate measures to reduce risk of exposure to those and, 2) those are a function of infection by pathogens, not by essence-of-boyfriend.

I'd have to ask her, but I'm supposing my wife would say much the same thing about the relationship I had last year: she does not think of herself as having had sex-by-proxy with another woman.

Even so, many contributors to this thread have written one or another variant of the following: "Ew! Ew! Ew! His penis was in your daughter and you want it in you! Ew! Ew! Ew!"

I get that. I'm a bit squicked out by the idea myself. But I have to ask: Why, exactly?

I can only conclude that as the situation described more closely approximates incest-- though everyone seems to acknowledge that it isn't incest, not really-- ancient notions of sex-as-transfer-of-essence, sex-as-metaphysical-pollution seem to resurface.

Maybe that's appropriate. Maybe the taboo is well-enough established that we want to keep a wide security perimeter around it, so we don't even get close to it.

That said, it seems we should at least recognize the oddness of this reaction, which seems to be against the run of play in poly discussions.

In any case, I still think honesty and consent are paramount considerations in a situation like this. The taboo is just an especially steep barrier to consent, perhaps.

 

[BoringGuy]

This discussion intrigues me no end, as it shows a limit of tolerance for or acceptance of consensual relationships.

I don't have time to read your whole post right now, so I will quickly just respond to this:

I think I've observed that when people speak of "tolerance" and "acceptance," there follows an assumption that they think it should be a crime or something to engage in whatever activity.

Let me say right now that just because I don't agree with certain things, doesn't mean that I think it should be illegal or even socially unacceptable. If a family of mother, father, brother, sister, aunt, uncle, cousins, grandparents, etc. are all "consenting adults" (whatever that means on the day), then it's fine by me if they all get naked together and penetrate each other's orifices until the cows come home. I will still have my opinion that it's not OK, but if it doesn't involve me, and everyone is happy, and my taxes are not going to pay for some genetically fucked-up kid that results from an inbred pregnancy, then please do organize as many family orgies as your schedule permits. Just make sure that you warn any innocent bystanders who might get sucked into your dynamic before they realize what's really happening up in there. (ETA: that was the general "you," not "you" as in a specific individual on this forum.)

brb

 

[opalescent]

@hyperskeptic, I sketch out above why I think this is not a good idea. It's not incest ickiness once removed.

It's about a potentially unequal situation right now. I do think parents and children can grow into being on a more level field. At that point, if the daughter believes it would not hurt her or damage her relationship with her parents if her mom saw an ex, I think it is ethical. But given the age of the daughter and that they are still in an FWB relationship, the odds are strongly stacked against this scenario playing out in a way that ends well for anyone and could cause lasting and deep damage.