Wide Awake

[FullofLove1052]

Under similar circumstances, I don't know that many people who would be much different from how Matt is reacting. He makes some good points, and forcing reactions from him over the parenting quandary aren't making him look any better to you or anyone else. Matt's PR is beside the point though, regardless of how he appears you know him differently than people in this forum making snap judgements about his quality. That being said, he obviously wants no part of your ex for himself, and to a very restricted degree in his children's lives, and your pushing the issue just creates more stress.

You guys don't appear to be splitting up, but you're determined to have her around, and he's not. Someone needs to back off their position, and frankly I don't expect that it will be him. If indeed he is as adamant as his post indicates.

Your choices seem clear to me, either way. Seems like Matt has made his stand and is sticking to it. Whether you accept it or not will define your relationship going forward.

So, will you accept it, or won't you? Because all the talk in the world won't change anything, this late in the game.

You had a part in creating this situation, and so did they. I think blame and recriminations are pointless and counter productive. As I've stated before, you've got to get past this disturbance and get back to living life. One way or another. With or without people who are present today. You know the boundaries, disagreeable though they may be. So now, it's up to you to choose what to do for yourself and family.

In spite of it all though, I think all of you are erring in forcing these issues when you're at your worst, and most prone to making irrational statements and judgements. There's nothing informed about decisions made under duress. For anyone. What can you both do to constructively resolve this while creating some peace in yourselves, whilst being willing to live with the outcome of the decisions?

My life has been going on, and the issues kept mounting until I cracked like an egg.

I made a decision, and I was urged to reconsider. "Oh no. That is not fair to Si because she has been around since this time. It seems like you are siding with Matt." "Oh no. You should not do that either because you cannot be the only one making decisions." Okay, but it is not fair to Matt to continue doing the same things that lead to this either. All that shows is he is still not being listened to, and I have not learned a single lesson. I know Matt's boundaries, and I have been violating them or standing with my toes pressed to the line.

What is fair to anyone these days? I am beginning to think nothing.

Ry

 

[SNeacail]

Sounds like the both of you are at over saturation levels when it comes to dealing with "feelings". Back off and take a break. I've have to do this sometimes and I know others here have said the same thing. Don't discuss your "feelings" or the mess of a situation except on scheduled days, counceling days plus an extra 2 hours on a non-counseling day or such (maybe limit it to twice a week) and that's it. The rest of the time, just deal with everyday life.

 

[FullofLove1052]

Sounds like the both of you are at over saturation levels when it comes to dealing with "feelings". Back off and take a break. I've have to do this sometimes and I know others here have said the same thing. Don't discuss your "feelings" or the mess of a situation except on scheduled days, counceling days plus an extra 2 hours on a non-counseling day or such (maybe limit it to twice a week) and that's it. The rest of the time, just deal with everyday life.

We have been doing a modified form of that. When I am walking in the house at whatever time of night, the last thing I want to talk about is this. It goes into the off-limit pool until a later time.

This situation only comes up if something happens, and it cannot be put off until another day. The weekend was a big deal, and it made some negative feelings come out. Waiting until Thursday during our session to address them was not an option this time.

I am away from it and not letting it consume me right now.

 

[kdt26417]

Well, you certainly have your plate full. I agree that most of the talks about Si are best left for counselling, but I can see how things were pushed to a head in this latest case.

I don't blame you for scraping up a bit of time off. There are so many people depending on you. It must get overwhelming at times.

It would be wonderful if Si could be part of the kids' lives, but it won't be the end of the world if that can't happen. Try not to let yourself get pulled apart by the impossibility of this dilemma.

With much regards,
Kevin T.

 

[FullofLove1052]

Well, you certainly have your plate full. I agree that most of the talks about Si are best left for counselling, but I can see how things were pushed to a head in this latest case.

I don't blame you for scraping up a bit of time off. There are so many people depending on you. It must get overwhelming at times.

It would be wonderful if Si could be part of the kids' lives, but it won't be the end of the world if that can't happen. Try not to let yourself get pulled apart by the impossibility of this dilemma.

With much regards,
Kevin T.

I am trying not to. I reached my breaking point two weeks ago, but I pushed myself past my limit. Never again. I could feel it coming, but I chose to ignore it.

Impossible is right. It will be okay one way or the other.

 

[Lynn]

I've been following this thread and before that, I followed Matt's. What a sad situation. I actually can empathize with each of you and that's the thing that makes it so heartbreaking. Matt is being over-the-top stubborn, but I can see how he reached this point, but looking back, it was as much his fault as anyone else's so don't carry all the blame. Mistakes were made by each of you. You just seem more willing to take responsibility for yours. At this point though, laying blame or deciding who's at fault is not productive and it's a waste of time.

It's so easy for all of us to sit at our computers and tell you what you did wrong, what you're doing wrong, or what you should or shouldn't be doing. But we don't know you. We don't know Matt and we don't know Si so any advice we might give would be based only on our perception of the situation. There is one thing that I'm having a problem with. I'm a parent. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING would EVER cause me to walk away from my child even for one day, leaving her to wonder why she hasn't seen or heard from me. Being angry with her other parent or being hurt by her other parent wouldn't prevent me from seeing my child. But that's what Si did for a time. She didn't go to the recital, she didn't call to check on them. She just went quiet. There's so much talk about her being a co-parent but to me, I don't see it. I'm not saying she doesn't love them; I'm sure she does. But that one thing bothers me. It's just MY opinion and just MY perception.

I worry about you because you seem to be on the edge. How much more of this can you take. I feel you're driving yourself crazy trying to find a way to make it all work. The reality might be that it's simply not going to work. Life can suck sometimes...so many sacrifices and compromises. We can't always have things the way we would like them. We can't always have everything we want. It's just life, full of painful, difficult decisions. Unfortunately, we can't control the actions of other. We can only control our own. It might be time you considered the possibility that you might have to make a choice. You might have to search your soul and decide which path is right for you and your children. You love Matt and you love Si and I'm so sorry this is happening. But unless things change drastically, is it realistic to hold out hope that you're going to be able to merge both paths? One way or another, this can't go on. You're going to make yourself sick. I'm sure that much, we will all agree on.

 

[FullofLove1052]

I've been following this thread and before that, I followed Matt's. What a sad situation. I actually can empathize with each of you and that's the thing that makes it so heartbreaking. Matt is being over-the-top stubborn, but I can see how he reached this point, but looking back, it was as much his fault as anyone else's so don't carry all the blame. Mistakes were made by each of you. You just seem more willing to take responsibility for yours. At this point though, laying blame or deciding who's at fault is not productive and it's a waste of time.

I agree. It is a waste of time. I know why he feels the way he does. It has been said time and time again. The beauty of me finally opening my ears and listening to him, huh? What he said last night is mild in comparison to what has been said in recent weeks. I read that like I do with e-mails. It did not warrant a response because he knows how I feel and what I think.

It's so easy for all of us to sit at our computers and tell you what you did wrong, what you're doing wrong, or what you should or shouldn't be doing. But we don't know you. We don't know Matt and we don't know Si so any advice we might give would be based only on our perception of the situation. There is one thing that I'm having a problem with. I'm a parent. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING would EVER cause me to walk away from my child even for one day, leaving her to wonder why she hasn't seen or heard from me. Being angry with her other parent or being hurt by her other parent wouldn't prevent me from seeing my child. But that's what Si did for a time. She didn't go to the recital, she didn't call to check on them. She just went quiet. There's so much talk about her being a co-parent but to me, I don't see it. I'm not saying she doesn't love them; I'm sure she does. But that one thing bothers me. It's just MY opinion and just MY perception.

This is exactly what he says. This and, "Just because she was around does not mean she should have so much say. The nanny is around and has been since before we even brought our daughter home from the hospital, but our children do not call her mum." He contends that the oldest calling Si mum was something that was more coerced as opposed to natural. I have no argument against that. Tis true. Our nanny moved in two weeks before I gave birth in December 2008. She is with them every day, and she sometimes spends time with them on her off days with them, too. They know her just as they know us, but they do not call her mother or anything else.

I worry about you because you seem to be on the edge. How much more of this can you take. I feel you're driving yourself crazy trying to find a way to make it all work. The reality might be that it's simply not going to work. Life can suck sometimes...so many sacrifices and compromises. We can't always have things the way we would like them. We can't always have everything we want. It's just life, full of painful, difficult decisions. Unfortunately, we can't control the actions of other. We can only control our own. It might be time you considered the possibility that you might have to make a choice. You might have to search your soul and decide which path is right for you and your children. You love Matt and you love Si and I'm so sorry this is happening. But unless things change drastically, is it realistic to hold out hope that you're going to be able to merge both paths? One way or another, this can't go on. You're going to make yourself sick. I'm sure that much, we will all agree on.

I am better now. I was on the edge. My daily schedule topped with these issues just burned me out. I had nothing left to give to anyone. In all my years of education and actually practising, I have never bailed on a work day. Today was the first time, so you know it was serious and dire.

The only thing I want these days is consistent peace. I have enough stress on the job. The one place I should have minimal stress is at home.

I did make a decision. My decision was to severe the ties and let the relationships start breaking down now. I was urged to reconsider, not act in haste, not make any final decisions under duress, show empathy to Si, and continue to go against Matt to do what was supposedly fair to my children. As we see, that method did not work. I am still leaning towards severing the ties. I am tired of living like this. There are two clear paths, and the path I chose is not working.

Matt is not changing the way he feels, so it is up to me to make a decision. I can live with the consequences. I have been living with this long enough. He has admitted his wrongs in the situation many times over. He has tried to be okay with certain things, but he just cannot do it. I knew Matt was stubborn when I met him. I knew when I married him. I knew when I had both children with him. I can deal with that because I knew it, and he never masked it as anything else. Even if he was not stubborn, the outcome would be no different.

 

[Scissors]

I've been following your story with great interest, mainly as a cautionary tale that keeps me on the straight and narrow through my own adventure. I have my own opinions on the whole mess, but honestly, it doesn't really matter. What I want to ask is this: do you have a "safe" place of your own? I don't mean a physical one; I mean an internet/whatever haven to vent or ramble or do as you wish. Because it might do you a disservice to progress in your relationship through expensive counselling etc., only to turn around and release your frustrations onto a messageboard that everyone (especially the parties in your life) can read and are aware of. It seems to me that by putting your thoughts here, you are implicitly allowing Matt to be even more lazy/withdrawn in communication, since he can read all your grievances (and even take enough offense to your portrayal of him to post defending himself, which I'd personally perceive as skirting the line of the rule of blogs being a "safe", criticism-free place). While you, on the other hand, are stuck being entirely reactionary and (perhaps ultimately) policing your thoughts for fear of offending your loved one.

I'm not suggesting Matt start his own blog or some such. I'm not suggesting you stop. I'm aware of the challenges of a board like this where lovers can register and sparks can fly. I'm just pointing out that as it stands now, information only appears to flow one way and this imbalance is inadvertently created/perpetuated. Even if what you write here IS stuff you've already said before ad nauseum to your therapist, it's difficult to deny the power of words made material. Made concrete.

... Unless this is the dynamic you want, of course.

 

[FullofLove1052]

I've been following your story with great interest, mainly as a cautionary tale that keeps me on the straight and narrow through my own adventure. I have my own opinions on the whole mess, but honestly, it doesn't really matter. What I want to ask is this: do you have a "safe" place of your own? I don't mean a physical one; I mean an internet/whatever haven to vent or ramble or do as you wish. Because it might do you a disservice to progress in your relationship through expensive counselling etc., only to turn around and release your frustrations onto a messageboard that everyone (especially the parties in your life) can read and are aware of. It seems to me that by putting your thoughts here, you are implicitly allowing Matt to be even more lazy/withdrawn in communication, since he can read all your grievances (and even take enough offense to your portrayal of him to post defending himself, which I'd personally perceive as skirting the line of the rule of blogs being a "safe", criticism-free place). While you, on the other hand, are stuck being entirely reactionary and (perhaps ultimately) policing your thoughts for fear of offending your loved one.

I'm not suggesting Matt start his own blog or some such. I'm not suggesting you stop. I'm aware of the challenges of a board like this where lovers can register and sparks can fly. I'm just pointing out that as it stands now, information only appears to flow one way and this imbalance is inadvertently created/perpetuated. Even if what you write here IS stuff you've already said before ad nauseum to your therapist, it's difficult to deny the power of words made material. Made concrete.

... Unless this is the dynamic you want, of course.

Everything that I say has been out loud and talked about to the point of annoyance, which is when I deem it necessary to get other opinions because I do not know it all. Sometimes when you are in the middle of a situation, you cannot see all the dynamics, and your judgement could very well be clouded. That is what was happening to me. I was not able to see all the folds and the little neatly tucked away corners, so I decided to write.

I do have outside support, but they have nothing constructive to offer. Divorce, consider what the children want, go against Matt, continue doing what you want, and so on. Some of the same things that have been suggested here. I am tired of counselling, too. I tried one-on-one therapy, and I decided that was not the avenue for me. Matt goes, and it has helped him. I was just not into it. I found it more of a nuisance than help. I just felt like my time could have been better served working on my own issues outside of a therapist's office.

I use this as one method of getting my thoughts out. I also do video diaries. I used to write. I have written thousands of pages worth of thoughts over the course of time. I like to go back and read them to see what I was thinking in that moment or even how I have grown or regressed. They are actually in my home office. I have shared some of them with Matt. I just sent him one talking about my day and how I was feeling about everything in that moment. My nightly post here will reflect the same thoughts and feelings.

I know there is an imbalance. The imbalance was and actually still is in our lives. I played my part in making that imbalance cause as many problems as it did. Last night was the third or fourth time he has commented out of 29-30 pages. If he is not willing to open up to me, I know expecting him to open up via a blog is virtually out. Partially because he thinks people will try to change him or his mind.

I would love to hear your thoughts. I welcome all thoughts and opinions.

Ry

 

[monkeystyle]

I think your most recent comment is the most informative thing about you that I've read in this entire thread. It says a lot for how you process things. Namely, that emotional immediacy is tied to momentary proximity of thinking, and not necessarily to the overall situation. Good to know, as it helps put your thoughts and postings into better context.

I've basically urged a slowing down (back off the emotional ledge) of things, but as this is how you're getting it out there it may not matter much. To be fair, on occasion you do come off as being utterly on the verge of pure mayhem. And not in a Monty Python happy mayhem sort of way.

Both of you seem to have interesting minds, good arguments and compelling perspectives. In real life, I'd suspect words like 'stable' and 'secure' could be used to describe you both. Ultimately, those qualities will re-assert themselves on your relationship, provided neither of you resort to truly harmful tactics.

 

[FullofLove1052]

Check-In

I am happy to see Wednesday. Yesterday was one of those days where it was just too much. I was not up for a 12+ hour work day with everything that was weighing on my mind.

I am glad that I took a day to myself. I had no idea how stressed out I really was. I was in denial about the stress. I am the butterfly of optimism, but yesterday, reality hit like a stack of stones.

I accept that this situation is very sad and highly unfortunate. I appreciate all of the advice. Some of it has been helpful for sure. I helped to create this mess, and there are two paths. Path A is that path that was taken and has continued to be taken. I know what happens when walking down that path. Matt's needs still get trampled over and ignored in lieu of what someone else wants. Path B involves cutting the ties now instead of prolonging the inevitable. This path involves possibly hurting my children. I know it should be about them, but as their mum, I have a say in what is best for them. Stability in their home life is essential. The marriage between us is one of the first relationships they will be exposed to on a consistent and daily basis. We need to show them an example of what a healthy relationship looks like. The number of people in this relationships is neither here nor there. Feuding parents who end up just sharing space due to conflict of interest with the third parental figure is not healthy or a conducive environment for them. No, I do not want to teach them certain things like, "If you get mad at someone, it is okay to cut them off and dismiss them as if they never mattered." That is not quite part of the lesson plans of life format that I care to follow.

Si continues to be an ongoing issue of contention in our marriage. We do not discuss her outside of counselling. The only time we do is if an issue arises that cannot wait until Thursday afternoon. It is counterproductive to keep pushing this issue and hoping that he will change. It is crystal clear that he is not going to change. We are in counselling for lack of communication and lack of listening on my part. Amongst other things, of course. If I continue to go against Matt, it is only a matter of time before it falls apart again, and this time there may be no recovering from it.

After much thinking, soul searching, and weighing the pros and cons, I think I have made a decision. I am stopping them from being around Si. I realise it is hurtful, may not be right or agreeable to all, etc., but in order for counselling to work and to restore some semblance of peace, in my heart of hearts, I believe this is the right decision. This decision was not made in haste. I remained neutral and kept my personal feelings out of it. I reviewed the facts. I took Matt's perspective and all thoughts and sensible feelings into account. I viewed it from Si's point of view, too. I put myself in their shoes and asked, "How would YOU handle this, Ry?" While in Matt's shoes, I realised I would have left a long time ago and stopped tolerating it. While in Si's shoes, I felt hurt, like I had already lost so much, and this would be another blow. I viewed it from daughter's point of view. This is someone that has been in her life and part of it since before she was born. (In the back of mind, I remembered what Matt said about the nanny being part of her life the same amount of time but not expecting her to call her mummy or act like she was her mother, and she sees her every day.) Did we force her to call Si mum? What is the difference between Si and the nanny? Why did she not associate the nanny with being like a mum?

For the first time, I feel like giving Si those kind of parental rights was a mistake. I hope this is not coming from a place of frustration and tiredness. I know people do parenting all kinds of ways. For some, shipping their children off to boarding school from the ages of 11-18 and living child-free is their way way of being a parent. For some, pawning their minor children off on friends or family so they can gallivant all around the world and chase behind a man or woman is their chosen method of parenting. For some, they prefer to have a team of nannies and be as hands off as humanly people. For some, staying at home and forgoing a career is their chosen way. None of those methods describe my style, though.

I choose to be a working mum, but I am involved in their lives every step of the way. No matter what is going on in my world, I stop and give them the love and attention they deserve. Those 15 minutes of playing peek-a-boo with my son, and that time I spend French braiding my baby's hair mean everything to them. I may be on the verge of tears or within seconds of falling apart, but I still give 150% to them. I am a mum, and I signed up to do this the minute I knew she existed. Even when I was 15k km away, I was still a mum. I do not get to stop being a mum because Matt makes me mad. I do not get to stop being a mum because my life has changed beyond recognition. I would not want to stop either. It is part of who I am until the day I die.

When Matt asks what Si has done to earn these rights, he is not being bitter or even expressing sarcasm. He genuinely wants to know because he does not understand what she brings to their lives or what she did to even be granted those rights. He asked me in counselling one day, "Where was she when we were potty training our daughter? Where was she when the first steps were taken? Where was she when our daughter was teething and hurting? Where was she after she received immunisations and was running a fever? Where was she during paediatrician appointments? Where was she when our daughter was having bad dreams and wanted someone to look under the bed for monsters? Where was she when tears needed to be wiped? Where was she when our daughter wanted someone to play with her and tickle her? Where was she when we had newborns, were up all night, and had to be at work for and operating under limited sleep?" It was like a firing squad. I could not answer a single question. He finally asked me, "Do you remember that night that we were both drained and laying there like we were lifeless?" I was like, "Yes." "Remember who was there and what was not said or even asked?" "Yes." Our counsellor asked who was there, and why does this matter? I responded, "Si." She asked Matt, "What is it about this night that bothers you?" Matt looked at her and said something to the effect of, "Her girlfriend saw how tired we were, and do you know she continued getting dressed to go clubbing with her friends? If she was so devoted, she would have realised that two tired people and a baby could have been a recipe for disaster and a safety hazard. I guess partying was more important." Our counsellor asked him, "Did you ask her to stay or tell her that you were tired?" His retort was, "I should not have to ask their other "parent" to help out. That should be a given. You see something needs to be done. Say the dishes. Do you wait until someone asks you to do them, or do you just do it yourself?" Her response, "I do what needs to be done without being prompted." Matt said, "I rest my case."

I am going to sleep on my decision, but I think it is what is for the best. I am going to finish watching "2 Broke Girls" and go to sleep. Today is a 10 AM day, so I can sleep a little bit later. I am still going to have breakfast with my children like I do every day. I missed the bedtime ritual, but I did talk to them on Skype before bedtime. Good-night.

Ry

 

[BrigidsDaughter]

Our counsellor asked him, "Did you ask her to stay or tell her that you were tired?" His retort was, "I should not have to ask their other "parent" to help out. That should be a given. You see something needs to be done. Say the dishes. Do you wait until someone asks you to do them, or do you just do it yourself?" Her response, "I do what needs to be done without being prompted." Matt said, "I rest my case."

I'm trying to think of a nice way to say this, but yes, in my experience, you should ask the other parent to help out. I've never had the experience, either growing up, or as a parent myself, where it was completely expected that the other parent would just drop all of their plans to help out. My husband was military, I worked and went to school. At one point, we were on completely opposite shifts. He left for post at 5am, I got home at 7am. Our room mates slept in the room down the hall from our son until after I got home. (They didn't even wake up for tornado sirens). When I got home, I'd make breakfast, wake the toddler, feed and play with him, clean house, maybe nap for 2 hours with him, then wake up and play with him, make dinner, before the hubby got home. Then, I'd ask if we could squeak in some family time before the toddler went to bed. Sometimes hubby said yes, sometimes he had game night with his friends. Toddler would get bathed and put to bed and I'd catch another 2-3 hour nap before I had to walk to work.

Not saying that it's a bad thing that Matt wants to contribute more, just saying that contrary to his belief, that isn't how it's generally done. And just expecting someone to drop everything because someone is tired, doesn't mean they should. He should have asked, just like he would ask if you'd mind picking something up at the store on the way home from work. It's common courtesy. Gesh, I get that you made mistakes, but the biggest mistake I've seen in here is holding people to unfair expectations all around; and I say unfair because not a single one of you communicated your expectations clearly and are all feeling butt hurt (pardon my language) that they didn't do what you expected them to.

And it wasn't dangerous to leave the two of you home tired, with a baby. . . that's just ridiculous. Parents have been sleep deprived for thousands of years, with and without help, and that is a perfectly normal and safe environment for children to be around. Otherwise the human race would have died out long ago.

 

[Scissors]

I would love to hear your thoughts.

All right.

Your therapist is an amateur. Here is why.

Our counsellor asked him, "Did you ask her to stay or tell her that you were tired?"

Considering Matt's apparent inability to communicate effectively, asking this is the classic way to try to get someone to realize the two sane options here, "did you communicate with her in x way or did you communicate with her in y way?" Either way, the answer SHOULD have been either, "yes, I communicated with her in X/Y way" or "huh, you're right, I didn't communicate with her" (which is the crux of BrigidsDaughter's post). Instead:

His retort was, "I should not have to ask their other "parent" to help out. That should be a given. You see something needs to be done. Say the dishes. Do you wait until someone asks you to do them, or do you just do it yourself?"

He deflects with a (his usual customary?) classic avoidance statement, which your therapist should be smart enough to pick up on and point out. She completely missed it, and then...

Her response, "I do what needs to be done without being prompted."

This is where, pardon me, everything went down the shitter. I immediately lost respect for this "professional" you have (perhaps blindly out of a place of dark emotional distress) entrusted your mental health to. Rule number one of Marital Fight Club is you don't talk about Marital Fight Club. She broke rules number two AND three: you don't take sides, and you never interject your own values/morals into the situations of others.

No wonder you are feeling ganged up on, because you are. No wonder Matt continues to go, because he is constantly subtly validated for his actions. Have you considered that one of the very behaviors which would serve everyone best to eradicate (Matt's uncommunicativeness) is actually being perpetuated by the person who is supposed to nudge him into modifying it? This is why you don't break rule number two.

By breaking rule number three she did one destructive thing (and one other potentially destructive thing). The first is by agreeing with Matt's handling of the situation she forfeited her objectivity as a therapist and became "the swing vote" - a mere pawn to be used and convinced by whoever has the more compelling argument (which, like BrigidsDaughter, I don't agree Matt was in the right in that situation). If you want someone to agree with you, any bum off the street or the internet will suffice. That's not the point of a therapist. The second thing is now, if there are future fundamental disagreements between you two, she has set up this dynamic where she has already "cast her vote for who gets booted off the island", so to speak. She is now personally vested to "win". Even if she might agree with you on principle in the future and disagree with Matt, the power of previous alliances is a profound, influential one. A therapist that can be swayed so easily and fall into the very trap she set (and indeed, should have been trained not to fall into) is not one who is self-aware enough to see how her actions cause these small shifts in power. Ry, you can only lose.

If that conversation with your therapist is one of the major things that led you to this conclusion about how to handle things with Si, namely cutting her out of your children's lives, I urge you to reflect. Perhaps even, examine future sessions critically.

 

[InfinitePossibility]

I feel for all of you. I feel for Matt, for you, for Si and for your children.

You are the one communicating here and what I see is a constant flip flopping of decisions. Not long ago (a week or so, I think) you'd decided to cut Si out of the kid's lives. Then you revised that decision. Matt was going to see a therapist about his parental alienation thingy. Then you were exhausted, had a day off work and now you're back to cutting Si out of the children's lives.

This decision was not made in haste. I remained neutral and kept my personal feelings out of it.

This is simply not true. Even if you'd been thinking about nothing but that decision since you and Si split up, it would still have been made in haste. Working through changes takes longer than a few weeks no matter what they are.

You cannot remain neutral in this. You more than anybody. You are making decisions that affect your husband, the woman you were in love with for over decade and the children that you gave birth to. You cannot be neutral and if you feel like you are being, you are kidding yourself on.

Plus, you've written very clearly that what you want is a peaceful home life so that you can continue working very long hours without becoming overly stressed. So even without your emotional involvement with the others, your own interests drive you to seek the solution that you believe will give you the most peace in the shortest period of time.

Is it possible for you to take annual leave from work for a few weeks or get your GP to sign you off for a while to give you time and space to think, to see different counselors and to adjust to the new reality of your life?

I have found my work helpful during the stress and loss of the last few years of my life. But - I have been dealing with illness and death rather than break ups and resentments and turmoil in my home. And - my job is much lower stress and has much shorter hours than yours does so it doesn't stop me sleeping or add to the tumult in any way.

I worry that simply in terms of hours out of the house and tiredness your work isn't helping in attempts to deal with Matt's ongoing resentment and you and Si's breakup. So maybe a break from dealing with work would help you deal more easily with the challenges in your home life.

IP

 

[monkeystyle]

Our counsellor asked him, "Did you ask her to stay or tell her that you were tired?" His retort was, "I should not have to ask their other "parent" to help out. That should be a given. You see something needs to be done. Say the dishes. Do you wait until someone asks you to do them, or do you just do it yourself?" Her response, "I do what needs to be done without being prompted." Matt said, "I rest my case."

I'm trying to think of a nice way to say this, but yes, in my experience, you should ask the other parent to help out. I've never had the experience, either growing up, or as a parent myself, where it was completely expected that the other parent would just drop all of their plans to help out. My husband was military, I worked and went to school. At one point, we were on completely opposite shifts. He left for post at 5am, I got home at 7am. Our room mates slept in the room down the hall from our son until after I got home. (They didn't even wake up for tornado sirens). When I got home, I'd make breakfast, wake the toddler, feed and play with him, clean house, maybe nap for 2 hours with him, then wake up and play with him, make dinner, before the hubby got home. Then, I'd ask if we could squeak in some family time before the toddler went to bed. Sometimes hubby said yes, sometimes he had game night with his friends. Toddler would get bathed and put to bed and I'd catch another 2-3 hour nap before I had to walk to work.

Not saying that it's a bad thing that Matt wants to contribute more, just saying that contrary to his belief, that isn't how it's generally done. And just expecting someone to drop everything because someone is tired, doesn't mean they should. He should have asked, just like he would ask if you'd mind picking something up at the store on the way home from work. It's common courtesy. Gesh, I get that you made mistakes, but the biggest mistake I've seen in here is holding people to unfair expectations all around; and I say unfair because not a single one of you communicated your expectations clearly and are all feeling butt hurt (pardon my language) that they didn't do what you expected them to.

And it wasn't dangerous to leave the two of you home tired, with a baby. . . that's just ridiculous. Parents have been sleep deprived for thousands of years, with and without help, and that is a perfectly normal and safe environment for children to be around. Otherwise the human race would have died out long ago.

I'm pretty sure that was one example only, but if bidden her husband would probably have others. My assumption is Matt thinks that she isn't actually a parent at all, and that presence or proximity in the house does not make her one. Sacrifice on some level FOR the family makes her part of it, not just existence around them. In their case, the relationship with Ry was why Si was there in the first place, and relationships with the children happened because of the close quarters.

Which to most people in the world of monogamy makes Si either a good friend, or a pseudo stepparent. But not responsible for them. Which she obviously isn't, either legally, or via any agreement with Matt and Ry that made her one in some genuine way.

 

[FullofLove1052]

I'm pretty sure that was one example only, but if bidden her husband would probably have others. My assumption is Matt thinks that she isn't actually a parent at all, and that presence or proximity in the house does not make her one. Sacrifice on some level FOR the family makes her part of it, not just existence around them. In their case, the relationship with Ry was why Si was there in the first place, and relationships with the children happened because of the close quarters.

Which to most people in the world of monogamy makes Si either a good friend, or a pseudo stepparent. But not responsible for them. Which she obviously isn't, either legally, or via any agreement with Matt and Ry that made her one in some genuine way.

One example is correct. That is no assumption. He does not think she is a parent or even remotely behaves like one, and in turn, he does not treat her like one. You hit the nail on the head.

 

[FullofLove1052]

Our counsellor asked him, "Did you ask her to stay or tell her that you were tired?" His retort was, "I should not have to ask their other "parent" to help out. That should be a given. You see something needs to be done. Say the dishes. Do you wait until someone asks you to do them, or do you just do it yourself?" Her response, "I do what needs to be done without being prompted." Matt said, "I rest my case."

I'm trying to think of a nice way to say this, but yes, in my experience, you should ask the other parent to help out. I've never had the experience, either growing up, or as a parent myself, where it was completely expected that the other parent would just drop all of their plans to help out. My husband was military, I worked and went to school. At one point, we were on completely opposite shifts. He left for post at 5am, I got home at 7am. Our room mates slept in the room down the hall from our son until after I got home. (They didn't even wake up for tornado sirens). When I got home, I'd make breakfast, wake the toddler, feed and play with him, clean house, maybe nap for 2 hours with him, then wake up and play with him, make dinner, before the hubby got home. Then, I'd ask if we could squeak in some family time before the toddler went to bed. Sometimes hubby said yes, sometimes he had game night with his friends. Toddler would get bathed and put to bed and I'd catch another 2-3 hour nap before I had to walk to work.

Not saying that it's a bad thing that Matt wants to contribute more, just saying that contrary to his belief, that isn't how it's generally done. And just expecting someone to drop everything because someone is tired, doesn't mean they should. He should have asked, just like he would ask if you'd mind picking something up at the store on the way home from work. It's common courtesy. Gesh, I get that you made mistakes, but the biggest mistake I've seen in here is holding people to unfair expectations all around; and I say unfair because not a single one of you communicated your expectations clearly and are all feeling butt hurt (pardon my language) that they didn't do what you expected them to.

And it wasn't dangerous to leave the two of you home tired, with a baby. . . that's just ridiculous. Parents have been sleep deprived for thousands of years, with and without help, and that is a perfectly normal and safe environment for children to be around. Otherwise the human race would have died out long ago.

I would agree with that, but that tell that to the mothers who have accidentally rolled over and suffocated their children, when extremely tired. I sleep incredibly hard, and I never felt comfortable co-sleeping with a baby.

I just read about a case where the mother fell asleep for 10 hours with a 4 month old and a toddler in the house. When she finally woke up both children were dead. There is an inquest going on right now. The father says the mum was never depressed, but suffered from anemia and extreme exhaustion. Accidents happen, so I understand.

I am not butt hurt over anything. I never asked anyone to a do anything for me. I brought my children into this world, and it is my responsibility to take care of them. Expecting anyone to do anything is ridiculous. Implied, explicitly stated, or any other way.

 

[FullofLove1052]

I feel for all of you. I feel for Matt, for you, for Si and for your children.

You are the one communicating here and what I see is a constant flip flopping of decisions. Not long ago (a week or so, I think) you'd decided to cut Si out of the kid's lives. Then you revised that decision. Matt was going to see a therapist about his parental alienation thingy. Then you were exhausted, had a day off work and now you're back to cutting Si out of the children's lives.



This is simply not true. Even if you'd been thinking about nothing but that decision since you and Si split up, it would still have been made in haste. Working through changes takes longer than a few weeks no matter what they are.

You cannot remain neutral in this. You more than anybody. You are making decisions that affect your husband, the woman you were in love with for over decade and the children that you gave birth to. You cannot be neutral and if you feel like you are being, you are kidding yourself on.

Plus, you've written very clearly that what you want is a peaceful home life so that you can continue working very long hours without becoming overly stressed. So even without your emotional involvement with the others, your own interests drive you to seek the solution that you believe will give you the most peace in the shortest period of time.

Is it possible for you to take annual leave from work for a few weeks or get your GP to sign you off for a while to give you time and space to think, to see different counselors and to adjust to the new reality of your life?

I have found my work helpful during the stress and loss of the last few years of my life. But - I have been dealing with illness and death rather than break ups and resentments and turmoil in my home. And - my job is much lower stress and has much shorter hours than yours does so it doesn't stop me sleeping or add to the tumult in any way.

I worry that simply in terms of hours out of the house and tiredness your work isn't helping in attempts to deal with Matt's ongoing resentment and you and Si's breakup. So maybe a break from dealing with work would help you deal more easily with the challenges in your home life.

IP

The flipping only happened because I was urged to reconsider. I made up my mind, and I was my firm in my decision. According to some, that was not fair to Si or my children. Seriously, my attitude at this point is whatever.

I am not taking off work unless it is just mandatory like my children. I will not let this situation interfere with something I love. My job does not stress me out that much. Long hours? Yes. Every health professional goes through phases of, "Why am I doing this?" It is rewarding when it is all said and done. I beat all the odds, and despite getting tired from time to time, I am proud of myself. I am doing what I love and what I am passionate about. It makes me happy.

Yesterday was a one-time deal. I am back at work today. If I take time off, that is not going to help me. It is not going to make me feel better, think any clearer, or lessen Matt's resentment. I cannot control another person's actions or emotions. I can only control mine. I do not want to see any more counsellors. I barely want to see the one we have now, and that is just once a week. It is nothing against her, but I am tired of the whole process. Tomorrow marks nine weeks of counselling and nine weeks since everything fell apart.

Yes, my husband did talk to a therapist who specialises in PA. It did not change his attitude one bit. If anything it further upset him because that implies that he even has to acknowledge her as a parent. He does not view her as a parent because he does not think she has earned it, so it went in one ear and out of the other one. Earning by association or being in close proximity is not a valid enough argument to warrant being granted parental rights to him. For every argument, he has a counterargument, that usually has valid and concise points. He asks questions that no one has the answers to.

I want peace. Everyone should want that in some form.

 

[SNeacail]

I do not want to see any more counsellors. I barely want to see the one we have now, and that is just once a week. It is nothing against her, but I am tired of the whole process. Tomorrow marks nine weeks of counselling and nine weeks since everything fell apart.

My husband and I went for over a year and the ONLY reason we stopped was because we couldn't afford it anymore. I remember feeling like things were hopeless when after 3 months we were still struggling and needing so much help. We were able to scale it back to twice a month and then once a month over time. I really wish we could go at least once a month still, especially when we start falling back into old habits. Sometimes you just have to get back to everyday life for a while.

I agree with a previous poster, that you guys may not have the "right" fit in a therapist. I understand how changing at this stage could be too overwhelming a task, but it might be worth searching for a better fit after your move. Living 20+ years with crappy communication, it takes time to change bad habits and that third party is extremely helpful.

 

[FullofLove1052]

My husband and I went for over a year and the ONLY reason we stopped was because we couldn't afford it anymore. I remember feeling like things were hopeless when after 3 months we were still struggling and needing so much help. We were able to scale it back to twice a month and then once a month over time. I really wish we could go at least once a month still, especially when we start falling back into old habits. Sometimes you just have to get back to everyday life for a while.

I agree with a previous poster, that you guys may not have the "right" fit in a therapist. I understand how changing at this stage could be too overwhelming a task, but it might be worth searching for a better fit after your move. Living 20+ years with crappy communication, it takes time to change bad habits and that third party is extremely helpful.

She is excellent, but I am just like falling out of like with it. It is not her. It is me. It feels hopeless and pointless. I could be doing so many other things with that time. I see changes, but I am just not into this. I am all too independent, and I hate relying on a third person to help fix my marriage. In some ways, it makes me feel like a failure and brings up feelings that are making me second guess everything. As a result, I feel sad from time to time. I am not even equipped to deal with a marriage. Dear Jesus. What else am I going to bomb at? We have a counselling session today, and I have mere hours to change my attitude or nothing that is said today will even sink in. I could have the best therapist in the world, and I would still just not be into it.